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Pretty sure I said Greninja might be top tier a while ago, I predicted it before it was cool.
He already is in Top 8.
Many Lucina players consider Greninja their worst matchup, so that's something.
So -1? What kind of numbers are we talking? How does Greninja do against other top and high tiers?
Probably -1, yeah. Pichu seems pretty Even.
, he can have a hard time keeping up with damage output sometimes. His damage output is really good, but theirs is simply absurd. It's probably just a tier behind them though, more along the lines of . has been sus, but I still feel confident that it's an even MU. Hopefully Stroder knows the MU better than Lea did.
to be far most of the cast that is either rushdown or combo heavy vs snake is just bad. the bayo discord sees snake as the second worst mu in the game for her (pichu is the worst). grenade messes with bayo too much. i'd guess it messes up greninja as well.He goes even with
Greninja's record against
When it comes to top tier match up spread, Greninja is mainly a swordsman slayer, especially slower swordsman like Marcina. He goes about even with everyone else.
You mean "most" recoveries, right? By far easiest spike in the game. The ability to turn games around or put yourself at a huge advantage out of just one exchange at the ledge is pretty monumental.
I don't think Squirtle is a liability. His combo ability can rack up so much on heavies and fastfallers, and on some characters it's basically a free 50% just by winning an exchange with Squirtle. I mean, I agree that you can get more mileage from solo Ivysaur than you can any of the other Pokemon, considering the stupid confirms he has. Maybe some matchups would benefit more from solo Ivysaur, but knowing Squirtle adds a lot of depth to your game. His low profile alone makes things hard for some characters.
I haven't had a chance to watch that whole video yet because I don't want to burn too much data, but does that one clip really repesent PT match ups as a whole? Luigi is a character with average mobility and poor range, which makes him weak to disjoints.
I'm not sure how this clip at all supports your argument. Most smash attacks in this game are niche by nature and Ivysaur's jab/tilts aren't that great. The part of the match you clipped primarily focuses on Ivysaur playing pressing its advantage against a character with a poor disadvantage state, not too dissimilar from how Fox relies on a small set of moves in advantage state. It's a bit strange to call him out for not using smashes in that clip in particular when he used fsmash to great effect in the set.
This is a very very specific instance that cannot speak for PT consistently. Too narrow.
Kind reminder that Squirtle is just a tiny, lighter version of Diddy without a Banana and without kill confirms, or at least not as easy as Diddy's. I still think Diddy vs Ike is still in Diddy's advantage, and he does well against all the other swordsmen as well, even Cloud whom he struggled against greatly in Smash 4 (worst matchup by far). I also think Diddy can handle Fox and Pichu. But he struggles against the likes of Olimar, Snake and Inkling. I also think he beats Lucina and Marth, because they are rather slow and easily punishable by the Banana.
Quoting this because Salem is playing Snake now.
I don't understand the controversy... The general consensus around here isStroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.
Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.
's somewhere around & . High or top tier, it's just a little too early to tell with his lower usage.
he looks better right now surely at this point. mvd was eating a lot of players that had never faced snakes before. they werent used to tracking the mine and got hit by a lot of uptilts. mvd got lit up by awestin and other more veteran players tho.
Greninja's been tearing up Japan since release and the West is catching up. When Sakurai starts wielding the nerf bat I doubt Gren will be much safer than Wolf and friends. That said, he’s clearly not a problem as such. His results aren’t as strong as others and he takes appropriate skill to use. He’s not as difficult to use as people think IMO but certainly harder than the other top tiers save the execution requirements of Peach, he doesn’t have brainless hitboxes and buttons with which you can plough through 90% of MUs. A character who rewards skill whilst retaining clear weaknesses, somewhat akin to Melee Fox, is the best kind of top tier to have.
There’s no community MU chart or even top player MU charts to go by but we can form some ideas based on observations in bracket and general consensus.
I don't understand how people are still underrating Pokemon Trainer. This character is getting results. Consistent top 8/16s in some of the biggest tournaments (Wishes did well at Frostbite, Pandarian at Nimbus) and even more consistent wins in the local scene (see the Tourney Results thread). This character is good and is only going to get better as time goes on. People are going to optimize match-ups better and utilize the 3 Pokemon together in a more fluid manner.
in both disadvantage and advantage. In his matches with Pandarian and especially Stroder, he Quick Attack not only allowed him to zone break supremely well and disrupt their game plan, but it allowed him to keep his opponents in disadvantage far longer than otherwise. Even whenever Stroder and Pandarian managed to avoid ESAM’s aerials off stage, they often get knicked by Quick Attack as they attempted to recover or get off ledge. This not only allowed ESAM to pressure them longer but made it far safer too as he could pressure with his aerials and Thunder and if he missed, he could Quick Attack into them before returning to stage to put himself in a safe spot while ensuring his opponent doesn’t get to reset Neutral all the same. does, the greater range makes it much easier to stuff approaches and push his opponents to ledge and he made very good use of it against Pandarian. Speaking of which it humorously seems that the mascot of Pokémon can go the distance against . Pikachu has the small size, nimbleness, and frame data to stay on pace with , the zone breaking abilities and projectile needed to keep from controlling neutral, and the speedy buttons needed to work around ‘s range and abuse his disadvantage well. And Pikachu seemed more than capable of esgeguarding all of them. Pandarian never really was able to relax with any one Pokémon. He had to constantly switch it up to Lee ESAM from getting his rythum down and even then ESAM called out a lot the switches hard. matchup is looking better and better for Pikachu and the mouse is really solidifying itself as one of the premier zonebreakers. 
Something that helped for ESAM against Ally, is that ESAM knows both the Ally and Snake matchup very well. He fought Ally (as well as his Snake in Brawl) many times, while having one of the best Snakes in the world at his side to practice with (MVD).Speaking of ESAM can I just say that is performance yesterday was simply stellar? Quite a nice makeup after his less than stellar Frostbite performance and if not for an unfortunate off stage flub he stood a good chance of taking the whole thing.
What I especially appreciated though was the brilliant showcase of just how Quick Attack does for
I also loved his usage of advancing D Tilts in those sets. While Pikachu’s D Tilt doesn’t have the combo to imagination properties that
Plus with now a decisive win on Salem as well as Ally, the
Overall great performance from him. His sets really highlighted a lot of the underrated advantages he has over his more explosive and popular pre evolution right now.
Which Pokemon is the "MVP" in any given match (ie the one that wins neutral most easily) tends to either be Squirtle against heavy zoners, or Ivy against those lacking options for ranged combat. In both cases they use the Pokemon next in line to maximise advantage (Ivy's juggling is potent against those zoners that usually have slower air movement, and Zard's speed helps keep opponents from resetting due to Ivy's slowness). What Zard lacks in his ability to soundly win neutral he makes up for by being the glue holding the other two together, covering their shared weaknesses in revovery and sometimes closing stocks.
Well for one thing they don’t work on every character. For the ones they do work on, they seem somewhat inconsistent. I feel like VoiD of all people would be able to pull them off nearly 100% of the time if they were truly consistent, considering how good he was with perfect pivot Sheik combos in Smash 4.
iirc Lightning Loops aren't real. SDI up prevents repetitions past the first, forcing you to go for a normal extension instead.
needs a 2nd character to succeed, Scizor gets 13th at nimbus with solo Link. Although I do think Link players should have someone for his bad MUs. Losing Salem was a big blow to Link, not that I blame Salem. Snake outclasses Link. Similarly Tweek not going YL sucks for his results (he did partially use YL to win Frostbite doubles). Currently none of the Links have real top player representation. I'm a little surprised Salem didn't choose Greninja, considering he won a tournament with him in SSB4. is a character who could really break out if a top player picked him up. PT's getting results and IMO YL's better than them. Currently players like Zan (Toomanycooks) and Skittles are putting in good work but don't measure up to top player tallant.
Stroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.
Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.
talk, I wanted to bring up my thoughts on the three Pokemon () and just share my thoughts on them. is probably the best of the three. His ground speed is pretty average as is his air speed but his air acceleration is very good and his initial dash is a bit above average. feels similar to to me. He has no glaring weaknesses, but he struggles to kill and lacks range on some of his attacks, but neither of these issues are extremely hard to work around. Other than those two minor weaknesses, excels (or at least passes) in just about every other area. Recovery, comboing, edgeguarding, juggling, having what is probably top 5 frame data in Smash Ultimate (along with ) , having a small hurtbox, and being hard to combo, all make me think that he's a top tier. His strengths may not be as overwhelming as most of the other top and high tiers like , but his lack of glaring weaknesses make him stand out amidst top and high tier fighters like who's weaknesses are much more glaring and exploitable. has been being overrated since E3 and I think people are only starting to realize this. I don't think is trash, or even that she's not high tier, I just think that her weaknesses were being completely ignored and people have just started noticing them. For one, her recovery is among the worst in the game, as she is entirely reliant on a tether grab. It also doesn't hep that her air speed and jump height aren't very good either. Secondly, as I just mentioned, is very slow in terms of movement speed (and frame data in some cases). This makes Ivysaur easy to punish if she messes up, something that doesn't struggle with. However, 's strengths are overwhelming in some cases. She has some very good on and offstage edgeguarding options, impressive range, good kill potential, can deal well with camping, and has better survivability than . I believe that Ivysaur is a decent high tier character. is kind of a weird character and opinions on him in Smash Ultimate seem to be varying a bit more than they were in Smash 4. His ground speed and initial dash are both very impressive, being the best of the three Pokemon and while his air speed is poor, his multiple jumps along with his far traveling recovery help to have the best recovery of the three as well. However, one flaw that I've noticed that has is that his aerials seem to have weird hitboxes, causing them to miss in a lot of situations where they shouldn't (especially on grounded opponents) with the most notable example being f-air. Another issue that he has is while he has a lot of good attacks individually, his moveset doesn't flow like a cohesive moveset very well, not unlike (but still better than) . is also easy to juggle and combo like most super-heavyweights which means that characters like can rack up damage on him pretty quickly. However, he still possess his impressive range on some of his grounded attacks from Smash 4 allowing him to outspace characters like . To me seems like a niche low mid tier or high low tier pick who may have a few decent matchups like , but he won't be any higher due to his very bad matchups against characters such as among others.
No way is Squirtle a top tier on his own. Incredibly frame data, great aerials, throws and dash attack, and a small frame all make him very potent at low to mid percents. However when you start getting to higher percents that all starts to fall apart.
may have struggled to kill, but she still had a 50-50 and Bouncing Fish to cover that weakness up. All Squirtle has is slow, short ranged Smash Attacks. Even offstage he struggles to kill unless his opponent has really bad recovery as his attacks are weak enough that many opponents will still make it back. also had a great projectile and moved much more quickly. is more like but without 's raw power. Amazing combos and strings, average mobility offset by fantastic air acceleration, short range and dies to a sneeze. But Pichu has zero issues killing, onstage or offstage. Squirt is still really good but falls apart without his other Pokemon friends to back him up. I'd say mid tier at best on his own, but thankfully he doesn't have to play on his own.
's kill moves are /. 's recovery is . And 's disadvantage state is (withdraw). 's whole is greater than his parts.
As someone wh
Agreed. With all three Pokemon being utilized he's one of the best characters in the game. Squirtle just barely scrapes the end of top tier I think and Pokemon Trainer is probably near the high middle part of top tier.
