Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Exploitable recovery is a weakness, but that simply isn't enough of a reason to make a character underwhelming. Look at characters like Wolf, Ike, Chrom, and Roy, who all have exploitable recoveries, but make up for it due to having powerful traits in other areas. Now, I'm not claiming Corrin to be on these character's power level (except for Ike since I find the two to be the most comparable), but he does have some pretty powerful tools in his kit, specifically Nair, and most of his other moves like Fair, F-Tilt, and down-tilt certainly aren't bad.

In terms of disadvantage, Corrin is a bit lacking, but certainly not hopeless since Nair can cover a good deal of his lower body when he's landing. I'd say his Nair in disadvantage is better than Ike's since it comes out faster, although their disadvantage states overall are probably about the same.

Corrin Neutral, though linear, isn't bad simply due to Nair having such good range and damage potential, similar to Ike. I'll say that Ike's neutral is better because of his better airspeed and grab, but Corrin still has the main tool that makes Ike so threatening and oppressive. Like Ike, he can capitalize on his Nair with similar 50-50s / confirms into Up-Air, Fair, and even neutral B at certain percentages. Even at the highest percentages, Nair does a good at setting up for an Up-Air or Back-Air, so I'd argue killing isn't too difficult either, even if Corrin lacks a spammable kill option that other characters like Wolf have.

The main thing, however, is that Corrin is too slow to take advantage of his attack's hitboxes. His n-air is good, but not as great as you described it. Hitboxes on the move is a little finicky (or at least I found it to be), and it doesn't have the reach and utility Ike's nair has. Corrin's lackluster mobility also really harms what could be a great neutral option, as well as approaching with the move being predictable.

Corrin's KO power is rather inconsistent. You can potentially net a solid stock off the opponent with a KO move in some matchups, but in others, KO'ing the opponent can be a chore to do.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I personally find it both ironic and funny that both and went from being the best FE swordies in Smash4 to being middle of the pack and potentially the worst FE character.
And speaking about I find it funny how his clones end up outclassing him despite how a lot of things about Ultimate practically scream him being top tier yet again.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I personally find it both ironic and funny that both and went from being the best FE swordies in Smash4 to being middle of the pack and potentially the worst FE character.
And speaking about I find it funny how his clones end up outclassing him despite how a lot of things about Ultimate practically scream him being top tier yet again.

Marth is at the high, maybe top tiered areas. It is that players are simply picking up the easier-to-play, but overall more effective version in Lucina, which is why Marth isn't seen very much. The two characters are very identical in moveset and physics however.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

/ isnt brought up too often, but I think ol Robin may be tied or worse than Corrin too. He/She also got unecessarily, overly-nerfed from Smash 4 from what I have heard, only Robin was not considered all to amazing then to begin with, like what , mid-tier at most then?.

One thing was signifigantly reduced histun from arcfire right? I mean umm, ok why?

 

[TumblrFamous]

His air game is not all that great. All of his aerials, aside from f-air, have somewhat awkward hitbox placements, or made to not be much of an approaching tool. It is certainty better than in SSB4 (having a proper up air hitbox is great), but still not too good, especially relative to the cast. PK Fire is a good move, but it isn't the best move for zoning, mostly because of the move's frame data. PK Freeze is rewarding to hit, and can be devastating when it does hit. Good luck actually landing the move against a good player though.

Although I do think lowly of Lucas atm, you might be on to something about his matchup against the rats. His magnet and tether attack helps out the matchup quite a bit.

Agreed. Honestly his zair in 4 was one of my favorite poking tools on him, and its reduced range is pitiful. Add that to the baffling change they made to Nair where it just ends up throwing the opponent anywhere, his down throw combo getting ripped apart, and his same problems from 4 (namely his inability to land or approach well), makes him easily oppressed by faster characters like Wolf, Fox, or Lucina.

Edit: his landing is actually worse now, since PK Magnet used to be able to help you stall in the air.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Marth is at the high, maybe top tiered areas. It is that players are simply picking up the easier-to-play, but overall more effective version in Lucina, which is why Marth isn't seen very much. The two characters are very identical in moveset and physics however.

I mean, tier lists often have anything between 5-10 characters separating them. And matchup charts often have them in separate rates. I still can't quite decide how much it is Luci actually being better vs how much it is Marth's meta just taking longer to develop.

The biggest difference from smash 4 I can actually get is edgeguarding being more prominent in Ult and Luci being better at it. I imagine Marth players can adapt to the difference in mobility to still land tippers consistently enough for the damage racking to stay about the same as Luci's. Plus, damage racking being the same, tippers always threaten to kill earlier (besides edgeguarding).

 

[KamikazePotato]

Robin's character design is baffling. Hey, let's make a zoning character with the slowest run speed in the game, except his projectiles are bad and they run out. Nosferatu is a wasted Down B that takes up a slot that could be devoted to another, vital zoning tool. Levin Sword is actually pretty strong, but a lot of Robin's neutral (despite being designed as a zoning character) is about repeatedly throwing out Levin Sword melee aerials and hoping they hit, which gets really predictable and is un-synergizes with the fact that his Levin Sword also runs out.

 

[L9999]

BestNess made a matchup chart for Ness:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

You all look at the pretty numbers without realizing the logic behind grouping the MUs the way they are. Let's look more about this besides "BestNess is crazy" or "no way Ness has -3s."

-3s:

All these characters share something in common, the ability to outrange and keep Ness out more than any character.

Corn may be the most confusing because nobody plays her, but the reason why Corn is listed as -3 is because Ness cannot touch Corn, period. Sure, Corn got nerfed, but it went from an unwinnable MU to a possible MU.

Marcina are very similar in which they use their swords to not let Ness touch them and they can kill him offstage easily. It is a more interactive MU than Corn because Marcina doesn't have an autowin Nair, but when Gackt is getting wrecked by random Lucinas you know it is not good.

Shulk is a miserable MU for Ness. Shulk can rush him down with Speed Nair trains or just camp him super hard. Shulk destroys Ness offstage harder than Lucina.

Palu has high mobility and meaty hitboxes that deny Ness's. She also bodies him offstage. Unlike all the swordfighters Ness can't do much of anything to Palu offstage. Probably the most playable of these MUs because she doesn't have a sword, but if you think this isn't among Ness's worst MUs see no further than Dabuz VS FOW.

Megaman doesn't let Ness play, period. Doesn't let him approach all while racking up a ton of damage.

-2s:

Notice a trend? Large disjoints that can rush him down and or ability to camp him with large hitboxes and/or projectiles. What does Ness do against Peach aircamping and trillions of edgeguard options exactly? Or what does he do to approach Cloud and Ike without the risk of being severely punished by their huge hitboxes and juggles?

 

[MG_3989]

Even the worst characters in this game aren't agreed upon to have any -3s if only one or two, there is no way Ness has 6 of them, especially to characters like Palutena or Mega Man. While I do agree on a few things on here this looks hastily thrown together without much thought out into it. Totally respect Bestness as a player but this is just bad lol.

BestNess did it as a sub goal. He also said something like -3s are 35/65 in his eyes. Still a bad matchup chart in my eyes and I don’t wanna dominante the thread with Ness talk but this by no means makes him a mid tier. It’s one MU chart by one player

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm honestly not surprised that outside of generally bad characters like K. Rool and Little Mac, Ness gets hard countered by anyone that has a good counter.

 

[MG_3989]

I'm honestly not surprised that outside of generally bad characters like K. Rool and Little Mac, Ness gets hard countered by anyone that has a good counter.

Eh he doesn’t rely on PK Thunder to get on stage often tho. You’ll see most Ness players recovering with airdodges and using PKT as a last resort. I don’t think a counter is what troubles Ness. What troubles Ness are large disjoints. Personally I don’t think he has anything under a -1 (maybe Shulk is a -2) and I think he wins a lot more MUs than BestNess is saying he does. BestNess wouldn’t be playing the character if his MU chart was honestly that bad. You all know my opinion on where Ness ranks and that hasn’t changed by one shoddy MU chart coming from a player I respect. He also said -3s=35/65 which makes no sense but whatever. I think Ness is solidly top 15-25 and still do and obviously nobody has interest in arguing this because it’s beating a dead horse. We’ll see how things fall into place

We also haven’t seen enough high level data on all of these MUs yet. I personally don’t like the MU chart but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit and it highlights what Ness does struggle against. Also nobody wants to be playing their main up right now. Everybody underrates their main that isn’t named ESAM

 

[PK Bash]

BestNess' chart is pretty accurate.

Whilst I'm sure Ness players will argue over the finer points, every matchup he has losing is indeed losing, even matchups look about right, same with winning. It corresponds with where I placed a few of his high tier matchups last month so let it be known I'm not letting this chart drastically influence my own opinions.

But don't just take my word for it.

SlamSHADY, a high level Ness and definitely one of the best in the States (129th at Frostbite is not to be scoffed at, tied with most other notable Ness players who went) also put out a chart in the last week.
You can't deny that the overlap is uncanny.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SlamSHADYSSB/status/1101981660982247424

No matter how much you want to deny it, you cannot argue that BestNess is going to pretty much everything he can and by extension, has the best experience and probably the best judgement. Whilst he may have made the list on a whim, he has obviously been giving thought to all of these matchups, none of these placements will have come out of nowhere.

The loose pattern is Ness wins the matchup when PK Fire, Dash atk, FAir and BAir control those ranges adequately and safely and the opponent has insufficient or risky ways to challenge Ness offstage. The only one I'd seriously question myself is Mii Sword. I don't think Ness beats the 1332 output but hey I could just be wrong.

You should also keep in mind that BN and SlamSHADY put nothing in what I'd call a 3-7 mu, where you should really have a secondary for sure. According to BN, -3 is 35:65. Close but not quite.

This is the spread of a top 25 character who will not consistently top 8 or top 16 majors and certainly not at the hands of multiple players.

Whether or not you want to believe it, that is the plain honest truth. Ness is still a good character, don't let it offend you.

I'll talk about Lucas another time.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I agree that he loses most of what is listed in losing my main issue is the level at which he loses them. I don't care about Ness' tier placement ultimately it's meaningless and pointless discussion, I do think discussing matchups is relevant and benefits both characters. -3 even at 65:35 implies borderline near impossibility. Obviously even 9:1 isn't truly impossible when factoring in humans but the only MUs I see coming close to that level is Marthcina and Shulk.

Palutena does not just straight wall Ness out, she has more range than him and can play a good mid range game, she definitely can keep him airborne better and off stage is a lot better for her in recovering and edge guarding but she doesn't have an answer at long and close ranges. She can't freely throw out auto reticle or use explosive flame to make Ness fear anything at a range and in close range she gets straight smothered with hitboxes. You say watch FOW vs Dabuz and yeah FOW didn't do hot against Dabuz but then I also say it's one set, Dabuz is a top ten level player and FOW isn't and that FOW vs Edgar (Top Vegas Palu) exists and there is more footage of that than one Dabuz set.

Mega Man can be challenging, contesting pellets isn't trivial. But then you realize that PKF actives on projectiles and the pillar will destroy any incoming projectile, you can still absorb pellets but this time with a hitbox while still being able to come forward and combo off any attempt to use pellets approach, especially if your holding metal blade and now the mid range and transition game that MM dominated so well in this MU in 4 isn't as bad for Ness anymore. Ness doesn't mind being in his shield a lot either to deal with pellets because he has great OOS options. Ness has ways to actually get MM to approach him more than before (which was nearly never in S4). Obviously off stage isn't great for Ness but neither is it for MM when down smash exists. MM still wins this but not at that level.

In the effort of not letting this post get too long and being on mobile I don't want to touch on other MUs since I'm not able to just write two sentences to summarize a MU up and would rather it be quite wordy and lengthy but TL;DR, I agree he loses most of the MUs listed but not to those extents.

 

[N8than]

Megaman doesn't let Ness play, period. Doesn't let him approach all while racking up a ton of damage.

Can't you just use DJC PSI Magnet to either zone-break or back away from him while he's shoot pellets? Also everytime is offstage, you can just use dair and he dies. This might seem simplistic, and I know has the tornado that can juggle , but I honestly don't understand the reason behind the sentiment that "vs is 65:35." I think the matchup is actually 55:45 in 's favor.

 

[Heracr055]

Mega Man can mix up whatever projectile he throws at Ness, since Ness doesn't have one move to beat all 3 of pellets, Metal Blade and Leaf Shield. So it's not as simple as saying "I'll just Psi Magnet pellets and FSmash Metal Blade/Leaf Shield back, and that'll prevent Mega Man from his ideal strategy & force him to approach." Also saying that "just dair him whenever he's offstage and he dies" is not really a great argument for this (or almost any) MU.

 

[SwagGuy99]

/ isnt brought up too often, but I think ol Robin may be tied or worse than Corrin too. He/She also got unecessarily, overly-nerfed from Smash 4 from what I have heard, only Robin was not considered all to amazing then to begin with, like what , mid-tier at most then?.

One thing was signifigantly reduced histun from arcfire right? I mean umm, ok why?

I actually think Robin is one of the worst characters in the game. Outside of his recovery and n-air, they really didn't recieve a lot of buffs and they actually seem to have gotten quite a lot of nerfs and it doesn't help that the game's mechanics don't really do very much for them either.

 

[ARISTOS]

/ isnt brought up too often, but I think ol Robin may be tied or worse than Corrin too. He/She also got unecessarily, overly-nerfed from Smash 4 from what I have heard, only Robin was not considered all to amazing then to begin with, like what , mid-tier at most then?.

One thing was signifigantly reduced histun from arcfire right? I mean umm, ok why?

Corrin is way better than Robin.

works as a character and still has her spiderweb of threatening hitboxes, but the overall speed increase of the game hurts her because now more characters can get into ranges where they can actually punish her for throwing out a hitbox when they couldn't before. You'll find that the characters who still can't do this get reamed by the character, but it's a much smaller % of the cast. Pin is also much less dumb of a tool, and her reward has been cut in general, but her juggling ability is still pretty insane and on smaller stages she should do pretty well in advantage.

Uair is still an absolute beast of a move, insane button.

On the other hand Robin is a legit bottom 5 character, Arcfire/Elthunder/Levin Nair are better but don't make up for the fact that the character gets outranged, outbuttoned, and juggled insanely easily. Nothing has the oomph it should have given everything uses up a resource.

 

[Avokha]

/ isnt brought up too often, but I think ol Robin may be tied or worse than Corrin too. He/She also got unecessarily, overly-nerfed from Smash 4 from what I have heard, only Robin was not considered all to amazing then to begin with, like what , mid-tier at most then?.

One thing was signifigantly reduced histun from arcfire right? I mean umm, ok why?

Robin main here, just going to clear up some misconceptions about the character for you.

So what robin got between smash 4 and ultimate were tradeoff buffs, and the buffs in fact outnumber the nerfs, but they did change the characters gameplan somewhat. So the main changes that most people are aware of; the removal of 'checkmate' Robin's old dthrow to up air, a reduction to the time arcthunder locks opponents, which makes comboing off it much harder, and changing up b to last only 5 uses, previously 9 in smash 4, and starting games with bronze sword, having to wait 10 seconds into the game before Levin sword can be used like normal (not really a nerf in my eyes, just a weird way to showcase the new durability meter that we now have), the arcfire projectile (not pillar) being cancelled by most hitboxes, nosferatu being reduced to 3 uses from smash 4s 4 uses, and discarded items no longer having gross knockback, only really killing by themselves if sniping offstage opponents.

Now for the buffs; nair can now use Levin sword, which makes it one the largest and strongest sword nairs in the game, and retaining its completely horizontal knockback from smash 4, Arcthunder is now the most damaging thunder spell, dealing roughly 30% with 1v1 multiplier by itself and dealing roughly 2/3 shield damage, knockback buffs to both elthunder and thoron, making them both potential kill moves, an initial dash buff which makes a foxtrotting robin about the same running speed as ike, the arcfire pillar is now much harder to escape when it does hit (plus is now able to block almost every projectile in the game, even things like charge shot and shadow ball), which also make its use as a ledgetrapping tool even more deadly, elwind now being able to be angled, which enables more options for mixing up recoveries, thunder travels further, rapid jab is MUCH harder to escape and retains its kill power off the top, nosferatu respawning in 30 seconds, a whole 10 seconds less than smash 4 (40 seconds), and discarded items being converted into combo tools, with a kill confirm already being discovered in item throw to thoron.

Just wanted to inform you guys about the character so you can make an educated conclusion about them.

Robin's character design is baffling. Hey, let's make a zoning character with the slowest run speed in the game, except his projectiles are bad and they run out. Nosferatu is a wasted Down B that takes up a slot that could be devoted to another, vital zoning tool. Levin Sword is actually pretty strong, but a lot of Robin's neutral (despite being designed as a zoning character) is about repeatedly throwing out Levin Sword melee aerials and hoping they hit, which gets really predictable and is un-synergizes with the fact that his Levin Sword also runs out.

I can understand why people would believe robin is a zoning character, and he is very similar to one, but his gameplan does not align with that of a zoner. What Robin wants to do is find ways to restrict the opponents movement options and open them up to the option the robin wants to go for, whether it's close range damage/killing with sword moves, long range damage/killing with thunder spells, edguarding offstage or ledgetrapping with arcfire, or healing and conditioning with nosferatu. Robin is less zoner and more trapper in these regards.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Add that to the baffling change they made to Nair where it just ends up throwing the opponent anywhere,

Lucas's Nair isn't random, the 4th hit just sends the opponent left or right depending on which side of Lucas they end up on.

 

[Nobie]

Robin main here, just going to clear up some misconceptions about the character for you.

So what robin got between smash 4 and ultimate were tradeoff buffs, and the buffs in fact outnumber the nerfs, but they did change the characters gameplan somewhat. So the main changes that most people are aware of; the removal of 'checkmate' Robin's old dthrow to up air, a reduction to the time arcthunder locks opponents, which makes comboing off it much harder, and changing up b to last only 5 uses, previously 9 in smash 4, and starting games with bronze sword, having to wait 10 seconds into the game before Levin sword can be used like normal (not really a nerf in my eyes, just a weird way to showcase the new durability meter that we now have), the arcfire projectile (not pillar) being cancelled by most hitboxes, nosferatu being reduced to 3 uses from smash 4s 4 uses, and discarded items no longer having gross knockback, only really killing by themselves if sniping offstage opponents.

Now for the buffs; nair can now use Levin sword, which makes it one the largest and strongest sword nairs in the game, and retaining its completely horizontal knockback from smash 4, Arcthunder is now the most damaging thunder spell, dealing roughly 30% with 1v1 multiplier by itself and dealing roughly 2/3 shield damage, knockback buffs to both elthunder and thoron, making them both potential kill moves, an initial dash buff which makes a foxtrotting robin about the same running speed as ike, the arcfire pillar is now much harder to escape when it does hit (plus is now able to block almost every projectile in the game, even things like charge shot and shadow ball), which also make its use as a ledgetrapping tool even more deadly, elwind now being able to be angled, which enables more options for mixing up recoveries, thunder travels further, rabid jab is MUCH harder to escape and retains its kill power off the top, nosferatu respawning in 30 seconds, a whole 10 seconds less than smash 4 (40 seconds), and discarded items being converted into combo tools, with a kill confirm already being discovered in item throw to thoron.

Just wanted to inform you guys about the character so you can make an educated conclusion about them.
I can understand why people would believe robin is a zoning character, and he is very similar to one, but his gameplan does not align with that of a zoner. What Robin wants to do is find ways to restrict the opponents movement options and open them up to the option the robin wants to go for, whether it's close range damage/killing with sword moves, long range damage/killing with thunder spells, edguarding offstage or ledgetrapping with arcfire, or healing and conditioning with nosferatu. Robin is less zoner and more trapper in these regards.

So what you're saying is that you're supposed to play Robin like a tactician.

 

[Avokha]

So what you're saying is that you're supposed to play Robin like a tactician.

Exactly! Of course, this causes the character to be quite difficult to pick up and do immediately well with for more novice players, hence him being one the least played characters generally, but robin is very fun to play once you grasp his nuances.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Sorry to derail from Robin talk, but Stroder just posted his MU chart for Greninja

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No losing MUs..... Very, very interesting. I can't say I don't believe it because I'm having trouble thinking of anyone who can truly "out button" all of what Greninja has. It mostly falls down to the player, I guess?

 

[Foie]

Sorry to derail from Robin talk, but Stroder just posted his MU chart for Greninja

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No losing MUs..... Very, very interesting. I can't say I don't believe it because I'm having trouble thinking of anyone who can truly "out button" all of what Greninja has. It mostly falls down to the player, I guess?

Interesting... I find it hard to believe someone with no losing matchups would have less than 10 advantage matchups. This isn't really a matchup chart in the traditional sense, more of a "how hard it is to play against characters" chart.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I’ve also heard other people say Mega Man is difficult because he can make you shield more than you’d like

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Interesting... I find it hard to believe someone with no losing matchups would have less than 10 advantage matchups. This isn't really a matchup chart in the traditional sense, more of a "how hard it is to play against characters" chart.

That actually brings up an interesting question. (Well, interesting to me, at least.) If character A has a winning matchup against character B, but character A has to play absolutely perfect in order to realize this advantage, is it still a winning matchup? Or is there a point at which the skill/dexterity/consistency/whatever required outweighs the theoretical advantages? Especially if character B is comparatively simple to use.

 

[Avokha]

That actually brings up an interesting question. (Well, interesting to me, at least.) If character A has a winning matchup against character B, but character A has to play absolutely perfect in order to realize this advantage, is it still a winning matchup? Or is there a point at which the skill/dexterity/consistency/whatever required outweighs the theoretical advantages? Especially if character B is comparatively simple to use.

This is a really good question. Imo, I'd have to say that when discussing character matchups and viability overall, we need to assume the characters are playing optimally. Otherwise, we would be adding in player specific factors like matchup inexperience, nerves, overall skill level and the like. There is a fine line between character matchups and player matchups, and considering player based factors into character matchup, viability, or tier list discussions will only 'muddy the waters' if you will. Which makes it even more important to really understand what the character in question is capable of and what counterplay and potential counters to said counterplay are available.

Do your research, folks!

 

[bc1910]

Perfect play is not consistently achievable in real life. If a character has to put significantly more effort into a MU than another character it’s probably a losing MU in real terms. I don’t think Gren requires perfect play though. That argument would be more for someone like Sheik who probably has the tools to stuff/shut down most of the cast when played perfectly but just dies too easily and gets punished for mistakes in reality.

MU chart looks optimistic but to be fair, Greninja hasn’t had any bracket demons emerge besides maybe Snake who Stroder conceded could be slightly disadvantageous, nor does he have any widely agreed disadvantageous MUs. In froggo’s case it’s perfectly plausible that he’s held back from stellar results by his unpopularity and lack of top player representation (Lea, Stroder and Venia are great, but I’m talking Nairo/Tweek/Leo/Light level).

The only placement I disagree with is Mega Man, he should definitely be closer to the harder end of even/a potential disadvantage based on results. Everything else looks pretty reasonable though.

Stroder’s also spot on about Ike. He posted some additional thoughts on the MU describing how Ike is deceptively hard to punish. People in this thread (and Twitter) seem to think that Nair is a free whiff punish for Gren, but it has such little lag and so much range that it’s really not feasible most of the time if Ike isn’t just spamming it. It has nothing to do with online.

 

[meleebrawler]

Robin main here, just going to clear up some misconceptions about the character for you.

So what robin got between smash 4 and ultimate were tradeoff buffs, and the buffs in fact outnumber the nerfs, but they did change the characters gameplan somewhat. So the main changes that most people are aware of; the removal of 'checkmate' Robin's old dthrow to up air, a reduction to the time arcthunder locks opponents, which makes comboing off it much harder, and changing up b to last only 5 uses, previously 9 in smash 4, and starting games with bronze sword, having to wait 10 seconds into the game before Levin sword can be used like normal (not really a nerf in my eyes, just a weird way to showcase the new durability meter that we now have), the arcfire projectile (not pillar) being cancelled by most hitboxes, nosferatu being reduced to 3 uses from smash 4s 4 uses, and discarded items no longer having gross knockback, only really killing by themselves if sniping offstage opponents.

Now for the buffs; nair can now use Levin sword, which makes it one the largest and strongest sword nairs in the game, and retaining its completely horizontal knockback from smash 4, Arcthunder is now the most damaging thunder spell, dealing roughly 30% with 1v1 multiplier by itself and dealing roughly 2/3 shield damage, knockback buffs to both elthunder and thoron, making them both potential kill moves, an initial dash buff which makes a foxtrotting robin about the same running speed as ike, the arcfire pillar is now much harder to escape when it does hit (plus is now able to block almost every projectile in the game, even things like charge shot and shadow ball), which also make its use as a ledgetrapping tool even more deadly, elwind now being able to be angled, which enables more options for mixing up recoveries, thunder travels further, rapid jab is MUCH harder to escape and retains its kill power off the top, nosferatu respawning in 30 seconds, a whole 10 seconds less than smash 4 (40 seconds), and discarded items being converted into combo tools, with a kill confirm already being discovered in item throw to thoron.

Just wanted to inform you guys about the character so you can make an educated conclusion about them.
I can understand why people would believe robin is a zoning character, and he is very similar to one, but his gameplan does not align with that of a zoner. What Robin wants to do is find ways to restrict the opponents movement options and open them up to the option the robin wants to go for, whether it's close range damage/killing with sword moves, long range damage/killing with thunder spells, edguarding offstage or ledgetrapping with arcfire, or healing and conditioning with nosferatu. Robin is less zoner and more trapper in these regards.

Robin isn't the only one to cover ground faster by foxtrotting. So does K. Rool. How many others do?

 

[Rizen]

That actually brings up an interesting question. (Well, interesting to me, at least.) If character A has a winning matchup against character B, but character A has to play absolutely perfect in order to realize this advantage, is it still a winning matchup? Or is there a point at which the skill/dexterity/consistency/whatever required outweighs the theoretical advantages? Especially if character B is comparatively simple to use.

This describes several of 's high and top tier MUs. It boils down to risk vs reward. Take YL vs Wario for example. YL generally controls the MU better; he has projectiles to wall, a sword and Wario has no disjoint to space with. The issue is Wario's heavy and lives to 160%+ and he can kill with waft at 70%. YL has to win many more interactions. In this case I have the MU as a slight disadvantage for YL. The survival gap is too wide for YL to keep up.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Sorry to derail from Robin talk, but Stroder just posted his MU chart for Greninja

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No losing MUs..... Very, very interesting. I can't say I don't believe it because I'm having trouble thinking of anyone who can truly "out button" all of what Greninja has. It mostly falls down to the player, I guess?

I knew it was only a matter of time before Stroder's Greninja MU Chart was posted here so let me address a few of my thoughts on it...

First, Stroder does believe Greninja loses very few MUs if any as indicated by his chart, but he outlined these below as the most likely candidates for slight disadvantage. The only other character I'd personally add is MegaMan but honestly that one I'm still indecisive on and want to analyze more. Not to mention Stroder seems confident in his placement so I'll refrain judgment for now despite our set record vs the character not being pretty atm as well. Venia trades sets with KingArc in his region so maybe he has additional insight in regards to specific interactions. Despite using both characters, I haven't really looked too deeply into it myself:

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Second, I fully agree with every single character he listed as Greninja having a winning MU against. The only discrepancy between his opinion and mine comes from how hard we beat certain characters listed in the rows above even but then again, maybe not. One of my main concerns was Villager placement for example but Stroder also seems confident against him:

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Overall just a few minor things like that come to mind; all the characters (at least in regards to Greninja having a positive MU over them) are in the right place in my opinion:

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The main thing I see when I look at all the Even MUs he listed is the possibility of a select few showcasing to be better for Greninja as time goes on. I agree the large majority of them deserve to be there but I see a few outliers such as Rosalina who I think should definitely be advantageous for us due to how easy it is to kill luma and pressure her disadvantage state in this game and how she can't really keep us out well enough (and we were already good at doing all of this to an extent in S4 in general where she was also a stronger character).

I find it interesting how he dissected the Rob MU for example but still put him in 50/50 territory but the neutral interactions overall is probably what gives him some form of hesitation in outright listing as Slight Advantage. On the flip side, after seeing what Lea did to WaDi's Rob, I'm sure WaDi's not going to attempt that against a competent Greninja player again lol:

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Very interesting to see this chart however, this is the first real notable Greninja MU Chart we've had so far. At least from what I can recall. I have no idea what the Japanese Greninja players are thinking about the character's MU spread but it would be fun to see their thoughts in the future and where any differences may lie. Watching Lea vs MVD made it clear to me he was figuring out the MU on the fly and was slowly adapting to MVD's tricks but unfortunately didn't have enough time to figure out everything he needed to. Not too long after he took to Twitter to ask for advice. It's funny how the tables have turned, reminds me of how Duck Hunt Dog in S4 had a very positive record over Greninja but most of the best players were in Japan, now it's the other way around with Snake in NA:

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Speaking of Snake, MVD stands out from other opinions of the MU I've seen from players such as Ally and Lagnel (who believe it's even) and thinks Snake outright bops Greninja. Judging from his set record vs multiple Greninja players like Akashic, Lea, etc (although who may not have as much experience at the time as vice versa), I can see why he'd think so. It's definitely one of Gren's deeper MUs in regards to neutral optimization and learning curve on his end which ends up with him working harder but maybe the tools are still there to keep up so who knows how it will develop in the future:

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[Avokha]

Might be a bit late with this, but this data shows how many players present at frostbite represented each character.
The top 10 most played characters in order:

Top 12 least played characters in order:( 3rd place tie)( 6th place tie)( 8th place tie)

Discuss

 

[PK Bash]

View attachment 196459

Might be a bit late with this, but this data shows how many players present at frostbite represented each character. The top 10 most played characters in order:

Top 10 least played characters in order:( 3rd place tie)( 6th place tie)( 8th place tie)

Discuss

Where is Mii Swordfighter ? Do we know why he was omitted? No players or just forgot about him?
Either way it's a shame - that character is pretty good. I don't know what the American/Frostbite rules on Miis are? Presumably they're allowed every special.

I'd be interested to know the methodology behind this data collection as well.

It's interesting to compare the numbers for Samus/Dark Samus and Pit/Dark Pit particularly when Dark Samus/Dark Pit is often touted as objectively better as their counterpart. Character loyalists?

Also more Lucas players than Ness players lmao did not expect that.

 

[Avokha]

Where is Mii Swordfighter ? Do we know why he was omitted? No players or just forgot about him?
Either way it's a shame - that character is pretty good. I don't know what the American/Frostbite rules on Miis are? Presumably they're allowed every special.

I'd be interested to know the methodology behind this data collection as well.

It's interesting to compare the numbers for Samus/Dark Samus and Pit/Dark Pit particularly when Dark Samus/Dark Pit is often touted as objectively better as their counterpart. Character loyalists?

Also more Lucas players than Ness players lmao did not expect that.

From what I understand, this data was collected via a survey that took place during the event in which players who took part reported their main and their placing in the tournament. It is possible that some players did not take part in the survey (the most likely candidates being those who were eliminated early on and left immediately afterward). This may be why mii swordfighter is not present here.

 

[Deathcarter]

View attachment 196459

Might be a bit late with this, but this data shows how many players present at frostbite represented each character.
The top 10 most played characters in order:

Top 12 least played characters in order:( 3rd place tie)( 6th place tie)( 8th place tie)

Discuss

Dang, have downright pitiful representation quantity wise that's hugely disproportional to their generally agreed upon status as top/high tiers.

 

[Rizen]

View attachment 196459

Might be a bit late with this, but this data shows how many players present at frostbite represented each character.
The top 10 most played characters in order:

Top 12 least played characters in order:( 3rd place tie)( 6th place tie)( 8th place tie)

Discuss

This is very handy. It supports what I've been saying about TL being an old toy, as opposed to the other Links who are new. It also shows that despite good representation Link didn't do very well. He's the most popular of the three. YL had decent representation and also fell short. Of course none of the Links have top player rep.

Everyone and their mother has a Wolf/Lucina. Greninja and Wario are not well repped despite good placings, supporting that they're harder to master. No wonder PT's doing well, there are a lot of them.

Frostbite placings
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-23060439
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/post-23060696

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Everyone using Wolf and/or Lucina has become a meme, but not for a lack of reason or results. Their overall effectivneness combined with their relative ease of use based on the games fundamentals make them basically the go-to secondary/pockets

Palutena got a big boom at the start of Ultimate, mostly due just how improved she is as a character from Smash 4. However it is likely she is still good, but not in the Top-Tier echelon Basically she feels like near the end of Smash 4's meta, where she is maybe/maybe not a top 10 character. Howevfer she did have the most users in the top48 at Frostbite at 6. Which is something I guess

Pichu, basically a miniturare walking atom bomb of damage and opressiveness. Plus I guess the novelty of her originally being top-tier from being a sort joke character in Melee contributes to it.


Snake is a character that all his Brawl mains were waiting for, so it was no surprise they came back to him and it turns out he is also a strong contender in thi game. . Salem has picked him up and so far seems to be doing well with him. Placing 3rd at Ultimate Nimbus last week

DK is kinda surprsing, altough I guess he is among the more popular superheavies right now, and they always do have their own dedicated playerbase that will stick with them.

Yoshi...hmm. Got his best showings yet at Frostbite, but never really seems to just well "have it" when it comes to getting consistent results. He is basically sitting around lower-end of high-tier or around the top of mid-tier. Who knows if ESAM actullay decides to start using him more seriously as a co-main as he was saying, the dinosaur may get some big name top- level player rep to see what he can do

 

[Fatmanonice]

Can't you just use DJC PSI Magnet to either zone-break or back away from him while he's shoot pellets? Also everytime is offstage, you can just use dair and he dies. This might seem simplistic, and I know has the tornado that can juggle , but I honestly don't understand the reason behind the sentiment that "vs is 65:35." I think the matchup is actually 55:45 in 's favor.

Megaman can easily interrupt most of Ness's attacks and just camp him out. Leaf Shield's durability buff is a big deal in this matchup, fair and bair outspace Ness's aerials and both are very threatening when Ness is offstage. Because of the new mechanics of Megaman's recovery and crash bomb, he has better tools to deal with Ness's ledge camping than most of the cast. I think Megaman's ability to interrupt Ness is especially important to emphasize because all Ness players know the pain of having your second jump suddenly stolen or getting hit while trying to recover only to be put at a severe disadvantage. Basically Megaman can annoy Ness to death until it's time to come in for a kill, especially if Ness is offstage.

 

[The_Bookworm]

However while Ally stated he as considered dropping him. Salem has picked him up and so far seems to be doing well with him. Placing 3rd at Ultimate Nimbus last week

Just to clarify, Ally said he is considering picking up a secondary, similar to how he picked up Meta Knight in Brawl to cover Snake's bad matchups. He isn't dropping the character at all.

 

[Rizen]

I've been watching some matches and figured out who's better of these two: I still think Chrom's better because his sword has no sour tippers. In the last minute and a half of this game Roy keeps batting away Link but fails to KO him for a long time, even at high %s. Tipper spacing is very important for sword users because it's the earliest you can hit while zoning. No sour tipper makes chrom's advantage state deadlier than Roy's. To be fair, Roy recovered from situations Chrom couldn't but it's not enough.

 

[Zinith]

Yoshi...hmm. Got his best showings yet at Frostbite, but never really seems to just well "have it" when it comes to getting consistent results. He is basically sitting around lower-end of high-tier or around the top of mid-tier. Who knows if ESAM actullay decides to start using him more seriously as a co-main as he was saying, the dinosaur may get some big name top- level player rep to see what he can do

ESAM did start using him more in the recent bracket I saw. I was told he brought him out for ZSS players...