Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Game7a1]

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Might be a bit late with this, but this data shows how many players present at frostbite represented each character.
The top 10 most played characters in order:

Top 12 least played characters in order:( 3rd place tie)( 6th place tie)( 8th place tie)

Discuss

So I decided to look at how many entries there are. Assuming no overlap between the characters, that would sum up to 2388 (wouldn't be surprised if I messed up the sum, so I will double check). Obviously that shouldn't make sense since Frostbite only had 1239 people in Singles bracket, so there is some overlap between characters. Each character could be represented almost twice for each player. But it is possible for people to use more than 2 characters in bracket, making matters more perplexing as to which were represented multiple times and which weren't from just viewing the image as is (especially since not every attendee took the survey).

shouldn't have an omission as Anonymous Moniker enter bracket, so Mii Sword did have at least 1 representative. Without knowing how many people took the survey, and how heavy each of their characters were used (mains, secondaries, pockets, etc.), I'm hesitant to trust the results of this survey. I'd like a direct link to the data, if possible. Placing data is helpful, but to those who have been recording character placings in the Tournament Submission thread, not all characters were equally used to get a certain placing.

 

[Avokha]

So I decided to look at how many entries there are. Assuming no overlap between the characters, that would sum up to 2388 (wouldn't be surprised if I messed up the sum, so I will double check). Obviously that shouldn't make sense since Frostbite only had 1239 people in Singles bracket, so there is some overlap between characters. Each character could be represented almost twice for each player. But it is possible for people to use more than 2 characters in bracket, making matters more perplexing as to which were represented multiple times and which weren't from just viewing the image as is (especially since not every attendee took the survey).

shouldn't have an omission as Anonymous Moniker enter bracketed, so Mii Sword did have at least 1 representative. Without knowing how many people took the survey, and how heavy each of their characters were used (mains, secondaries, pockets, etc.), I'm hesitant to the results of this survey. I'd like a direct link to the data, if possible. Placing data is helpful, but to those who have been recording character placings in the Tournament Submission thread, not all characters were equally used to get a certain placing.

Indeed, given the total sum shown on the survey compared to entrants, it is essentially a certainty that each individual reported multiple character, which does make things less cut and dry than if a single player only gave a single character. However, with this in mind, it does show how many of those who attended must have been believers in the 'counterpick meta' that many people are pushing, as well as making an undeniable display of what characters are popular or unpopular, whether as mains, secondaries, or mere pockets. At the very least, we can assume each submission equates to that character being used at least once in the event, meaning that, say, wolf was used in bracket at least once by at least 156 players minimum, and toon link was pulled out a minimum of a single set during the whole event by at minimum one player.

As for anonymous moniker, he must not have participated in the survey. Either that or mii swordfighter was not included merely by mistake

 

[Lore]

Bowser had pretty high representation but didn't have too great results. Oof. I had high hopes for him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bowser had pretty high representation but didn't have too great results. Oof. I had high hopes for him.

Then again, I don't think any of the high profile Bowser players participated in this tournament.

 

[Lore]

Pretty fair, I suppose. Regardless, it's probably still not a great sign.

I think the character still has a lot of great qualities, but there are definitely some drawbacks. Here's hoping a good player shows results with Bowser.

 

[MG_3989]

Bowser had pretty high representation but didn't have too great results. Oof. I had high hopes for him.

It’s still so early though and I wouldn’t judge him off of one major. We’ll see how he does in the future I personally think he’s a strong character

 

[Lore]

I think he's strong too, but let's be fair. He had a high amount of reps and not very great results. It could just be that he needs a good enough player, so we will see.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

M2K has been trying to main him but isn't confident in him and pretty much in character crisis.

 

[Lore]

I feel like tons of people are in character crisis, tbh. It's a game that doesn't have instantly dominant top tiers, unlike every other smash.

Some characters are clearly better than others, but the quality gap is smaller than ever before.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Got an update from some of the top Bayo players. tamim apparently had enough of the character (and I personally don't blame him lol):

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It is no troll. He is back to his former main from SSB4. Which is cool, considering that ZSS is a character where her moveset actually functions properly lol. He found out some cool tech with the character:

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Meanwhile, Lima continues to main Bayonetta and has even made a matchup chart:

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Definitely not looking good for Bayo in terms of matchups, with players in the comment thread showing disdain towards the large amount of soft advantageous and even matchups she has (for example, I don't see Mario and Samus losing to her at all).
However, he is slowly losing faith in the character, especially after getting wiped out by Awestin in a recent local:

The read at 4:27 was clean though.

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[Heracr055]

^That zss clip with Inkling is a troll. Please do some more research before posting clips like that as new tech, Bookworm
On the other hand I agree that things are looking increasingly bleak for Bayonetta.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I've been watching some matches and figured out who's better of these two: I still think Chrom's better because his sword has no sour tippers. In the last minute and a half of this game Roy keeps batting away Link but fails to KO him for a long time, even at high %s. Tipper spacing is very important for sword users because it's the earliest you can hit while zoning. No sour tipper makes chrom's advantage state deadlier than Roy's. To be fair, Roy recovered from situations Chrom couldn't but it's not enough.

I already said my opinion on the matter but I'll just give a quick resume: Do you like consistency? Play . Do you feel confident and patient in dealing with sweetspots and sourspots? Play .

 

[Emblem Lord]

I already said my opinion on the matter but I'll just give a quick resume: Do you like consistency? Play . Do you feel confident and patient in dealing with sweetspots and sourspots? Play .

Do you like winning?

Play

 

[MG_3989]

Got an update from some of the top Bayo players. tamim apparently had enough of the character (and I personally don't blame him lol):

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It is no troll. He is back to his former main from SSB4. Which is cool, considering that ZSS is a character where her moveset actually functions properly lol. He found out some cool tech with the character:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Meanwhile, Lima continues to main Bayonetta and has even made a matchup chart:

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Definitely not looking good for Bayo in terms of matchups, with players in the comment thread showing disdain towards the large amount of soft advantageous and even matchups she has (for example, I don't see Mario and Samus losing to her at all).
However, he is slowly losing faith in the character, especially after getting wiped out by Awestin in a recent local:

The read at 4:27 was clean though.

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I mean Awestin is Awestin tho and probably a better player than Lima and Lima has actually taken a set off him before with Bayo but like you said I think Bayo is in serious trouble and needs a lot of help to make her a functional character again. Unfortunately I don’t think she’s going to get that help and I hope I’m wrong but from talking to Bayo mains it seems like the character almost needs to be reworked

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Do you like winning?

Play

Rizen simply posted his opinion on who he thinks is better of those two characters, I answered with my own opinion which has nothing to do with if one wishes to win.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All playfulness aside we have seen Roy's sourspots cost him games that Chrom would have won. And this is at high level. We saw it recently with Leffen.

Make of that what you will.

 

[Ffamran]

All playfulness aside we have seen Roy's sourspots cost him games that Chrom would have won. And this is at high level. We saw it recently with Leffen.

Make of that what you will.

Roy also has slightly shorter horizontal range. The developers changed the animations for jab and Ftilt, but they didn't adjust it in a way that both Chrom and Roy would have the same range. Then again, there's the thing with Dark Samus's Up Smash compared to Samus's.

Roy/Chrom Jab1 (last frame) and Ftilt (first frame)
Roy bends his elbow so he has less horizontal range than Chrom.

Roy Jab1: https://t.co/W4m0dCUlY8
Chrom Jab1: https://t.co/Ojcnmr2OpW
Roy Ftilt: https://t.co/22j9ENTLXF
Chrom Ftilt: https://t.co/pFzN3l75Nx pic.twitter.com/IJxP1e25a9

— Meshima (@Meshima_) March 6, 2019

Speaking of hitboxes, Ganondorf's Side Smash.

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[NairWizard]

gonna go against the grain and say that Roy is better than Chrom, and might be better than Lucina in the long run (give or take a patch or two; currently, her b-air offstage outshines anything that he can do, so there's not much hope for Roy in the current meta). The application of his sourspots has so much "potential"--that's a scary word but very applicable to Roy's case. Roys are missing so many combos right now; they're not even consistently doing jab to b-air.

I also don't really buy the consistency argument. It works in the Marth and Lucina case, but Marth and Lucina are not very strong or very fast characters; they're strong, consistent zoning-style characters. Roy and Chrom on the other hand are devastatingly fast and devastatingly strong; they ooze both kill power and surprise, so Roy killing less consistently than Chrom doesn't matter nearly as much. Meanwhile the recovery and long-term hit confirm potential are in Roy's favor.

In the last minute and a half of this game Roy keeps batting away Link but fails to KO him for a long time, even at high %s. Tipper spacing is very important for sword users because it's the earliest you can hit while zoning. No sour tipper makes chrom's advantage state deadlier than Roy's. To be fair, Roy recovered from situations Chrom couldn't but it's not enough.

In that last minute, half the time Leffen was doing full hops near the ledge; of course you'll only get a tipper f-air with that. You have to play slightly differently with Roy to get kills than you have to play Chrom. More short hops, more fastfalls, and more jukes.

Basically, Roy can be both a zoner and a grappler. Sometimes you have to tune in to your inner grappler while playing him.

 

[Impax]

Thata a depressing bayo matchup spread. She loses to the majority of relevant threats and wins against none of them. It would take a real shift in the meta for her to become relevant.

 

[MapleBeasts]

I mean Awestin is Awestin tho and probably a better player than Lima and Lima has actually taken a set off him before with Bayo but like you said I think Bayo is in serious trouble and needs a lot of help to make her a functional character again. Unfortunately I don’t think she’s going to get that help and I hope I’m wrong but from talking to Bayo mains it seems like the character almost needs to be reworked

She seems to suffer from Sheik-itis in that killing with her does not happen before late percents. She has a harder time starting combos in this game and losing reliable ladders absolutely destroyed her. In Sm4sh you could ladder people and kill them pre-70% with regularity but her knock back on her aerials is so bad with the exception of dair that you aren't killing anyone until extremely late percentages with them or you start the combo on a platform. I think the one thing she's got going for her is that once she gets a combo started she does a LOT of damage (especially at earlier percents) but from my experience trying her out and playing lots of them online it doesn't happen enough with how predictable her neutral is. I also find her air dodge to be absolutely pathetic in this game

 

[Ark of Silence101]

All playfulness aside we have seen Roy's sourspots cost him games that Chrom would have won. And this is at high level. We saw it recently with Leffen.

Make of that what you will.

High risk/high reward, that's the price for playing Roy, again if that isn't your cup of tea play Chrom.

 

[Augi]

I'm super late to the post about the Ness matchups (and I too, make this post cautiously, also wanting to avoid Ness consuming the thread) But I'm just slightly irked at Zelda getting the shaft again and being seen as a +1 match-up. He's either equal or more likely -1 against Zelda in my opinion.

PK Fire falls to Nayrus, and Phantom is a literal wall that makes approaching him easy. On the ground, her buttons can outrange Ness' stubby arms and legs and even his bat. When he does get close enough, Nayrus shrugs him off. And PK Thunder harassment? Not even. Just turns him into a sitting duck for Farores wind. His recovery is predictable enough that sweeping the ledge with Phantom is just a matter of timing. Recovering high? Zelda's up-air says Hi.

On Zelda's side Din's Fire gets snuffed by Magnet, and... I guess keep an eye on his fair? Meanwhile, she easily challenges or shuts down a lot of Ness' options.

I'm sure I'll get an earful from some people here for having such a strong opinion on this but... oh well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

All playfulness aside we have seen Roy's sourspots cost him games that Chrom would have won. And this is at high level. We saw it recently with Leffen.

To be fair, we've also seen Chrom getting gimped in situations where Roy wouldn't have been, and Roy getting kills with up-B (it's hard for Chrom to kill with up-B). I think Chrom is probably better on-stage, in general, but his recovery can be lackluster, so that's when you'd pick Roy.

 

[KakuCP9]

gonna go against the grain and say that Roy is better than Chrom, and might be better than Lucina in the long run (give or take a patch or two; currently, her b-air offstage outshines anything that he can do, so there's not much hope for Roy in the current meta). The application of his sourspots has so much "potential"--that's a scary word but very applicable to Roy's case. Roys are missing so many combos right now; they're not even consistently doing jab to b-air.

I also don't really buy the consistency argument. It works in the Marth and Lucina case, but Marth and Lucina are not very strong or very fast characters; they're strong, consistent zoning-style characters. Roy and Chrom on the other hand are devastatingly fast and devastatingly strong; they ooze both kill power and surprise, so Roy killing less consistently than Chrom doesn't matter nearly as much. Meanwhile the recovery and long-term hit confirm potential are in Roy's favor.



In that last minute, half the time Leffen was doing full hops near the ledge; of course you'll only get a tipper f-air with that. You have to play slightly differently with Roy to get kills than you have to play Chrom. More short hops, more fastfalls, and more jukes.

Basically, Roy can be both a zoner and a grappler. Sometimes you have to tune in to your inner grappler while playing him.

Well I'm gonna go even further against the grain and say Chrom is better due his better edge-guarding and ledge-trapping. The former may seem counterintuitive due Roy's better recovery, but consider the following.
You doing a low recovery and Chrom's jumping at you so you brace yourself for an aerial, but he b-reverses his side-b (or neutral-b if it's too difficult) and suddenly he's below you facing the ledge. When you try to recover, he uses his aether, it hits you, you die and he's still alive. You can try and wait him out to hit him, but unless you have multiple jumps, he can go pretty deep into the blastzone and still come back. In addition to blowing you up with aether, the b-reverse will orient him in position to hit you with a bair so he can alternate between the two deadly edge-guarding tools and in some cases, down-b certain recoveries.
While Roy can do the b-reverse edge-guarding, the ranges he threatens is lesser than Chrom's due to him not being threatening above him and he can't go as low vertically as Chrom.
The ledge-trapping speaks for itself. In Roy's case, while he can read and punish get-up options, he has very little ways to actually force those mistakes so the opponent can get up at their leisure. Chrom on the other hand will kill you with a jab confirm/f-tilt if you hang on the ledge too long so you have to make split second decisions which can lead to mistakes Chrom can capitalize on. This is important in match-ups where the opponent has weak ledge options such as . So not only does Chrom have a more consistent damage output, he can create more opportunities to take stocks which offsets Roy's marginally better survivability. The MUs Roy would do better than Chrom is if the opponent is functionally impossible to edge-guard or ledge-trap like.
Though to be honest, trying to argue whose better is kind of splitting hairs since they both occupy the power level be it upper high tier or the lower part of top tier.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I feel like tons of people are in character crisis, tbh. It's a game that doesn't have instantly dominant top tiers, unlike every other smash.

Some characters are clearly better than others, but the quality gap is smaller than ever before.

I'm honestly reminded of super early Smash 4 when there was like 5 really good characters, 5 that were also really good but only if the player was really good thanks to high learning curves, a ton of mediocre characters, and a number that were comically bad compared to the top 10. In early Smash 4, the low tier pool was enormous but now it mostly feels like a buttload of mid tier characters that could probably be viable with a few buffs. I think that's the super frustrating thing right now for a lot of players. It's hard to get too invested in these characters that need time to develop when they get BTFO by the pick up and play top tiers.

 

[Lore]

Maybe, but I feel like there are significantly more really good - good with skill characters than there were at the start of 4. Not to mention how the very top characters don't immediately curb stomp mid tiers.

Patches are a real issue, though. It's hard not to feel frustrated when a character feels one or two tweaks away from being great.

 

[J0eyboi]

Interesting... I find it hard to believe someone with no losing matchups would have less than 10 advantage matchups.

Why? Qualities that tend to give characters few losing matchups (lack of exploitable weaknesses, strong and diverse options) and those that tend to make characters extremely dominant in some matchups (polarizing and hard to deal with options, the ability to heavily exploit certain weaknesses) are not inherently connected.

Well I'm gonna go even further against the grain and say Chrom is better due his better edge-guarding and ledge-trapping. The former may seem counterintuitive due Roy's better recovery, but consider the following.
You doing a low recovery and Chrom's jumping at you so you brace yourself for an aerial, but he b-reverses his side-b (or neutral-b if it's too difficult) and suddenly he's below you facing the ledge. When you try to recover, he uses his aether, it hits you, you die and he's still alive. You can try and wait him out to hit him, but unless you have multiple jumps, he can go pretty deep into the blastzone and still come back. In addition to blowing you up with aether, the b-reverse will orient him in position to hit you with a bair so he can alternate between the two deadly edge-guarding tools and in some cases, down-b certain recoveries.

This entire process is slow, telegraphed, and overall ineffective and inefficient (any time it would work, a normal edgeguard would work better). There's a reason you don't see it used; edgeguard like a normal person.

The ledge-trapping speaks for itself. In Roy's case, while he can read and punish get-up options, he has very little ways to actually force those mistakes so the opponent can get up at their leisure. Chrom on the other hand will kill you with a jab confirm/f-tilt if you hang on the ledge too long so you have to make split second decisions which can lead to mistakes Chrom can capitalize on.

Dtilt and Flare Blade can hit most characters on the ledge already, not to mention ledgetrump bair, which can kill at 60% or earlier. That's not to say Chrom's ledge pressure isn't better, but Roy can definitely force mistakes.

This is important in match-ups where the opponent has weak ledge options such as

Pichu's ledge options definitely aren't weak. Agility is still insane, even without a hitbox.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Right now, I think there are around 22-27 characters that feel "fine" on their own, with few or no flaws bad enough to really force them to pick a secondary (though having one can still be useful since turning a -1 MU to +1 or +2 can be very beneficial). Those are the top and high tiers. Below that, we have most of the roster, the mid tiers, who range from high-mid (characters who tend to do quite well in many MUs but then loses many MUs -1 and a few -2) to low-mid (characters that tend to be overall mediocre but not really bad). The the bottom, we have 3-10 characters that are "low tier" and don't really work well at higher levels (they can get occasional upsets but are fairly unlikely to do well in the long run).

Interestingly enough, most of the super heavyweights in this game seem to be mid tiers rather than low tiers, but not being high tier kind of sucks for them. Still, King Dedede, Bowser, and Donkey Kong in particular are all likely better than the best super heavyweights in Smash 4 (and Brawl, and Melee, and 64). They're probably not great solo characters in the long run but they can really dominate locals if played well, especially if you don't have to face their worst MUs (do they even have any -3 MUs this game? Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina used to kind of destroy super heavyweights in Smash 4, do they still dominate the MU in Ultimate?).

I still think it's likely most top players will stick to characters that are around top 15 in viability. Character below that tend to have flaws or be too much effort to really be worth it (like Pokémon Trainer and Mega Man). Speaking of "too much effort", if some character is really only good when played at TAS level, then we should probably discount that to some extent when placing the character. Characters should be placed based on what's realistic for a top to do, not what a theoretical optical player might do. Ice Climbers might be an example of this, perhaps Ice Climbers is theoretically a top 5 character when played at TAS level, but in practice the character might be hard enough to only end up being a mid tier. Smash 4 Sheik might've been the best character in Smash 4 in theory, but in practice she was hard enough to struggle to even make top 3 (even when played by amazing players like VoiD and Mr. R).

 

[Lore]

Solid thoughts, Frihetsanka. I think Ridley can be added to the local-dominating-heavy list; he has put up some solid results at small events, as people have learned how to use him.

Interestingly, the last patch mostly had buffs instead of nerfs. I'm very hopeful that the trend continues, expanding the high tiers.

 

[ASAP_Smash]

Mii Swordfighter might be top tier.

So looking at the title you might think “His tornado up-b might ko early, but it’s hard to hit, and inconsistent. That can’t make him top tier”. Well... you’re right, and I’m not even going to mention tornado upb.

I’m talking about the beast known as “2332”. Please, heed my warning...

So first let’s talk about mii swordfighter’s normals starting with his nair. He shares with Ike and Cloud the infamous round-house nair. One of the most powerful neutral tools in the game. He also has a freakishly fast frame 5 down tilt that combo’s into fair for free. Furthermore, he has a frame 10 bair that has the strength of a smash attack. His upair is a multi hitting move that KO’s, and his down-air is a multi-hitting move with a landing hitbox. His forward tilt does 14%, and his up-tilt covers 180 degrees around his body. His forward air combo’s into itself, and true combo’s into smash attacks when auto-cancelled. Finally, his up smash is a 3 hit attack that extends insanely far over his head. It’s actually a god-like moveset. Oh yeah, did I mention he has the longest dash grab in the game? Although, let’s talk about the juicy specials...

Starting with shuriken of light; shuriken of light is a projectile that basically serves as a ranged parry. If you hit it from any distance that provides hit-stun (e.g. the starting position in the training room), you gain frame advantage. That’s insane considering that the end lag is SIGNIFICANTLY less than greninja’s water shuriken. Next is chakram.

Chakram is a projectile I consider to be a rival to wolf’s laser. Albeit it has three extra frames of end-lag, and isn’t electric, it is surely superior in versatility and speed. Chakram travels faster than laser moving at 1.5x the speed of laser. It can also be angled up, or down. Finally, it can be thrown with a tilt to be a short-ranged multi-hitting attack. This is pretty important. Those of you who are skeptical about tossing tornado, understand that jumping into your opponent with a short chakram is a free combo into hero spin. It’s just as broken, and more consistent. It doubles as a ledge-guard, as it can be thrown below the ledge where it will linger to intercept recoveries.

Next is hero’s spin. Hero’s spin doesn’t really have any awesome attributes other than being your basic “Link up b”. Although, it does come out a frame faster than Young Link’s up b. Most importantly it grants a viable out of shield option and contributes to a busted KO combo (short hop slow chakram > up b).

Finally, reversal slash. Reversal slash has to be the most powerful reflector in the game. While it comes out a frame slower than wolf’s reflector it reflects not only projectiles, but people as well making it the fastest character reflector in the game. It can stall in the air, and wave bounce. This thing is awesome in neutral, and even better as an edge-guard.

So in conclusion, mii swordfighter actually has a moveset that rivals the best swordsmen and projectiles in the game. Powerful normals including Ike’s round-house nair, and one of the fastest down-tilts in the game. Two projectiles that are debatably better than greninja’s water shuriken and wolf’s lazer. A KO confirm at 60%. A huge dash grab. And finally, the fastest character reflector in the game. I will be surprised if mii swordfighter doesn’t make it to the top soon. I genuinely believe he counters a large majority of the current meta.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Maybe, but I feel like there are significantly more really good - good with skill characters than there were at the start of 4. Not to mention how the very top characters don't immediately curb stomp mid tiers.

Patches are a real issue, though. It's hard not to feel frustrated when a character feels one or two tweaks away from being great.

The "good with skill" tier is pretty huge and that might be part of the problem. Why pick Young Link when Olimar's easier to learn and does most of the same things plus a better recovery? Why pick Megaman when Snake camps better and kills easier? You practically need a doctorate to be really good with Shulk, the Ice Climbers, and Pac-Man but each has top tier characters that do what they do but better with less work. This why I'm not surprised that a ton of people aren't exactly flocking to characters like ZSS and Wario despite being shown to be amazing in the right hands. Like I said, there's like 6 or 7 characters right now that are in top tier that simply edge out the rest of the cast and offer bigger and quicker rewards in relation to their learning curves, creating a massive mid tier where the characters aren't better but are simply beaten out and have slightly worse match up spreads.

 

[Lore]

It is barely three months since Ultimate came out, and Wario, one of the "amazing in the right hands" characters, already has done extremely well at a major event. Same with Greninja.

If they are able to have those results only three months after the game released, I think you are overestimating the work needed to play them.

 

[Avokha]

We talk about who the top characters are quite a lot, but I'd be interesting in hearing some thoughts on who the so called low tiers in this game are, what makes them so bad, and what can be done to see them rise in relevancy (this does not exclusively mean them getting buffed via patches). What are your thoughts, folks?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I can vouch for Chakram; I have fought a lot of 1332 Mii Swordfighters online and his neutral game feels better than Lucas. Eating Gale Wind into Hero Spin kills never gets old.

Edit: For the low tiers, all you need is a top player to get behind them, do well in tourney, and generate hype and players will flock to them as long as the players don't find the character too hard to play or boring.

 

[bc1910]

I truly recognised how bad Bayo has become upon the realisation that Greninja can shield camp her.

It is barely three months since Ultimate came out, and Wario, one of the "amazing in the right hands" characters, already has done extremely well at a major event. Same with Greninja.

If they are able to have those results only three months after the game released, I think you are overestimating the work needed to play them.

Lea has been playing Greninja since Smash 4 and there’s a lot of carryover knowledge and tech. In fact just about every Greninja placing well played him in S4.

He’s definitely more user friendly in this game but his early placements are mostly due to the fact that his players have already put the work into learning him. It doesn’t mean he won’t take work from new players.

 

[Kellojolly]

With how highly praised and rated Shulk was by most pros in and out of the US, I'd love to see more shulk results. There are good shulk pros such as Nicko and now Larry Lurr who's been using Shulk a lot recently. But Shulk results just aren't there at the moment. I understand such hard character will take more time than others for pros to master but I'm not sure if this would actually happen. To those with more competitive knowledge than I do, what are your thoughts? How deo you all feel about Shulk?

 

[Augi]

We talk about who the top characters are quite a lot, but I'd be interesting in hearing some thoughts on who the so called low tiers in this game are, what makes them so bad, and what can be done to see them rise in relevancy (this does not exclusively mean them getting buffed via patches). What are your thoughts, folks?

I'll throw out some candidates for the bottom of the barrel... though these are my personal impressions. Because I have not the time to research frame data and tournament results to form a more objective viewpoint on it.

Also, figuring out who the worst is may be harder than determining top tier given how blurred the lines between characters get as you go down the tiers... But hey, to get the ball rolling...

- She might just need more time to develop, but jeez. Getting your whole gimmick, and half of who you are, gimped by a wayward aerial and watching Luma crash over the side within 5 sec. of the match starting is pretty soul crushing.

- Iunno, if she belongs down here but she feels like she does. She got some boosts and some losses switching to Ultimate. But she's difficult to play without any of the advantages that come from learning a weird character. Other weird characters that take time to learn can end up being top tier. WFT doesn't even come close.

- I mean, he's got power but, y'know, that recovery.

- Doesn't really need explaining...

 

[Lore]

Lea has been playing Greninja since Smash 4 and there’s a lot of carryover knowledge and tech. In fact just about every Greninja placing well played him in S4.

He’s definitely more user friendly in this game but his early placements are mostly due to the fact that his players have already put the work into learning him. It doesn’t mean he won’t take work from new players.

Not to discount the hard work of Smash 4 Greninja players, but this argument ignores how different Ultimate is. While those players certainly had a leg up on things, they still had to learn new matchups and changes like everyone else.

He's not an easy character, but the fact remains that there are Greninja placings after only 3 months of the game being out. That's a pretty big deal.

 

[Heracr055]

I truly recognised how bad Bayo has become upon the realisation that Greninja can shield camp her.



Lea has been playing Greninja since Smash 4 and there’s a lot of carryover knowledge and tech. In fact just about every Greninja placing well played him in S4.

He’s definitely more user friendly in this game but his early placements are mostly due to the fact that his players have already put the work into learning him. It doesn’t mean he won’t take work from new players.

This is the same case for Peach and Daisy. Their players have always been specialists and have been technically sound. In this title the buff to dtilt, ignoring of short hop aerial damage reduction due to float, being able to choose their FSmash tool of choice, and exploitation of Smash Ultimate universal changes all coalesce to make these characters extremely good in this title. Meanwhile other characters with changes to their moves or adjusting to the new game changes are playing catch up with respect to technical play

 

[Fatmanonice]

We talk about who the top characters are quite a lot, but I'd be interesting in hearing some thoughts on who the so called low tiers in this game are, what makes them so bad, and what can be done to see them rise in relevancy (this does not exclusively mean them getting buffed via patches). What are your thoughts, folks?

- unusually long lag on a lot of moves, slow ground and air speed, predictable recovery, the belly shield is kind of a liability, doesn't have good landing options/gets juggled easily, doesn't do anything that other heavies can do better, gets camped out pretty easily despite having a reflector, etc.

- Lloid doesn't work how it's supposed to and neither does jab, ironically gets camped out easily, doesn't do anything that Villager can't do better, etc.

- Same problems as Smash 4 but made worse with less kill power overall and the mecha koopa being nerfed.

- Recovery is slightly better but for some reason they nerfed his strength. Same problems as Smash 4 mostly.

- Most of the same weaknesses as Jigglypuff but with fewer reliable kill options and a worse recovery.

/- Painfully mediocre and honestly reminds me of Brawl Mario: outclassed by every character similar to them.

- No where as threatening as he used to be. In Smash 4, Ryu was weighed out by massive combos and the ability to kill most of the cast at like 60% with ease but now his weaknesses and learning curve make Ken a more dependable pick.