COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Kalm]

Are there plans for any character specific changes? Such as correcting Snake's Utilt and Ftilt, or giving Sonic better KO power, maybe setting up for Link to be able self bomb and improve recovery?

 

[Dan_X]

Are there plans for any character specific changes? Such as correcting Snake's Utilt and Ftilt, or giving Sonic better KO power, maybe setting up for Link to be able self bomb and improve recovery?

Sure, but if we're going to get into individual character balancing we're talking about the use of potentially quite a bit of code. Remember, we're limited to 256lines of code. That's it. Before we can consider character specific changes we have to get the primary gameplay elements out of the way, for example, many of the proposed ideas on the agenda OP would have to first be taken care of.

Though I must say I wouldn't mind a buff to Sheik's fair, then she'd probably be more terrifying then her Melee self. ;P

 

[Kalm]

Truth be told it wouldn't take but 2 to 3 changes max for pretty much any character to totally improve their balance. Any character that would actually need it that is. I think that in the end all anyone would really need is either lower or higher kill % on some moves or and maybe more rarely a shift in priority. Only other thing I could think of would be to add X amount to lag to X amount of MK's moves.

Though it would never happen, I would love to see moveset changes. Like Ganon having some more creative attacks, perhaps even one or two with his sword involved. I'm also really ticked over Sonic, I wish SideB and DownB could just be alternating moves from the same button and for him to have his own other ability, like maybe a Wario style cooldown that boosts his framerate(speed) of movements and attacks for like 5 seconds or something.

Also, why does Yoshi's egg roll put him into free fall? It's a fail in my book.

 

[matt4300]

Truth be told it wouldn't take but 2 to 3 changes max for pretty much any character to totally improve their balance. Any character that would actually need it that is. I think that in the end all anyone would really need is either lower or higher kill % on some moves or and maybe more rarely a shift in priority. Only other thing I could think of would be to add X amount to lag to X amount of MK's moves.

Though it would never happen, I would love to see moveset changes. Like Ganon having some more creative attacks, perhaps even one or two with his sword involved. I'm also really ticked over Sonic, I wish SideB and DownB could just be alternating moves from the same button and for him to have his own other ability, like maybe a Wario style cooldown that boosts his framerate(speed) of movements and attacks for like 5 seconds or something.

Also, why does Yoshi's egg roll put him into free fall? It's a fail in my book.

If only if only v_v'... but i do agree with you on the first paragraph... if there was a quick 3 or 5 line code that decreases or increases priority/hit stun/damage/knockback that would be just wonderful. beacause some chars cant get magicly better just from 1 or 2 attakcs being better.Case in point bowser... hes slow with laggy moves and thats all there is to it. He cant even combo well with hitstun. so he will be back to melee tiers soon enough ( oh and his recovery is ballz) but yeh im most exited about char balance atm. i can live without nerfed ledges and sheilds to a lesser extent.

 

[Osi]

If only if only v_v'... but i do agree with you on the first paragraph... if there was a quick 3 or 5 line code that decreases or increases priority/hit stun/damage/knockback that would be just wonderful. beacause some chars cant get magicly better just from 1 or 2 attakcs being better.Case in point bowser... hes slow with laggy moves and thats all there is to it. He cant even combo well with hitstun. so he will be back to melee tiers soon enough ( oh and his recovery is ballz) but yeh im most exited about char balance atm. i can live without nerfed ledges and sheilds to a lesser extent.

With limited code lines of 256.... I doubt we see any character specific changes really. The best we can hope for is that the codes selected for the tourney edition standard will help nerf characters like MK and buff ones like link/bowser. Personally I feel jiggly is buffed a ton from the hitstun codes. I'm playing on +10% right now and sleep combos are no issue, they were easy at 11 too. Once most characters hit around 10-20% there are so many options. Hopefully something can be done to try and balance the tiers the best they can be through hitstun/damage/shield stun/edge cancel/lag cancel/gravity global mods. The cast is far too big for mods to each one seperate, and it's not fair to just balance 4 or 5 of them (not to mention the fights on who/what to balance).


If anything is changed for sets like say grapple below the edges, perfect shield reflects/is harder to do, and shine cancels happens I'd love to see it given the free space is left. I'd think the highest priority now would be to get game wide things missing like shield stun and edge cancels fixed even made, then getting a set of rules for tourneys using them, and then any character specific changes with the space left. The grapple and PT codes are the two I have heard of that I could see actually making it in (even these may need to be simplified to save space).

Sorry if that was a cold blanket on the dreaming and all, just trying to keep things in perspective. I have so many ideas on what I want to be hacked in, but mine are not important to tourney stuff. I'd like to hear if there is enough content on those rumored characters from launch that looked scrapped like Dr/plus-minus/dixxy/mewtwo/roy that they can be turned on as skins if they fit the model. There are also various collision mods to PK stadium 1, skyworld, and lylat I'd love to see (imagine if the ship was only center all match instead of shifting ^^).

 

[Wind Owl]

... The only thing that exists of those characters is their name on an empty (or near-empty) data file. There are no models, no movesets, no icons, nothing.

 

[SketchHurricane]

There are also various collision mods to PK stadium 1, skyworld, and lylat I'd love to see (imagine if the ship was only center all match instead of shifting ^^).

It would be great to remove some hazards from certain stages. Places like Pirate Ship w/o bombs, Wario Ware without minigames...what if you could freeze Pictochat on a certain drawing for the whole match? I wonder if any of that is possible...

 

[Osi]

... The only thing that exists of those characters is their name on an empty (or near-empty) data file. There are no models, no movesets, no icons, nothing.

Aww that's a shame hehe, oh well.

 

[Alopex]

The infinite stamina and no-swap codes are the only codes needed by the PT in order to make him a viable character.

Anything else is just a luxury code meant to accommodate to certain people's playstyle's. That's not needed because none of the things mentioned are actual problems for the PT character, just things people find annoying. What's broken has already been fixed, and that should be that.

I support the infinite stamina and no-swap for Brawl+, but nothing else.

 

[kupo15]

I support the infinite stamina and no-swap for Brawl+, but nothing else.

Then how would that be any different than vanilla brawl? Sounds like a boring brawl+ if you ask me...:\

 

[Revven]

Then how would that be any different than vanilla brawl? Sounds like a boring brawl+ if you ask me...:\

He means no other character balances, not just having those two particular codes on. Also, you can already technically have Warioware Inc. with no mini-games. Just use the Level Speed Modifier and it will make the stage freeze at the beginning part (meaning, it won't ever transition to the mini-games). It also effects other moving stages like Mushroomy Kingdom, Big Blue, Luigi's Mansion (the mansion doesn't come back), PKMN Stadium 1 & 2 (always stays at neutral stage) and etc. Of course, it'd be better to have their own stage codes because the Level Speed Modifier also effects other stages, not just the moving ones (it may make FD's background freeze at a certain part, meaning never move).

Anyway... this is something for if we have SPACE after the mechanics. We CAN get the codes made, but... they may not likely be used in the standard set (if there is any) if the mechanics we set forth to make work.

One thing I'D like fixed is that stupid windmill in PKMN Stadium 1, make it like Melee's Windmill... it's SOOO bad in Brawl, it's one of the reasons why I don't really ever pick that stage often.

 

[kupo15]

Oh gotcha!

Im thinking about Yoshi/ness's DJC but Im not going to worry about that now. But believe me, I would love for the time to come when we can start worrying trivial things such as characters balances!

 

[Finns7]

I main Link and Im not for character balance yet, I dont think he needs it particularly, the foundation of brawl+ needs to be laid down first.

 

[matt4300]

I main Link and Im not for character balance yet, I dont think he needs it particularly, the foundation of brawl+ needs to be laid down first.

Yes but when do we say the foundation of brawl+ is laid. It seems like we are continuing to add more and more codes and the list is already so long. If we keep adding code the foundation will be all there is to it and we will be stuck with another imba smash game. Theres got to be some kinda limit to how much space is going towards the new game mechanics, or we will never get around to char ballance. Infact it doesnt seem like anyone give a **** about makeing worthless chars usable.
Im not saying we dont need dash danceing, nerfed sheilds, nerfed ledges but really all of those codes are melee mechanics that just serve to make a melee tierlist. we already see fox, falcon, and sheik moveing closer to there melee placeings.
I for one would like to see a viable LINK or BOWSER or mabye a freakin YOSHI they have been crapped on to much at this point.

Edit: character balances are NOT trivial. balance is what makes a fighting game not just good but great.
just about everyone here seems to be content letting the high tiers dominate. Now i dont know if thats because you yourselves main a high teir (ofcouse im not saying that you do) but now im just ranting >_> 8 years of maining a low teir will do that to ya T_T

GAAAAhhh we finaly have an opportunity to FIX these chars and you guys would still rather make things like CC and tether any vertical surface codes @_@ come on....

EDIT: COME ON!!!! DX

 

[zxeon]

Maybe you don't know your character well enough yet?

 

[Finns7]

I understand you but I feel that brawl + has helped link out well...He is more mobile (if u use Mad) He can combo better not that he couldnt, his zair is really good because it sets up jab locks if they miss the tech, the rang has the same story.

This is playing from my settings also.

In normal brawl aswell as brawl+ Links recovery is not the greatest but if you kno how to DI correctly you can live to high percents as long as you dont get gimped early on.

I think PW should shorten or change the MAD a little. Is there also a code in develoupment that nerfs the grab game a little, D3's range is so broken but maybe shield stun will help with that....

Edit: I kno my character very very well thats why I dont feel that its important right now to buffer him.

 

[matt4300]

Maybe you don't know your character well enough yet?

i think he was talking to me fins ^_^' and yes i know my link i would have to be ******** not to after so long, and in knowing him i know his limits. But i kinda wish i dident put link im my last post since i do infact main him. So BOWSER, YOSHI, and freakin NESS

yeh finns i know what you mean link is worlds better with comboing and MAD but everything he got from it chars like marth, falco, toon link, pit, D3, snake, meta knight, rob ect got it x2 becuase they already could gimp/combo/ recover.

 

[Finns7]

Matt I dont really agree, Snake wasnt the best comboer and d3 was not either he also lost his cg, falco is an easier matchup because he loses his 0 to death on link. Link has the tools to be viable imo (in the hands of a master) Im not saying he will be top tier or high or mid im just saying he has some things up his sleeve that he didnt have before that help him alot.

With more codes I see more balancing also so who knows how much link will benefit from this without tampering with him.

 

[kupo15]

Trust me. I have been maining low tiers for a while also so i know the frustration.

I have a pretty good idea when the main foundation is done which are the codes above the red line. I also have a good understanding of priority and codes may be shifted around in priority depending on the effects of new codes. Don't worry, we know what we are doing! ^_^

Yes, character balances is trivial compared to shield stun, hit stun and the like since those main mechanics globally effects the cast as well as contributing to character balances all in the same time. L canceling and hit stun and soon to come shield stun will balance characters much more so than individual character codes. Just look at falcon.

 

[matt4300]

Trust me. I have been maining low tiers for a while also so i know the frustration.

I have a pretty good idea when the main foundation is done which are the codes above the red line. I also have a good understanding of priority and codes may be shifted around in priority depending on the effects of new codes. Don't worry, we know what we are doing! ^_^

Yes, character balances is trivial compared to shield stun, hit stun and the like since those main mechanics globally effects the cast as well as contributing to character balances all in the same time. L canceling and hit stun and soon to come shield stun will balance characters much more so than individual character codes. Just look at falcon.

hmm the way i see it nerfed sheilds will pretty much only help fast chars that can attack and get away with it.Powershielding a slow char is just a joke. So thats another one for the fast chars >_> i have no dought that you are putting some codes ahead of others in priority for the sake of an alround better game, but before this post i was under the impression there would be no char balances until everything in the OP was finished. So I feel much better now.

 

[kupo15]

Shield stun will do a lot more than what you said. For one, this game will be more aggressive since you won't be shield grabbed for good approaches. Secondly, moves will work the way they are suppose to work. Multi hit moves are also shield pressure moves so ppl like Pit, Ivy and others will really benefit from this. You can get shield grabbed during the landing lag, but not in the middle of the move.

And some of the things below the red line might be scrapped depending on the codes. Like I really feel that we don't need to change the short hops and stuff like that. Some things might be negligible depending on how the foundation of the game acts. I took off increase the SJR window because without a buffer system, SJR doesn't work and we can't have the buffer system. We need accuracy with this more technical game and the buffer system screws that all over.

 

[Revven]

There's more problems that come with balancing characters though than adding mechanics to the game. Since there's a 256 code limit, not everything can be fixed. When you fix one character, you don't know what you've just changed until you try it. When you try it, you notice some MORE balancing issues that need to be worked out. That takes even more lines and testing. We don't have the space for any amount of balancing issues that could come from changing character's priorities or range. I wouldn't mind changing the knockback of certain moves to make characters HAVE kill moves that are viable or nerfing some character's ridiculous speedy aerials (*cough*MK*cough*) or lengthening someone's tether range (*cough*Link*cough*) But, when you get into priority, move range, and anything with hitboxes, it gets messy and would only be worth getting into to see what WOULD happen if such and such were to be changed for this to this in order to make said character better.

Edit: Of course, we can always test stuff out, we're not going to rule out character-balancing just because of a theory. Just... depends on the space.

 

[Finns7]

Link + others wont be immediatly grabed when he does his 3 hit unless timed right which is how it should be, also whats this talk of buffers? Will ganon be able to buffer in attacks after the sideB?


and falco I agree with you, its only going to add more disagreements if we go into char balancing unless its really really needed.

 

[Team Giza]

Shieldstun will probably be gone by increasing the %age of it. This will probably help slow characters more than fast ones. It will also increase the diversity of moves used for approaching since moves with middle strength knockback that is hard to combo off of might have a lot of uses in approach now.

 

[kupo15]

I want to let you all know that Igglyboo will be helping us with the shield stun and PS codes since PW is busy. He PMed me back today saying he would love to help. I hope we can get them soon.

 

[zxeon]

I want to let you all know that Igglyboo will be helping us with the shield stun and PS codes since PW is busy. He PMed me back today saying he would love to help. I hope we can get them soon.

Sounds awesome.

 

[Alopex]

Let's make sure that you still get shield pushed while you're in shieldstun.

I don't want to see Angel Ring become an automatic shield breaker.

 

[kupo15]

lol. Im sure your still get pushed, but it probably will eat up a good chunk of your shield if your stupid enough to shield it

 

[Wind Owl]

Brawl jabs with shieldstun are going to be ******** shield pressure. Everyone's jab is ridiculous.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Brawl jabs with shieldstun are going to be ******** shield pressure. Everyone's jab is ridiculous.

Not really, Ganon's jab wouldn't be good for shield pressure. Neither would Marth's, Sonic's...can't think of anymore right now, but there are some jabs that wouldn't be good at this.

But characters used Jabs to shield pressure in melee and there weren't too many problems. The Mario bros had rediculously amazing grabs, as well as Link, Young Link, Kirby, and a lot of low tier other low tiers, but they weren't exactly the gods of Shield pressure (curse you Fox, Shiek, and Marth).

 

[Wind Owl]

.... Yeah, I just went down the list and those 3 are like the ONLY ones that don't have good shield pressure jabs. Except maybe like, Bowser, Zelda, and Charizard. A lot of characters have tilts that would be really annoying too. Zamus basically has a shine in terms of shield pressure, lol.

 

[KayJay]

I guess Sonic could still shieldpressure with jab cancel to death repeating.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, it's really not that big a deal. Those characters have to succesfully approach first, and even once they're inside they have to not only be able to pressure your shield, but actually cover your retreat options as well. Shield pressure is useless if rolling or spotdodging gets you away for free.

Jabs will just make shield grabbing ultimately less useful, which I find to be a welcome change.

I guess Sonic could still shieldpressure with jab cancel to death repeating.

Sonic's jab has a lot of lag though. It comes out fast (3 frames), but it has too much ending lag to really be used for shield pressuring (think of Ganondorf).

However, Sonic will still have an amazing pressure game with his Nair and Dair after shield stun is added. He will not jab after landing, but instead simply run behing his opponent before their grab can come out, making a very effective cross up strategy.

 

[Wind Owl]

Zamus might actually become kind of beastly. Fair or Nair on your sheild and then jab, Dsmash punishes spotdodge and leads to a nasty combo; dash attack, blaster, running Usmash, and grab all punish rolls and lead to combos, and forward B punishes rolls and kills...

Oh, also, CC was a good way to get out of jab pressure in Melee, and now that's gone.

 

[Almas]

You are vulnerable during the opening frames of a roll (and of course a jump), I believe. If shieldstun is too high, the time in between shieldstun ending and the next hit coming in will be minimal. I think that's Wind Owl's point.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah, basically. That, and if you get hit with the first part of a jab, bad things happen to you.

Ooh, can anyone test if Zamus' jab combo leads to anything in 11.xx%? Kind of like Gentleman?

EDIT: Oh wow, I just watched a random ZSS match and it looks like it'll lead to tech chase. That's just ridiculous.

 

[plasmatorture]

ZSS's jab combo seemed to be a good opener at 11% for me, you have lots of options out of it and is a staple in the way I play ZSS in Brawl+.

Not that I play her that often but it seemed promising.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh, also, CC was a good way to get out of jab pressure in Melee, and now that's gone.

CC did not effect jab pressure at all.

And that's a good point about Zamus's fair (I think Nair might push you too far back). But you have to remember that just running at an opponent with an aerial is not that safe for Zamus. Approaching with her is not going to be easy, so I wouldn't expect her to be as much of a beast as you'd think.

And grabbing to punish a roll after jabbing their shield doesn't seem like it would work. It might work if they roll behind you, but if they roll away they should be done rolling before you can dash grab them (most rolls anyway).

But of course that depends on how much shield stun we're talking about. If Zamus can actually move before the stun from the jab is over (that would actually take a ridiculous amount of shieldstun) then yes I could see that being a problem.

 

[kupo15]

well keep in mind that Magus said that there are two shield stun constants, weak and strong hits. So we won't make jab shield stun that powerful. And usually the Infinite Jab thing is never good and leaves you open. Also, shield recharge much faster than before so I don't see the shield pressure be too bad.

 

[SketchHurricane]

In my entire time with Brawl, I can count on one hand the times my shield has been in jeopardy. The concerns aren't unfounded, but trust me it would be pretty hard to break the shield pressure game ^_^

Besides, I'm getting real sick of dashing shield grabs being so good.