COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Revven]

For research purpose we should definitely get a code that will color coat hitboxes for further understanding of characters.

I don't know how feasible that would be, seeing as the game lacks a debug menu or any sort of debug in its debug folder. Perhaps it is in the memory but, it is very unlikely if nothing exists in the folder to grab it from. I could see this as not being feasible but, I wouldn't know for 100% sure.

 

[cobaltblue]

Yes, you could force an item to spawn on a certain spot. If it's within the coding somewhere, it could be done (and it likely can since there are multiple spawning points on stages). You're just telling the game to drop X item here at the certain X timeframe. You could even change the frequency for how long until the next one drops, say, 30 seconds later as long as it is in the coding somewhere.

Now wouldn't one possible obstetrical to this be each stage having a unique set of codes for where the items spawn? I know no one here has looked for such codes yet but it seems to me that you would break the line limit were you to implement such codes on top of the Brawl+ ones.

 

[Almas]

I would suspect that each map would refer to the possible spawn locations with fairly straightfoward IDs (0,1,2 etc.). Also likely is that if they do have a uniform method of identifying the spawn locations, they will probably be numbered in such a way that the most 'balanced' spawn location always has a similar number across all stages.

Purely hypothetical, of course.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Of course, that's assuming that we even know for certain that items spawn from preset points on the map; as far as I know, we only assume this is the case because no one has actually seen the game code. People have also hypothesised that the game procedurally generates spawn points based on who's "winning" the match, giving players at a disadvantage items more frequently and at a closer proximity.

As far as assigning spawn points straightforward ID's, my experience as a student of coding tells me that the more simple a coding project is, the more obfuscated the coder is required to make it out of sheer contempt for his fellow man. So don't assume.

 

[Shadic]

not nerfed ledges T_T....unless it's for the sake of *cough* melee hookshot

Exactly. I think one of the most important things that hasn't been mentioned very much are the tethers that hone onto the ledge.

If people want, we could still have them hone to the ledge, but if the ledge is too far away, allow hooking onto any vertical surface as well.

 

[kupo15]

Exactly. I think one of the most important things that hasn't been mentioned very much are the tethers that hone onto the ledge.

If people want, we could still have them hone to the ledge, but if the ledge is too far away, allow hooking onto any vertical surface as well.

I find it hard to believe that having both would be possible especially given how short they are. It would probably be one or the other

 

[ChronoPenguin]

melee hookshot is god...I mean.....way more skillfull than Brawl.... sure some are like.....oh really but by how much Mr. Manual L-canceling is gay.

Go Hookshot say...Brawl Final Destination, while some dude try's to edgeguard/hog you >.> ....I wanna see this happen T_T

 

[Alopex]

Wait, those Pokemon Trainer codes... are they perfect?

I recall the first code for the individual Pokemon, by spunit262 was loaded with potential corruptions.

Are those two codes by Phantom Wings totally safe now?

 

[Revven]

Are those two codes by Phantom Wings totally safe now?

Yes, they've BEEN safe because they don't make PT a WHOLE different character. He's the same but, now you can have no fatigue and it doesn't force you to switch when you die (BUT, you CAN still switch Pokemon if you so choose to).

 

[Alopex]

Yes, they've BEEN safe because they don't make PT a WHOLE different character. He's the same but, now you can have no fatigue and it doesn't force you to switch when you die (BUT, you CAN still switch Pokemon if you so choose to).

Awesome. That's what I've been dreaming of since March. This is too good.

How does Phantom Wings always know exactly how to do everything perfectly?

 

[Pr0phetic]

Awesome. That's what I've been dreaming of since March. This is too good.

How does Phantom Wings always know exactly how to do everything perfectly?

He knows binary and how to code.

 

[cobaltblue]

Of course, that's assuming that we even know for certain that items spawn from preset points on the map; as far as I know, we only assume this is the case because no one has actually seen the game code. People have also hypothesised that the game procedurally generates spawn points based on who's "winning" the match, giving players at a disadvantage items more frequently and at a closer proximity.

As far as assigning spawn points straightforward ID's, my experience as a student of coding tells me that the more simple a coding project is, the more obfuscated the coder is required to make it out of sheer contempt for his fellow man. So don't assume.

O that is a good point. I'm no SWB guru but I do seem to recall Sakai back during the weekly updates talking about people starting with finial smashes and items slightly favoring them if they were losing.

 

[Wind Owl]

FALCOWN.... BAWMP!

 

[kupo15]

phew, glad you got that off your chest! ^_^

 

[Me_Aludes]

I'm really against "No auto sweetspot ledges" code. It would only affect chars with crappy recovery. If you see the top ones:

Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

Only Falco would be affected. MK, Snake, DDD and ROB can return to the stage without needing a ledge, while G&W wouldn't really mind because of his upB and his great aerials.

But...

Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

Puff & Sonic aren't affected. What about Link? Ganondorf? Mario? Lucas? Ness?
They would become even worse -.-'

Moreover, we would need lots of exceptions to this code. Bowser & DK need Auto-Sweetspot. Thether recoveries. Also IC. Puff & Yoshi (egg & sing canceling). And some other chars' recoveries need auto-sweetspots, like Diddy Kong.

Finally, from my point of view, this code isn't worth it. With MAD, or a "one BAD only" code, edgeguarding is yet possible. I really don't care about it.

That left us with a problem: planking. It's stupid, easy, and kills fun.

Here's an idea I had:
When you grab a ledge, you'll gain some invincibility frames. Let's do that, when you regrab it again, without landing or getting hit, you'll have NO invincibility frames at all. So, if you try to camp and edge, you would take the risk of getting ****in' pwned by a well timed Luigi's d-tilt/some smash/ some stupid disjointed hitbox.

Kills planking, adds some depth, needs no char-specific exceptions, and makes Luigi's d-tilt useful! Everything is fine! Also, not sure about it, but it may use less lines of code than the no auto-sweetspot code (because of the exceptions).

What do you think? I think it's worth the try. If someone codes it...

 

[kupo15]

If someone enables the auto sweetspot, then they are more than close enough to recover thus, that code won't affect their recovery in that regard. No one needs auto sweet spot. We have been without it in 64 and melee. Tethers will not be affected since they are programmed differently.

 

[Me_Aludes]

Ok. I can accept that, autosweetspoting is not really needed. But it helps more to low tier chars than it does to the top ones (in terms of recovery). So if you disable it, you'll making the gaps between tiers bigger, and that's not I want, and I don't think anyone would want that.

Also you ignored the rest of my post. I think my edge idea would be more effective against planking than the no auto-sweetspot code. Maybe both could work fine too.
I wish I could program codes by myself -.-'

 

[kupo15]

Ok. I can accept that, autosweetspoting is not really needed. But it helps more to low tier chars than it does to the top ones (in terms of recovery). So if you disable it, you'll making the gaps between tiers bigger, and that's not I want, and I don't think anyone would want that.

Also you ignored the rest of my post. I think my edge idea would be more effective against planking than the no auto-sweetspot code. Maybe both could work fine too.
I wish I could program codes by myself -.-'

I really don't think it makes the gap between good recoveries and bad recoveries bigger or if so, not by much. Can you give me specific examples of why you think so? I think that a gravity change without vertical compensation is something that will really increase the gap of recoveries since not every character can physically make it...

About your planking solution, yes its a good idea and it has been talked about before. We should consider that when the time comes. I feel there are a lot more important codes to deal with before then. I can put up with planking, but some of this other stuff I feel should have precedent at this time...

 

[Problem2]

auto sweet spot doesn't affect the distance which a character can recover. Infact, characters with better recoveries benefit more from auto-sweet spot because they don't have to space their recoveries.

The problem with auto-sweet spots is that characters can get just barely beneath the ledge and use their recovery move. You can't really punish them there, so they get a free recovery opportunity. This doesn't help out characters with poor recoveries and just barely grab the ledge anyways from the distance they recover.

 

[Revven]

Also, characters who COULDN'T attack with their Up B to keep edgeguarders away like they could in Melee, in theory, now CAN. Link, for example, his recovery sucks and one of the reasons is because it doesn't keep edgeguarders away when he Up Bs towards the edge. Because of the autosweetspot, he sweetspots on and is left quite vulnerable before he grabs the ledge AND after. Of course, not very many characters have this problem like Link does but, it would certainly help him in this aspect.

If need be, we could just increase how high his Up B takes him, either that or allow him to do two Up Bs.

BUT! It is better to have the code to test than theorycrafting so, what you've been saying may sound bad on paper but may actually be good in practice.

 

[Me_Aludes]

I won't make a list of all the chars & tiers, but I listed some.

This for top tiers:
MK: Doesn't really need to grab the ledge to recover. Gliding, 5 jumps, amazing aerials.
Snake: His upB doesn't autograb the ledge.
DDD: Same as Snake.
Mr. Game & Watch: Ok, Mr. Game & Watch would be nerfed. But no way as other chars would. He has really good vertical recovery, his aerials have great priority and his upB doesn't put him in helpless state, so he can easily return to the stage without any ledge.
Falco: Ok. His recovery would be nerfed.
ROB: Doesn't need auto-sweetspot. ****, he can fly.

And now low ones:
Lucas: His recovery would be affected, or at least harder.
Ness: His recovery would be affected, or at least harder.
Mario: His recovery would be affected, or at least harder.
PT: Squirtle would be affected. Def. not Ivisaur, 50/50 with Charizard (3 jumps+glide, but he has not very good vertical recovery).
Samus: Not really affected because of her incredible second jump + thether, but still.
Yoshi: Dunno.
Sonic: No changes for him.
Jigglypuff: No changes.
Ganon, Link, CF: They already have crappy recovery. This would only do it... impossible.

I dunno. Brawl+ tiers won't obviously be the same as Brawl, but we have Brawl to guide us. And I actually think this won't work. So other codes should have more priority than "no auto sweetspot". Nerfing powershields, shield stun modifier or no knockback decay.
Just my opinion.

 

[storm92]

As you said, Brawl+ tiers will be nothing like regular Brawl. CF is low on Brawl, yet I easily see him being High/Top tier material in Brawl+, and this goes for Sonic as well.
G+W isn't nerfed too badly, as with almost every character. Making the ledges have no auto-sweetspot means that it actually takes some skill and thinking to recover, and gives us more of an edgeguarding game which as far as I can see, Brawl+ needs. In Brawl, the only timing is if the opponent decides to edgehog, then you have to time it correctly and make sure they don't successfully edgehog you. With no auto sweetspot, you have to decided where, when, and how to land as you recover based on your current position and opponent's. Sounds more competitive to me.

 

[Wind Owl]

You guys are acting like the ledge won't be there anymore... It's not like there's occupied rolling like there was in Melee; any recovery with a hitbox can still get to the ledge just fine. There's just a chance you'll stick above it if you don't space it right. Sheesh.

 

[kupo15]

auto sweet spot doesn't affect the distance which a character can recover. Infact, characters with better recoveries benefit more from auto-sweet spot because they don't have to space their recoveries.

The problem with auto-sweet spots is that characters can get just barely beneath the ledge and use their recovery move. You can't really punish them there, so they get a free recovery opportunity. This doesn't help out characters with poor recoveries and just barely grab the ledge anyways from the distance they recover.

QFT

I never thought that sakurai put something in to make better recoveries more powerful

This for top tiers:
MK: Doesn't really need to grab the ledge to recover. Gliding, 5 jumps, amazing aerials.
.

MK will get a little nerfed. His shuttle loop wont sweet spot like it does now which also means his reverse shuttle will be much weaker. He can't use it way below the stage anymore. Also, I don't think his drill will be a viable recovery option and trust me, MK's use this a lot..

The shields are first, then its the ledges. They both will be asked in the same PM.

 

[Wind Owl]

Why on Earth wouldn't his drill be viable? It doesn't auto-sweetspot anyway!

 

[kupo15]

Why on Earth wouldn't his drill be viable? It doesn't auto-sweetspot anyway!

It does after the drill goes away and he gets kicked up. This is still technically in the middle of his move which counts as auto sweetspot since he is still a lot of frames away from blinking. You can even grab the ledge before this "kick back"

It would be equivalent to one asking how Fox and Falco's illusion is not auto sweet spot when it is.

 

[Wind Owl]

No, that's ledge canceling, which is completely different and was in Melee.

 

[kupo15]

Im not talking about ledge canceling

 

[Wind Owl]

Eh, maybe I'm wrong. I don't really play MK (or Brawl, for that matter). But even so, it doesn't seem like his drill would be nerfed at all.

 

[Dan_X]

I don't think auto sweet spotting should be removed... Every character can rise above the ledge nullifying the auto sweet spot if the joystick is held at a downward angle. This way it's strategic in that you can choose whether or not to auto sweetspot. To me it doesn't make sense to systematically remove auto sweet spotting as it helps some characters more than others, why deny characters who need it more than others?

I just think it's a waste of coding space, and otherwise lame.

As you said, Brawl+ tiers will be nothing like regular Brawl. CF is low on Brawl, yet I easily see him being High/Top tier material in Brawl+...

Despite Falcon's wealth of comboing potential I highly doubt that's enough to consider him top tier. He still lacks priority, as such, I don't see it possible for him to reach top tier (or even high). Most characters keep him at bay with moves that greatly out prioritize his attacks. For example, Falco's short hopped double laser, or even single short hopped lasers make his approach game an extremely difficult one. Then there are characters like Marth who have no projectiles yet a simple Fair will out prioritize most everything Falcon can dish out.

There's simply no way Falcon can be a candidate for high tier.. and especially not top tier, if he had more priority sure, but that's not the case. Every character gets better with hitstun some more noticeably though than others. Take Fox and Sheik for example, both were mid tier before, but with hitstun there's no denying the fact that they are top tier quality now. Now let's pit Sheik against Falcon, she can combo him into oblivion, and she can easily stop all of his approaches with spacing and her tilts. It really becomes a one sided match. Trust me, my friend plays Falcon and doesn't see it possible to plausibly defeat a competent Sheik (such as myself) or a consistent basis.

Obviously Fox and Sheik are just a few of the characters who noticeably jump tiers, though I'm sure many others do as well. Captain Falcon for example looks to be a character that was meant to play in a world with hitstun, as such, he's probably higher on the tiers. To say the least, he's certainly not bottom tier at this point.

In addition, Brawl+ actually has more characters than Brawl, as far as tiers are concerned. Thanks to the pokemon infinite stamina and no switching upon KO codes Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are all very capable stand alone characters. We have 39 characters to rank instead of Brawl's 37. Originally we had no choice but to view Pokemon Trainer as a single character thanks to switching pokemon upon death, and the fact that switching was necessary thanks to stamina. We had to consider him a unified character, 3 in 1. Now, thanks to each pokemon's new found viability we can consider each one there own character. Similar to how we treat Zelda/Sheik as their own characters because they don't HAVE to switch in the match, they can be played alone, we MUST now treat Pokemon Trainer the same way. With that said, who's to say that Squirtle isn't high/top tier material?

 

[Wind Owl]

......... When have you ever chosen not to auto-sweetspot? Seriously, I'd like to know.

 

[Dan_X]

......... When have you ever chosen not to auto-sweetspot? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Falco's Up+B, as I hit the edge guarder when they least expect it... It should be a choice not the rule. If Falco always rose above the ledge that could be his undoing... the same can be said for many other characters.

Also, if you don't consciously make the choice to not auto sweet spot then why are you a candidate for the removal of auto sweet spotting in the first place? If you cared enough wouldn't you already be negating the sweet spotting?

Seriously, a code such as this is really stupid. It can be done by making a choice and pressing down, and some characters may find benefits in this while others may not...

 

[Problem2]

Maybe they want to take out the auto-sweet spot because it gives people a benefit. Of course no one is really ever not going to auto-sweet spot because it's a much better option more than 99% of the time. Without auto-sweet spotting, the ledge guarding game would be crazy.

 

[matt4300]

yes but just about every low tier has to have it. especially link, falcon, samus, bowser, mario, lucas, ness, then theres the hier theres that really dont need it at all exept falco... and they really dont need anything to make them more gay @_@ especialy with hitstun still favoring the high tiers over teh lows

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Despite Falcon's wealth of comboing potential I highly doubt that's enough to consider him top tier. He still lacks priority, as such, I don't see it possible for him to reach top tier (or even high). Most characters keep him at bay with moves that greatly out prioritize his attacks. For example, Falco's short hopped double laser, or even single short hopped lasers make his approach game an extremely difficult one. Then there are characters like Marth who have no projectiles yet a simple Fair will out prioritize most everything Falcon can dish out.

There's simply no way Falcon can be a candidate for high tier.. and especially not top tier, if he had more priority sure, but that's not the case. Every character gets better with hitstun some more noticeably though than others. Take Fox and Sheik for example, both were mid tier before, but with hitstun there's no denying the fact that they are top tier quality now. Now let's pit Sheik against Falcon, she can combo him into oblivion, and she can easily stop all of his approaches with spacing and her tilts. It really becomes a one sided match. Trust me, my friend plays Falcon and doesn't see it possible to plausibly defeat a competent Sheik (such as myself) or a consistent basis.

SPOILERS:

Falcon suffered from low priority in Melee, too. Sheik was able to combo him to hell and back in Melee as well, and ftilt made the fight really easy in that as well. Guess what? His speed and combos still brought him up to high tier. Fox might move up, but the fact that most the cast will be killing him at 30% (starting the combo then, ending at 50-70%) will make it hard for him to hit top tier. Sheik still won't be top, even with needle cancelling.

There's simply no way you know what you're talking about. You probably don't think Jiggz is that great, either, huh?

Falcon's biggest problem is his shield. It comes out waaaaaaay late from a dash. That's what will hurt him, in the end.

 

[Wind Owl]

Falco's Up+B, as I hit the edge guarder when they least expect it... It should be a choice not the rule. If Falco always rose above the ledge that could be his undoing... the same can be said for many other characters.

Also, if you don't consciously make the choice to not auto sweet spot then why are you a candidate for the removal of auto sweet spotting in the first place? If you cared enough wouldn't you already be negating the sweet spotting?

Seriously, a code such as this is really stupid. It can be done by making a choice and pressing down, and some characters may find benefits in this while others may not...

No, you don't seem to understand the point. It's not to bestow additional options, it's to FORCE people to not auto-sweetspot so that edgeguarding is no longer a joke. You've mentioned some pretty good uses for not sweetspotting, so it's not ALWAYS the inferior option, but for the mostpart, it puts more pressure on the player recovering, as it should be.

 

[Team Giza]

In addition, Brawl+ actually has more characters than Brawl, as far as tiers are concerned. Thanks to the pokemon infinite stamina and no switching upon KO codes Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are all very capable stand alone characters. We have 39 characters to rank instead of Brawl's 37. Originally we had no choice but to view Pokemon Trainer as a single character thanks to switching pokemon upon death, and the fact that switching was necessary thanks to stamina. We had to consider him a unified character, 3 in 1. Now, thanks to each pokemon's new found viability we can consider each one there own character. Similar to how we treat Zelda/Sheik as their own characters because they don't HAVE to switch in the match, they can be played alone, we MUST now treat Pokemon Trainer the same way. With that said, who's to say that Squirtle isn't high/top tier material?

Wait, are we really actually considering using those codes in Brawl+? I thought they were just stuff for fun...

 

[kupo15]

I don't think auto sweet spotting should be removed... Every character can rise above the ledge nullifying the auto sweet spot if the joystick is held at a downward angle. This way it's strategic in that you can choose whether or not to auto sweetspot. To me it doesn't make sense to systematically remove auto sweet spotting as it helps some characters more than others, why deny characters who need it more than others?

I just think it's a waste of coding space, and otherwise lame.

So your happy to watch people recover mindlessly to the ledge as you stand at the ledge because can do nothing about it? This is one of the main reasons why people get back from almost anywhere on the map.

Falco's Up+B, as I hit the edge guarder when they least expect it... It should be a choice not the rule. If Falco always rose above the ledge that could be his undoing... the same can be said for many other characters.

That is the point...to punish laziness when coming back. With this code, your putting a skill back in the game...sweet spotting. This is a skill so you don't poke your head up and get punished.

Also, if you don't consciously make the choice to not auto sweet spot then why are you a candidate for the removal of auto sweet spotting in the first place? If you cared enough wouldn't you already be negating the sweet spotting?

Absolutely not. Why would I want to make it harder for myself to recover when my opponent won't do the same. Playing with honor like this doesn't make you better and its just stupid to disadvantage yourself for the sake of whats "right" when no one else will do that. Its something thats stupidly in the game that I use not because I want to, but because I have too.

When we have the code that disables this, then no one has a choice but to go past the stage so its equal. Then the choice is whether you want to sweet spot or not since the game isn't doing it for you anymore. It adds more depth to the game and its a piece the game is severely lacking..

Wait, are we really actually considering using those codes in Brawl+? I thought they were just stuff for fun...

I hope not..

 

[Dark Sonic]

yes but just about every low tier has to have it. especially link, falcon, samus, bowser, mario, lucas, ness, then theres the hier theres that really dont need it at all exept falco... and they really dont need anything to make them more gay @_@ especialy with hitstun still favoring the high tiers over teh lows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

Learn to recover.

 

[matt4300]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

Learn to recover.

ah yes i love that vid to bad its not brawl >_>'