COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[MuBa]

Personally I think it would be a great idea to put in the No-switch and Infinite Stamina code in Brawl+

That gives people who wanted to specialize in one Pokemon without the burden of learning another would become a good treat. I wouldn't mind playing as Squirtle, Charizard, or Ivysaur alone at all. Heck I'd definitely put one of them in at least my tertiary characters.

 

[Starscream]

ah yes i love that vid to bad its not brawl >_>'

Doesn't mean Brawl+ can't ever be that awesome.

 

[kupo15]

Doesn't mean Brawl+ can't ever be that awesome.

QFT

Brawl+ is severely lacking that part of the game. And for all you people who think the ledge game will be as dominant and focused as melee was, think again.

Melee
-Higher gravity
-Harder to recover
-Ledge roll occupancy
-No reverse grabbing
-Small grabbing radius
-One time air dodge

Brawl
-Recovering is easier
-Floaty
-No ledge roll occupancy
-Reverse grabbing
-Bigger grab radius
-Infinite air dodging

And btw, we will also include a code so that diddy, ness and lucas don't crash into walls and slide up them instead.

On the talk about the ledges, I have a question about teching. Is ledge teching as shown in that vid in brawl teching? Can you SDI on the last frame of hitlag into the wall and tech that?

Another question regarding hitlag. Darksonic made a good point that if we reduce hitlag, then the reaction for DI will be quicker thus good DI will be harder which I think is good. What does everyone else think? Should we get a hit lag modifier?

 

[PKNintendo]

Looking good! Looks like Ness and Wario can finally take it easy.

And DJC for Ness? Perfect!

 

[Me_Aludes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

Learn to recover.

As far as characters like MK can just fly above the ledge and ignore it, Brawl won't ever be as awesome as Melee. Recovering is really easier in Brawl not just because of auto-sweetspot.

Also Ankoku stated you can't SDI into a wall colision, so wallteching attacks when they hit you while in the edge is not possible in Brawl (I may be wrong). This may could be hacked, but other codes have the priority.

BTW, You Must Recover! is one of the best Melee videos ever :D

 

[Wind Owl]

Also Ankoku stated you can't SDI into a wall colision, so wallteching attacks when they hit you while in the edge is not possible in Brawl (I may be wrong). This may could be hacked, but other codes have the priority.

... A certain video recorded by Ankoku seems to imply otherwise...

 

[kangaroo]

QFT

Brawl+ is severely lacking that part of the game. And for all you people who think the ledge game will be as dominant and focused as melee was, think again.

Melee
-Higher gravity
-Harder to recover
-Ledge roll occupancy
-No reverse grabbing
-Small grabbing radius

Brawl
-Recovering is easier
-Floaty
-No ledge roll occupancy
-Reverse grabbing
-Bigger grab radius

And btw, we will also include a code so that diddy, ness and lucas don't crash into walls and slide up them instead.

On the talk about the ledges, I have a question about teching. Is ledge teching as shown in that vid in brawl teching? Can you SDI on the last frame of hitlag into the wall and tech that?

Another question regarding hitlag. Darksonic made a good point that if we reduce hitlag, then the reaction for DI will be quicker thus good DI will be harder which I think is good. What does everyone else think? Should we get a hit lag modifier?

Don't forget about BAD for the brawl list...

 

[kupo15]

Right

Fixed

 

[Magus420]

I'm pretty sure it's not the SDI that caused the wall collision, but the knockback of the f-smash in the direction of the wall. In other words, if the f-smash was done to the left and sending away from the edge like you would be hit when edgeguarded, I don't believe that could have worked.

 

[kupo15]

So how should I explain that to PW? And as far as making a hit lag modifier, would it be as easy as showing him a long hitlag move "marth tippered fsmash" and ask if we can adjust that value for all moves with hitlag?

 

[Starscream]

Sweetspotted knee and Zelda kicks are pretty good examples of hit lag as well.

 

[Adapt]

There is one advantage to having a brawl ledge game (with its slower fall speed and better recovery):

Completely off-stage battles

I find it a lot of fun to jump off the stage after people and keep hitting them and attempting to recover and when I do recover, jump out to attack them again. I do it a lot with sheik, ZSS, Jiggs, MK and ROB. And you can also do it with more characters but I don't really use them (Charizard, DDD, Kirby, Pit, Sonic, Samus etc).

I'm fine with shrinking the large ledge-snap area so it takes more skill, but I happen to enjoy having really good recoveries and slower fall speed (compared to melee)

 

[SGX]

No, I don't think a hitlag modifier is necessary, or should be any sort of priority.

Why do people want to just make things harder? It's not going to make the game more fun.

 

[Dan_X]

Personally I think it would be a great idea to put in the No-switch and Infinite Stamina code in Brawl+

That gives people who wanted to specialize in one Pokemon without the burden of learning another would become a good treat. I wouldn't mind playing as Squirtle, Charizard, or Ivysaur alone at all. Heck I'd definitely put one of them in at least my tertiary characters.

I agree, I think this would be a great aspect of Brawl+. I don't see why these codes would be "just for fun" as I think they open the door for PT, who before was just not as well off in comparison to the rest of the cast..

 

[kupo15]

Question. How does this sound as an explaination to ledges when the time comes? Im having a hard time simplifying this particular code since Idk what aspects of the auto sweet spot code should be affected.

Disable ledge grabbing while rising

When every character jumps, they can't grab the ledge unless you move down after the jump is done. However, Up b's and certain specials act differently.

Marth is the best example. If you up B with marth close to the ledge, you will see that he snaps to the ledge in the middle of his up b which is bad. Instead, hold down after doing the up b and you will notice that Marth goes past the ledge. We want a code that only allows you to only grab the ledge on the way down This is the effect we want but its not necessarily how we want it coded.

If you look at Wario, his up b does what we want and this should be applied to every move in the game that acts like a recovery.

However there are some things to keep an eye out for since I don't know how they are programmed:

1. Make sure that characters like Fox, Falco, and Pika can grab the ledge at anytime during their up b ONLY if they are moving down if they approach the ledge from above

2. Make sure that this code does not affect tether recoveries such as Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, or Ivy. I don't believe it will though because I am pretty sure that tether recoveries are programmed differently

This seems like a simple code but I am really confused as to how to approach it.

 

[Team Giza]

I agree, I think this would be a great aspect of Brawl+. I don't see why these codes would be "just for fun" as I think they open the door for PT, who before was just meh.

But the only reason he was "meh" was because all the pokemon sucked. I like the idea of having just for fun codes but I don't like the idea of letting people get rid of a character's unique aspects.

 

[Dan_X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc After watching this video I see what you guys want to to with the ledge. I back any code that will make the game more like this!

Still though, I would actually play Pokemon Trainer if I could play just Squirtle, or Charizard, whatever. I think we SHOULD have infinite stamina / no switching out for PT... I think it makes sense. It's exciting, and something that would make Brawl+ that much better than Brawl.

But the only reason he was "meh" was because all the pokemon sucked. I like the idea of having just for fun codes but I don't like the idea of letting people get rid of a character's unique aspects.

Call it what you want, "unique" or "gimmicky" but the fact that the Pokemon Trainer was FORCED to switch and had to deal with 2mins of stamina (which is further decreased in time depending on what attacks are carried out -- smash attacks would take of X amount of seconds for example) is rediculous. All a player has to do to overcome PT is either wither him so that his stamina is low, as such his knockback / damage drops tremendously then take advantage of low stamina. If PT tries to change at an inopportune time it's a free KO-- or at least free damage. It's stupid, no other character has to play with these bleak limitations... why should the PT? It's flat out gimmicky, and I don't know why anyone would not want an independent PT in Brawl+..

 

[Team Giza]

Should we just make it so if the aerial momentum is greater or equal to 0 then you won't sweetspot? That way as soon as you start coming down then characters will grab the ledge but if they moving up at all or are perfectly horizontal then they won't.

 

[Dan_X]

Should we just make it so if the aerial momentum is greater or equal to 0 then you won't sweetspot? That way as soon as you start coming down then characters will grab the ledge but if they moving up at all or are perfectly horizontal then they won't.

Would Falco and Fox still sweetspot the ledge from an illusion (horizontal)???

 

[kupo15]

no, they would act like melee again. You have to understand, sweet spotting still exists, we are not taking it out. What we are doing is forcing you to manually sweet spot yourself instead of the game doing it for you. It would be similar if brawl had auto teching. We are not getting rid of teching, we are making you do the work instead of the game which is the way it should be...

 

[Phyvo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc After watching this video I see what you guys want to to with the ledge. I back any code that will make the game more like this!

Still though, I would actually play Pokemon Trainer if I could play just Squirtle, or Charizard, whatever. I think we SHOULD have infinite stamina / no switching out for PT... I think it makes sense. It's exciting, and something that would make Brawl+ that much better than Brawl.



Call it what you want, "unique" or "gimmicky" but the fact that the Pokemon Trainer was FORCED to switch and had to deal with 2mins of stamina (which is further decreased in time depending on what attacks are carried out -- smash attacks would take of X amount of seconds for example) is rediculous. All a player has to do to overcome PT is either wither him so that his stamina is low, as such his knockback / damage drops tremendously then take advantage of low stamina. If PT tries to change at an inopportune time it's a free KO-- or at least free damage. It's stupid, no other character has to play with these bleak limitations... why should the PT? It's flat out gimmicky, and I don't know why anyone would not want an independent PT in Brawl+..

dang this computer for eating my post. Here's the short of it.

Stamina seems to be where most of your complaints lie. It should be possible to just have no stamina, and with no stamina you are never forced to switch when it would be dangerous.

If you remove automatic switching on death in addition to no stamina, you will kill PT as a main in favor of individual pokemon. They won't be used much together anymore.

I think we should ask PT mainers first before we replace their main with three different pokemon in Brawl+. Hypothetically, we wouldn't replace Lucario with Mewtwo without asking lucario mainers, would we?

 

[kupo15]

the problem is, last i checked, there were a lot of "im a squirtle main" people..

 

[Phyvo]

Well, from what I've seen there may still be a "I main squirtle" crowd, but a good number of PTs do their best to work around having to be good with three characters. All the more reason to ask them rather than simply guess at what they want.

 

[leafgreen386]

Or... how about giving all PT players the best of both worlds? No stamina is used regardless, and if a player wants the auto-switch upon death (or doesn't want it, whichever would be easiest), have them use a button activator like holding shield when selecting the character.

 

[Osi]

I agree, I think this would be a great aspect of Brawl+. I don't see why these codes would be "just for fun" as I think they open the door for PT, who before was just not as well off in comparison to the rest of the cast..

It would be a cool code to have in, if there's room. I certainly would not want to leave out global codes that impact the game more than a code for one character. Sorry if that seems harsh, but if it's MAD/shield stun/ledge sweetspot off versus PT codes.... I'd take any of those 3. I don't see it as a just for fun code, but more of a if there is room code. I would like it to be there though, a person in my crew uses PT.

 

[Dan_X]

dang this computer for eating my post. Here's the short of it.

Stamina seems to be where most of your complaints lie. It should be possible to just have no stamina, and with no stamina you are never forced to switch when it would be dangerous.

If you remove automatic switching on death in addition to no stamina, you will kill PT as a main in favor of individual pokemon. They won't be used much together anymore.

I think we should ask PT mainers first before we replace their main with three different pokemon in Brawl+. Hypothetically, we wouldn't replace Lucario with Mewtwo without asking lucario mainers, would we?

I understand your point but let's be realistic for a moment--- your point is lost in the fact that players can play how they want.

The separation of the pokemon will just give the PT the option to either switch or not switch. Simple as that. It's not replacing the characters, there by creating a dilemma for PT mainers. What about the individual who wants to play as Squirtle but only Squirtle? Do you laugh and say.. "ha sorry bud, you have to main the two other pokemon as well, as you have NO CHOICE!! "

The fact that they can still change whenever they want and WHENEVER they want as opposed to when they're forced to because of stamina is worth the change alone. If anything, PT mainers should embrace these codes because they can now get so much more out of their character! There character that is still three in one...

 

[plasmatorture]

I think for those who want to use all three pokemon, there should be a way to allow that.

Personally I favor the no stamina/no autoswap codes as I generally only want to play as Squirtle or Charizard. However, I like the ability to swap. I think a code that reduced swap time (if possible?) would be excellent. A similar code could be nice for people who really want to play both Zelda and Sheik I guess.

I'd also really like to see a code with one time use MAD that doesn't leave you helpless afterwards.

 

[leafgreen386]

Quoting myself here because apparently it got overlooked.

Or... how about giving all PT players the best of both worlds? No stamina is used regardless, and if a player wants the auto-switch upon death (or doesn't want it, whichever would be easiest), have them use a button activator like holding shield when selecting the character.

With this, people could main squirtle, ivy, charizard, or all three, and still be able to switch whenever during a match.

Also, there is no way to reduce the transform time. The game doesn't pre-load the character data before the match like it did in melee, so it has to load it on the spot.

 

[Phyvo]

Leaf: That seems like our best chance at making it work.

I understand your point but let's be realistic for a moment--- your point is lost in the fact that players can play how they want.

The separation of the pokemon will just give the PT the option to either switch or not switch. Simple as that. It's not replacing the characters, there by creating a dilemma for PT mainers. What about the individual who wants to play as Squirtle but only Squirtle? Do you laugh and say.. "ha sorry bud, you have to main the two other pokemon as well, as you have NO CHOICE!! "

The fact that they can still change whenever they want and WHENEVER they want as opposed to when they're forced to because of stamina is worth the change alone. If anything, PT mainers should embrace these codes because they can now get so much more out of their character! There character that is still three in one...

No, they can't, for the same reason that people cannot play Charizard alone right now. It's not the best way to be competative. Switching, as you said, isn't a very safe thing to do, as you can only do it after KOes or automatically when you die. Moreover, since playing three characters rather than one is optional, people will want to play just one because that way they can place better by being able to ignore the other characters, and be able to not worry about being punished when they switch. The number of people wanting to main more than one pokemon will be fewer than the people wanting to main both zelda and shiek. It's really just easier to learn how to play one character. The character is still three characters, but at the same time few would want to play it that way. See?

As for people who want to main Zard, their predicament has nothing to do with whether or not we should ask people who like maining PT if they mind us nerfing PT and buffing Zard.

Because some people may already be happy with things the way they are, and may *not* be happy with the change, we should get their input before we decide to make the change, yes? What's so complicated or unfair about that for people who want to main Charizard? That people who disagree with them get a voice?

 

[Dan_X]

No, they can't, for the same reason that people cannot play Charizard alone right now. It's not the best way to be competative. Switching, as you said, isn't a very safe thing to do, as you can only do it after KOes or automatically when you die. Moreover, since playing three characters rather than one is optional, people will want to play just one because that way they can place better by being able to ignore the other characters, and be able to not worry about being punished when they switch. The number of people wanting to main more than one pokemon will be fewer than the people wanting to main both zelda and shiek. It's really just easier to learn how to play one character. The character is still three characters, but at the same time few would want to play it that way. See?

As for people who want to main Zard, their predicament has nothing to do with whether or not we should ask people who like maining PT if they mind us nerfing PT and buffing Zard.

Because some people may already be happy with things the way they are, and may *not* be happy with the change, we should get their input before we decide to make the change, yes? What's so complicated or unfair about that for people who want to main Charizard? That people who disagree with them get a voice?

WHy does it matter that some people will choose to main 1 pokemon or 2, and fewer will main all 3? How is it "Nerfing PT" you're buffing each character respectively which comprise to form the PT. If you want to transform you can do so after a KO, or after you knock the enemy away. If you wanted to change upon dieing it could be something like what Leaf proposed, a button press that would initiate the change upon spawning-- which is the point I think he was making.

This makes PT better. He can play the same way he did before... but now each Pokemon is more viable.

 

[Phyvo]

WHy does it matter that some people will choose to main 1 pokemon or 2, and fewer will main all 3? How is it "Nerfing PT" you're buffing each character respectively which comprise to form the PT. If you want to transform you can do so after a KO, or after you knock the enemy away. If you wanted to change upon dieing it could be something like what Leaf proposed, a button press that would initiate the change upon spawning-- which is the point I think he was making.

This makes PT better. He can play the same way he did before... but now each Pokemon is more viable.

What I meant by "nerfing PT" was that you are nerfing people's ability to switch pokemon and thus play all three if they want to. You are doing this by getting rid of the ability to switch on death, as that is the only 100% safe option you'll ever get. Down+B takes a long time. If you fear the punishment and the pressure is on, you can't switch until you get that big hit for risk of dying prematurely, and if you never get the chance before you die you are still stuck with the same pokemon. At least with the option to switch when you die you can get a completely safe switch.

As for leaf's idea, I am in no way opposed to that. I responded strongly to your posts because you hadn't made any mention of leaf's idea and considered the current individual pokemon trainer code to be fine. Let me quote my previous post:

Leaf: That seems like our best chance at making it work.

Leaf's would be the code I'd want as it gives the most options when it comes to picking and choosing pokemon rather than turning him basically into three different characters in the zelda/sheik sense. He should have more flexibility than that.

-------

Random quote from Steeler on the subject for thought-provokingness, not to support my own argument:

for some matchups, a combination of two pokemon does better than one individually. for example, ivysaur really dominates dk's spacing, but ivy has trouble killing. switch to charizard, problem solved. charizard by himself does well too, but not as well as ivy does before KO time. just one example, there are plenty more.

I'm of the opinion that PT should have the kind of flexibility that he has in the games. you can use 1. you can use 2. you can use 3. using just one is interesting and i know LOTS of people that would play a pokemon in tournament...but don't because of the other pokemon. forcing all three down your throat was executed very poorly by the development team imo. you don't even need stamina to force switches...you already switch when you die. it's like they wanted to make sure you couldn't stay as just one poke, but if you want to stay as the same poke, then you have to switch if it dies or if you want to start all of your stocks with it anyway. -_- fatigue was completely unnecessary. forced switch upon death OR fatigue, but not both. that is just asinine and an unneeded handicap.

it's unfortunate that PT will never have that kind of flexibility in tournament play. he'd be very very unique and interesting in tourney play, and would make a big impact, considering Squirtle and Charizard are both very good characters (idk about Ivy...). the characters are already in the game, they just have to transform all the time and get tired after standing for 2 minutes. 1:30 if you use 30 attacks.

feel free to quote my post into that thread.

 

[Dan_X]

What I meant by "nerfing PT" was that you are nerfing people's ability to switch pokemon and thus play all three if they want to. You are doing this by getting rid of the ability to switch on death, as that is the only 100% safe option you'll ever get. Down+B takes a long time. If you fear the punishment and the pressure is on, you can't switch until you get that big hit for risk of dying prematurely, and if you never get the chance before you die you are still stuck with the same pokemon. At least with the option to switch when you die you can get a completely safe switch.

As for leaf's idea, I am in no way opposed to that. I responded strongly to your posts because you hadn't made any mention of leaf's idea and considered the current individual pokemon trainer code to be fine. Let me quote my previous post:



Leaf's would be the code I'd want as it gives the most options when it comes to picking and choosing pokemon rather than turning him basically into three different characters in the zelda/sheik sense. He should have more flexibility than that.

-------

Random quote from Steeler on the subject for thought-provokingness, not to support my own argument:

Initially I didn't respond to Leaf because I misunderstood what he was proposing. That's why in my response to you I said "which is the point I think he was making." I really wasn't sure.

I do see your point now. Sorry for being blind to it. Your point is that their safest switch is upon death and people SHOULD have that option if they want it. I agree, I think this would be interesting, we'll have to have to mention this to Kupo!

So upon being KOed you'd press a certain button? How do you guys think this would best work, Leafgreen is onto something with this one.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think you misunderstood me, but I like your idea even better, if the code is possible (which it might not be).

I was saying that you would select whether to activate the code or not when you select your character. Like, say I want to be able to switch pokemon when I play PT. I would hold down shield when I select him. If I want to stay the same pokemon throughout the whole match, I don't hold down shield when I select PT. (Or make it the other way around if PT players would prefer it that way.)

Whereas your idea has it where PT can press a button (ie. shield) when they're KOed, and it causes the game to load the new pokemon instead of your current one. This sounds like it should be possible. The shield action would have to be placed quickly, and in all likelihood, if it worked, it could cause a slight delay in the time it took for the pokemon to appear compared to normal (not that that's a problem - I'd rather have that happen than have it not work at all). I think this could be the best solution, actually, if it can work out.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

A thread discussing the splitting of P.Trainer can be found here. The focus of that thread is finding a perfect balance between people who main the Trainer as a whole, and those that want to main just one of the Pokemon.

It's more about the P.Trainer community, and not so much about Brawl+. Though any info gathered in that thread will be passed on.

So I encourage the discussion about P.Trainer to move there.

 

[Dan_X]

I think you misunderstood me, but I like your idea even better, if the code is possible (which it might not be).

I was saying that you would select whether to activate the code or not when you select your character. Like, say I want to be able to switch pokemon when I play PT. I would hold down shield when I select him. If I want to stay the same pokemon throughout the whole match, I don't hold down shield when I select PT. (Or make it the other way around if PT players would prefer it that way.)

Whereas your idea has it where PT can press a button (ie. shield) when they're KOed, and it causes the game to load the new pokemon instead of your current one. This sounds like it should be possible. The shield action would have to be placed quickly, and in all likelihood, if it worked, it could cause a slight delay in the time it took for the pokemon to appear compared to normal (not that that's a problem - I'd rather have that happen than have it not work at all). I think this could be the best solution, actually, if it can work out.

Haha funny, My confusion birthed a new idea all together. Yeah, if this change were to work it'd be the best balance imho. Selecting before the match would be interesting, but I think this would truly mesh both sides quite nicely.

We'd have to figure out the best way to implement it.

 

[Wind Owl]

.... Why not just make PT work like Zelda/Sheik? If you transform while invincible from respawn, your invincibility is suspended until you come back, and then it continues where it left off.

 

[Dan_X]

.... Why not just make PT work like Zelda/Sheik? If you transform while invincible from respawn, your invincibility is suspended until you come back, and then it continues where it left off.

Actually, that's a pretty good idea. It would be less gimmicky than holding a button upon dieing to switch-- even if it turns out this isn't gimmicky, it'd probably require less lines of code.

What do you guys think about this??

 

[Me_Aludes]

... A certain video recorded by Ankoku seems to imply otherwise...

No, it doesn't.

You cannot SDI into a wall collision. This was done a lot in Smash 64 to make fatal attacks simply wallbounce you, and a lot in Melee to walltech said fatal attacks. In Brawl, no matter how much you SDI into a wall, if the attack had knockback that sends you away from it, you won't bounce off.

If the attack sent you to the left, you cannot SDI to the right to force a wall colision. But you can still SDI to the right if there are no walls or to the left and walltech what you want.

 

[Phyvo]

.... Why not just make PT work like Zelda/Sheik? If you transform while invincible from respawn, your invincibility is suspended until you come back, and then it continues where it left off.

...Zelda and Sheik get to do that?!!? That's... that's.... so unfair. it would probably be easier to code too.

Orca: Yeah. Internet communication lulz!

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

if you guys intend on doing the invincible thing, you should let people switch out of order as well. so they can go from squirtle -> ivysaur, or charizard -> squirtle, or whatever.