COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[zxeon]

I'm sorry if this was answered already but could you please explain the stage freezing to me? I tried to get that to work but my gecko thing wont load the game with those codes on. I appreciate the help.

If it just hangs in the Gecko OS after it says applying codes or whatever then that means on of your codes has an error in it.

 

[Magus420]

If you're getting PSed out of a large majority of your attacks you're likely either playing against a CPU, are very predictable, or are using too many attacks with slow startup. I have PS jabbed idiots out of mindless or obvious aerial approaches with high consistency in Melee too. Though it's a bit more difficult than doing it to them in Brawl due to the smaller window, it's still easier than against Brawl players that realize they can mix up the timing of their attacks, use more empty shorthops, use multihitting attacks, etc to mess with it if I'm ****** them with PS->counterattack camping which is something I do quite a bit already.

As someone that plays a defensive Luigi, which is a character that has trouble punishing much of anything with a normal shield due to his sliding and relies on PSing them in order to do so, I can say it's only really as overpowered as your opponent allows it be. If they're too dumb to deal with it better and I'm able to **** them by depending on that strategy then that's their problem. I'm never able to abuse it nearly as much against better players once they adapt and keep me guessing with the timing on attacks that are also too fast to react to their startup, or beat it with multihitting moves.

 

[MookieRah]

@Magus
I love you.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

yea, i don't think reducing the PSing window is necessary, i do however (if this is true), believe that if there is 'auto power-shielding', it must go.

 

[MookieRah]

It's not auto, it's just how the shielding works in Brawl. From what I remember someone posted about how hard it would be to make it not do that. Honestly, there were accidental power shields in Melee ALL the time for the same thing, except that it had a smaller window and was less frequent than it is in Brawl.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

on a side note, i have experienced some strange problems with the buffering system. it seems like, randomly, my character does moves that i seemingly didn't input. it may be a lapse in the buffering window, but it is certainly a strange bug. it does only happen very infrequently. also, i don't know if this is a legitimate claim, but the buffering code also makes the game feel kinda.. clunky? i don't know how to explain it. it also kinda screws w/online play.

 

[zxeon]

Need DD FTW.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

yea.. the more i watch melee and s64 vids.. the more i want DD really, really bad.

 

[zxeon]

on a side note, i have experienced some strange problems with the buffering system. it seems like, randomly, my character does moves that i seemingly didn't input. it may be a lapse in the buffering window, but it is certainly a strange bug. it does only happen very infrequently. also, i don't know if this is a legitimate claim, but the buffering code also makes the game feel kinda.. clunky? i don't know how to explain it. it also kinda screws w/online play.

This happened to me a few times too so I set the buffer to zero and it has yet to happen again.

 

[cobaltblue]

on a side note, i have experienced some strange problems with the buffering system. it seems like, randomly, my character does moves that i seemingly didn't input. it may be a lapse in the buffering window, but it is certainly a strange bug. it does only happen very infrequently. also, i don't know if this is a legitimate claim, but the buffering code also makes the game feel kinda.. clunky? i don't know how to explain it. it also kinda screws w/online play.

As far as smothness goes buffering is something you just have to keep playing under. Out of all of these codes it probably has the most impact on any characters game baring hitstun.

 

[Toadster5]

I like the buffering code a lot when it's set to 0. Movement seems less sloppy and more precise. I stopped playing vanilla Brawl a long time ago and just continued to play Melee, so maybe it's not much of an adjustment for me.

 

[kupo15]

It's not auto, it's just how the shielding works in Brawl. From what I remember someone posted about how hard it would be to make it not do that. Honestly, there were accidental power shields in Melee ALL the time for the same thing, except that it had a smaller window and was less frequent than it is in Brawl.

Are you sure? I am very positive you couldn't hold the shield down during any lag then have a PS automatically come up like brawl does. I am pretty sure the only time you could PS in melee was if you physically pressed the button, accidental or not.

 

[leafgreen386]

Are you sure? I am very positive you couldn't hold the shield down during any lag then have a PS automatically come up like brawl does. I am pretty sure the only time you could PS in melee was if you physically pressed the button, accidental or not.

Nah, pretty sure it happened to me just this saturday. I was in lag and managed to PS a marth fsmash while holding down R.

 

[Roager]

Ok, I just tried out Brawl+ (with Kupo's uploaded GCT file) and, IMO, here's what needs fixing:

Auto L Cancel (I think it's stupid. Manual L Cancel is fair, slow characters are still slower, unlike S Cancel, but it actually has to be a user input.)

Hitstun (I support having more than Vanilla Brawl has, but this is too much. It honestly took almost 3 full seconds to be able to react to a hit. I'd fix it for myself, but I need to learn how first.)

Fix those two, and I could see more point in Brawl+. As is, it's less skilled than Vanilla Brawl (I comboed by friend, 0 to 70, without any difficulty at all. That's a bit much. Combos should be in, but should be harder.)

 

[Shell]

We've all debated the ALC issue. The general consensus is that L-canceling is a reflex more than a mechanic. You can look up the debate (there was a whole thread for it, just search).

Also, if comboing takes less skill, why didn't you also combo your friend? What % stun were you using?

 

[kupo15]

Ok, I just tried out Brawl+ (with Kupo's uploaded GCT file) and, IMO, here's what needs fixing:

Auto L Cancel (I think it's stupid. Manual L Cancel is fair, slow characters are still slower, unlike S Cancel, but it actually has to be a user input.)

There is one thing to consider. Manual l canceling has 20ish more lines than auto l canceling. We may need the code space

Hitstun (I support having more than Vanilla Brawl has, but this is too much. It honestly took almost 3 full seconds to be able to react to a hit. I'd fix it for myself, but I need to learn how first.)

Yea atm 10% is too much. When we get a hitlag mod, it will be lower as well as better air speed. Look in my hitstun thread to learn how to change the value. The hitstun will definitely be lower in the near future.

Fix those two, and I could see more point in Brawl+. As is, it's less skilled than Vanilla Brawl (I comboed by friend, 0 to 70, without any difficulty at all. That's a bit much. Combos should be in, but should be harder.)

I wouldn't say its less skilled than vanilla brawl at all. Sure it may feel easier because your not used to functioning hitstun in vanilla brawl, but you have more options to do good damage which is a little more difficult to manage. I don't know how new you are to brawl+, but when you first play it, you will do ridiculous combos because your not used to rely on DI to escape combos as opposed to mashing the air dodge button.

 

[plasmatorture]

The problem is that some characters already do ALC some moves, so the ALC code makes it fair across the board.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

The problem is that some characters already do ALC some moves, so the ALC code makes it fair across the board.

that's not a very good argument. the property of some attacks may just be that they are lagless.

the truth is, although L cancel is a reflex for many, it is a no brainer. you never not want to L-cancel, therefore, the community has decided to make it automatic. that is unappealing to many, and to be honest, i miss it. but right now, it's not a priority. it works as intended, and it's good for testing purposes.

the project is going through a lot of revamps and with all these codes being released at once it's kind of overwhelming for one person to test them all at once.

 

[kupo15]

that's not a very good argument. the property of some attacks may just be that they are lagless.

I think its got merit because the fact is, it acts like an l cancel. Thats the way it functions. If you compare DK from melee, his Bair had more lag in melee not l canceled and it looks very similar in brawl when melee Dk l canceled it. The same can be said for the other characters. This was sakurai's way for l canceling in brawl, but selectively dispersing it..

 

[lamelikemike]

Hey Kupo. could you put up a little description of some of the more confusing codes on the first page, (i.e. what exactly do the shield stun, buffer, and lagless ledges codes change, also how do the shield color change codes work)

thanks, sorry if this has been discussed but part of the reason im asking about changing this is so nobody else will have to ask what the codes do.

I can't wait to play some people with codes on, I've only been able to play comps since the beginning of Dec, and I'm hungry for some brawl+ action

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Hey Kupo. could you put up a little description of some of the more confusing codes on the first page, (i.e. what exactly do the shield stun, buffer, and lagless ledges codes change, also how do the shield color change codes work)

thanks, sorry if this has been discussed but part of the reason im asking about changing this is so nobody else will have to ask what the codes do.

I can't wait to play some people with codes on, I've only been able to play comps since the beginning of Dec, and I'm hungry for some brawl+ action

check out the brawl+ FAQ linked at the top of the page. i added a quick explanation of every code.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I was just wondering. Is it possible to make a code that records matches in a video format instead of it saving inputs?

 

[zxeon]

I was just wondering. Is it possible to make a code that records matches in a video format instead of it saving inputs?

No

 

[Vulcan55]

I was just wondering. Is it possible to make a code that records matches in a video format instead of it saving inputs?

That would probably fill the Wii's memory two times over.

 

[MookieRah]

That would probably fill the Wii's memory two times over.

Umm, way more than two times. Recording inputs takes up kilobytes of space. Recording video takes up hundreds of megabytes.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Hopefully these are accurate. Here are some hitstun values you guys can test.

8%
.48
3EF5C28F


8.5%
.485
3EF851EC


8.75%
.4875
3EF9999A


9%
.49
3EFAE148


9.5%
.495
3EFD70A4


9.75%
.4975
3EFEB852


10%
.5
3F000000


11%
.51
3F028F5C


11.75%
.5175
3F047AE1

 

[Shell]

Could someone test the decay code's affect on throws? KishSquared mentioned that Rob's D-throw wasn't killing right, and we suspect it could be the decay code. This could make / break the decay code.

If no one else gets around to it before me, I'll check it out later tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

hmm i got DK to 140 or so and i dthrow'd him as ROB. didnt kill him.

did have 1.165% grav down on, and he didnt seem to go up much higher compared to the last time i threw him.

well, the decay definitely affects throws in some way. at 100%, no DI, jiggly dies to ness' back throw. after 1-2 more back throws, a 100% jigglypuff does not die anymore.

also tested squirtles dthrow. it still kills.

i don't know why rob's dthrow doesn't kill anymore.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

edit: btw, i had no idea ROB's dthrow even killed. everything else works fine, maybe you guys forgot?

 

[GameSystem]

I was messing around just now and I put in a whole bunch of codes. When I loaded up Brawl, my gamecube controller wasn't working. I tried my Wii mote and it worked fine. Curious as to why, I checked how many lines of codes I had, because I remember reading that if you have too many that Brawl won't load up. I counted the codes and I had 289 lines of code. That's over the 256 limit. Anyone care to explain how I still got brawl to work? (although the gcn controller couldn't respond.)

 

[Starscream]

Were the codes applied when you booted it up even though you were above the limit?

 

[GameSystem]

Yeah I had everything on.
No trip 2 lines,
longer replays 3 lines,
auto l cancel 32 lines,
hitstun 33 lines,
lagless edges 54 lines,
no asl 45 lines,
dash cancel 27 lines,
p trainer infinite stam 28 lines,
p trainer no swap on death 11 lines,
strong hit shield stun 11 lines,
weak hit shield stun 1 line,
hold l for level freeze 6 lines,
fall speed 1 line,
decay modifier 6 lines,
frame buffer 23 lines,
giza's grab escape fix 6 lines.

Right before I started brawl I updated HBC to it's newest version.
I tried again with less codes to get under the 256 limit and my gamecube controller worked again. When I went over the only thing that happened was that the gcn controlled didn't do anything.

 

[Alopex]

There's still no reason not to at least MAKE the PSing code.

A whole bunch of unnecessary codes have been made and we can't afford the time to make one that might actually be useful?
What if the code is made and we all actually find a modified PS window better through testing?
How will we know, how will we test, if there is no code?

If it turns out not to be a problem in the end, then it just won't be included in the standard codeset.


But this is the first time I'm seeing people trying to prevent a code from even being MADE instead of choosing to have the code made and then testing it out.

The sheer close-mindedness of that attitude boggles the mind when it comes to a project such as Brawl+...

 

[Deleted member]

what are the useless code so far, buffer input?
also, it will be made in the end, but remember that there are about 4 actual hackers doing this and we have to make decisions on what is made first.

 

[Alopex]

I didn't say useless. I said unnecessary. Like Stage Freezing.

Sure stage freezing is nice, but it's hardly necessary. That's no different than how a PSing code would be described.

And once again, I'll bring up hitlag. No way can that be seen as more "necessary" than a PSing code. So why the close-mindedness when it comes to the PS?

It makes no sense.

 

[Yeroc]

A lot of codes are going to be ultimately up to opinion instead of concrete facts as to whether or not they make it into our hopefully finalized version. Most of what we're doing is subjective in that it's up to us to decide what makes Brawl+ a better game. For example, dash canceling is a necessary code for me. I will no longer play without it on. Others, even in this thread, don't see it that way and often go without it. It's going to be up to who's opinion makes the most sense from a competitive standpoint, or at least, who can make the most balanced game while still making it fun to play.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Could someone test the decay code's affect on throws? KishSquared mentioned that Rob's D-throw wasn't killing right, and we suspect it could be the decay code. This could make / break the decay code.

If no one else gets around to it before me, I'll check it out later tomorrow afternoon.

update on the ROB issue...
the ROB forums say that his dthrow doesn't kill. as i suspected. lol

D-throw

Advantages: has a set knockback, meaning that knockback never changes; if you can something once out of this, you can do it forever

Disadvantages: has nothing that works 100% of the time out of this throw, meaning that your opponent can literally be safe 100% of the time out of this throw if he knows what he is doing.

Uses: setting up for combos, putting opponent in a bad positions.

 

[Almas]

I'm surprised that GeckoOS would let you even load up the game if you had too many lines of code. However, I believe I can offer an explanation to the glitches caused. The codes take up physical space in the memory of the Wii that (for some reason) is unused. By having lines over the limit, they were shunted into the used portion of the Wii's memory, overwriting information about the controller.

Paprika, have you done any work on ASM codes before? I think I can get short hop height to be between about 3 and 12 lines in length, but first I have to get the ASM working. Have you found any good tutorials, because the ones at the Wiird forums are supposedly not too good. And my codetype list for ASM doesn't include some functions which I know are there (e.g. mulli).

 

[Deleted member]

type powerpc mnemonics in google and get the first link, that should help you.

also the over the limit error is caused because the lines that go over the limit are not used and the (often) leaves half a code open which usually means the ba/po isn't resetted before a new code is read.

 

[Revven]

This was sort of a topic brought up n the FAQ thread but, I didn't want to post it there because I don't want it become another general Brawl+ discussion thread like it almost has. That thread should be strictly for questions pertaining to it and answers. Bumps can just be made possible daily if it gets to Page 2 or Page 3.

Anyway, ONTO what I was ABOUT to post in the FAQ thread.

Y'know, maybe once we have all the codes done and a general set (not standardized, just a general agreement among us) we could do a huge combo video showing off the possibilities of the best stuff all of us have done. Make it one combo video to promote Brawl+. Or maybe some kind of video that demonstrates what each code does and their possibilities for the game that make it an improvement over vanilla Brawl.

Just an idea, considering there are already a decent amount of combo videos for the beta of this game why not make one big one for the finalized one? (Using a code set that we all agree on but, isn't set for tourneys quite yet). Get what I'm sayin'? >_>;