COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

This was sort of a topic brought up n the FAQ thread but, I didn't want to post it there because I don't want it become another general Brawl+ discussion thread like it almost has. That thread should be strictly for questions pertaining to it and answers. Bumps can just be made possible daily if it gets to Page 2 or Page 3.

Anyway, ONTO what I was ABOUT to post in the FAQ thread.

Y'know, maybe once we have all the codes done and a general set (not standardized, just a general agreement among us) we could do a huge combo video showing off the possibilities of the best stuff all of us have done. Make it one combo video to promote Brawl+. Or maybe some kind of video that demonstrates what each code does and their possibilities for the game that make it an improvement over vanilla Brawl.

Just an idea, considering there are already a decent amount of combo videos for the beta of this game why not make one big one for the finalized one? (Using a code set that we all agree on but, isn't set for tourneys quite yet). Get what I'm sayin'? >_>;

This is an excellent idea

 

[shanus]

This was sort of a topic brought up n the FAQ thread but, I didn't want to post it there because I don't want it become another general Brawl+ discussion thread like it almost has. That thread should be strictly for questions pertaining to it and answers. Bumps can just be made possible daily if it gets to Page 2 or Page 3.

Anyway, ONTO what I was ABOUT to post in the FAQ thread.

Y'know, maybe once we have all the codes done and a general set (not standardized, just a general agreement among us) we could do a huge combo video showing off the possibilities of the best stuff all of us have done. Make it one combo video to promote Brawl+. Or maybe some kind of video that demonstrates what each code does and their possibilities for the game that make it an improvement over vanilla Brawl.

Just an idea, considering there are already a decent amount of combo videos for the beta of this game why not make one big one for the finalized one? (Using a code set that we all agree on but, isn't set for tourneys quite yet). Get what I'm sayin'? >_>;

My good friend is a film major and excellent at editting (and brawl). We have been collecting footage of only top knotch combos (0-death kinda ****, nothing lame) and plan to just make a really pack it to the punch 1.5-2 minute video of good stuff. My music major friend has also composed his own music for it. Hopefully within 2 weeks it'll be out.

If you want to see an example of something we can do, the trailer of Pluck You! in my signature was made very quickly.

 

[Deleted member]

great idea!
(let's open the movie with some "flaws" of vanilla to show the improvement better)

also, I reduced hitlag to 1 of 5 possible Fmuls commands, and tthe finalized code will prob look like something similair to the last 6 lines of the hitstun code.
but I'll need more testing first.

 

[kupo15]

great idea!
(let's open the movie with some "flaws" of vanilla to show the improvement better)

also, I reduced hitlag to 1 of 5 possible Fmuls commands, and tthe finalized code will prob look like something similair to the last 6 lines of the hitstun code.
but I'll need more testing first.

wow nice, so like 4 lines instead of the 10 you were predicting? The finalized hitstun code was bigger by 4 lines..

 

[MBlaze]

What's with the weird feeling when I play with these codes on? It feels like I don't have control over myself sometimes....

 

[kupo15]

What's with the weird feeling when I play with these codes on? It feels like I don't have control over myself sometimes....

If you have the buffer code on, then your not used to it. You have been playing brawl for 9 months with a buffer window that allows for sloppy inputs. You need to learn to adjust to be more precise with your controller inputs when using the buffer code. This will make you feel like you have more control then before when you adjust.


EDIT:

I edited my text file to remove buffering as the default which is what I meant to do in the first place. Sketch, can you update your page?

http://rapidshare.com/files/180498533/brawl_.txt.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/180498534/RSBE01.gct.html

 

[KayJay]

If you have the buffer code on, then your not used to it. You have been playing brawl for 9 months with a buffer window that allows for sloppy inputs. You need to learn to adjust to be more precise with your controller inputs when using the buffer code. This will make you feel like you have more control then before when you adjust.


EDIT:

I edited my text file to remove buffering as the default which is what I meant to do in the first place. Sketch, can you update your page?

http://rapidshare.com/files/180498533/brawl_.txt.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/180498534/RSBE01.gct.html

Well, i think if Brawl is in any point supperior to Melee, than it's in the buffer system, remember Melee, you never could do an arial attack right at the start of a jump, i don't want that back. I can't understand why people have problems with the Brawl Buffer system, it offers auto Cancelling and feels smooth.

Thats how i play at the moment:

- Custom CSS (http://www.mitglied.lycos.de/Deedolito01/SSBB_Custom_characterscreen.jpg)
- Allow Replays Longer Than Three Minutes
- Allow More Than 1000 Replays/Stages/Snapshots
- No Tripping
- Shield Stun
- Hitstun (+10%)
- Fast Fall Modifier (1.1)
- Crouch Cancel
- Auto L-cancel
- Player Action Modifier: Air Release Fix / Ground Release Fix (no Release Chain Grabs anymore)
- P.Trainer No Swap
- No ASL
- Lagless Edges

 

[MBlaze]

If you have the buffer code on, then your not used to it. You have been playing brawl for 9 months with a buffer window that allows for sloppy inputs. You need to learn to adjust to be more precise with your controller inputs when using the buffer code. This will make you feel like you have more control then before when you adjust.


EDIT:

I edited my text file to remove buffering as the default which is what I meant to do in the first place. Sketch, can you update your page?

http://rapidshare.com/files/180498533/brawl_.txt.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/180498534/RSBE01.gct.html

Probably when I adjust but as of now I don't like it. lulz That's the one thing I never liked about Melee was the buffer window....

 

[Deleted member]

ok the hitlag code is getting on my nerves, and I think there is a direct connection between hitlag and dmg/knockback, which would imply that lowering hitlag will lower damage output

 

[kupo15]

Well, i think if Brawl is in any point supperior to Melee, than it's in the buffer system, remember Melee, you never could do an arial attack right at the start of a jump, i don't want that back. I can't understand why people have problems with the Brawl Buffer system, it offers auto Cancelling and feels smooth.

Thats how i play at the moment:

- Custom CSS (http://www.mitglied.lycos.de/Deedolito01/SSBB_Custom_characterscreen.jpg)
- Allow Replays Longer Than Three Minutes
- Allow More Than 1000 Replays/Stages/Snapshots
- No Tripping
- Shield Stun
- Hitstun (+10%)
- Fast Fall Modifier (1.1)
- Crouch Cancel
- Auto L-cancel
- Player Action Modifier: Air Release Fix / Ground Release Fix (no Release Chain Grabs anymore)
- P.Trainer No Swap
- No ASL
- Lagless Edges

Probably when I adjust but as of now I don't like it. lulz That's the one thing I never liked about Melee was the buffer window....

Im not saying don't use the buffering system...use it but brawl's buffering system fails because the window is too big. I never had a problem with the buffering in melee and it really wasn't an issue..its what made your actions so precise and not kill yourself like brawls does.

I haven't tested ganon's thunderstomp but I'm sure a 3-4 frame buffer window is all you need. Not a 10 frame window because that is just sloppy..

 

[kupo15]

EDIT: whoops double post

ok the hitlag code is getting on my nerves, and I think there is a direct connection between hitlag and dmg/knockback, which would imply that lowering hitlag will lower damage output

That makes no sense to me because it shouldn't. Hitlag should merely be freeze frames in the game to catch your breath a little so to speak. There has been some speculation that there may be different hitlag values for normal hits vs lightning for example. We know lightning has a different affect (more hitlag?) or maybe its a modifier on hitlag. What are you using for testing? Maybe you should use a melee attack for testing like ganon's down smash or MK's fair for testing. Those come to mind as easily telling that there is hitlag.

 

[MBlaze]

Im not saying don't use the buffering system...use it but brawl's buffering system fails because the window is too big. I never had a problem with the buffering in melee and it really wasn't an issue..its what made your actions so precise and not kill yourself like brawls does.

I haven't tested ganon's thunderstomp but I'm sure a 3-4 frame buffer window is all you need. Not a 10 frame window because that is just sloppy..




That makes no sense to me because it shouldn't. Hitlag should merely be freeze frames in the game to catch your breath a little so to speak. There has been some speculation that there may be different hitlag values for normal hits vs lightning for example. We know lightning has a different affect (more hitlag?) or maybe its a modifier on hitlag. What are you using for testing? Come to think about it, maybe you should use like ganon's down smash or MK's fair for testing. Those come to mind as easily telling that there is hitlag.

Meh just feels so stiff to me, Brawl makes it a little bit too free though. Maybe 5 or 6? lolz

 

[Deleted member]

and not kill yourself like brawls does.

except that I only suicide in melee, brawl actually gives me the feeling I'm more in control.
the woindow can be shortened but less than 5 frames is unacceptable and will scare off newcomers

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: whoops double post



That makes no sense to me because it shouldn't. Hitlag should merely be freeze frames in the game to catch your breath a little so to speak. There has been some speculation that there may be different hitlag values for normal hits vs lightning for example. We know lightning has a different affect (more hitlag?) or maybe its a modifier on hitlag. What are you using for testing? Maybe you should use a melee attack for testing like ganon's down smash or MK's fair for testing. Those come to mind as easily telling that there is hitlag.

I'm mostly using the knee and samus charge shots

 

[kupo15]

except that I only suicide in melee, brawl actually gives me the feeling I'm more in control.
the woindow can be shortened but less than 5 frames is unacceptable and will scare off newcomers

Yea that might be a tricky code for newcomers

I'm mostly using the knee and samus charge shots

Maybe see what result you get from straight up melee attacks with no elemental properties. That might work out better. Falcon's Dsmash or Dk's Fsmash/ giant punch comes to mind for having a lot of hitlag

 

[MBlaze]

Yeah... so lets use something 5 or above because below just sucks in movement...

 

[Alphabravo]

Yeah... so lets use something 5 or above because below just sucks in movement...

I don't understand why. I've been using the buffer code and it did feel very strange at first. But after a few matches I've become adjusted to the new buffering window (i'm using a 3 frame opening). Honestly, I think it feels great.

the window can be shortened but less than 5 frames is unacceptable and will scare off newcomers

It's not just reduced buffering that can potentially scare off newcomers. No ASL, hitstun, ALC, and shield stun codes all change the game dramatically and will turn off many players towards Brawl+.

At the last few smashfests that I've brought Brawl+ to hardly any of the brawlers want to play it anymore because they dislike the changes. They always complain about one code or another (whether it be hitstun, no ASL, or gravity).

My point is any code that is released for Brawl+ that changes the gameplay in some way has the potential to turn away regular brawl players/newcomers.

 

[Deleted member]

except that I almost never hear anybody complaining about the buffer system, unlike hitstun,PS, gravity, aerial lag and then some.

 

[kupo15]

except that I almost never hear anybody complaining about the buffer system, unlike hitstun,PS, gravity, aerial lag and then some.

maybe because people don't understand why moves that they wanted to do didn't happen. I wasn't aware of the horrible buffer system until my friend told me about his troubles with it and now, I notice it all the time.

 

[Almas]

We notice the buffer system a lot, particularly a friend who plays as DK who has died many a time to performing moves as he fell off the edge (for example, pressing shield as a hit that sends him off the edge comes out, so that he enters an airdodge as soon as he begins falling).

 

[kupo15]

yea lol,

Similarly has anyone had this happen to them? This happens a lot and I hate it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRChvPf3vt0#t=2m21s

 

[Deleted member]

I never said we should not use it at all, I agree the buffersystem isn't perfect, but any lower than 5 would be stupid.

btw I asked on wiird forums, 256 is the limit and it will not change. ever.

 

[Osi]

I wouldn't say its less skilled than vanilla brawl at all. Sure it may feel easier because your not used to functioning hitstun in vanilla brawl, but you have more options to do good damage which is a little more difficult to manage. I don't know how new you are to brawl+, but when you first play it, you will do ridiculous combos because your not used to rely on DI to escape combos as opposed to mashing the air dodge button.

This is actually important to all new brawl+ users. It's so important to warn them on this I'd actually think something addressing it could go in the "what is brawl+" thread. I was able to pull insane combos the first 2 weeks on brawl+, and now that my crew is use to teching and DI'ing they are few and far between. I rarely can land a 0 to death now, and when I do it's often because of a few missed techs or something. 0 to 70 should be hard to do on most characters if the opponent is doing correct DI and teching.

I have had issues with the buffer code and since took it out. I set both of mine to 3 and it randomly would repeat actions as PW warned. Did anyone else have something like this? It would do things like random;y dair with sonic without me doing the input for it. After removing the code for buffering my set works fine again.

edit- took a while to post, looks like others have had similar issues with the buffer code hehe

 

[Almas]

The reply on their forums wasn't a definitive 'no'. It's only safe to use 255/256 lines because all games have that much free space on their RAM. But if more unused RAM can be found in Brawl (and I mean COMPLETELY unused, some stuff gets used for the start then forgotten about), then I don't see why the code limit can't be raised. However, such a thing would have to be tailored solely for Brawl (it'd have to know exactly where to write it).

That said, I wouldn't trust my opinion. You know, at all.

 

[Deleted member]

actually I know exactly where that empty space is.

the histun code write its constant there, you should look at it sometime, hundreds of empty codelines, but how the hell do you want to use those without using the 256 lines to write to that area first?

 

[Alphabravo]

The buffering seems to be more of an issue in Brawl+ than vanilla brawl. Mistakes happen more often as a result of the added hitstun, increased speed (ALC), and higher gravity.

At this point, it's probably just personal preference. I really like 3 frames of buffering but I can definitely see why some people would think that it's too low.

@Osi: I've had that same problem. When I was playing as Falcon he would just do some random move that I didn't even input (ie Falcon Punch).

 

[Revven]

We notice the buffer system a lot, particularly a friend who plays as DK who has died many a time to performing moves as he fell off the edge (for example, pressing shield as a hit that sends him off the edge comes out, so that he enters an airdodge as soon as he begins falling).

The character that suffers the MOST from the buffer system is Ike. When you're by and edge, shield, and mean to let go of your shield to punish the person with jabbing, because your shield was hit you slide off the edge and do a Nair instead, Ike's longest aerial when it isn't near the ground and you're not fastfalling it. It's instant death for Ike players and I've had it happen to me one too many times whenever I play Ike.

The second and third characters that suffer just about as much as Ike are Snake and DK. Snake's Nair and Fair in an Ike situation can occur (jab out of shield would equal Nair and Ftilt out of shield would equal Fair). Fortunately, he can make it back in most situations but, you can't deny it puts him in a horrible situation especially if you're up against someone who has a meteor or knows about Snake's gimp with his Up B. DK, while his Nair, Bair, and Uair wouldn't cause him death his Dair and Fair will.

Ever tried to do the cargo Dtoss gimp only to have your opponent get out as SOON AS you press Down and A? Like, a WHOLE second before you even do the Dtoss. Yeah, you're gonna do a Dair and you're gonna accidentally FF it or even if you don't FF it, you'll still die. A Fair death for DK isn't that common but, it can happen if you try to Ftilt out of the shield after your shield has been hit and you slide off. I haven't, however, seen a DK Fair after trying to do a cargo spike (Fthrow/Bthrow) of the cargo spike due to someone getting out. But, in most situations for me, it's when I try the Dtoss cargo gimp and my opponent gets out a whole second later and I Dair.

Putting the bufer system on 0 might not be a bad thing but, if it is, I'll go for three at minimum and five at maximum. I'd LOVE for DK's cargo Dtoss gimp not to cause me death if my opponent gets out a whole second before I press down and A.

These are my reasons for wanting it gone or lowered a ton.

 

[Starscream]

I haven't tested ganon's thunderstomp but I'm sure a 3-4 frame buffer window is all you need. Not a 10 frame window because that is just sloppy..

Ganon's thunderstomp is possible with 1 frame of buffering. But 1 frame of buffering still makes you crouch at the end of all the same SHFFLs as the default buffer which is just unacceptable to me. I love 0 buffering, I feel like I'm total control of what I'm doing. No more turning around on landing when doing a reverse neutral b while DIing back. I remember when I first got Brawl and my friend was playing and doing just that, a reverse neutral b DIing back and he kept getting pissed because Falco would always turn around when he landed and we didn't know why at first. It's annoying, imprecise and it allows you to be sloppy with your inputs, why would you want something like that?

 

[Revven]

Ganon's thunderstomp is possible with 1 frame of buffering. But 1 frame of buffering still makes you crouch at the end of all the same SHFFLs as the default buffer which is just unacceptable to me. I love 0 buffering, I feel like I'm total control of what I'm doing. No more turning around on landing when doing a reverse neutral b while DIing back. I remember when I first got Brawl and my friend was playing and doing just that, a reverse neutral b DIing back and he kept getting pissed because Falco would always turn around when he landed and we didn't know why at first. It's annoying, imprecise and it allows you to be sloppy with your inputs, why would you want something like that?

'Sides, doesn't the thunderstomp cancel pretty fast anyway? I mean, in Melee, with Ganondorf it's still very possible to combo with the thunderstomp because of hitstun. The only reason to autocancel it in vanilla Brawl is to make up for the lack of hitstun and to follow up with a Uair or Usmash. I'm sure with ALC in place and good enough hitstun + fallspeed, Ganondorf could still land that Usmash right after the Dair or Uair so, there's really no point to the autocancel other than the Fsmash you can do right after it as a mind game (which is just a perk, IMO) and I doubt that would be very useful in Brawl+ because you've got a lot more options now than before with Ganondorf.

Really, it's a decent argument against it but, Ganondorf gains a lot from ALC as is so, it isn't a big deal if he can't autocancel it if he can do the very same things with ALC in place. In fact, didn't G in one of kupo's matches land a Dair > Usmash KO? (Although that means the hitstun was a bit much, it still hit). Even though 0 buffering wasn't on at the time, if it was L-Cancelled, he would've still made the Usmash, just not fully charged.

 

[leafgreen386]

For those who think that ganon losing his AC dair isn't a big deal, I have three words for you:

Dair. To. Jab.

It's what makes the dair a viable approach at all. If you hit with it, you get to combo. If you don't, you can just jab if your opponent tries to counterattack. Trust me, when I was still playing with the full gravity mod, I tried using dair like I normally would, and it was painful. The move loses a lot of its worth without the zero lag, and becomes very situational.

Also, I'd like to note that ganon's dair -> charged usmash is very percent dependent. Yeah, dair -> usmash works for quite a while, but very shortly after the threshold where it begins killing you can't land it anymore. They can just airdodge through you. This was at +.1175 hitstun and regular gravity, btw.

 

[kupo15]

The buffering seems to be more of an issue in Brawl+ than vanilla brawl. Mistakes happen more often as a result of the added hitstun, increased speed (ALC), and higher gravity.

At this point, it's probably just personal preference. I really like 3 frames of buffering but I can definitely see why some people would think that it's too low.

@Osi: I've had that same problem. When I was playing as Falcon he would just do some random move that I didn't even input (ie Falcon Punch).

Has anyone else had this problem? Is it something I should tell PW to fix or is it just people are not used to it? I am without a wii until it comes back from being repaired so I can't test...stupid brawl breaking wiis....

 

[KayJay]

Ganondorf Auto Cancel Dair to running grab or Dash Attack is also sexy, i reject losing codespace for buffering that disables auto cancel and doesn't give me anything, seriously I almost never die from the Brawl buffersystem, i can instantly do an arial attack when I jump (unlike in melee), it's not worth the codespace, it breaks more than it does help.

 

[Osi]

Has anyone else had this problem? Is it something I should tell PW to fix or is it just people are not used to it? I am without a wii until it comes back from being repaired so I can't test...stupid brawl breaking wiis....

I'm pretty sure it's a bug. There have been a few times I was only pressing on the control stick and I'd do random airs... I was thinking it's us not use to buffering yet, but then I noticed if I got hit as I tried to tech then I often would do an airdodge on accident in the air a second later. It occurred on multiple characters, levels, and attacks to all the people I play with. So, yea I think PW should be told. He originally was worried about a bug where moves would repeat, so this could be related. It may be rare enough he just didn't see it again before posting it. It also may be just on some buffer levels. I was on 3 the whole time.

 

[zxeon]

Has anyone else had this problem? Is it something I should tell PW to fix or is it just people are not used to it? I am without a wii until it comes back from being repaired so I can't test...stupid brawl breaking wiis....

I had that problem when I had the buffer set to 3, but after I set it to 0 it hasn't happened again.

 

[kupo15]

can one of the two hackers provide any insight as to why this happens? 3 apparently does this but 0 does not? I remember this happening to me once but thats it. I am unable to test it out unfortunately atm....

 

[Toadster5]

For those who think that ganon losing his AC dair isn't a big deal, I have three words for you:

Dair. To. Jab.

It's what makes the dair a viable approach at all. If you hit with it, you get to combo. If you don't, you can just jab if your opponent tries to counterattack. Trust me, when I was still playing with the full gravity mod, I tried using dair like I normally would, and it was painful. The move loses a lot of its worth without the zero lag, and becomes very situational.

Also, I'd like to note that ganon's dair -> charged usmash is very percent dependent. Yeah, dair -> usmash works for quite a while, but very shortly after the threshold where it begins killing you can't land it anymore. They can just airdodge through you. This was at +.1175 hitstun and regular gravity, btw.

Why should you be rewarded for missing an attack?

 

[leafgreen386]

Why should you be rewarded for missing an attack?

Tell that to melee fox. His nair would get shielded all the time but the opponent couldn't do anything about the shine coming right afterward. This isn't even as safe as that. The opponent can still spotdodge the jab coming afterward if you get predictable with it and then punish the lag of the jab.

Ganon's dair is only good for approach because it suffers little lag. Every good approach option in this game is good for that same reason. Also, if you want to talk about getting rewarded for missing an attack, tell that to EVERY character who shffl aerials out of their opponent's range as a mindgame.

 

[Eaode]

Why would Ganon ever need the AC Dair? With AC Dair you have to do the Dair RIGHT AS you leave the ground, and you can't fastfall. This means that you are performing the Dair at the peak of your jump, and to followup you have to wait to land.

With any form of L-Cancelling, Ganon can do the Dair a LOT closer to the ground, eliminating the wait from peak of jump to landing. This would effectively offset the HALF-Lag that he experiences when he lands, and should allow you to do the same followups (Although I have not tested this personally as I do not have Brawl+)

Furthermore, something as useful as AC Dair should be difficult to perform. You should have to practice to be able to do it efficiently. And don't even try to say that it's IMpossible without buffer, people have been doing far more complex frame perfect motions for years.


Also, in my honest opinion, L-Cancelling should be kept as a button input, given there is enough room for it when all is said and done. So what if there' no strategic benefit from not doing it? This is an action game, not chess; there should be some sense of reward for being technically sound. It's not too hard anyway, especially because even Brawl+'s gravity is less than Melee's.

 

[leafgreen386]

Why would Ganon ever need the AC Dair? With AC Dair you have to do the Dair RIGHT AS you leave the ground, and you can't fastfall. This means that you are performing the Dair at the peak of your jump, and to followup you have to wait to land.

With any form of L-Cancelling, Ganon can do the Dair a LOT closer to the ground, eliminating the wait from peak of jump to landing. This would effectively offset the HALF-Lag that he experiences when he lands, and should allow you to do the same followups (Although I have not tested this personally as I do not have Brawl+)

You're wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. If ganon shffl's his dair then IT WILL NOT COME OUT. You will literally not be able to hit with it if you try to shffl it. The startup is offset by your aerial control so you can move before it actually connects. The dair hits right before ganon reaches the ground in an AC, so the lag gained by landing during the dair far surpasses the lag lost by being able to shffl it. The dair has huge landing lag.

Also, in my honest opinion, L-Cancelling should be kept as a button input, given there is enough room for it when all is said and done. So what if there' no strategic benefit from not doing it? This is an action game, not chess; there should be some sense of reward for being technically sound. It's not too hard anyway, especially because even Brawl+'s gravity is less than Melee's.

Pointless.

 

[shanus]

I have yet to test the buffering modification, however, I do like the idea of a 0 buffer window at all. Complete control is what i want :D