COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

I completely agree with Alopex

@everyone complaining about power shielding being too good for Brawl+

Wait till it becomes a problem before you claim there is one. I call BS on people's assumptions about it so far, cause no matter what you say there isn't any evidence for what you are saying. It's all hypothetical right now.

We don't need to wait for it to become a problem to see it is a problem. The way we decide codes shouldn't be how we play right now in friendlies, it should be based on tournament play. We don't need to wait for a tourney to find the problem when we can playtest it by pretending we are in a tourney. I don't see how you can call BS on something like this and its a fact that PSing is so easy you can do it in your sleep.

Instead of just telling us to wait for it to become a problem, why don't you tell us why you think it isn't a problem? We already stated ours..

 

[zxeon]

I completely agree with Alopex



We don't need to wait for it to become a problem to see it is a problem. The way we decide codes shouldn't be how we play right now in friendlies, it should be based on tournament play. We don't need to wait for a tourney to find the problem when we can playtest it by pretending we are in a tourney. I don't see how you can call BS on something like this and its a fact that PSing is so easy you can do it in your sleep.

Instead of just telling us to wait for it to become a problem, why don't you tell us why you think it isn't a problem? We already stated ours..

We should wait 'till it becomes a problem. I think we have to wait.

 

[kupo15]

We should wait 'till it becomes a problem. I think we have to wait.

Wait until when? A serious tourney comes around? Which will be...in a month? Two?

I don't feel its realistic to just "wait" when we can find the problem now and its actually staring straight in our faces. It would be as if we say "12.5% hit stun until it becomes a problem." There wasn't anything really broken about that and look, we are changing the value to be lower...

 

[GPDP]

I'm with kupo on this one. I don't think we should wait, when the problems with easy powershielding are right there in plain sight to me.

At the very least, we should disable auto PS. That shouldn't happen at all IMO.

 

[shanus]

I completely agree with Alopex



We don't need to wait for it to become a problem to see it is a problem. The way we decide codes shouldn't be how we play right now in friendlies, it should be based on tournament play. We don't need to wait for a tourney to find the problem when we can playtest it by pretending we are in a tourney. I don't see how you can call BS on something like this and its a fact that PSing is so easy you can do it in your sleep.

Instead of just telling us to wait for it to become a problem, why don't you tell us why you think it isn't a problem? We already stated ours..

Because no tournament matches I've ever seen have been swung by on the basis of powershielding. As we just changed the current shielding dynamic, we have no clue if a defensive gameplay style can actually happen if someone attempts to powershield every attack. For all we know, you are just saying since its easy to do, its gamebreaking. However, there has been no demonstrated evidence, especially with these new beta codes which weaken the current shield game, that PS can dominate in this defensive playstyle.

If you go play games against your friends tonight, perfect power shielding and show that approaches are still very limited, then we have something more concrete. I think Mookierah's point is don't fix what ain't broken, and we certainly don't know if its broken yet.

 

[kupo15]

Because no tournament matches I've ever seen have been swung by on the basis of powershielding. As we just changed the current shielding dynamic, we have no clue if a defensive gameplay style can actually happen if someone attempts to powershield every attack. For all we know, you are just saying since its easy to do, its gamebreaking. However, there has been no demonstrated evidence, especially with these new beta codes which weaken the current shield game, that PS can dominate in this defensive playstyle.

If you go play games against your friends tonight, perfect power shielding and show that approaches are still very limited, then we have something more concrete. I think Mookierah's point is don't fix what ain't broken, and we certainly don't know if its broken yet.

well we have pointed out that PS never decided anything in vanilla brawl because the difference between the two shields were quite negligible. So you are saying you want us to show matches with our friends of OP PSing in action? Are you going to do the same testing yourself to always go for the PS in your matches?

For one, I can't see how you don't see this as a problem and two I don't know what you are looking for before deeming it a problem.

 

[shanus]

well we have pointed out that PS never decided anything in vanilla brawl because the difference between the two shields were quite negligible. So you are saying you want us to show matches with our friends of OP PSing in action? Are you going to do the same testing yourself to always go for the PS in your matches?

For one, I can't see how you don't see this as a problem and two I don't know what you are looking for before deeming it a problem.

I'm saying we should try and see if it is in fact a problem by testing it ourselves. If we go play and see that with the current settings PS is in fact a problem, we fix it. It's kind of a loosely defined parameter as to what is acceptable and what is OP of course, but I think its something we shouldn't just reduce to a smaller window until we see its a problem mechanism?

I don't really care, I just don't think we should be so quick to change mechanics without giving it solid consideration.

 

[kupo15]

Play against a lvl9. Last I checked, they PS a lot of things and given how easy PSing is too do, its not hard to replicate that.

 

[GPDP]

Level 9 CPUs have inhuman reflexes, though, so they're not a very good way to determine if PSing is too easy or not. They would also do it consistently in Melee.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

any fresh videos other than Falcon400 posted?

 

[kupo15]

Level 9 CPUs have inhuman reflexes, though, so they're not a very good way to determine if PSing is too easy or not. They would also do it consistently in Melee.

I realize that but PSing is that easy that given this slower nature game, is not difficult to replicate. My friend was crawling around as luigi and managed to easily PS all of my pit arrows in battle.. :\

 

[Shell]

Yeah, CPU's are a terrible test for that -- they can powershield nearly any attack that's possible to powershield. I think that you should wait to see the effects of this shield stun in a bit longer term before you add more variables to test.

 

[kupo15]

any fresh videos other than Falcon400 posted?

Dont know if you saw mine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRChvPf3vt0&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsS7c8QVTbA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItlQApU02Wc&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAr8d6FkFk4&feature=channel_page

I took the liberty of uploading Kupo's files to my own webspace for convenience. Kupo, you can link these files as a mirror in the OP if you want.

http://www.codecrater.com/misc/kupos_brawl+

How dare you!! Edited ^_^

 

[Revven]

I realize that but PSing is that easy that given this slower nature game, is not difficult to replicate. My friend was crawling around as luigi and managed to easily PS all of my pit arrows in battle.. :\

PSing projectiles is easy as ****, moves on the other hand is a completely different story. You couldn't possibly PS every single move a person throws out, no way, that'd be CPU reflexes right there even IF you were to predict them. And when I say every move, I mean when a human player is constantly doing a different move each and every second. Could you honestly see yourself PSing ten moves? No. Five? Maybe. Three? At most. Is that broken? No.

Humans can only reach a certain point before it becomes impossible to hone said reflex. CPUs could be programmed do it 100% of the time, humans wouldn't be able to replicate that at all. That's why physical move PSes are so accidental because all we're trying to do is shield, like we would in Melee. If we get a PS, we're surprised but, are fast enough to realize it because of the sound the PS makes thus we grab or do whatever out of the shield.

I just see your complaint as an exaggeration, it could never get to the point you're trying to say it will. If we've been playing vanilla Brawl for 9 months now and still can't PS every single physical move we see on purpose and always seemingly get PSes on accident then, why worry for Brawl+?

I don't know about you kupo, but, I never plan a PS unless it's for a projectile or a slow enough move that I know I can PS. A Falcon Nair? Couldn't possibly actually plan a PS for. A Ganon's Usmash or Fsmash? Yes, I could plan a PS for that. And if I miss the timing, the shield takes the damage as planned anyway. Pit's arrow/Ness and or Lucas PK Thunder? Definitely planned out.

Until PSing come to a point where it's done consistently for physical moves, I don't see a reason to lower the window a WHOLE lot yet. But, lowering the window to make them happen accidentally less frequently? Yes, I'm all for that.

 

[kupo15]

I just see your complaint as an exaggeration, it could never get to the point you're trying to say it will. If we've been playing vanilla Brawl for 9 months now and still can't PS every single physical move we see on purpose and always seemingly get PSes on accident then, why worry for Brawl+?

Or you could say we never cared to hone that skill because the punishment from regular shielding was like nothing and acted as if we PSed most of the time AND it was safer

Until PSing come to a point where it's done consistently for physical moves, I don't see a reason to lower the window a WHOLE lot yet. But, lowering the window to make them happen accidentally less frequently? Yes, I'm all for that.

Thats the whole point. Thats all we want to do. Why do people assume we want it to be melee's timing -_-

 

[Shell]

It's strange to be on the conservative side and kupo on the change side.

Also, How do the shieldstun codes affect the frames you get stunned when in regular shield vs. powershield?

 

[GPDP]

Don't forget to get rid of auto PS!

 

[MBlaze]

Woot page 100! :D

As for these codes in the text file in OP I changed the hitstun level from 11.75% to 10% because it was pretty high, but yeah I love the codes. The stage code is one of the best because I like PS2.

Although I think that 10.25% might be considerable, no? :O

 

[kupo15]

Woot page 100! :D

As for these codes in the text file in OP I changed the hitstun level from 11.75% to 10% because it was pretty high, but yeah I love the codes. The stage code is one of the best because I like PS2.

Although I think that 10.25% might be considerable, no? :O

It should have been 10%. It was my mistake that has been corrected.

If you guys want to wait on it...fine...I just can't wait for hit lag MOD o_o

 

[MBlaze]

It should have been 10%. It was my mistake that has been corrected.

If you guys want to wait on it...fine...I just can't wait for hit lag MOD o_o

Wait on what?

 

[kupo15]

The txt file you got was suppose to have 10% hit stun instead of the 11.75% that you changed. It is now changed to be 10% so don't worry

 

[plasmatorture]

Wait on what?

Deciding whether or not PSing should be changed.
This reminds me a bit of the banning Metaknight argument, actually. Like in that, I fall firmly in the "wait and see" category.

HOWEVER, if a modder had the time and wasn't working/didn't feel like working on another code some of us value more highly, then I wouldn't complain if a PS change came about. The more codes to test the better, I say.

 

[petre]

Don't forget to get rid of auto PS!

i believe that just happened because of the buffer system. now that that's lowered, there should be less PSing.

 

[MBlaze]

The txt file you got was suppose to have 10% hit stun instead of the 11.75% that you changed. It is now changed to be 10% so don't worry

Ah, alright. But I noticed when I entered all the codes but the stage builder and the pause code that the lines were almost all filled up, so I'm wondering with the fixing of the buggy codes and I guess somehow a few more codes that we need, we almost one with making Brawl+? :O

And by that I mean just with the codes, we still have to do extensive testing on everything.

 

[kupo15]

i believe that just happened because of the buffer system. now that that's lowered, there should be less PSing.

Not at all. Hold down the shield button during any lag. It will still pop up. Auto PSing frequency has to do with the large window...not the buffer code

Ah, alright. But I noticed when I entered all the codes but the stage builder and the pause code that the lines were almost all filled up, so I'm wondering with the fixing of the buggy codes and I guess somehow a few more codes that we need, we almost one with making Brawl+? :O

And by that I mean just with the codes, we still have to do extensive testing on everything.

o_O

I around 200 lines which will go down I predict to about 160ish when we combine them

 

[MBlaze]

Not at all. Hold down the shield button during any lag. It will still pop up. Auto PSing frequency has to do with the large window...not the buffer code


o_O

I around 200 lines which will go down I predict to about 160ish when we combine them

That's good to hear, as long as we have more crap to put in. xD

 

[plasmatorture]

You have 260 lines of code in that .txt, kupo, assuming your Line # for all the codes was correct.

244 without overlap and pause camera.

Also, what does your pause camera do that requires 15 lines? I have a 2 line code that I've been using which seems to be just fine:

Unrestricted pause camera [Link, original Y.S.]
040A7D60 4E800020
04109D88 38800001

 

[kupo15]

Assuming my code count is correct, I am currently using up 217 lines. The Dash canceling is there but I don't use it.

The camera does this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V-D0AsRqRQ

 

[MookieRah]

Or you could say we never cared to hone that skill because the punishment from regular shielding was like nothing and acted as if we PSed most of the time AND it was safer

And there you have it, this is all based on a "potential" problem that has no actual evidence behind it. You assume that cause of vanilla brawl people didn't master power shielding and that in Brawl+ it will be game breaking. Unless you can provide significant evidence to prove that you can power shield a significant portion of melee attacks then your entire point is moot. If you can't provide this evidence, then why should a coder bother writing a code, and more importantly, why should we consider using it for competitively play?

 

[kupo15]

And there you have it, this is all based on a "potential" problem that has no actual evidence behind it. You assume that cause of vanilla brawl people didn't master power shielding and that in Brawl+ it will be game breaking. Unless you can provide significant evidence to prove that you can power shield a significant portion of melee attacks then your entire point is moot. If you can't provide this evidence, then why should a coder bother writing a code, and more importantly, why should we consider using it for competitively play?

And how exactly would one go around to prove that? And as I said before. There is nothing really broken about 11.75% hit stun so why not just play with that if we can't prove its not broken?

Besides, its a theory of mine and other ppls but I'll wait it out for now...

 

[Almas]

The great thing about Brawl+ is that we can choose what we do and don't put in. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If at a later time we see Powershielding to be so powerful, THEN it can get tweaked.

Also the amount of lines people think can be chopped off codes seems to increase every time it gets mentioned.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The camera does this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V-D0AsRqRQ

That camera code is freakin' awesome, don't know how I missed that one!

I'm fine waiting to see on the PS code, but I encourage anyone playing with the shield stun codes to attempt to abuse the PS so we can really see if it's needed or not.

 

[kupo15]

Also the amount of lines people think can be chopped off codes seems to increase every time it gets mentioned.

yea lol. funny how that works...

 

[Heavyarms2050]

can u guys explain to me how the buffer modifier works?

 

[kupo15]

Replace the both X's with whatever buffer window you want.

0-A

0=0 frames
9= 9 frames
A= 10 frames

Brawls default is A

 

[Almas]

If you input a command, but cannot perform the action that would be associated with it, the game will wait up to A (10) frames, checking each frame to see if you can perform the action. Reducing the value in the code decreases the amount of frames for which the game will check to see if you can perform the action.

 

[peachfvl]

what values have ppl tested for both shieldstun codes?
how big should i leave the buffer window? 5?

 

[kupo15]

Try 3 for the big code and 4 for the small code for shield stun as a start

try 3 for the buffer but its personal preference at this point.

 

[phate]

I'm sorry if this was answered already but could you please explain the stage freezing to me? I tried to get that to work but my gecko thing wont load the game with those codes on. I appreciate the help.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

quick sombody throw a montage of the shield stun code