D
Deleted member
Guest
the fake hitlag, more of a imaginary list than anything really, you should try tornado spam at 9% hitstun or more and you see that it needs fixing. stuff like that
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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Who cares if you can do it by accident? Why does that matter? Even if you power shielded by accident, you are more than likely not going to be able to take advantage of the power shield cause you didn't think it was going to happen.
I don't think it's too easy. The thing is in Melee it was so hard that one could only power shield projectiles. In brawl the gap is widened to where you can actually use it for Melee moves, which are a lot harder to gauge the timing for. There is no evidence to support that it's currently "too good" as a lot of stuff in current top level Brawl aren't power shielded.
Don't get me wrong Kupo, I can understand why you are concerned about it. With defenses being nerfed, keeping in Power shielding as is will become way better. It will prompt people to want to learn how to power shield everything. We'll have to wait and see if that gets out of hand or not, but right now we have no evidence to go on.
One last thing, what the heck is "hit lag"? I'm gone for like a week and there is all these new codes and jargon being tossed around.
plasmatorture
Smash Journeyman
Fake hitlag is such a low priority we shouldn't even be thinking about it IMO. When it comes to character specific fixes, things like Ness/Lucas/Diddy NoBounce recover, or MetaKnight balance adjustments, or a slew of other things are far more important than a minor cosmetic change.
MBlaze
Smash Champion
Kupo I need a favor of you. Since you guys are discussing the ideal code set so far for Brawl+ and I have a tourney on Saturday, I was wondering if you could make the code file on the codes that we all agree on by Friday so I can put it on my SD and bring it the next day to let the Melee players and lovers (us who actually play Brawl but prefer Melee) could play on it so far so I can convince more people.
So far people are saying "EWW" and they don't like the idea because they still get the idea that we're trying to make it into Melee for some reason but I'll prove them wrong once they get a taste of these codes.
Since I got my new laptop and I can't really use the code manager on it... yeah....
So could we all decide, then I can bring it Saturday? Plus this would help for people who want to play online with it so far so we have a less better chance of de-synchs.
I would appreciate it if I could have the code file ASAP once it's made and agreed on so I can actually try it out and get a feel for it myself.
So how about it?
So far people are saying "EWW" and they don't like the idea because they still get the idea that we're trying to make it into Melee for some reason but I'll prove them wrong once they get a taste of these codes.
Since I got my new laptop and I can't really use the code manager on it... yeah....
So could we all decide, then I can bring it Saturday? Plus this would help for people who want to play online with it so far so we have a less better chance of de-synchs.I would appreciate it if I could have the code file ASAP once it's made and agreed on so I can actually try it out and get a feel for it myself.
So how about it?
kupo15
Smash Hero
yes we shall see if PSing gets out of hand. At least in melee when you accidentally PSed a melee attack, you were pushed away...
Hitlag is the freeze frames when you get hit and it is when you can SDI. This window is too big which makes perfect DI for every attack easier to do not to mention the game feels a little sluggish. Its nearly impossible to mindgame moves so that their DI is used against them for example falcon. They DI forthe dthrow when in fact you use an uthrow instead. Once they see the start up of the uthrow, they immediately switch their DI up and can perfectly DI this move due to the current hitlag window. I was able to go from DIing a ganon fsmash Down before the hit (i was not expecting it) to completely up and I mean completely when I got hit. If the hitlag window was reduced by half, then this would not work. I would not have survived for being caught off guard.
Look at the knee. It is 100% pure hitlag and needs to be cut in half.
MasterRaichu
Smash Apprentice
Don't forget though, you didn't only powershield in Melee because you wanted to reflect projectiles... you did it because it would reduce your shield stun so that you could attack right away. Powershielding in Melee was more difficult because of this stun reduction, as well as things like reflecting projectiles. Now that we actually have shield stun that works, I think a smaller window would benefit the game because if you're able to powershield so easily, you never see the effects of shield stun at all. You should be rewarded for good timing, and be served difficulty for bad timing.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Marioblaze
Kupo already has his text file available for download. I'd just use that, with the exception of toning down the hit stun a bit. I think it still has 11.25% on.
Another thing, is anyone working on making that character speed up code not dumb? It'd be nice to implement a slight universal speed increase. With that plus existing codes we would pretty much have everything covered.
Kupo already has his text file available for download. I'd just use that, with the exception of toning down the hit stun a bit. I think it still has 11.25% on.
OHHHH ok. Now I know what you are talking about. Yeah, that does need to be reduced. It's a bit stupid as is.
Another thing, is anyone working on making that character speed up code not dumb? It'd be nice to implement a slight universal speed increase. With that plus existing codes we would pretty much have everything covered.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Its not just a cosmetic change. It affects DI and combos.
Removal of fake hit lag and hitlag reductions=lower hitstun value
apparently you did not get my pm. I am down to 10% and would like to go lower but hitlag is preventing me from doing so
MBlaze
Smash Champion
kupo15
Smash Hero
ill upload a gct file for you.Oh we're not using 11.75% anymore? D:
KUPO.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
@MookieRah:
Hit lag occurs when you hit someone and both of you freeze for a few frames before flying off in hitstun. Think of falcon's knee. During these frames, you can SDI.
However, some moves have "fake" hit lag, in that although both of you freeze for a moment after the attack connects, the person that's hit cannot SDI. Moves like Marth's Fsmash and Zelda's Heel come to mind.
Some people are proposing to reduce the amount of hitlag to limit the SDI of certain moves, as well as removing the "fake" cosmetic hitlag for flow. I personally enjoy the feeling of the "fake" hitlag. I don't understand what people mean by it "interrupting" flow. If you land a knee, heel, or tippered smash, there usually is no flow after that point. The combo's over. plasmatorture is correct that it is the lowest of the low priorities.
Edit: Beaten to the punch 6 times
Hit lag occurs when you hit someone and both of you freeze for a few frames before flying off in hitstun. Think of falcon's knee. During these frames, you can SDI.
However, some moves have "fake" hit lag, in that although both of you freeze for a moment after the attack connects, the person that's hit cannot SDI. Moves like Marth's Fsmash and Zelda's Heel come to mind.
Some people are proposing to reduce the amount of hitlag to limit the SDI of certain moves, as well as removing the "fake" cosmetic hitlag for flow. I personally enjoy the feeling of the "fake" hitlag. I don't understand what people mean by it "interrupting" flow. If you land a knee, heel, or tippered smash, there usually is no flow after that point. The combo's over. plasmatorture is correct that it is the lowest of the low priorities.
Edit: Beaten to the punch 6 times
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I got your PM Kupo, it's just that on your text file it still says it's 11.25%. I was really happy to see that the stun was lowered though :-P.
I kinda like the fake hit lag, it gives you time to pause the game, flip the camera around, unpause and watch your opponent get blasted. Always fun. It definitely doesn't warrant a code to fix though, even if some people dislike it.
I kinda like the fake hit lag, it gives you time to pause the game, flip the camera around, unpause and watch your opponent get blasted. Always fun. It definitely doesn't warrant a code to fix though, even if some people dislike it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
read my post above this. And who says you can't combo zeldas heel into something else if they DI bad?
Hitlag reduction wont affect DI just the ability to DI correctly because it requires a faster reaction which ultimately means less hit stun is needed
Does my text really say that? I need to fix that. I think the code is 10% but the comments say 11.75%..whoops
MBlaze
Smash Champion
Thanks, just pm it to me when it's ready or put it in the OP and tell me which text file it will be.
kupo15
Smash Hero
ok I re uploaded my text file and added my gct file
We are trying to remove the 1 liner but 3 is too little for the 1 liner because you can attack inbetween hits from CFs nair
We are trying to remove the 1 liner but 3 is too little for the 1 liner because you can attack inbetween hits from CFs nair
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
At worst fake hitlag is annoying. I have yet to see it hinder Zelda players from comboing effectively, and with Marth that would finish the combo. If it only really affects Zelda, then it's not important enough to fix, cause if you wanted to make Zelda better you could do much better things than remove fake hitlag.
zxeon
Smash Lord
Could you PM me your code txt file Kupo?
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@everyone who wants Kupo's files
CHECK THE FIRST PAGE PLOX!
CHECK THE FIRST PAGE PLOX!
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
or the FAQ! lulz
kupo15
Smash Hero
Yea I agree. Its not THAT big of an issue right now. The regular hitlag mod however, is important. Thank god falcons knee is fake hitlag free!
zxeon
Smash Lord
**** it rapidshare. I can't download it from there. I need someone to copy and past the contents of it and send it to me in a PM. Please...
kupo15
Smash Hero
then what should I upload it to?
BTW. I will be moving shield stun in the BETA section until the weak hits are fixed to have no kb change and shield shove
BTW. I will be moving shield stun in the BETA section until the weak hits are fixed to have no kb change and shield shove
zxeon
Smash Lord
It really doesn't matter for me since my DS doesn't use Java so hardly any upload sites work for me.
MBlaze
Smash Champion
I'm trying out the test file in OP and I have to say it's pretty good so far, but I left the buffer code left out when imput my codes, wth does that do anyway? x)
zxeon
Smash Lord
someone sent me the codes in a PM already so don't worry about it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
The short answer...you don't kill yourself
The long answer...it gives you more control by forcing you to input your next move closer to when the current action is done and when the new action is ready to be performed.
If there is anyone here that doesn't think Brawl PS is broken, then you have not played against enough decent campers.
Plain and simple, the easy PS is the BEST camping tool.
I've said this multiple times already and yet for some reason it never seems to get truly acknowledged: PS is one of the main reasons why Brawl is so campy and defensive, and it will keep Brawl+ that way if it's not adjusted.
When a tool so powerful, that negates so many approaches, is so easy to consistently do, why go out of your way to approach and put yourself in danger of getting PS'ed?
It's not hard to PS consistently. It really, really isn't.
What's the point of adding shieldstun when you can just PS every time for complete and total protection with no risk?
What exactly is the risk with PSing right now? Either you get it, or you shield, because you will RARELY miss the PS timing and get hit currently.
If you don't think that's true, then you yourself have not yet tried to play a ridiculously campy game. Put even 5 minutes of effort into PSing right now, and you'll be a pro at it already. I'm not even kidding.
WE DON'T WANT MELEE PS'ING!!
How many times do I have to say that?
Yes, we KNOW Melee PSing was useless and pretty much impossible to use for melee attacks, and was barely better for projectiles.
We don't want to bring it back down to that.
We just want to make it slightly harder. Still useful, still very capable of being done consistently, but requiring far better timing and creating the actual chance of a missed PS causing you to get hit.
And there is no way fake hitlag or even hitlag in general should be more of a priority than PSing. I don't even think DD should come before it.
When all the fuss dies down and all the codes are set, people will once again realize that the easy PS lets them just hang back and punish approaches. And, hey, why not? Now you can even start a combo after easily punishing an approach with a PS!
"Brawl PS: The easier way to start a combo."
Plain and simple, the easy PS is the BEST camping tool.
I've said this multiple times already and yet for some reason it never seems to get truly acknowledged: PS is one of the main reasons why Brawl is so campy and defensive, and it will keep Brawl+ that way if it's not adjusted.
When a tool so powerful, that negates so many approaches, is so easy to consistently do, why go out of your way to approach and put yourself in danger of getting PS'ed?
It's not hard to PS consistently. It really, really isn't.
What's the point of adding shieldstun when you can just PS every time for complete and total protection with no risk?
What exactly is the risk with PSing right now? Either you get it, or you shield, because you will RARELY miss the PS timing and get hit currently.
If you don't think that's true, then you yourself have not yet tried to play a ridiculously campy game. Put even 5 minutes of effort into PSing right now, and you'll be a pro at it already. I'm not even kidding.
WE DON'T WANT MELEE PS'ING!!
How many times do I have to say that?
Yes, we KNOW Melee PSing was useless and pretty much impossible to use for melee attacks, and was barely better for projectiles.
We don't want to bring it back down to that.
We just want to make it slightly harder. Still useful, still very capable of being done consistently, but requiring far better timing and creating the actual chance of a missed PS causing you to get hit.
And there is no way fake hitlag or even hitlag in general should be more of a priority than PSing. I don't even think DD should come before it.
When all the fuss dies down and all the codes are set, people will once again realize that the easy PS lets them just hang back and punish approaches. And, hey, why not? Now you can even start a combo after easily punishing an approach with a PS!
"Brawl PS: The easier way to start a combo."
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I took the liberty of uploading Kupo's files to my own webspace for convenience. Kupo, you can link these files as a mirror in the OP if you want.
http://www.codecrater.com/misc/kupos_brawl+
As for SS, I agree that it needs to be in beta, but I also agree that it's currently still a bit better than vanilla Brawl. The push isn't all that bad. The other day I did a well spaced fair off the ledge with Sonic against a DDD, and he actually, get this, missed the shield grab because of the stun+push, and I was able to land and actually...wait for it...fsmash him for a KO before he could react. That's exactly what should happen when a well spaced attack messes up your opponent's timing.
zxeon
Smash Lord
Congratulations.
I wonder what Sakurai would say if someone showed him Brawl+?
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
I've played against many top players in the northeast, and I'm sorry, but you are exaggerating way too much.
Sakurai: (laughs)
Also, I still think there needs to be a separate button input for PS. Perhaps a code that allows you to modify which button it would be, so as to cater to people with different control setups.
zxeon
Smash Lord
The PS is pretty broken I hate the way it just happens when you hold down the shield button.
I agree with GPDP if powershield should be mapped to a input that isn't shield.
I agree with GPDP if powershield should be mapped to a input that isn't shield.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
I actually agree with Aloplex. I said it before and I'll say it again: the reason you don't see rampant PS'ing in high level play is because you don't need to PS in vanilla Brawl. The regular shield, nine times out of ten, gives you the same results as the power shield because the regular shield is just as over powered. I think it's fairly obvious that with a shield stun code in place, and the revelation of a shield that actually puts you at a disadvantage, people are now going to actually try to power shield things. And I think it's pretty safe to say that with Brawl's current PS window, if you try, your going to succeed.
Let me tell you a little story. One day me and my friend were just messing around. I was camping like a homo and he was just sitting there PS'ing all my projectiles for fun. Then I started to come in, and he decided to just have more fun with the power shield for kicks. I seriously kid you not when I say that he was able to sit there a PS multiple hits of a jab combo, and even multi-hit aerials with alarming success. He didn't spend even 1 minute practicing power shielding since the game came out, and he was able to do this simply because he was trying. Now, he doesn't PS like this in regular play, even though he could. And this is simply because regular shielding is, again nine times out of ten, just as good a solution.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
I completely agree that fake hitlag should be at the bottom of our priority list, but I figured I'd point out a thread that was made recently that deals with this, and how it's likely that it applies to many more moves than just the obvious ones we've found.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214068
As for PSing, if that doesn't get fixed, brawl+ will be arguably worse than brawl. Defense is still super powerful, but now you get punished even worse for attacking.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214068
As for PSing, if that doesn't get fixed, brawl+ will be arguably worse than brawl. Defense is still super powerful, but now you get punished even worse for attacking.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@everyone complaining about power shielding being too good for Brawl+
Wait till it becomes a problem before you claim there is one. I call BS on people's assumptions about it so far, cause no matter what you say there isn't any evidence for what you are saying. It's all hypothetical right now.
Wait till it becomes a problem before you claim there is one. I call BS on people's assumptions about it so far, cause no matter what you say there isn't any evidence for what you are saying. It's all hypothetical right now.
zxeon
Smash Lord
This is true.