COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Shell]

Would MK's d-smash nerf still work if the hitbox bug was corrected? Or would it just be a longer attack, as I suspect?

 

[spunit262]

Do you think there'd be a way to make hit boxes and frame count visible? It could help in retrieving data a lot.

That would require a way to draw polygons on the screen, I don't think anyone currently knows how to do that. Then we'd need to extract the shape and size of the hitbox, how hard that would be to find, who know.

Would MK's d-smash nerf still work if the hitbox bug was corrected? Or would it just be a longer attack, as I suspect?

I believe the slow down starts after the hitbox disappears.

 

[spunit262]

Ignore Me.

 

[grim mouser]

Shield during DD... sweet. Time to test that out. Thanks, spunit! =)

 

[Shell]

Thanks spunit. Also, I brought this up a little while ago, but how do people feel about DC during initial dash? And how doable do you think this would be spunit?

 

[kupo15]

Thanks spunit. Also, I brought this up a little while ago, but how do people feel about DC during initial dash? And how doable do you think this would be spunit?

I think all he would have to do is c/p the line segment for the run and use that for the dash to dash cancel.

could you dash cancel dashes in melee or just runs

 

[spunit262]

Thanks spunit. Also, I brought this up a little while ago, but how do people feel about DC during initial dash? And how doable do you think this would be spunit?

Init-Dash Cancel [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2764EBC 00000007
90810014 54846CFE
2C0417E5 41A00024
8081009C 80A4007C
80A50038 2C050005
41A10010 3C004F00
80840014 90040040
60000000 00000000

 

[kupo15]

Thanks spunit. Also, I brought this up a little while ago, but how do people feel about DC during initial dash? And how doable do you think this would be spunit?

Oh btw, just tested and you can not in melee and for a good reason, it'll make pivots worthless

Oh and I figured out the camera code for the most part. Looky looky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7H2i-SF1rs&feature=channel_page

 

[Shadic]

You should make a comparison like your other video. That was a lot easier to see the differences in.

 

[PanzerOceania]

he did, just at the end of the vid if you watch to the end.

 

[kupo15]

I think 2x was too dynamic. 1.75x feels better

 

[Shadic]

he did, just at the end of the vid if you watch to the end.

Oh. I suppose I shouldn't have stopped 3 minutes in. >_>

 

[kupo15]

Oh. I suppose I shouldn't have stopped 3 minutes in. >_>

I added links to the parts of the vid so you wouldn't get...."bored"

 

[SketchHurricane]

Just want to bring this up one mo' gin. Somebody earlier asked a valid question: we've been putting all this effort into bringing back old mechanics that worked, why haven't we thought about introducing new things that would set Brawl+ apart? One answer was that new mechanics are line consuming and difficult to balance.

However, FF anytime is one mechanic that I think has real merit to be a new smash feature with B+. It's based off of something that already has applications, so it's not foreign at all. It's simply an extension that opens up possibilities.

Now I'm not saying make FF anytime a global thing for every move (very bad idea). I think it can be cleverly applied to certain characters that need buffs anyway to really open up their game. The top case study being Samus, who we've been looking at quite a bit buff-wise. In my short testing, it seemed apparent that Samus gets the most by far out of FF-anytime specials. It would really give her a unique edge and set her apart from the cast.

Ok, after messing with FF anytime, I've come to the following conclusions:

1) Obviously, not all moves should be FF'd

2) However, there are a few that could work as character buffs. I'll only list certain characters (ones that could probably stand a buff).

Link: FF upB is actually pretty cool. He can grab the ledge on the way down, unlike Sonic's FF upB (that made me sad). He can use it from the ledge to clear out the opponent with upB and regrab with the fastfall.

Ike: FF sideB is also cool. You can full hop, then FF into sideB, which will come out just as you land!

Bowser: FF upB would help him get down when he has to recover high. FF after the bowser slam can help him tech chase. FF downB actually slows you down, since the regular downB is faster. Mindgames?

Samus: FF missiles are godly, nuff said. (BTW Sam gets a lot more out of the FF ziar than Link does). FF downB is actually a cool way to have a bomb fall right in front of you as you land and do any attack behind it! Just full hop and FF right after the downB. Her FF upB works like Links, and could probably be described as broken. Samus is the undisputed FF special master.

Ivy: FF razor leaf is pretty coo, but I don't think Ivy needs much more buffing. If he/she does, this would be a good one.

Chari: FF Rock is awesome, as you would expect.

Jiggz: FF pound is pretty cool. Not amazing, but makes it better.

Yoshi: Doesn't get much, but FF egg can get you out of the air. His downB acts just like bowsers, but is easier to notice since he is smaller.

 

[zxeon]

Oh btw, just tested and you can not in melee and for a good reason, it'll make pivots worthless

Who needs pivots anyway? Pivoting is already super easy. Thanks again spunit.

 

[grim mouser]

Shield during DD is very useful for going after a downed enemy. Tomorrow I'll try out that camera- could you post the code with settings you're using, Kupo?

 

[kupo15]

Shield during DD is very useful for going after a downed enemy. Tomorrow I'll try out that camera- could you post the code with settings you're using, Kupo?

sure. Its set to 1.75x. My vid was 2x which I felt was too much

48000000 80b8a428
De000000 80008180
58010000 00000078
De000000 80008180
16000010 00000030
42a60000 447a0000
3d4ccccd 3d4ccccd
00000000 00000000
00000000 Bdb2b8c2
3f060a92 3FE00000
3f800000 3f800000
E0000000 80008000

 

[zxeon]

Even at ×2 the difference wasn't that noticeable.

 

[kupo15]

Even at ×2 the difference wasn't that noticeable.

Thats bull. You need to play it to see. Its only a beta but I would like the camera to look ahead of the player more like it did in melee but I don't think that variable is in the code in as a yellow

 

[zxeon]

I guess I'd need to play it. Lol why did you quote me?

 

[kupo15]

I guess I'd need to play it. Lol why did you quote me?

because.... >_>:smiliegor

 

[zxeon]

I really like the idea of the int dash cancel. Toe to toe with kupo just like old times.

 

[Finns7]

HOW is the teching code O_ o i was gone today some give me facts

 

[kupo15]

HOW is the teching code O_ o i was gone today some give me facts

It does make it easier, but you can buffer an AD when you first go into the tumble which shouldn't happen. Also, the hitstun animation should be included if it isn't already. Can we really not go past 10 frames of buffering? i would like to try 20 frames for the teching fix code

 

[Finns7]

True, its a shame about that, I wonder how this effects hitstun...I gotta test

 

[Eldiran]

Hey, I hate to repost my questions and harass the boards, but my post was and probably will be again, easily drowned out in the flow of new posts. Here's hoping maybe I can get enough screentime for a response!

Hey! I figure this is the best place to go to ask about Brawl+ codes. In the other thread, "Brawlplusery", there are codes, "Metaknight's Flimsy Armor" and "Bowser's Thick Skin".

I tried using them, but the end result was that Metaknight was impervious to any knockback and Bowser was immune to all damage. What's up with that? Am I missing a code?

Thanks!

 

[zxeon]

I think Almas already answered your question Eldiran.

 

[Alopex]

I'm just stating how melee worked because that is what worked in the past. (non charging neutral B specials) Who knows what OPness might occur if we include all projectiles. We don't know what will happen if we do

Well, that's why we do testing.

We don't just accept the past standard without testing new things under a new standard.

SketchHurricane hit it right on the money.

What he did is PRECISELY what we should be doing. He took the FF anytime and tested stuff out for applicability and validity. Then provided feedback and proposed a direction with imposed limitations.

That's the kind of thinking we need to get going here. We need to think about "What can we make work in Brawl+?" instead of just "What worked before?"

I'm going to quote him for truth:

However, FF anytime is one mechanic that I think has real merit to be a new smash feature with B+. It's based off of something that already has applications, so it's not foreign at all. It's simply an extension that opens up possibilities.

Now I'm not saying make FF anytime a global thing for every move (very bad idea). I think it can be cleverly applied to certain characters that need buffs anyway to really open up their game. The top case study being Samus, who we've been looking at quite a bit buff-wise. In my short testing, it seemed apparent that Samus gets the most by far out of FF-anytime specials. It would really give her a unique edge and set her apart from the cast.

We have the chance to really make things unique in Brawl+ with this, and I am vehemently opposed to the idea of discarding Sketch's notion simply because it "wasn't in Smash before". We can move this game forward. We don't have to always be looking back. All we need to do is test things.


With that in mind, spunit, do you think it's feasible to create a modifiable FF code that would work with action ID's like the Frame mod code does? That would be an amazing tool to help us selectively apply and test FF Moves.


EDIT:
P.S. kupo,
I saw your video showcasing the camera mod, and just gotta say that the Brawl+ camera you had on really had me feeling woozy. It was just too... bouncy... for me. It moved back and forth too much and I just couldn't follow it without getting a headache... so yeah, whatever setting you were using there definitely seemed "too dynamic".

 

[shanus]

Well, that's why we do testing.

We don't just accept the past standard without testing new things under a new standard.

SketchHurricane hit it right on the money.

What he did is PRECISELY what we should be doing. He took the FF anytime and tested stuff out for applicability and validity. Then provided feedback and proposed a direction with imposed limitations.

That's the kind of thinking we need to get going here. We need to think about "What can we make work in Brawl+?" instead of just "What worked before?"

I'm going to quote him for truth:



We have the chance to really make things unique in Brawl+ with this, and I am vehemently opposed to the idea of discarding Sketch's notion simply because it "wasn't in Smash before". We can move this game forward. We don't have to always be looking back. All we need to do is test things.


With that in mind, spunit, do you think it's feasible to create a modifiable FF code that would work with action ID's like the Frame mod code does? That would be an amazing tool to help us selectively apply and test FF Moves.


EDIT:
P.S. kupo,
I saw your video showcasing the camera mod, and just gotta say that the Brawl+ camera you had on really had me feeling woozy. It was just too... bouncy... for me. It moved back and forth too much and I just couldn't follow it without getting a headache... so yeah, whatever setting you were using there definitely seemed "too dynamic".

The camera code was like having someone shake my head left and right while playing.

About the FF anytime mod, 1. it causes crashes sometimes, 2. it eliminates the purpose of a shorthop, 3. fast aerials with low lag become broken as hell, 4. this code has more potential to ruin the game than HAD or MAD

 

[shanus]

Who needs pivots anyway? Pivoting is already super easy. Thanks again spunit.

No. Just no. Dash cancel from initial dash is a huge NO.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The camera code was like having someone shake my head left and right while playing.

About the FF anytime mod, 1. it causes crashes sometimes, 2. it eliminates the purpose of a shorthop, 3. fast aerials with low lag become broken as hell, 4. this code has more potential to ruin the game than HAD or MAD

Did you even read the post? Of course we wouldn't have FF anytime as a global code. I was talking specifically about giving certain B moves FF and nothing more. It's already been QFT twice, lets really consider it.

BTW, I tested nearly every character's B moves and didn't get a freeze (I only left out Luigi, DK, DDD, Lucario, Peach, TL, Sheik/Zelda)

 

[shanus]

Alright, well Alopex made it sound like it could be applied to more than B moves. Things like lasers and missiles would be cool. However, I still do not like how can you FF before reaching apex.

edit:

Spunit, in your tech window fix code, can include the following:

If actionID=tumble or player is in hitstun, set buffer = 10?

Then I think the code is perfect.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^If you make it buffer 10 during hitstun, then you'll enable people to buffer attacks and airdodges whenever someone attempts something that isn't a "true" combo.

 

[SketchHurricane]

^^If you make it buffer 10 during hitstun, then you'll enable people to buffer attacks and airdodges whenever someone attempts something that isn't a "true" combo.

Not really a bad thing. It's actually one of the good things about buffer, not one of it's problems.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It makes "strings" less effective, which is a pro or a con depending on your perspective (I find it to be a con, since it reduces the effects of positional advantages attained at the end of the combo).

That 3 or 4 extra frames gained when someone misses the timing of their airdodge because their trying to mash (or because they were expecting you to do a faster attack and thus didn't even attempt to airdodge) it is often enough to let one or two more hits "chain." What I think is most important is the second part.

They did not expect that slow attack, so they didn't attempt to stop it. They weren't mashing airdodge because they weren't trying to escape what they thought would be a true combo, but rather they were focusing on minimizing damage in later steps of the combo (by forcing you to follow with other hits that wouldn't chain into anything later). But with buffering, they can simply buffer an airdodge every time while doing the previous things that I mentioned, which defeats the purpose of the mix-up.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Could we give FF anytime to Yoshi for all but his B moves? Easy way to enable a sort of DJC. Or is that even an issue anymore?

 

[shanus]

^^It makes "strings" less effective, which is a pro or a con depending on your perspective (I find it to be a con, since it reduces the effects of positional advantages attained at the end of the combo).

That 3 or 4 extra frames gained when someone misses the timing of their airdodge because their trying to mash (or because they were expecting you to do a faster attack and thus didn't even attempt to airdodge) it is often enough to let one or two more hits "chain." What I think is most important is the second part.

They did not expect that slow attack, so they didn't attempt to stop it. They weren't mashing airdodge because they weren't trying to escape what they thought would be a true combo, but rather they were focusing on minimizing damage in later steps of the combo (by forcing you to follow with other hits that wouldn't chain into anything later). But with buffering, they can simply buffer an airdodge every time while doing the previous things that I mentioned, which defeats the purpose of the mix-up.

That's how I see it anyway.

True. What if we changed hitstun buffer to like 4, and tumble to 10? That way you can tech things like spikes a bit better, but still harder than a tumble.

 

[Alopex]

Considering how I made specific references to Sketch's posts and even asked spunit for modifiable code a la Frame Mod, shanus, I don't see how you came up with that conclusion regarding my stance on FF Moves. I use "FF Moves" instead of FF Specials because Zairs aren't specials.

EDIT: See? Look at Tatsuman's idea.

If we could apply FF anytime to Yoshi, Lucas, and Ness's DJ only, then we could have a form of DJC without losing the rising aerials that are such an important part of the Yoshi game in Brawl. And the DJ isn't a special so, once again, FF Moves.

It's ideas like that that we shouldn't just ignore because we have a fear of what is new.

We fix the code. We test things out. We see what works. That was my stance from the very beginning, shanus, and my previous post made that quite clear.

Please don't overlook the fact that, in a previous post to kupo, I already mentioned that FF'ing before apex is not at all something I support. With the only obvious exception now being the DJ FF, since it's not a DJC if you have to wait for the apex of the DJ to FF it for the cancel...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Thinking about the airdodge system in brawl, other than the obvious difference from Melee's, I would like to see a code that eliminates airdodging out of the tumble animation.

This is the immediate problem with Brawl's airdodge and lack of hitstun anyway. If you get rid of the airdodge through tumble, it would increase combo potential without the need for much hitstun.

edit: wow, I didn't even notice that this is what the curent conversation is related to before posting this. My idea may make teching easier anyway, concidering teching was easy in melee because you couldn't airdodge out of tumble.

 

[grim mouser]

^ Spunit and PW made a code that disables AD out of tumble. Not sure if you saw that yet.