COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Swordplay]

Duh........and Yes I still think Samus and Link are missing something but I'm not sure what. o wait I know.

Kill moves.

If you won't combo into them with FF zairs you should improve spin attack knockback (it sucks and its Links sig move and has terrible end lag. The risk reward is completly out of proportion.)

Samus needs a nair/smash knockback increase

If you won't improve these I'll continue to argue for FF zair. The elitist of this forum seem to shut ideas down before ever testing them which is sad. I'll bring it up later once the FF special code is finished.

 

[The Cape]

Somethings dont need testing to know they are a bad idea.

If you use the zairs well, which from what I see here you probably arent, they are very formidable and hard to approach through.

 

[Starscream]

For what it's worth, I'm getting freezes in my codeset after the duration of super/poison mushrooms and when picking up metal boxes and bunny hoods. Basically all the items that affect character gravity, jump height, etc. This is when using the Brawlplusery codeset with my own hitlag, momentum and jab lock fix. So if you play with items or are playing through SSE (like I was because my 360 broke) then be sure to avoid them.

 

[cooler1339]

Yeah Link and Samus own. We all know they have a great move like the knee, tipper, insane speed + kill power.

Fast characters are overpowered.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Not all characters have to be amazing. They just all have to be useable.
There will always be characters who are worse than the rest of the cast (as in, there will always be bottom tier characters). The question shouldn't be "are they as good as everyone else?", since that is litterally impossible to achieve. It should be "are they significantly worse than everyone else," which would be defined by how many hard counters they have. If a lot of their matchups are like 20:80....then we've got a problem. But if they have only a few...then that's actually pretty normal.

 

[Adapt]

Did anyone else notice that when you have the no-ASL code on, and you hit someone near the edge with your up-B you sweetspot the ledge?

This is most noticeable when you use Donkey Kong. When no one is near the edge you just hover there for a while until your up-B finishes, but if there is a character near the edge you hit them then immediately sweetspot.

 

[GPDP]

Did anyone else notice that when you have the no-ASL code on, and you hit someone near the edge with your up-B you sweetspot the ledge?

This is most noticeable when you use Donkey Kong. When no one is near the edge you just hover there for a while until your up-B finishes, but if there is a character near the edge you hit them then immediately sweetspot.

Yeah, we've noticed this long ago.

Shouldn't there be like a FAQ or something that addresses things like this so they're not constantly being brought to our attention?

 

[Adapt]

Yeah, we've noticed this long ago.

Shouldn't there be like a FAQ or something that addresses things like this so they're not constantly being brought to our attention?

that would be smart... a list of known small bugs

 

[products]

Does anyone have a premade codeset they would like to share with me? I'm so behind.

 

[Shell]

^^Not all characters have to be amazing. They just all have to be useable.
There will always be characters who are worse than the rest of the cast (as in, there will always be bottom tier characters). The question shouldn't be "are they as good as everyone else?", since that is litterally impossible to achieve. It should be "are they significantly worse than everyone else," which would be defined by how many hard counters they have. If a lot of their matchups are like 20:80....then we've got a problem. But if they have only a few...then that's actually pretty normal.

I see what you're saying about the hard counters bit, but my question for you is:

"If the majority of people (especially BRs) can acknowledge the fact that a character, metagame matchups etc. included, isn't quite on the same level (but is... playable) why would there be any reason to leave it that way?"

 

[kupo15]

How much do you plan to decrease the ledge invincibility by?

O and if you do fast fall specials, I request fast fall zairs too. Currently they do not fast fall.

If you can do fast fall specials, and fast fall normal air moves, you should be allowed to do fast fall zairs.

My character specific reasons......

1. It would fix any remaining problems with Samus. Right now a lot of you complain about her lack of kill moves but this allows samus to more easily combo into some of those stronger moves if timed right. It ultimatly gives her the kill options you all complain about without increasing knockback

2. It would fix any remaining problems Toon Link being floaty for the system. Toon Link doesn't need this as much as the other character but his benefit from it would be limited as his zair isn't as good as Links/Samus.

3. It finally gives Link the improve approach combo's he deserves and lacks. Right now he relies on defense/spacing approach to start combo's. He still lacks any true offense due to his speed and this would help.

Wouldn't that be overpowered seeing that Zair's autocancel when you land?

 

[Greenpoe]

Does anyone have a premade codeset they would like to share with me? I'm so behind.

Check the Brawlplussery thread, there's a good codeset on there.

 

[Swordplay]

Cape is wrong. It is EXTREMLY easy to get around zair. Rising zairs are 100% ineffective so there is still the opportunity to punish.

some characters don't even need to approach zair. They have superior spams and can just rack up damage forcing them to stop.

Some characters are unfazed by zair. DK uses up b super armor to go right though it and throw out death combo's on the slow characters. Bowser can do something similar. Other characters are short enough to the point where timing zair is inefficient. These characters can still get past it because rising zair is bad. A simple shield and you are already inside performing ****.

Only characters moderatly affected are those slow and big ones. Ike D3 Snake Ganon and all of then (except for ganon) have moves with decent range. Bigger and faster characters like marth still has the ability to approach at angles that **** these characters.


It's not like metaknight has zair. Many people complained about Samus lack of kill moves but kill moves don't need to be improved if you can rack damage slightly better.

Many people complained that Links up (his sig move) has to much risk and not enough reward for a kill move (1 of 2 good ones). This would help give it some use by comboing into it. (dair is the other kill move and you had no problem fixing it)

Earlier on, many people said TL was floaty for the system, this may benifit him and it doesn't even help him that much.

To go further, when you do a rising zair, the hit boxes disappear before you can even FF it at the height of SH. And the hitboxes come out at useless times if you do it this way, its not even close to being broken. Especially since they were put on sub par characters.

I do play with zair cape but if you can't get around zair then I question your ability and skill as a player. It is really not that hard. Pretty easy IMO....If you don't want do this, then you have to look at the moves I said. But I feel this solves the problem which is why I suggest it. It was a new and fresh idea. Besides, if you really don't like it you can always take it out. Thats the glory of B+

I see what you're saying about the hard counters bit, but my question for you is:

"If the majority of people (especially BRs) can acknowledge the fact that a character, metagame matchups etc. included, isn't quite on the same level (but is... playable) why would there be any reason to leave it that way?"

I agree, why leave minor character imbalances if you have the power to fix it.

 

[Almas]

I would do an empty rise on the SH with the threat of a missile/arrow. At the falling point you do a retreating Zair, then FF once the hitbox is fully out. If they attempt to power armour through it, you space further back thanks to the retreat, and can punish them out of the Up+B with a grab.

 

[Eaode]

I think FFing Zair is only fair. I mean, we should at least try it out if we're going to fastfall specials as well. Why would Falco get to Fastfall his lasers which autocancel and have stun and are a long-ranged projectile, but Link/Samus/TL wouldn't get to FF their zairs? It would add of interest and strategy to these characters to make their Zairs more reliable, instead of using rising Zairs (which as pointed out are stupid), or having to wait your whole SH to do a zair, which is very easily anticipated.

If it's too much for these characters, we'll take it out. but if you're gonna do FF specials, I say allow us to FF zairs as well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I see what you're saying about the hard counters bit, but my question for you is:

"If the majority of people (especially BRs) can acknowledge the fact that a character, metagame matchups etc. included, isn't quite on the same level (but is... playable) why would there be any reason to leave it that way?"

Because then we would never be done balancing the bottom tier characters. And every buff we make to a bottom tier character will in turn nerf other characters (specifically the characters who have trouble dealing with them after this buff).

The existence of bottom tier characters is inevitable. We will likely even universally agree that some portion of the cast is not as good as the rest. But that alone is not sufficient evidence to warrant buffing them, as that is a condition that will apply no matter how well we balance the game (since perfect balance is impossible).

Thus the criteria needs to be more strict to avoid the slippery slope effect, which is why we say that the character must be significantly worse to warrant a buff. "Significantly" is still subjective yes, but if we can simply assign a quantifiable definition to it, then it could easily serve as our buff criteria.

I agree, why leave minor character imbalances if you have the power to fix it.

Because minor character imbalances will be present no matter how many we fix, and continuous patching has negative effects on the development of character metagames. We should only be fixing extreme imbalances after we get out a "standard" codeset, lest we divide the community among different codesets because of our subjective character balance changes.

 

[kupo15]

Cape is wrong. It is EXTREMLY easy to get around zair. Rising zairs are 100% ineffective so there is still the opportunity to punish.

So you want to make them unpunishable? Rise up zair, FF Auto cancel...repeat

some characters don't even need to approach zair. They have superior spams and can just rack up damage forcing them to stop.

You can't kill with projectiles alone. If you are the idiot spamming Zairs while they are camping, that's your fault. Use your shield more and know when to use your Zair.

Some characters are unfazed by zair. DK uses up b super armor to go right though it and throw out death combo's on the slow characters. Bowser can do something similar. Other characters are short enough to the point where timing zair is inefficient. These characters can still get past it because rising zair is bad. A simple shield and you are already inside performing ****.

Once again, you want zairs to be unpunishable?

Earlier on, many people said TL was floaty for the system, this may benifit him and it doesn't even help him that much.

Toon link is already really good yet you want to buff him more? Floatiness is his style

I do play with zair cape but if you can't get around zair then I question your ability and skill as a player. It is really not that hard. Pretty easy IMO....If you don't want do this, then you have to look at the moves I said. But I feel this solves the problem which is why I suggest it. It was a new and fresh idea

Maybe you need to learn how use Zair better? It ACs and samsu's has a huge range and its fast. You can also do retreating zairs.

 

[Swordplay]

I know how to use zair.....I know its strengths and weaknesses better than you kupo. But your argument is better than cape so I'll leave it alone. (no matter how much i disagree)

If you don't want to do this, you need to give samus the kill move she deserves and fix the abysmal risk reward of spin attack.

 

[Iamthemovie]

I know how to use zair.....I know its strengths and weaknesses better than you kupo. But your argument is better than cape so I'll leave it alone. (no matter how much i disagree)

If you don't want to do this, you need to give samus the kill move she deserves and fix the abysmal risk reward of spin attack.

I think zair is fine as it is. If anything needs to be buffed, it's her Charge Beam (and maybe her Fsmash too).
Fix the screw attack? I think it's good enough even in vB. Use with a platform above you, that's how most Samus players have always used her UpB to minimize the risk.

 

[Eaode]

Link's spin attack, not Samus's screw attack

 

[Finns7]

I think things are fine as is, BUT i would wanna test it still, maybe it could workout (zair thing)

Samus's charge shot, but her fsmash is fine, if you connect at 80 then just edgeguard them which she can do VERY well. I say buff her nair, some say its a combo move but it really isnt.

Links spin attack is risk reward. It has so much lag at the end of it that you basically lose a stock if they shield it. If you connect with it its not gonna kill like it should, when you think falcon you think knee/punch (<sacred). When you think of link finishers he only has dair, his other moves depend on your edguarding game. I think Link is a good char already, but part of that is because most people dont kno him. Most prob have never played a great link in VB, so when they do they dont kno how to DI properly out his moves.

It will not break him, but rather complete him, I was playin cooler in a 2v2 and he upbed my ganon and i didnt die at like 130 lol, maybe he didnt hit me on the right spot. Charging up his upb isnt viable either with jab locks out, that concept was stupid and has Vbrawl party game all over it. I just think it needs kb buff.

 

[kupo15]

I know how to use zair.....I know its strengths and weaknesses better than you kupo. But your argument is better than cape so I'll leave it alone. (no matter how much i disagree)

If you don't want to do this, you need to give samus the kill move she deserves and fix the abysmal risk reward of spin attack.

we have plans for her KO problem but Zair is not the way to solve that IMO

 

[The Cape]

I know how to use zair.....I know its strengths and weaknesses better than you kupo. But your argument is better than cape so I'll leave it alone. (no matter how much i disagree)

If you don't want to do this, you need to give samus the kill move she deserves and fix the abysmal risk reward of spin attack.

Firstly, we dont NEED to do anything.
Secondly, I still think your playstyle is the problem and not the character as I have stated before. You yourself claim to camp alot, which really does not work well for Link. If you want to camp play Falco or Samus and shoot projectiles all day.

I love how you waltz in here and tell me flat out that I am wrong when you have no evidence to back your claims. Sure, I may not have presented concrete evidence either but that does not make me inherently wrong, it gives me a different opinion than yours. I have seen my share of good players abuse zair as an excellent spacing tool with all three characters you have mentioned and it makes it extrodinarily hard to approach.

Instead of buffing something that does not need it, why dont you just buff your ability to play well?

 

[Dark Sonic]

What value does everyone have the momentum code set at (V3)?

 

[kupo15]

the default 1

 

[Swordplay]

Don't blame me for your shortcomings cape, your claim is only as good as your evidence and I'll admit my evidence was also sub par. Kupo had way better evidence than you and me so he changed my opinion. Next time make a better argument.

You should all listen to finnz. He's the most intelligent person in this room right now and his argument is better too.

 

[The Cape]

Swordplay, he and I are chatting on IRC right now, and he basically agrees with all my points.

Link is a beast, needs no changes, and FF zair doesnt even really do anything.

 

[Swordplay]

See but now your changing the subject, I'm not arguing FF zair anymore, Kupo changed my mind.

Look at Finnz argument. I think it is a much better solution than what I posed

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6762250&postcount=8141

 

[shanus]

We already talked about buffing links up+b. We decided against it until seeing how his current playstyle prevailed in the tournament scene given both his up+B boost & 35% ALR & proper physics. If he really does play crappy then we'll buff it.

 

[PanzerOceania]

yeah, there is no need to change things so fast. We have to get used to it. It takes time to see how things play out once players adjust to the differences.

 

[kupo15]

I added a new code to the list, "turn handicap scale into a buffer scale"

 

[CyberGlitch]

Fast fall Z-airs, as well as fast fall specials, really aren't needed. B+ plays quite well as it is. We are running into a code line crunch and teching is a MUCH more important thing to devote those lines to.

I would prioritize specials over Z-airs. Allowing this would help many characters, and speed up overall gameplay. This includes the Links (at least, it should include them).

Z-airs weren't designed to be a solid approach option. They have very situational but often effective application. The risk vs reward for them is currently very balanced. I'm not saying characters aren't played beyond their original design, but we shouldn't go out of our way to do make such specific options available.

Instead of a Z-air buff, these characters instead need slightly less cooldown on their missed grabs.


On another note, the lagless ledges code works by speeding up animations related to the ledges, right? Why can't these modifications be done through the frame mod code to save code lines?

 

[Shell]

kupo, is that a code you're requesting, or is it released? I don't see it anywhere.

 

[Wavedash Master]

kupo, is that a code you're requesting, or is it released? I don't see it anywhere.

It's in the future codes section, so I'm guessing he's requesting it.

 

[leafgreen386]

On another note, the lagless ledges code works by speeding up animations related to the ledges, right? Why can't these modifications be done through the frame mod code to save code lines?

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there is no mention of a "lagless ledges" code in the plussery set. This was already done some time ago.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Ah, I suspected as much. Thanks for the clarification.

And the buffer scale is a request.

A more effective request, IMO, might be a buffer length mode when you hold L when selecting someone, allowing for player specific buffers based on playstyle.

A similar request would be an an option in the settings to reduce hitstun to a set value for 3-4 player matches.

 

[Shell]

The handicap to buffer code would be very easy to change to a specific value before any match on a player-by-player and character-by-character basis. I can't think of anything better.

 

[kupo15]

A more effective request, IMO, might be a buffer length mode when you hold L when selecting someone, allowing for player specific buffers based on playstyle.
.

That is the code I want made. The change the handicap scale handle buffering instead of handicap.

 

[CyberGlitch]

*CyberGlitch has a mind meld going on with Kupo*

Think of it as the sensitivity setting in FPSers. Higher sensitivity generally leads to better reaction rates and play in capable hands, but low sensitivity appeals to many others.

 

[PanzerOceania]

sounds like a great idea, it makes sense because it is really a preference thing and doesn't necessarily give any advantage.