COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Yeroc]

I know ph00t probably does. I'll do some searching for you.

Edit: Without advocating too much of a buff, dsmash already has like 0 ending lag, but maybe the tiniest overall speed increase might be feasible? The move's hardly usable without tons of practice at working it into one's game...

Edit again: Paralyzer:

In vanilla Brawl, the first hitbox comes out on frame 21, and you have 19 frames of cool-down.

 

[shanus]

I know ph00t probably does. I'll do some searching for you.

Edit: Without advocating too much of a buff, dsmash already has like 0 ending lag, but maybe the tiniest overall speed increase might be feasible? The move's hardly usable without tons of practice at working it into one's game...

Also possible, just PM me the frame data if you find it. I'd rather not have to increase everyones hitlag for one character, so if this can do the trick itd be nice haha

 

[Yeroc]

^^^^ I found it.

 

[kupo15]

What I am interested in is whether or not we plan to make the momentum code act like it did in Melee (you gradually lost momentum until you reached your normal "max" speed), or like it does now, minus the walk-off ledges (you just keep going indefinitely). I wanna know if spunit managed to do that with the version of the code that fixes the ledges.

Maybe. I think the best action would be to look into how jump force works and mirror that with the momentum code. Jumps apply a one time force and they apply it at the right time and shut off at the right time and that is how the momentum needs to work. I've never jumped when I ran off stages xD

 

[Alopex]

So I'm thinking that there's GOT to be a way to fix the No ASL code.

FD's ledges are the most ******** ledges in the game. The sweetspot are is actually BELOW what actually look like the edge and if Diddy, Ness, and Lucas aim for it, they'll just bounce off and die. They have to aim pretty much at the point where the ledge starts to curve inward in order to sweetspot. That's ridiculous because to any eye that spot looks like a certain death spot to aim for.

So yeah, No ASL code + Messed up ledge = WTF.


Also, kupo, do you know if anyone is working on a DJ height modifier like we have for SH's and FH's? The DJ Action ID also exists, so it should be possible to make a DJ height modifier code.
That code is pretty essential if we want to completely remove the need for UpGrav mods (thus being able to affect character properties without affecting character knockback).

 

[GPDP]

I am against removing upgrav. It helps speed up jumps, and makes the game feel a lot more consistent. Like I said before, I hated how before the character specific codes, your jump on the way up felt floaty, and on the way down it felt fast due to downgrav.

Let's instead find the value for weight, and adjust that.

Plus, wasn't downgrav what ultimately affected knockback, not upgrav?

 

[Almas]

In memory, there is one variable which is referenced when the character performs either a fullhop or a double jump. The region of code which determines how high jumps go references only one variable for a fullhop or double jump, and it is this one.

It is possible that there is a second region of code which determines second jump height, but I don't see why that would be true.

 

[GPDP]

So, would we be able to alter weight, Almas? I do think the knockback problem is a bit disconcerting, but I don't wanna get rid of the speedy jumps.

 

[kupo15]

I am against removing upgrav. It helps speed up jumps, and makes the game feel a lot more consistent. Like I said before, I hated how before the character specific codes, your jump on the way up felt floaty, and on the way down it felt fast due to downgrav.

Let's instead find the value for weight, and adjust that.

Plus, wasn't downgrav what ultimately affected knockback, not upgrav?

If I am correct with this, we can make jumps get to their apex faster. For example:

Vbrawl:

FH: 1
Ugrav: 1
Dgrav: 1

Faster jumping
FH: 2
Ugrav: 0.5
Dgrav: 1.1

The down grav is for flow purposes. I believe this will get you to the apex twice as fast while retaining the vbrawl height.


Also now that I think about it for the momentum, instead of copy pasting the way the game handles jumping and replacing the jump force with the momentum, maybe a better way is to take the momentum force and just add that right next to the jump force line this way the game reads the jump force and the momentum at the same time. That should resolve the walk offs and apply both forces correctly. Just a thought

 

[shanus]

If I am correct with this, we can make jumps get to their apex faster. For example:

Vbrawl:

FH: 1
Ugrav: 1
Dgrav: 1

Faster jumping
FH: 2
Ugrav: 0.5
Dgrav: 1.1

The down grav is for flow purposes. I believe this will get you to the apex twice as fast while retaining the vbrawl height.


Also now that I think about it for the momentum, instead of copy pasting the way the game handles jumping and replacing the jump force with the momentum, maybe a better way is to take the momentum force and just add that right next to the jump force line this way the game reads the jump force and the momentum at the same time. That should resolve the walk offs and apply both forces correctly. Just a thought

Full hop is not directly proportional to upgrav modifier. it should be taken as half the value as a general rule of thumb. You'd also make characters die so fast with that value lol

 

[GPDP]

Uh, kupo, a lower upgrav value means less upward gravity, not more. You'd make jumps like, 4 times their usual height that way, and they'd be ultra floaty.

I think what you're trying to get at is

FH: 1.25
Ugrav: 1.5

per shanus's observations.

 

[Eaode]

if trajectory is what people don't like about upgravity, there should be an easy way to fix it. You know how they can modify gravity when you're performing a specific action, right (like up-bs and such)? well, couldn't you just normalize upwards gravity when a character is in hitstun? that would fix any effect that grav mods have on trajectories, but still keep them where they are needed- more natural jumps.

 

[shanus]

Uh, kupo, a lower upgrav value means less upward gravity, not more. You'd make jumps like, 4 times their usual height that way, and they'd be ultra floaty.

I think what you're trying to get at is

FH: 1.25
Ugrav: 1.5

per shanus's observations.

Ya your correct. Its a weird mechanic. Higher upgrav shortens jump height, but raises jump speed.


Also, Alopex performed extensive testing on character kill %s. Currently the chart is actually almost perfect. There are only 2 chars who arent in the right position (arguably), samus & wolf. We've talked about upgrav to death, it seems fine with what its actually doing lol.

 

[Shell]

So I tested out the new momentum code -- jump momentum really is based on dash speed now, yay! Here's ma findings:

-As mentioned, if you dash, then stop, your next jump will have momentum in a certain direction.

-If you don't have any previous momentum "stored" and you jump without pressing any buttons, you will still move, usually to the right. Very annoying.

-Run off momentum does, in fact, still exist. I'd like to see it go, or at least be reduced by X %.

-I couldn't tell with ROB's side B since I never play him, but Ganon and Falcon's side B's still had their crazy momentum. Not necessarily a bad thing.

-If you dash and then turn around in the slow turnaround animation and jump you'll have full momentum, even though your character wasn't moving. Not too big a deal.

 

[kupo15]

Full hop is not directly proportional to upgrav modifier. it should be taken as half the value as a general rule of thumb. You'd also make characters die so fast with that value lol

Uh, kupo, a lower upgrav value means less upward gravity, not more. You'd make jumps like, 4 times their usual height that way, and they'd be ultra floaty.

I think what you're trying to get at is

FH: 1.25
Ugrav: 1.5

per shanus's observations.

Oh ****. That is what I meant

Ya your correct. Its a weird mechanic. Higher upgrav shortens jump height, but raises jump speed.

Actually, I think its the jump height. The bigger the jump height, the more the force, the faster you jump and the up grav is there to keep your jump height the same. I wonder if we should tamper with this. Someone said they wanted stronger jumps but I don't know who and it couldn't hurt to experiment with.

 

[Shell]

Couple more points on the momentum code:

-Sonic is completely insane. I might take the code down to 70%.

-Still have the problem of sliding after SH arials. I'd use the friction code but I'm all out of lines using beta 3

 

[kupo15]

Couple more points on the momentum code:

-Sonic is completely insane. I might take the code down to 70%.

-Still have the problem of sliding after SH arials. I'd use the friction code but I'm all out of lines using beta 3

Your forgetting something. Several times when I jumped from a stand still, the first hop I went forward, then the rest of the hops I went backward lol

Based on what spunit said and my thoughts, Im sure its all completely fixable. I "think" I have the right idea of how to make it work

 

[Shell]

No, I covered that.

The first hop is the momentum you retained from a previous dash. The second hop is just the strange momentum that's applied to any jump (even without any direction inputed) and is usually to the right.

If you dashed to the left, stopped, and then jumped, you would jump forward (left), and the rest would take you backwards (right) because of the weird constant momentum to the right.

 

[kupo15]

oohhhhhh gotcha

 

[Revven]

Well, all in all, I hope momentum gets fixed and that we can all have wonderful combos from it.

 

[Dan_X]

It's good to hear that there has been progress with momentum! So all of the characters are affected by the momentum like they should? I hear Sonic works now, that's great!

 

[kupo15]

Well, all in all, I hope momentum gets fixed and that we can all have wonderful combos from it.

Yea me too. Hopeful it can be fixed within 4 hours for gamers club tonight

If not no worries

 

[cobaltblue]

Hey kupo gonna update the first few posts so that links to your set, mookie, and muba works?

 

[Revven]

Hey kupo gonna update the first few posts so that links to your set, mookie, and muba works?

Apparently kupo or The Cape never informed anyone, guess I'll do it.

On the vent server, kupo and The Cape decided that it'd be best to scrap the other code sets and just focus on one main one (in this case, the BrawlPlusery set) simply because too many code sets causes splits in the B+ community. We've already split ourselves a bit with the MAD/HAD/BAD debate (see people on youtube using MAD/HAD for their B+, of course, that's fine). It is best to focus on something we all can agree on rather than code sets that are just a tip of the iceberg and cause conflicts.

 

[kupo15]

I still have it but yea, it would be better if they don't get in the way I think

 

[GPDP]

Actually, I think its the jump height. The bigger the jump height, the more the force, the faster you jump and the up grav is there to keep your jump height the same. I wonder if we should tamper with this. Someone said they wanted stronger jumps but I don't know who and it couldn't hurt to experiment with.

I think you're referring to me. I've been advocating this sort of thing since I joined. And we finally got it in the form of the Brawlplusery codeset. I think we could still stand to make jumps "stronger" still for some characters, but I'm not sure. I'll leave that for testing. And of course, we need to increase some characters' weights. Perhaps we could use that last unused variable in the character values code for that?

As for the excessive sliding that results from the momentum code, if indeed spunit's edge walk-off "fix" works like I think it does (the extra momentum is cut off on the downswing), then that may be the fix we're looking for. The sliding results from falling diagonally at such fast speed, kinda like what MAD does. If the momentum goes back to normal before landing, however, this slide may be eliminated.

I still think we need more friction, though. Characters slide like crazy on slopes.

 

[matt4300]

Ah, I was about to coment on the momentum code makeing me jump to the right, but it seems thats already been taken care of ^_^. (I thought it was becuase I had a crappy controller) So instead I will say this...

YES!!! another code that helps fast chars immensely, and gives everyone eles the shaft XD sigh, I guess I will have to give in as start maining fox >_>' he seems to get all the cool stuff.

Thanks coders and brawl+ br-ers alike ^_^ it really is amazing how far this has come.

 

[kupo15]

but that would be weird if you have all this momentum then it stops and is crappy like before. It would be like hitstun where you fly off then suddenly stop. I'm pretty sure if he codes it to work like the jumps code then all problems besides the sliding will be solved

YES!!! another code that helps fast chars immensely, and gives everyone eles the shaft XD sigh, I guess I will have to give in as start maining fox >_>' he seems to get all the cool stuff.
.

You really need to stop complaining and talking nonsense in the same post!

 

[matt4300]

but that would be weird if you have all this momentum then it stops and is crappy like before. It would be like hitstun where you fly off then suddenly stop. I'm pretty sure if he codes it to work like the jumps code then all problems besides the sliding will be solved



You really need to stop complaining and talking nonsense in the same post!

I actually wasne't complaining... I seconded fox in melee I just haven't liked him in brawl yet until + :/ and how was I talking nonsense? I'm sure you all know that the new momenum code makes you jump slightly forward... right? I'm not the only one getting this am I?

EDIT: Kupo I didne't say it doesnt help the slower chars it does but not nearly as much as the faster ones. It just makes since that the faster chars go further when the run jump. This code makes my fox much more fun.. but does little for my link, ness and bowser. Which kinda sucks because I like playing them more.

Your forgetting something. Several times when I jumped from a stand still, the first hop I went forward, then the rest of the hops I went backward lol

Based on what spunit said and my thoughts, Im sure its all completely fixable. I "think" I have the right idea of how to make it work <<<<< yes I talking about this. Seeing as how you already said it I didnet think it was nessesary to explain it to ya.

 

[kupo15]

Another code that helps the faster characters out? As in, it makes the gab between the faster and slower chars wider? As in it doesn't help the slower characters out at all? Please.

I have no clue what you mean "jump slightly forward." I hope your not talking about the bugs in the code are clear as day.

 

[GPDP]

but that would be weird if you have all this momentum then it stops and is crappy like before. It would be like hitstun where you fly off then suddenly stop. I'm pretty sure if he codes it to work like the jumps code then all problems besides the sliding will be solved

Wasn't that how it was in Melee, though? Falcon could leap in the air, and gain good distance, but once he started falling, he would lose momentum gradually until it was the same momentum as a normal jump. The current code does not do this. Falcon leaps forward, gets good distance... and keeps getting good distance indefinitely, until he lands and slides because of all that extra momentum transferring to the ground. I think this is rather sloppy, and would much rather it work closer to Melee. Not only would it control the distance you travel, but it would likely get rid of the sliding.

And that's why I wish spunit had let us test the "fix" he came up with. If that is how it works, then I would say we'd have a good code.

 

[kupo15]

Wasn't that how it was in Melee, though? Falcon could leap in the air, and gain good distance, but once he started falling, he would lose momentum gradually until it was the same momentum as a normal jump. The current code does not do this. Falcon leaps forward, gets good distance... and keeps getting good distance indefinitely, until he lands and slides because of all that extra momentum transferring to the ground. I think this is rather sloppy, and would much rather it work closer to Melee. Not only would it control the distance you travel, but it would likely get rid of the sliding.

And that's why I wish spunit had let us test the "fix" he came up with. If that is how it works, then I would say we'd have a good code.

Im not sure actually

 

[cAm8ooo]

OK. So tell me if im gettin this right or not. Air momentum is suppose to transfer over from your dash speed. So faster characters get the biggest boost but if you look at say kirby and bowser. Bowser seems to get a bigger boost. That's because everyone's air resistance is calculated as well and kirby has more resistance then bowser and therefore slows him down more? Correct, or is air resistance not even something real? I recall hearing something about it.

 

[Revven]

OH! I just remembered.

SFG and I determined that the dumbest mechanic that should be removed is that dumb super footstool jump you get some times when you jump on someone and their head doesn't bounce. I'm almost convinced it's a glitch even because the animation doesn't even happen and the opponent jumps super high. It ruins combos, it CAN interrupt your approach, and worst of all it just screws up both opponents.

You shouldn't be rewarded for mashing jump at all mid-combo or even just in general. It's such a dumb thing to happen. I'm not saying to get rid of the REGULAR footstools, just THIS one, it's useless and just rewards the player who jumped depending on the situation.

 

[GPDP]

OH! I just remembered.

SFG and I determined that the dumbest mechanic that should be removed is that dumb super footstool jump you get some times when you jump on someone and their head doesn't bounce. I'm almost convinced it's a glitch even because the animation doesn't even happen and the opponent jumps super high. It ruins combos, it CAN interrupt your approach, and worst of all it just screws up both opponents.

You shouldn't be rewarded for mashing jump at all mid-combo or even just in general. It's such a dumb thing to happen. I'm not saying to get rid of the REGULAR footstools, just THIS one, it's useless and just rewards the player who jumped depending on the situation.

Oh god, this. Seriously. I have a hard time spiking off the stage with characters like Falco sometimes, because what I try to do is jump off, then simultaneously jump and dair, but instead of spiking the opponent, I super footstool jump way above the opponent, and nothing happens.

 

[zxeon]

OH! I just remembered.

SFG and I determined that the dumbest mechanic that should be removed is that dumb super footstool jump you get some times when you jump on someone and their head doesn't bounce. I'm almost convinced it's a glitch even because the animation doesn't even happen and the opponent jumps super high. It ruins combos, it CAN interrupt your approach, and worst of all it just screws up both opponents.

You shouldn't be rewarded for mashing jump at all mid-combo or even just in general. It's such a dumb thing to happen. I'm not saying to get rid of the REGULAR footstools, just THIS one, it's useless and just rewards the player who jumped depending on the situation.

I don't see what's so bad about it. It hardly ever happens to me. Don't let the opponent jump on you hit them every time they come near.

 

[Finns7]

I agree, remove them all together or lower the frame if possible ( I dont think it is)

 

[Revven]

I don't see what's so bad about it. It hardly ever happens to me. Don't let the opponent jump on you hit them every time they come near.

zxeon, just because it doesn't happen to you or anyone else doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of it. If there's a chance of it happening, the slightest chance, it should be gone. Period. JUST like tripping is gone. It's got a 1% chance of happening every match yet, it doesn't happen often, did we get rid of it? Yes. It of course is uncontrollable to us, which is in the same way as the super footstool is. You NEVER want to use it, and you NEVER intend to either.

The point is, it's useless and ruins combos or anything in general. Let's just get rid of it because guess what? It serves no purpose unlike footstooling which DOES serve a decent amount of purpose and CAN be used effectively if put into good practice. This? It doesn't do anything good for either opponent other than JUST being there and distorting the match, ruining the pace etc. etc.

Would you want something as random as that to happen when a pro is suddenly about to get a 8 hit combo and all of the sudden, the attackee jumps on the person and gets out of the combo because of the super footstool jump? While it doesn't send the attacker down, it sends the attackee up, to a point where the attacker cannot continue the combo and thus, it goes unfinished and the crowd is pissed.

I, personally, do not want that to happen (even if it is JUST an example, it is a very real possibility).

 

[SketchHurricane]

I don't see what's so bad about it. It hardly ever happens to me. Don't let the opponent jump on you hit them every time they come near.

That crap happens to me quite a bit. Totally ghey. I'm all for removing it, but it might end up being tied to the regular footstool. Maybe make it so that footstools only occur on opponents in the helpless/stun state (in other words, never while they are in control).

 

[Sanu]

Im not sure actually

Just to let you know, he's correct on the jump momentum decreasing over time.