COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sonic's jumps would cancel out a bit of his momentum in the old Sonic games, so it's perfectly reasonable that they will in Brawl+

Sonic has slightly faster dash speed, Falcon gets a bit more momentum from his dash jumps. Fair trade off, I think.

Sonic should still get a large chunk of his dash speed put into his momentum though. Not giving him any momentum at all would be pretty lame. >_>

 

[goodoldganon]

Seems reasonable DS, and yes I agree Sonic is (sadly) the better of the two

I try not to get too involved in momentum codes in case the code doesn't end up working out (too many lines, etc etc.)

EDIT: Remember I said combo ON. Fast fallers are cake to combo and juggle. That spring and Sonic's slower fall speed are clutch for getting out of combos.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's jumps would cancel out a bit of his momentum in the old Sonic games, so it's perfectly reasonable that they will in Brawl+

You sir are mistaken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtDl-0B5U-g
Sonic's max air speed was the same as his full run speed in the Sonic games. It was only when he was moving past his full run speed that he decelerated.

Sonic has slightly faster dash speed, Falcon gets a bit more momentum from his dash jumps. Fair trade off, I think.

This isn't about trade offs. One character is getting full dash momentum in his jumps, while the other is not. That is simply unfair. That is discriminating against Sonic simply because he is a better character than Falcon and receives more benefits from a universal momentum code.

Falcon gets more out of the dash momentum code than Jigglypuff! We should take off some of his dash momentum to make it fair! That's not arbitrary at all right?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I personally think Falcon is a better character than Sonic, and as a Sonic main I'd love to see some good uair poking.

Also, short hop spindashes.

 

[Kix]

Is this going to work? http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/Wiicm

Or have people already discussed this?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Running uairs would indeed be awesome. As would running SD/ASCs.

 

[cAm8ooo]

You sir are mistaken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtDl-0B5U-g
Sonic's max air speed was the same as his full run speed in the Sonic games. It was only when he was moving past his full run speed that he decelerated.

This isn't about trade offs. One character is getting full dash momentum in his jumps, while the other is not. That is simply unfair. That is discriminating against Sonic simply because he is a better character than Falcon and receives more benefits from a universal momentum code.

Falcon gets more out of the dash momentum code than Jigglypuff! We should take off some of his dash momentum to make it fair! That's not arbitrary at all right?

First. Why r we arguing what happens in his games. This is just stupid and irrelevant.

Second. You cant compete with DS's logic.

 

[Shadic]

Is this going to work? http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/Wiicm

Or have people already discussed this?

All that does is make .gct files?

 

[goodoldganon]

What about furthering the distction between the two. Falcon is more reckless and that shows from his momentum jump and traction when he lands. Sonic has the control.

Either way, as much as I want Falcon to be the only character to hop across Final D, Sonic really should be able to as well.

 

[Kix]

All that does is make .gct files?

"version 1.1: Max Cheats is now 500. SSBB compatible. Fixed file selector bug. Compiled with libogc 1.7.0 adds SDHC support. Fixed sound effects and changed to asndlib. Added libfreetype for logo."

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You sir are mistaken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtDl-0B5U-g
Sonic's max air speed was the same as his full run speed in the Sonic games. It was only when he was moving past his full run speed that he decelerated.
This isn't about trade offs. One character is getting full dash momentum in his jumps, while the other is not. That is simply unfair. That is discriminating against Sonic simply because he is a better character than Falcon and receives more benefits from a universal momentum code.

Falcon gets more out of the dash momentum code than Jigglypuff! We should take off some of his dash momentum to make it fair! That's not arbitrary at all right?

Mistaken indeed. My bad.

I still think it isn't even remotely unfair that Sonic would have less momentum, but it appears I'm the minority here.
Yay for Sonic. >_>

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think air momentum leaves a lot more room for improvisation in general with combos and things, so its not a question of whats unfair about Sonic having it. Its almost essential to making combos feel less awkward.

I really never found much use in spindash for the very reasoning all it could do was combo into one aerial at most and dashing was almost always a much better approach. I mostly use it for mindgames. Thats why I wanted to keep air momentum on it to make it feel less like filler in Sonic's pattern.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I just dont think we should be bias. About anything. If it doesnt work right with someone, well we fix it. No questions asked.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yeah one of my fears in Brawl+ is that we start nerfing based on players and not really thinking things through. I mean what happens when we get a tourney scene and a player keeps dominating with one character, would we really be so quick to nerf it just because that player happens to be smart?

Also, I'm biased because I think Sonic needs a buff'n.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, I think the rule of thumb would be to look at how many players are able to duplicate that kind of success with the character.

If that character is consistently taking 3 or 4 spots in the top 5 at pretty much every tournament (and winning lol)...then something's up.

 

[thesage]

After a year I think we should cut off nerfs and buffs. If ssb4 sucks and we can't hack it, then maybe we can switch up brawl a lot. That' IMO though.

 

[Alopex]

If almost everyone weren't so completely head-over-heels for Falcon that they creamed their pants every time his name got mentioned, I wouldn't be half as annoyed by the character.

Why do people need to make him the top priority with every code that comes out? Forget about him for a second and focus on what the other characters need regardless of how Captain Falcon feels about it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I think if an MK situation pops up, then we should probably do something about it. Meaning if the SBR actually has to consider banning them, not if everybody starts whining. >_>

I don't see that as too likely of happening though. Most of the kinks that are that major should be worked out by then.

 

[goodoldganon]

If almost every weren't so completely head-over-heels for Falcon that they creamed their pants every time his name got mentioned, I wouldn't be half as annoyed by the character.

Why do people need to make him the top priority with every code that comes out? Forget about him for a second and focus on what the other characters need regardless of how Captain Falcon feels about it.

He's the Smash poster child in my eyes. The Wolverine of the Smash Universe.

 

[GHNeko]

If almost every weren't so completely head-over-heels for Falcon that they creamed their pants every time his name got mentioned, I wouldn't be half as annoyed by the character.

Why do people need to make him the top priority with every code that comes out? Forget about him for a second and focus on what the other characters need regardless of how Captain Falcon feels about it.

I hope you're wearing a flame suit because talking ill of captain falcon will get you hung in these here parts. He's an idol of smash and you know everyone would be his *****.

;D

 

[cAm8ooo]

@ alopex-Agreed. It seems like everything we do is just to help Falcon. And if someone else gets something good then they want to take it away. For instance, why r we comparing Sonic with Falcon to see if Sonic needs to get full momentum from his dash? If everyone else is getting it i think he should too. To say, oh well that would make him better then Falcon is ********. We dont need to have ANY bias when making these codes and we dont attempt to nerf someone by comparing them to just falcon instead of the entire cast.

 

[goodoldganon]

@ alopex-Agreed. It seems like everything we do is just to help Falcon. And if someone else gets something good then they want to take it away. For instance, why r we comparing Sonic with Falcon to see if Sonic needs to get full momentum from his dash? If everyone else is getting it i think he should too. To say, oh well that would make him better then Falcon is ********. We dont need to have ANY bias when making these codes and we dont attempt to nerf someone by comparing them to just falcon instead of the entire cast.

Sonic and Falcon are fast, lower priority, combo oriented, punishment characters. It's not like we are comparing D3 to Falcon here.

In my eyes, Sonic is fine without aerial momentum. He plays well with it, his combos work and they still work fluidly. He is still an excellent punisher. Capt Falcon on the other hand still has his same weaknesses, just slightly lessened by aerial momentum. I just thought it would be an interesting choice to differentiate the two characters.

EDIT: I don't know why I'm getting involved in this. We need to wait for the aerial momentum code to be 'fixed' anyway.

 

[shanus]

Alopex, if it makes you feel any better, our next beta looks at characters which still don't feel quite right yet:

Samus
Mario
Wolf
Sheik
Bowser
& more

No falcon!!

 

[cAm8ooo]

Are all characters suppose to get full momentum from their dash transferred over? Does everyone else besides sonic?

 

[goodoldganon]

Some characters certainly don't feel like it. Sheik and Sonic stick out to me in my mind, but I have no idea whats causing it really.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Well i think everyone should. That's why i say we shouldnt compare Sonic to Falcon. Cuz comparing him to anybody to determine whether he should get it or not is dumb. It should be universal for all and those it doesnt work for should be fixed (if possible)

 

[GPDP]

Yeah, it's a bit of a mystery as to what is it exactly that determines your jumping momentum. Even in Melee, it certainly was not based on dash speed, else Fox's jumps would also be covering distances not much smaller than Falcon's.

 

[goodoldganon]

Yeah, it's a bit of a mystery as to what is it exactly that determines your jumping momentum. Even in Melee, it certainly was not based on dash speed, else Fox's jumps would also be covering distances not much smaller than Falcon's.

This is an excellent point. I'll let Shanus decide if we can continue a jump momentum debate here or if we should do it else where. I still get this sneaking feeling we won't be able to change the running jumps on characters, just remove the special and ledge momentum.

 

[Alopex]

Well Shanus, you'll be happy to know that I got my Wiimotes back tonight, like promised, and I can't wait for the next Beta.

Did you guys are the back room ever get around to testing out the less-wind down Mario Dtilt line I posted a bit ago? Cape was saying he wanted that to give more balance to Mario. I'm actually quite curious about what you guys think of it.

Dtilt hits on frame 5 and ends on frame 34.
Utilt hits on 5 and ends on 29.
Ftilt hits on 5 and ends on 24.

Let's say you want to bring Dtilt to about an in between level, so let's say ending it on frame 26.

So we want to reduce the amount of frames after frame 5 to 21, but we want to keep the hitbox safe.

Ok, so we'll start the speed mod at frame 8 since the Dtilt hitbox is in no way out for 3 frames so its guaranteed to be unchanged. So we need to reduce the frames from 8-34 down to 8-21.

So bring 26 down to 13.

The line for that would be:

00080029 40000000

Plus the first Frame Mode line, of course. As always.

 

[Dan_X]

I personally feel that every character should reap the benefit of the momentum code. I do however think that they should differ in distance based off the fact that they move at different speeds anyway. For example, I would like the momentum code to work for Sonic, conversely I want it to work for DDD, Bower, and any other heavy. It should work for all characters.

EDIT: Sonic, based on his speed, would have a lot more momentum than a character like Bowser, and thus he'll travel further

 

[zxeon]

There is a reason DS is the sonic main mouth piece here and you aren't.

Honestly, anyone that plays sonic even moderately can see this code does no favors and if anything makes the down b more useless since it can no longer be used to combo into f-airs or up airs unless the enemy is already in the high damage bracket.

Cool down chief.

 

[GPDP]

This is an excellent point. I'll let Shanus decide if we can continue a jump momentum debate here or if we should do it else where. I still get this sneaking feeling we won't be able to change the running jumps on characters, just remove the special and ledge momentum.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced a solution that would actually capture running momentum properly would be rather roundabout, and would likely mean injecting some kind of foreign mechanic into the game. Judging from the fact that the current code is all of one measly line, that probably means all PW did was remove a flag that homogenizes your air speed regardless of whether you're dashing or not. Problem is, this flag also seems to apply to edges and certain specials.

So, I believe the most pressing task it to determine what is it about the way Falcon and others work that allows their dash jumps to be longer. Either it's something hardwired into their design that was later locked away through some kind of restriction, or there's something about their jumps that allows this to happen, and determines how much a character's jump will be affected. It's almost too coincidental, though, that Falcon works almost like he did in Melee, that's for sure.

 

[shanus]

I always thought momentum should be based proportionally off of the characters exit dash speed in some sort of logarithmic fashion so it didn't get too absurd. That way slower chars get some benefit, and faster chars would definitely see a larger benefit, but would cap off such that sonic wouldnt be absurdly larger than falcon/fox/etc where he would just explode off the screen when he jumps.

GD: The one line code does this. Normally it reads: You enter the air, set your initially velocity to zero. Now it reads this: You enter the air, Do nothing. So it takes whatever speed you were going out and uses that, sometimes lol

 

[Dan_X]

I always thought momentum should be based proportionally off of the characters exit dash speed in some sort of logarithmic fashion so it didn't get too absurd. That way slower chars get some benefit, and faster chars would definitely see a larger benefit, but would cap off such that sonic wouldnt be absurdly larger than falcon/fox/etc where he would just explode off the screen when he jumps.

I agree entirely. It'd be great if it worked like this. If any1 can manage to make the momentum code work like this it's definately PW. Hmm. I wonder if its possible.

 

[zxeon]

The whole point of the jump momentum is to make sure it works for every one. Cool down everyone Sonic will have momentum jumps too.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic and Falcon are fast, lower priority, combo oriented, punishment characters. It's not like we are comparing D3 to Falcon here.

In my eyes, Sonic is fine without aerial momentum. He plays well with it, his combos work and they still work fluidly. He is still an excellent punisher. Capt Falcon on the other hand still has his same weaknesses, just slightly lessened by aerial momentum. I just thought it would be an interesting choice to differentiate the two characters.

EDIT: I don't know why I'm getting involved in this. We need to wait for the aerial momentum code to be 'fixed' anyway.

I don't care about differentiation, I care about consistency. I don't care if the changes we make end up making Sonic and Falcon identical, so long as those changes are applied universally. I see no reason for Sonic to get shafted on dash momentum just to be "different" from Falcon.

@Shanus-bingo.

@GDP-actually, they traveled at relatively close horizontal speeds. It's just that Fox had a higher fall speed acceleration, so he "fell faster" than Falcon and thus reached the ground sooner.

 

[GPDP]

I always thought momentum should be based proportionally off of the characters exit dash speed in some sort of logarithmic fashion so it didn't get too absurd. That way slower chars get some benefit, and faster chars would definitely see a larger benefit, but would cap off such that sonic wouldnt be absurdly larger than falcon/fox/etc where he would just explode off the screen when he jumps.

GD: The one line code does this. Normally it reads: You enter the air, set your initially velocity to zero. Now it reads this: You enter the air, Do nothing. So it takes whatever speed you were going out and uses that, sometimes lol

See, I'm not so sure. I already mentioned that the code most likely took out a flag that restricts your air speed, but I don't think the flag actually sets your initial speed to zero. The fact that there are inconsistencies once the flag is removed proves this. You can't just brush it away by saying it "sometimes" works. If it's not working universally, then chances are that's not how it actually works.

 

[goodoldganon]

The whole point of the jump momentum is to make sure it works for every one. Cool down everyone Sonic will have momentum jumps too.

My question is (and it's kinda rhetorical) what is in the way that is preventing Sonic from getting these jumps and if we remove it, what kind of effect will it have on the rest of his game? (Replace Sonic with any other character not receiving momentum jumps)

 

[shanus]

See, I'm not so sure. I already mentioned that the code most likely took out a flag that restricts your air speed, but I don't think the flag actually sets your initial speed to zero. The fact that there are inconsistencies once the flag is removed proves this. You can't just brush it away by saying it "sometimes" works. If it's not working universally, then chances are that's not how it actually works.

I dunno, I just asked Almas to interpret the code

 

[spunit262]

Momentum Capture [Phantom wings, spunit262]
048668AC 60000000
C28669D8 00000008
807D007C 80630038
2C03000F 41820030
2C03000B 40A20024
C0020008 C04283D8
FC011040 40A00008
FC000050 C03B0018
FC210032 D03B0008
60000000 00000000
045A9328 3F4CCCCD

Retention value is hilighted, value currently in is 80%

All these problems should be fixed.

If this is say 100% transfer, see if you can make it 80%

Can this only be for short hops and full hops but not running off ledges?

No transfer for specials like ROBs side b

These characters appear to not be affected by the code with jumps, only running off of ledges.

Sonic (100%)
Marth (Maybe?)
Luigi (100%)
Pit (maybe?)