COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ivysaur and Olimar CAN hit with their UpBs though.

 

[trojanpooh]

So whats the deal with the friction mod? Will we need a character specific one or will this one be fine once the momentum code is done?

 

[The Cape]

We are actually looking into the Ivysaur and Olimar tether thing. Multi vine whip!

And Lucario with ASL isnt broken since his recovery does no damage and is super laggy.

 

[B.W.]

Friction would probably be best off character specific as one universal code for everyone makes at least one character's friction doubled, then some characters would either get too much or not enough.

If you ask me though, I don't think we really need anymore friction except on slopes so you don't slide when landing an aerial on them.

Some characters are just meant to slide, and it's no so bad that it breaks the game anyway.

 

[Alopex]

I was actually just thinking that... you know... walk off momentum makes it impossible to speed hug... so... people would take a bit longer to hug the edge so... they'd would gimp the tether characters less...

That was actually the only thing that crossed my mind.

I have, however, always been and always will be a supporter of giving Olimar and Ivysaur multiple UpB's. It only barely boosts their recovery, doing nothing more than making people have to time their hugs properly or risk getting stage spiked by their UpB's. This still happens a bit now, but there's no real reward for the Ivys and Oli's because they still die. Bring the opponent with you is just a consolation prize. At least this way they would actually be able to survive and thus get rewarded for successfully punishing their opponent.

If only we could find the IDs for the special moves... the MAD code already showed that we can apply or remove helpless frames after actions, it just sucks that we can't find those action IDs for the special moves...

 

[Revven]

Just wanted to tell you guys that we shouldn't buff DDD's Uthrow at all, it doesn't need buffing. He can Fair/Uair/Bair from it on most of the cast (unless you're super floaty). My friend SFG (a DDD main in vBrawl who now <3s B+) was able to do all of this to me, even when I tried DIing multiple different ways (like away from him, towards him, up and away, etc.) Nothing could avoid it unless hitstun ended or I was too high of a percent (or I wasn't a heavyweight and I was Jigglypuff). I haven't tried it with everyone but, for the characters I played it was a guaranteed setup so it doesn't need a decrease in knockback.

Also, DDD has a semi-CG on FF'ers at low pecents (REAL low percents) and by real low, I men only up to 30%. My friend SFG can do it quite consistently, even when I DI a different way, he just pivot grabs to regrab and Uthrow. (Yes, the CG is with the Uthrow).

Also, Sonic is LOTS of fun, jesus christ guys. Expect **** loads of footage and a possible 8 Minute combo video LOLOLOL.

 

[shanus]

Just wanted to tell you guys that we shouldn't buff DDD's Uthrow at all, it doesn't need buffing. He can Fair/Uair/Bair from it on most of the cast (unless you're super floaty). My friend SFG (a DDD main in vBrawl who now <3s B+) was able to do all of this to me, even when I tried DIing multiple different ways (like away from him, towards him, up and away, etc.) Nothing could avoid it unless hitstun ended or I was too high of a percent (or I wasn't a heavyweight and I was Jigglypuff). I haven't tried it with everyone but, for the characters I played it was a guaranteed setup so it doesn't need a decrease in knockback.

Also, DDD has a semi-CG on FF'ers at low pecents (REAL low percents) and by real low, I men only up to 30%. My friend SFG can do it quite consistently, even when I DI a different way, he just pivot grabs to regrab and Uthrow. (Yes, the CG is with the Uthrow).

Also, Sonic is LOTS of fun, jesus christ guys. Expect **** loads of footage and a possible 8 Minute combo video LOLOLOL.

Please dear god, not 8 minutes. Only excellent footage will get you more views, and keep people watching. Keep it to 4 minutes, trust me here ;-)

 

[osh77]

Does anyone else here play with mad or test it out with the new friction code? Or am I the only one?

 

[SketchHurricane]

We should probably think twice about giving Oli multi upBs. Remember that his upB propels him up a little bit? If we give him three, he magically has a badass triple jump upB. He's already beast on the ground, and his gimpability is what balances him. I have to question giving him any sort of buff at all, to be honest.

Ivy, on the other hand, could definitely use it.

 

[Dan_X]

We should probably think twice about giving Oli multi upBs. Remember that his upB propels him up a little bit? If we give him three, he magically has a badass triple jump upB. He's already beast on the ground, and his gimpability is what balances him. I have to question giving him any sort of buff at all, to be honest.

Ivy, on the other hand, could definitely use it.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure what to think about Oli getting it. If we could remove the boost than sure...

I do think that Ivy should have this option, he gets no momentum with his recovery, it'd make him a lot more... viable (not that he isn't-- it's just be nice to have a better off the stage game)

 

[Revven]

Please dear god, not 8 minutes. Only excellent footage will get you more views, and keep people watching. Keep it to 4 minutes, trust me here ;-)

No, dude, SFG and I got legit **** that's SO unique that I don't even think I'll be able to fit something under four minutes. >_>

 

[B.W.]

If not giving Olimar more than one boost with his up-B, maybe giving just giving him a higher boost with his up-B. It might aid his recovery at least a bit without giving him three boosts you can do individually.

Unless you can just make him boost up once, then have him fall the other times he's doing it.

 

[The Cape]

Sketch, thats the general consensus. If we did give it to both though we would have to make a time nerf on it so they cant just spam it. I was thinking something like about double the time that the hop would gain them before they could do it again.

Ivy I would definetly love to see have it, but not so much Olimar. He is really only being considered because Olimar players would complain that he doesnt have it, but everyone else can.

The general consensus seems to be go Ivy, screw Oli though :-p

 

[SketchHurricane]

Sketch, thats the general consensus. If we did give it to both though we would have to make a time nerf on it so they cant just spam it. I was thinking something like about double the time that the hop would gain them before they could do it again.

Ivy I would definetly love to see have it, but not so much Olimar. He is really only being considered because Olimar players would complain that he doesnt have it, but everyone else can.

The general consensus seems to be go Ivy, screw Oli though :-p

It's cuz Oli is good! He's my secondary, and I think he's one of the funnest characters in the game. I think of Oli as the extreme example of balance in Brawl - he's **** near broken on stage if used correctly, and utterly crap off stage if your opponent knows how to handle him. I think that's what makes him interesting and unique, and it should stay that way!

The timer idea is actually pretty good. I'd be willing to try that. He should definitely stay in the helpless state, though.

I think a tether boost to Ivy would just about finish him off for buffs. He's actually got some cool combos, and the ALR buff does wonders for him.

 

[Alopex]

Just give them both only 2, then.

The main thing I want to see is both Oli and Ivy have the ability to prevent a thoughtless edgehog. I mean, it takes absolutely nothing to just hang on on the ledge and begin a get up attack when Ivy/Oli is in the position to hit you with the UpB. The positioning is so precise due to the angle being specific and constant, that it's easily predicted and countered by the get up attack invincibility frames.

Give them 2. More to Ivy if you want.

I want people to need to actually TIME their speed hugs like they have to do for every other character. I want both Oli AND Ivy have the chance of ONE more UpB so that people will think instead of just hanging there, so that if an opponent is dumb enough to just hang there they can capitalize on that stupidity by having the ability to save themselves after they punish them.

That's all I see as being necessary to both parties. It's not about improving Oli's recovery to me, it's about removing how entirely idiot proof it is to just hang there with little thought and still get the kill.

 

[The Cape]

And this is why Alopex is my boy.

I cant wait til we get those things fixed. I think tethers are amazing tools for gimping, edgeguarding and recovering, but when you character has to rely on it, and can only do it once. GG they officialy suck at recovery.

Fix that for those two and we are golden. I dont see why they let ZSS have three attempts AND a down and B, then ****** Ivy and Oli.

 

[thesage]

can somebody pm me the link to the brawl + forums?

 

[BentoBox]

just Give Them Both Only 2, Then.

The Main Thing I Want To See Is Both Oli And Ivy Have The Ability To Prevent A Thoughtless Edgehog. I Mean, It Takes Absolutely Nothing To Just Hang On On The Ledge And Begin A Get Up Attack When Ivy/oli Is In The Position To Hit You With The Upb. The Positioning Is So Precise Due To The Angle Being Specific And Constant, That It's Easily Predicted And Countered By The Get Up Attack Invincibility Frames.

Give Them 2. More To Ivy If You Want.

I Want People To Need To Actually Time Their Speed Hugs Like They Have To Do For Every Other Character. I Want Both Oli And Ivy Have The Chance Of One More Upb So That People Will Think Instead Of Just Hanging There, So That If An Opponent Is Dumb Enough To Just Hang There They Can Capitalize On That Stupidity By Having The Ability To Save Themselves After They Punish Them.

That's All I See As Being Necessary To Both Parties. It's Not About Improving Oli's Recovery To Me, It's About Removing How Entirely Idiot Proof It Is To Just Hang There With Little Thought And Still Get The Kill.

Is THIS what you've been up to all this time? :[

 

[SketchHurricane]

@Alopex
Very good point. I'd definitely give 2 for Oli a try.

As for Ivy, I'm pondering how much use he would get out of a third one. His upB stops his momentum, so it doesn't help in moving you towards the stage. But I wonder if it could then be used to prevent a KO? That would be pretty cool, and might actually be a reason to give him 3 instead of 2, so that he could stop momentum, then have two left to get back.

The other ghey thing about his tether is that it only hits directly above him, pretty much 90 degrees. You're pretty much putting yourself in spike land if you try to hit them off the edge, and with no FF c-stick, people are going to be getting bold with those spikes.

 

[The Cape]

Ivy would be able to combo into his Up and B off the stage which would be cool and if you can get that tether snap where you grab the ledge but are too far from it and it doesnt stay. He gets SOOO much distance on that.

 

[Alopex]

It's definitely more than that, Sketch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJnzP70fzcY#t=3m23s

It's about a 50 degree angle, I say. Considering how tethers have a lot of range, they're amazing tools to prevent otherwise gimping.
I mean, if you're at tether range, you're pretty safe from a character coming at you because your tether will just about teleport you to the edge.

The price you pay for that is the limited ability to use the UpB as an offensive attack to bolster your return (like Link's UpB does, for example). However, you should still be able to use it to prevent idiot proof edge hanging.

At 50 degrees, you're still safe from spikes. After that point though, you might be more in danger. But at the point it's a race between what comes out first: the opponent's FF to spike, or your tether teleporting you up and through your enemy straight to the edge.

EDIT: In any case, a perfect edgehog will spell death for Ivy/Oli just at it does for any character. A perfect edgehogo will cause the ledge grab invincibility frames to protect you from the first UpB, and then you can just hang there and the second UpB won't really save them from death even if it hits you.

A perfect edgehog equals death for the opponent, as it's always been. No reason to have Oli/Ivy live past a perfect edgehog when no one else would. Which is why 2 UpB's max might be the best solution for both.

 

[Revven]

Hey gais, SFG and I just got 100 matches from TODAY alone. We are CRAZY good now OMG, such sexy combos. I'll be trying to get up all of them this week + a potential combo video (and some stuff for the community combo video). Look forward to'em because this is the BEST I've played.

 

[Dan_X]

Hey gais, SFG and I just got 100 matches from TODAY alone. We are CRAZY good now OMG, such sexy combos. I'll be trying to get up all of them this week + a potential combo video (and some stuff for the community combo video). Look forward to'em because this is the BEST I've played.

sounds good!!!

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm lookin forward to them too SMK lol.

I agree with The Cape that comboing with Up-B is cool, and being able to use it off the stage without dying will also be cool. Especially when you consider air momentum.

Also if you guys are looking for a reason to justify not giving Olimar multiple Up-Bs, well not only is he lighter and would probably get sent at a higher angle (And will more than likely be dying anyways) but he also has the super armor on his whistle to help him not get edgeguarded. =P

 

[The Cape]

Man, why is Mario the single coolest char in this game. He needs two small buffs and he is 100% legit A tier. He is a char who earns EVERYTHING and does it so well. I LOVE him.

Gotta get my match vids up :-p

The buffs are btw:
D tilt have a higher base of knockback and a bit less winddown lag (to make it useful)
Fair have a very small speed increase

 

[cAm8ooo]

About how many character buffs and nerfs will be in the next beta cape?

 

[Alopex]

You can fix both of those (minus KB increase) right now, Cape.

The Dtilt for sure you can fix by applying the same method you guys used on the MK Dsmash nerf.

Let's see, the Dtilt hits on frame 5 and ends on frame 34.
Utilt hits on 5 and ends on 29.
Ftilt hits on 5 and ends on 24.

Let's say you want to bring Dtilt to about an in between level, so let's say ending it on frame 26.

So bring difference from hit to end down to 21 frames instead of 29.

So the line for the Frame Mod code would be this:

00050029 3FB0C30C

Try it out. Remember, this is a Frame Mod line, so you'll need that mandatory first line of the Frame Mod code to precede this.

 

[Shell]

That will speed up the move universally after the hitbox is out. I suggested to Cape to just speed it up during the cool down section, although I'm not sure when that is.

 

[Alopex]

The cool down time is any time after the hitbox ends. After the hit is out, it doesn't matter at which frame you start modifying the speed, all that matters is how many frames it will take to reach the end.

So if you're saying you just want to make sure the move won't have its hitbox out time reduced, then I just need to shift the numbers a bit. Will only take me a sec.

We'll go way out and assume the hitbox is out for 3 frames. Unlikely, but it'll guarantee an unaltered hitbox with the same amount of end lag. Be right back.


EDIT:
Ok, done.

So we want to reduce the amount of frames after frame 5 to 21, but we want to keep the hitbox safe.

Ok, so we'll start the speed mod at frame 8, meaning we need to reduce the frames from 8-34 down to 8-21.

So bring 26 down to 13.

The code for that would be:

00080029 40000000

 

[kupo15]

what are ppls thoughts about keeping the momentum based b moves with the momentum code?

 

[Alopex]

Depends... did it affect Marth's Shield Breaker? Cause... I don't want a Shield Breaker flying at me from a SH...

Also... Pit's SideB and ROB's SideB? Even godlier recoveries with them getting horizontal momentum.

So I dunno... seems like a lot of balancing would be tipped.

 

[kupo15]

it doesn't affect any of those moves except robs side b and I think its only for on the ground.

 

[Pleather]

I may be a little late on the olimar/ivy up b discussion, but I just wanted to make a quick comment; You can't forget the applications of up b on or over the stage. It isn't a critical thing, but it's something to think about. I have used up b for both olimar and ivysaur as a combo ender in regular brawl. In brawl+, I can only imagine that this combo ender is even more viable. For example, you may not be able to reach your opponent with any other attack after a great aerial combo, yet they are still in hitstun, and you might have an extra, free shot, depending on just how far away they are, and where they are, in the air. Anyways, even though it looks like the appropriate actions being taken to balance their up b's for recovery will be appropriate for on stage use as well, I just thought I'd comment.

 

[GPDP]

I say get rid of side B momentum, even if it's just ROB that's the problem. He doesn't need that extra buff.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It affects Sonic's down B though and makes SDJ pretty much useless.

Which B moves does it affect specifically? If we do keep it, there are some B moves that should probably be left out (like Sonic's B moves lol). I personally don't think that we should keep it though.

 

[Pleather]

I say get rid of side B momentum, even if it's just ROB that's the problem. He doesn't need that extra buff.

I wouldn't even call it a buff =/. That little push has shot me into many a projectile before R.O.B. can reflect anything, I honestly think it's actually a buff to get rid of it.

 

[goodoldganon]

The only person it 'benefits' is Ganondorf and it's a double edge sword. On one hand you can Ganoncide from on the stage which is hilarious and badass. It also allows you to use the side-B as a safer recovery from off the stage. The momentum can carry you onto the stage but it can prevent a Ganoncide when you are actually trying for one.

Basically, I want it for teh lolz but it hurts more characters then it helps. Especially Sonic.

 

[kupo15]

ok so it def needs fixing but I know that sure as hell won't stop me from using it. I don't mind those side effects while I wait for the fixed code. If that code can't be fixed I might as well quit this project. I'm pretty sure its fixable

 

[goodoldganon]

Air Momentum will be a big code to debate if it can't be fixed. It makes the game significantly better for some and for others it's just meh. Maybe we can go by a specific character design with it.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i can't believe you sonic players don't like the down B momentum.