COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[zxeon]

No! Don't take my DACUS away.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think the pro-inescapablezerotodeath people need to understand one incredibly important thing about games. Not actually getting to play them isn't very fun.
Basically, playing the ICs are always fun as it is a very unique match-up, as it revolves around keeping Nana and Popo separated. However, if you actually get grabbed, you suddenly have no saying in what's going to happen in the game for quite some time. This while the other player completely and utterly ***** you.
Not actually getting to affect the course of the game is complete ****ing bull****. If you think that's what a game should be about, you have no business playing games at all.

I think everyone can agree that we should avoid this kind of non-gameplay if we can, but in this particular case there are some pronounced downsides to removing ICs infinites.
As we are all aware of, they aren't really the best characters in the game, and thus shouldn't receive any nerfs. Removing the infinites would undoubtedly make the ICs worse, but this argument can be worked around by buffing them in other aspects of their game.
If you think this would make the ICs play less unique, there is still desynching, which many argues would lead to IC players playing even more uniquely than before (presently they don't actually have to incorporate it into their playstyles).

This scenario can only play out if we find a good way to remove all infinites and keep all CGs which you can escape from by DI/teching. How we go around buffing the ICs aren't all that important.

A good thing to remember is that both sides are actually making valid claims, so lets sum 'em up along with some opinions (mine).

Pro-Infinte

"Don't fix what ain't broken!"

I must argue against this point, since a game without infinites would always be a better one. Just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it's not undesirable.
Thus the argument is invalid.


The ICs doesn't need any nerfs!

This statement is unanimously agreed upon, but if the sum of the buffs and nerfs the ICs receives in the final version of brawl+ is in favor of the ICs, they aren't actually being nerfed.
Thus the argument is invalid.


"Infinites are hard, ICs mess up really often!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu-9fm5GM-E
If someone can master that, someone is going to master CGing. I think we've debated technical skill enough considering the l-cancel debate.



"Pro-Fun"

"Infinites are boring."

I explained my stance on this in the wall of text above. Seriously, they are.




I'd like to end this in favor of the "Pro-Fun" people, simply because I think they're right. Makes sense, amirite?
However, it all comes down to if we can construct a code that removes what we want removed without affecting any other aspects of the ICs gameplay. If we can't remove it with hacks, I'd suggest we leave it untouched. It will still be boring and un-fun to face IC mains, but I can guarantee they won't dominate tournaments.



TL;DR


Infinites are gay.

I completely agree. No developer would design a character's playstyle around inescapable 0-death combos, and it's just no fun. No player should have to drop his controller during a match to wait to respawn. There should be an opportunity to get out of everything.

 

[kupo15]

So, Dedede is still viable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWN0JvrwYdo&feature=channel

vBrawl "combo" video. This stuff is actually possible now, makes me want to play him again.

Faster jab could help him out a bit, and I would like to see his "WD" a bit easier to do.

Something we could maybe do is lower the knockback of his U throw a bit to give him more options out of it?

He has D throw for tech chases, U throw for combos and setups (and maybe a fast faller CG) and he has forward and back throws to get people off the stage.

Or we can just make his forward B throw Waddle Doos and Gordos only.

And the momentum code will help out the WoP. I know we can't change hitboxes, does that mean we can't move them either? If so, making anything come out faster is impossible and we can only touch the cool down lag

No! Don't take my DACUS away.

its still there. If anything, I would like it to be for Falcon and the other two that slide a lot

 

[CountKaiser]

No! Don't take my DACUS away.

I thought the friction code was to counteract sliding done by the Momentum code.

Also, wouldn't even a slight change get rid of Luigi's poor traction? Are we sure that we want to do this?

 

[SketchHurricane]

cAm did mention it and I did tell him at the time that the task would be a pretty sizable undertaking if it's even possible, so I guess I'll repeat that here.

The system you're suggesting Sketch, though it looks promising in theory, the only one I see actually working out in terms of coding is the one where decay queue is used to register the number of grabs and then incite a grab break.

And even then, that sounds like it would take some pretty darn complex coding. I mean, the decay queue system doesn't cause any direct action on the game, creating a responsive system like that would be... well... a Phantom Wings-esque task.

I don't even know if it'll be worth the lines it might take up...

The logic itself is not that bad. It seems more like a "possible or not" question.

1. After each grab, check the queue for X grabs
Q: is there a way to monitor the queue?

2. If X grabs are present, trigger something like "replace grab hold animation with grab break animation"
Q: can we trigger stuff based on the queue?

3. Have the above happen only once (IE a one-time action replacement)
Q: are one-time replacements possible?

Of course, each of those steps could be further broken down into more pseudo-code based on what is possible. If PW (or anyone) can answer those questions, we'll have a better idea if we should even be bothering with this

BTW, to the guy who mentioned stalling: stopping 0-death also stops stalling, and if we can't stop 0-death, we can just use a the ol' %-based stalling rule approach (no need for a code).

 

[Problem2]

so you're suggesting that ICs automatically let go after 10 grabs? Well if you boost pummeling damage or something else that could work, but I'm still skeptical.

 

[Alopex]

Hmm... the friction code... does it apply a broad change to friction, applying the same multiplier to everyone? Can we make it character specific?

Cause that's what's most needed. It'll allow us to control Luigi's traction separately from CF and even work on extending the DACUS in a character specific manner. Zelda DACUS for mass ownage?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

A few points:

-Have you guys ever thought that maybe the whole notion that the ice climbers suck without infinite chain grabs is because that since their metagame is so developed around chaingrabs that other facets of their gameplay is untouched?

-if a player can put down his controller while receiving damage, then there's something wrong. even in combos, you have the chance to tech or DI. in a chain grab situation, you can go take a **** and come back. this is NOT good gameplay. this is POOR design. you should be able to get out, not wait to die or for the ice climbers to mess up.

 

[CountKaiser]

@Jiang: Probably. From what I can gather, desync doesn't seem important anymore. Orca, is desync useful in Brawl+?

 

[The Cape]

Desync sets up the throw infinites.

I still think removing Nana grab would not hurt them, it would remove their infinites and put in some more crazy need for other kinds of CGs that can still zero to death, but give the other player an actual chance to get out.

 

[cAm8ooo]

what 0-death CG's do they have with only popo grabbing. Besides the footstool ones you posted that im pretty sure r no longer possible do to buffering.

 

[SketchHurricane]

so you're suggesting that ICs automatically let go after 10 grabs? Well if you boost pummeling damage or something else that could work, but I'm still skeptical.

If possible, I think it would be a good solution (though the number would probably be less than 10). The average IC mainer messes up before 0-death anyway, right? We want to preserve the CG for the damage potential, since in practice, that's what it comes down to due to the difficulty of completing the 0-death.

IC Throw Damage (fresh)
F-throw - 8
D-throw - 6
B-throw - 6.5
U-throw - 6

A 5 Fthrow to Dthrow chain is still ~36%. That's a guaranteed 30 or so percent every time you grab. Start mixing in fair and/or other moves, and the damage climbs (no pun intended). A grab limit would have the positive side effect of forcing creative chains to pad the damage before the limit is reached. A 5 Dthrow (~30%) to fair (~12% IIRC) with an fsmash (18%) finisher would net you about 50% (an estimation accounting for fresh bonus). Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Start throwing pummels in there to pad it even more. And in the end, we can still buff IC damage in any number of ways to make up for the grab limit.

It's all wishful thinking though, since we don't even know if we can limit anything!

Desync sets up the throw infinites.

I still think removing Nana grab would not hurt them, it would remove their infinites and put in some more crazy need for other kinds of CGs that can still zero to death, but give the other player an actual chance to get out.

The Nana grab thing is probably way easier if possible, so it should also be considered.

 

[The Cape]

They still have:
D throw to D throw (Popo)
D throw to fair
B or F throw to toadstool hop fair
B or F throw to toadstool hop dair
Grab to down and B
Grab to forward B (miss last hit)
And of course, throw to smash.

Those are all CG setups with only Popo's grab. I think thats more than fair (and yes, some are more practical than others).

The other thing we can do, is make them both die when one dies.

 

[goodoldganon]

Nana is too stupid to tie her to your stock.

 

[cAm8ooo]

The other thing we can do, is make them both die when one dies.

Horrible idea. Nana is waaaay too easy to kill. She even kills herself sometimes. Its not fair to have to rely on a half ******** computer to keep you alive.

 

[Blank Mauser]

The other thing we can do, is make them both die when one dies.

Is that another joke? Oh you.

 

[The Cape]

That was my kidding part of the post. The rest was completely legit.

Also, by making it so she cant grab it doesnt hurt Popo himself in the least.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I'm glad you was joking. I was starting to question y u r a major part of making our codeset lol

 

[MuBa]

Code update:

MK's run and dash are slower
G&W have slower aerials
Bowser Fsmash is faster
Snake's Fsmash and Dsmash is a bit faster (not much)
DDD's Fsmash is faster

and blah blah blah

Oh yea, I replaced the Exit Shield Animation with Stand which means you can do anything after a shield!


Enjoy!


http://www.codecrater.com/brawlplus/USA/muba/

 

[Alopex]

There's one thing I WILL miss if Nana's grab get's removed, and it's something very legit and smart that I've seen some players do and have done myself to immense satisfaction:

Nana dashgrab approach.

Essentially, you run towards the opponent, Nana always runs a bit behind you. You shield (preferably Perfect Shield) the attack and then immediately shieldgrab. Done with proper timing, Nana won't have put up her shield at all but will instead just do a dashgrab. Popo takes the attack, gets pushed back a bit and his shieldgrab doesn't connect or just isn't in range to grab with it, but Nana is not hit by the attack and passes ahead of Popo with her dash grab and in this way she'll actually grab the opponent for you.

I've done this a few times. I'm no IC main so I don't know if that's a practical thing to do but it is certainly a lot of fun and is an extremely satisfying way to approach.

 

[trojanpooh]

MuBa, don't you think you should wait until the horizontal momentum code is fixed before using it in your code set?

 

[BEES]

Okay, tried the air momentum code.

went halfway across final destination with captain falcon in a short hop

I don't think this code is quite ready yet...

 

[CountKaiser]

Yeah, its a bit strong.

Question about the frame modifier. Say a move take 100 frames to execute (lol example), what would I need to put into the LLLLLLLL in order to make it execute by, say, 125 frames?

I ask this bcause I think I see an error in the Brawl+ beta set.

 

[Alopex]

That math is:

LLLLLLLL = x in float point
Actual frames/x = Desired frames

100/x = 135
x = 100/135
x = 0.740740...

0.740740... in float point is 3F3DA12F.

So the LLLLLLLL would be 3F3DA12F.


EDIT:
So did you find an error?

 

[zxeon]

Okay, tried the air momentum code.

went halfway across final destination with captain falcon in a short hop

I don't think this code is quite ready yet...

No, that sounds about right.

 

[MuBa]

MuBa, don't you think you should wait until the horizontal momentum code is fixed before using it in your code set?

The momentum code, while it's in beta form, is very fun and not as glitchy as the character speed modifier Igglyboo made.

I'll continue to use this code set since I am trying to make a more competitive version of FUN SPEED ACTIVATE.

 

[Shadic]

Snake's Fsmash and Dsmash is a bit faster (not much)

...What? Why? Snake is strong enough as-is.

 

[trojanpooh]

The momentum code, while it's in beta form, is very fun and not as glitchy as the character speed modifier Igglyboo made.

I'll continue to use this code set since I am trying to make a more competitive version of FUN SPEED ACTIVATE.

Fair enough. And I guess it lets you get the values right so you don't have to put too much effort into the transition to the fixed momentum code.

 

[goodoldganon]

Have we gotten any word on Momentum?

EDIT: Can someone link me the Music Hack code?

 

[CountKaiser]

That math is:

LLLLLLLL = x in float point
Actual frames/x = Desired frames

100/x = 135
x = 100/135
x = 0.740740...

0.740740... in float point is 3F3DA12F.

So the LLLLLLLL would be 3F3DA12F.


EDIT:
So did you find an error?

I might have. I mention it in the brawlplussery thread.

 

[MuBa]

...What? Why? Snake is strong enough as-is.

Lol don't worry. It's not going to be overpowered.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Ugh, I hate to ask this but here goes:

Smashville rules but the music sucks, I need a new song on it. Can someone link me the music mod? Or if someone wants to do the work for me, Smashville with the Metal Gear Solid Love Theme or Open Your Heart from Sonic Adventure.

You, sir, fail. Though I may be biased. I feel every stage should have K.K. Rider playing, haha.

There are codes that allow you to do custom music on each stage. I forget where they are linked at though. In any case, this is NOT the topic to ask this sort of question.


Alright, until momentum is fixed, I'd like to bring up another topic, because the issue hasn't been fully dealt with. How do we feel about the tether recoveries? Are Olimar and Ivysaur too easy to gimp? Should they be able to tether 3 times in the air, like Samus uses her grab, or would this be too overpowered? Should they be able to attack after using the tether attack?

 

[goodoldganon]

Tethers are fine because they have the advantage of ASL that no one else (cept Lucario) has. If you mess the edgehog up on Olimar or ZSS is kinda spells death.

 

[Alopex]

So I just realized that walk-off momentum is a nice buff for tether characters.

 

[trojanpooh]

So I just realized that walk-off momentum is a nice buff for tether characters.

Really? Hows that?

 

[Dan_X]

Really? Hows that?

Because they can still easily hug the edge by tether as soon as they leave the egde, almost before they're fully off.

In addition, they can safely run off glide with momentum, and make it back with their tether.

 

[stingers]

How come Lucario has ASL but nobody else does?

 

[storm92]

How come Lucario has ASL but nobody else does?

Read-only recovery, we couldn't edit it.
It's fine though for him, he kind of needs it because it is so laggy on the stage it would be punishable almost every single time.

Edit: Write protected.
Read only, write protected, same difference :D

 

[GPDP]

How come Lucario has ASL but nobody else does?

His Up-B appears to be write-protected, so we can't make it not ASL. It's ok, though, because he's one of the few characters that really needs it.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I dunno, other characters have grapples that can hit the person hanging on the edge and be used again , like Samus (unless I'm mistaken).

Is it fair that Olimar and Ivysaur don't?