COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[CountKaiser]

Aren't we fixing what's already broken?

Should the cg be a problem, we can easily fix it. But it isn't a problem yet.

Though foresight seems to be making its way into Brawl+, considering that Cape want's to nerf G&W even further.

 

[matt4300]

Ok time to settle this.

You're both acting like children. OK? Both of you need to take a chill pill, sit back, and try to understand where the frick the other person is coming from.

Orca, there was no good reason you had to resort to insults. You also never did respond to alopex's point about the chain throw making you helpless. He would not have kept badgering you over it otherwise. Had you said "that doesn't matter and this is why" then perhaps it would have been better received. You made valid points about the removal of IC's alt throws, but you failed to keep them within the context of the argument.

On the other hand, Alopex, you shouldn't just disregard relevant points, even if they aren't in direct response to what you said. Yes, I said relevant points. "Fun" is highly subjective. What may not be fun for you could be very fun for the IC main. This is why you can't argue something based solely upon the "fun" factor. Yes, that can be your ultimate reason (it's the ultimate reason for any of this), but when making something more "fun" creates new problems, you need to come up with ways to fix those problems, or just abandon the idea. So far, everything we've done to this game has been done while looking out for things that hurt certain characters.

Ah, you sum it up better than I do (I also have alittle to much of my own agenda in my posts .. v_v')

This is the real question though, where do you guys in the brawl+ br stand on the subject.. Our opinions matter much less than the poeple with the special status and the code monkeys( I mean that in a none sarcastic way) thats what really matters becuase you guys have the power. We just try and make good arguments and hope our prayers are answered...

 

[Dan_X]

We just try and make good arguments and hope our prayers are answered...

lol so true.

 

[Alopex]

Ok time to settle this.

You're both acting like children. OK? Both of you need to take a chill pill, sit back, and try to understand where the frick the other person is coming from.

On the other hand, Alopex, you shouldn't just disregard relevant points, even if they aren't in direct response to what you said. Yes, I said relevant points. "Fun" is highly subjective. What may not be fun for you could be very fun for the IC main. This is why you can't argue something based solely upon the "fun" factor. Yes, that can be your ultimate reason (it's the ultimate reason for any of this), but when making something more "fun" creates new problems, you need to come up with ways to fix those problems, or just abandon the idea. So far, everything we've done to this game has been done while looking out for things that hurt certain characters. Just flat out removing the CGs of the ICs could ruin the character, which would be against the point of this project.

Debating isn't acting like a child unless you debate like a child. I welcome you to read all my posts and then point out at exactly which point I deviated from conventional debate tactics.

Furthermore, he was making the same point as you over and over. A point which this quote already explained my stance on:

Wobbling was legal, so yes the Alternate Throws could also be legal.

Meaning I never contested its validity. So I knew exactly where he was coming from and had already made my point long before he even posted. I even reposted that same point for him to read for himself. He chose to ignore it. I was under no further obligation to indulge in his game of "Let's play Straw Man".

And hey, you should remember my ORIGINAL post on this matter, the one you responded to? Where I said I like the alternate throws and (escapable with DI) CG's? The one where I mentioned my only problem with it was the 0-death, because it's not fun to be helpless and the Brawl+ is primarily a project of what is fun? The one where the words "broken" or "cheap" NEVER came up because that's not how I feel about the technique?

Hey, have you noticed that Dedede is a crap character without his CG's? This was known to people even in vBrawl. Now, why did we remove his CG's completely? Ah yes! No one who wasn't a Dedede main thought it was a fun mechanic.

In case you haven't noticed yet, Leaf, I don't do double standards.

 

[Dan_X]

Aren't we fixing what's already broken?

Should the cg be a problem, we can easily fix it. But it isn't a problem yet.

Though foresight seems to be making its way into Brawl+, considering that Cape want's to nerf G&W even further.

I think we should be careful with our foresight to be honest. We can't possibly see everything that will arise from Brawl+ tournaments. Even if we fix everything that we can think of right now, something new will pop up and people will probably see the need to change it. We should only change what is overtly problematic right now, and deal with other problems when and if they arise. We shouldn't guess what the future will bring.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

to expand upon alopex's point: ddd wasn't broken and neither was falco with chain grabs, yet no one misses their chain grabs. and we can all agree how lame and stupid those cgs were. people just adapted to their playstyle without them. just because the ice climber metagame hasn't advanced beyond chain grabs doesn't mean they're terrible without them.

 

[leafgreen386]

Debating isn't acting like a child unless you debate like a child. I welcome you to read all my posts and then point out at exactly which point I deviated from conventional debate tactics.

Furthermore, he was making the same point as you over and over. A point which this quote already explained my stance on:


Meaning I never contested its validity. So I knew exactly where he was coming from and had already made my point long before he even posted. I even reposted that same point for him to read for himself. He chose to ignore it. I was under no further obligation to indulge in his game of "Let's play Straw Man".

And hey, you should remember my ORIGINAL post on this matter, the one you responded to? Where I said I like the alternate throws and (escapable with DI) CG's? The one where I mentioned my only problem with it was the 0-death because it's not fun to be helpless and the Brawl+ is primarily a project of what is fun? The one where the words "broken" or "cheap" NEVER came up because that's not how I feel about the technique?

Hey, have you noticed that Dedede is a crap character without his CG's? This was known to people even in vBrawl. Now, why did we remove his CG's completely? Ah yes! No one who wasn't a Dedede main thought it was a fun mechanic.

In case you haven't noticed yet, Leaf, I don't do double standards.

You're doing it still...

You don't say "we need to change this" and then don't consider what other problems it might bring to the table. Yeah, you've stated that the IC's alt throws could be a legit tactic, but you've also stated (time and time again) that you don't think they're fun to fight against because of that. Ok. That's great. But let's say we do take away their alt throws. Then what? What are you going to do to keep that from hurting their character? How would you implement this so that it doesn't suck for them? This is what you should be making your points from. Not "I don't think it's fun." Not "that's a strawman" against what are legit concerns. You're making a proposal before a large corporation to expand to new demographics without concerns of what might happen to the old demographics. Orca is calling you out on that. Come up with ways to mitigate the problems you're creating to keep everyone happy. You can't properly debate with only a half-baked idea you're just throwing around backed by nothing but an opinion.

 

[The Cape]

Get rid of Nana grab. Makes room for skill CGs and keeps them good without making it as stupid.

And GW needs more lag after his F and D smashes.

Example of ICers stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg

Skill Mofos.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Ooo ****. Thats sexy as hell

Is this still doable in brawl+?

 

[Problem2]

The only thing that would accomplish is make chain grabs harder, but a good player would still infinite just the same, making it worse only for mediocre ice climbers.

 

[matt4300]

Leaf? can you respond to my last post before I go to bed? You guys are the final word on all this mess... Theres really not even a point in trying to argue or stop arguments... I'm sure you guys have gone over the Ic Cgs once before so what was the general consensus?

 

[Alopex]

You're doing it still...

You don't say "we need to change this" and then don't consider what other problems it might bring to the table. Yeah, you've stated that the IC's alt throws could be a legit tactic, but you've also stated (time and time again) that you don't think they're fun to fight against because of that. Ok. That's great. But let's say we do take away their alt throws. Then what? What are you going to do to keep that from hurting their character? How would you implement this so that it doesn't suck for them? This is what you should be making your points from. Not "I don't think it's fun." Not "that's a strawman" against what are legit concerns. You're making a proposal before a large corporation without any thoughts about what negative effects your plan might have. Orca is calling you out on that. Come up with ways to mitigate the problems you're creating. You can't properly debate with only a half-baked idea you're throwing around.

What about removing Falco's CG's doesn't suck for Falcos?
What about removing Dedede's CG doesn't suck for Dedede's?
What about nerfing MK's Dsmash doesn't suck for MK?
What have we implemented that doesn't suck for them?

Combos thanks to hitstun? The IC's and just about everyone else got that too. And it actually does nothing for Dedede.

You want to argue from the perspective of the attacker, then look at all of the attackers that got nerfed without a single thought as to how THEY would be affected by the change. We both know those changes got made in order to benefit the person going AGAINST those characters, but you want to treat the IC's differently?

We both know that Mk got nerfed because it's not fun to play AGAINST him. We both know the CG's got removed because it's not fun to be IN them. Not once did we do any of those changes based on what is fun for the attacker. So don't come at me with arguments about fun being one-sided and subjective when you know full well that Brawl+ nerfs have only ever focused on one side of the coin.

There's no legit concern where there is a double standard.

 

[Dan_X]

You're doing it still...

You don't say "we need to change this" and then don't consider what other problems it might bring to the table. Yeah, you've stated that the IC's alt throws could be a legit tactic, but you've also stated (time and time again) that you don't think they're fun to fight against because of that. Ok. That's great. But let's say we do take away their alt throws. Then what? What are you going to do to keep that from hurting their character? How would you implement this so that it doesn't suck for them? This is what you should be making your points from. Not "I don't think it's fun." Not "that's a strawman" against what are legit concerns. You're making a proposal before a large corporation to expand to new demographics without concerns of what might happen to the old demographics. Orca is calling you out on that. Come up with ways to mitigate the problems you're creating to keep everyone happy. You can't properly debate with only a half-baked idea you're just throwing around backed by nothing but an opinion.

Well put.

Get rid of Nana grab. Makes room for skill CGs and keeps them good without making it as stupid.

And GW needs more lag after his F and D smashes.

Example of ICers stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg

Skill Mofos.

That is a nice combo, I have quite a bit of work to do with footstool combos. However, I still think that Nana (with no grab) will take far too much away from a character that isn't so good that they merit said nerf. It's unnecessary in my honest opinion.

 

[The Cape]

Problem2:

You can still smash DI out. It makes the CGs alot harder and gives you a chance to get out.

If there is a move inbetween you at least have the ability to try to get out.

 

[CountKaiser]

Brawl+ nerfs have focused on what's too good. MK got nerfed because he was still godly, as were the chaingrabs of Falco and DDD. Th difference here is that IC was never godly with CG, and are now made worse without it.

Without a CG, DDD and Falco are still viable characters. IC are not. How do you plan to rectify this if we were to take out their CG?

 

[Dan_X]

Brawl+ nerfs have focused on what's too good. MK got nerfed because he was still godly, as were the chaingrabs of Falco and DDD. Th difference here is that IC was never godly with CG, and are now made worse without it.

Without a CG, DDD and Falco are still viable characters. IC are not. How do you plan to rectify this if we were to take out their CG?

Thank you.

 

[Alopex]

Too good? According to who? What makes it too good? How do you define what is "too good"? What is the process used to determine that which is too good? Do you poll people? Is it reliable? Wouldn't things that are "too good" be banned by the SBR-B? Was any of it? Do we believe ourselves better than the SBR-B? Is that not being subjective? Is not everything that's been done so far entirely subjective?

My arguments are fought based on their subjectiveness and yet no one realizes the subjectiveness of every change that's been done so far? Not to attack the Brawlplusery, but they're making changes to the characters based on how "about right" they "feel". I can quote Shanus on that (no offense to you, Shanus). I'm sorry, but, seriously, you guys only bring up subjectiveness at ME? Look at your own arguments.

Oh, and also? Dedede is not a viable character without his CG's. This was true in vBrawl. Just look at his match-ups. The ones with CG's are mostly neutral. The one without CG's are ALL bad match-ups.
He hasn't gained anything in Brawl+ to make up for his CG loss. In fact, he got nerfed because he's easily comboed and has no combos of his own. Everyone seems to be A-OK with that, though. Funny.

EDIT: Penor-riding to boost your post count, for the win, eh Orca?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well in defense, I did ask for people to buff D3. Yeeee and my change got accepted. <3

Post Count +1

 

[leafgreen386]

In case you haven't noticed yet, Leaf, I don't do double standards.

There's no legit concern where there is a double standard.

I'm amused.

 

[thesage]

Get rid of Nana grab. Makes room for skill CGs and keeps them good without making it as stupid.

And GW needs more lag after his F and D smashes.

Example of ICers stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg

Skill Mofos.

I know the guy who made that video personally and even he cannot do ic's infinites (the hard ones) consistently.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Also. He said in a comment that you had to buffer some of them. Since buffering is reduced. It would make it even harder to pull off

 

[Alopex]

I'm amused.

I would love to join in on the chuckling.

You think those posts are contradicting each other? Because the "legit concern" was your wording, which you used to describe yours and Orca's arguments, both of which were rooted in double standards and, therefore, were not legitimate concerns at all, but biased concerns.

But hey, I'd love to get caught red-handed, so please.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I haven't kept up on this code but can anyone tell me why we're changing friction? Will we still be able to push shielding people into water/banana/mine combos?

 

[Alopex]

The main reason people wanted a friction code was to counter-act the crazy sliding that the momentum code is currently causing.

 

[CountKaiser]

Too good? According to who? What makes it too good? How do you define what is "too good"? What is the process used to determine that which is too good? Do you poll people? Is it reliable? Wouldn't things that are "too good" be banned by the SBR-B? Was any of it? Do we believe ourselves better than the SBR-B? Is that not being subjective? Is not everything that's been done so far entirely subjective?

My arguments are fought based on their subjectiveness and yet no one realizes the subjectiveness of every change that's been done so far? Not to attack the Brawlplusery, but they're making changes to the characters based on how "about right" they "feel". I can quote Shanus on that (no offense to you, Shanus). I'm sorry, but, seriously, you guys only bring up subjectiveness at ME? Look at your own arguments.

Oh, and also? Dedede is not a viable character without his CG's. This was true in vBrawl. Just look at his match-ups. The ones with CG's are mostly neutral. The one without CG's are ALL bad match-ups.
He hasn't gained anything in Brawl+ to make up for his CG loss. In fact, he got nerfed because he's easily comboed and has no combos of his own. Everyone seems to be A-OK with that, though. Funny.

EDIT: Penor-riding to boost your post count, for the win, eh Orca?

Have you seen the tier list? Meta-Knight is in a tier of his own, and so far does not have a bad matchup. That's too good.

The fact that solely due to a broken mechanic, DDD is deadly is too good.

The fact that Falco can get a guaranteed 30% or so damage on someone due to a cg (or essentially a 0-death of Wolf) is too good.


The fact that IC can cg someone to death is too good.

In this sense, "too good" is a euphemism for broken.

The difference here? With the nerfs, Falco and MK are still beasts. DDD could use some help, I won't lie, and without the cg, IC also need a suitable buff.

Now stop dancing around my earlier question and answer me. What buff do you intend to give the IC should we take away their cg?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Oh, we'll hopefully the momentum code will be fixed because I like friction on shielding people. Not to mention other positional tricks and stuffs. I dunno I guess it just surprised me.

 

[The Cape]

Also. He said in a comment that you had to buffer some of them. Since buffering is reduced. It would make it even harder to pull off

Difficulty should never be a factor when looking into something like that.

As for DDD, faster jab should help him out alot, does he really need anything else?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well all I asked for was a higher full jump because he had limited options with his aerials before. He has a predictable recovery, isn't nearly as great an edgeguarder as other flyers, and his grab game had no follow-ups before. Without techchasing the uses for Dsmash and Usmash are more limited too. With a higher full jump he can combo more people out of his Uthrow, and he has about as many aerial options as Kirby. I think with Air momentum he'll be pretty decent, but not quite up there yet.

 

[thesage]

How is Ness shaping up? Somebody posted earlier saying that he hasn't changed that much. I find it hard to believe that. He was on the borderline of comboing a lot of people in vbrawl. Is sourspot fair to jab a true combo now? It needed one more frame of hitstun to be a true combo. I've also heard dair and uair can combo into pkt2 at certain percents. Could somebody (the cape, cuz I think he knows mow and his melee ness pretty well) tell me more about him?

 

[Raym]

With a nerfed shieldgrab and with the tiny grab range of the ICs, i dont see how their chaingrabs are a problem at all.
Removing it because is boring to play versus it is a bad reason.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Difficulty should never be a factor when looking into something like that.

As for DDD, faster jab should help him out alot, does he really need anything else?

Well. Is it even still possible without buffering?

 

[Alopex]

Have you seen the tier list? Meta-Knight is in a tier of his own, and so far does not have a bad matchup. That's too good.

The fact that solely due to a broken mechanic, DDD is deadly is too good.

The fact that Falco can get a guaranteed 30% or so damage on someone due to a cg (or essentially a 0-death of Wolf) is too good.

Once again, if it was too good, he would be banned by the SBR-B, a collective body who know vBrawl better than anyone here. In fact, MK is still not banned from any major tournament. If he was too good, he would be. So, tell me, what Brawl+ authority decided that MK was "too good" and what stats did they possibly use that the SBR-B hasn't already looked over and come to the exact opposite decision?
Exact same argument applies to Dedede's CG.
Exact same argument applies to Falco's CG.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't like having those in there, but don't try to pass those changes off as undeniably objective when they clearly are not.

The fact that IC can cg someone to death is too good.

In this sense, "too good" is a euphemism for broken.

So you want to get rid of it, then. I mean, if it's in the same class as the previous things and you had nothing against getting rid of the previous things...

In that case, you'll need to start preparing for your arguments with Orca or Leaf.

The difference here? With the nerfs, Falco and MK are still beasts. DDD could use some help, I won't lie, and without the cg, IC also need a suitable buff.

Now stop dancing around my earlier question and answer me. What buff do you intend to give the IC should we take away their cg?

I would do what I would do for any character. I would buff their moveset. I would look at attack speeds, attack knockback, attack properties, their character speed, and work from the ground up to make them viable without needing controversial tricks.
We don't have the codes for that yet, though, so it'll have to wait.

But really, did you expect me to say anything different from that?

 

[The Cape]

Sage, I love Ness. I think he plays excellently. He could use a few buffs, but his physics are at least nice.

Buffs like faster smashes, not go into freefall if he hits something with PKT2 in the air. More useable B moves. Things like that.

Alopex, DDD and Falco CG were actually "fixed" on accident.

 

[CountKaiser]

I was expecting something specific, like Cape's suggestion to speed up DDD's jab. Saying that you want to buff their moveset isn't really telling me anything. It's essentially the same as saying "they should be buffed." How do you suggest that we do that?

I already have a suggestion: Make Nana's AI better.

What controls her AI? Is she set at a certain level? Can this be changed by the Default CPU level modifier?

In fact, that's not a bad place to start. Could someone test that, with the XX set to 10?

The hackers can't make a code if they don't know what the end result should achieve.

Also, something I like to bring up. If the IC cg is so hard, why do people rely on it so heavily? If such is the case, then that's a sign that they probably need something else regardless of the cg.

 

[Blank Mauser]

lol I don't think Nana's AI is based on CPU level. Shes pretty much set to do certain things in certain situations with maybe a few random bits on teching or something. You'd think if she was based on CPU then she would adapt with the rest of Brawl's AI and their ability to copy patterns over time.

 

[Alopex]

I was expecting something specific, like Cape's suggestion to speed up DDD's jab. Saying that you want to buff their moveset isn't really telling me anything. It's essentially the same as saying "they should be buffed." How do you suggest that we do that?

I can't suggest anything specific without first going into much deeper analysis. At the time of this writing, I have not yet done that enough to suggest accurate specific changes.

Furthermore, not everything can be done yet. We can't affect knockback of moves. And the Frame Mod code that we use to speed up animations doesn't seem to affect the hitbox at all. I believe it was Jiangjunizzy who tested this using Ivysaur's UpSmash, where he made the animation super slow but still had the hitbox come out at the time it would have normally.

I won't start suggesting specific stuff if it can't even be done yet. That makes Almas angry, and he's got red letters now...


Cape, you should test out what I just said about hitbox and the frame mod. If it's as Jiang (or whoever exactly) reported, then speeding up Dedede's jab might actually do nothing to speed up the actual hitbox.

Also, yeah, they were "fixed" on accident (awesome use of quotation marks), but no one really complained about them simply because of their vBrawl tier placing, with no regard to what would happen to their Brawl+ viability.

Meanwhile, you talk about nerfing someone who isn't high/top tier in order to prevent a double standard and all of a sudden you get people jumping at you without even realizing their own subjectivity and bias...

 

[Blank Mauser]

yeah Jiang slowed down Dsmash. I don't know if the same applies for speeding a move up by small amounts(Moves that aren't already fast and speeding it up won't make it unstable/skip hitboxes) because Ganon's jab seems to work fine.

 

[The Cape]

I actually miss DDD CG. I just wish he couldnt infinite it against a wall.

 

[CountKaiser]

Actually, we can affect knockback of moves. The code for it is a bit crude, though. It should be on the first page.

 

[leafgreen386]

I was expecting something specific, like Cape's suggestion to speed up DDD's jab. Saying that you want to buff their moveset isn't really telling me anything. It's essentially the same as saying "they should be buffed." How do you suggest that we do that?

I already have a suggestion: Make Nana's AI better.

What controls her AI? Is she set at a certain level? Can this be changed by the Default CPU level modifier?

In fact, that's not a bad place to start. Could someone test that, with the XX set to 10?

The hackers can't make a code if they don't know what the end result should achieve.

Also, something I like to bring up. If the IC cg is so hard, why do people rely on it so heavily? If such is the case, then that's a sign that they probably need something else regardless of the cg.

Nana has her own special AI, or so I would assume. Her actions are based around there being another player around her, from who she takes actions from, so I doubt she has anything to do with a "level." And actually, doesn't she take a certain number of frames to perform an action from when popo does it? Changing this could remove certain desyncs (ie. DD desync), which would hurt a lot more than help. The reaction speed of nana's AI isn't the problem... it's just her doing stupid things at stupid times.

@Alopex: I'm done with this argument. All it comes down to is you wanting to make the game more "fun" for players by nerfing their grab, which can't even be argued objectively. We can't argue with you about the game being more "fun" without them because "fun" cannot be quantified. As for staying consistent with chain throws, there really are situations where you need to deal with things on a case-by-case basis, instead of just making some blanket statement and following through with that. Until you come up with something that will keep the IC mains happy, though, there isn't really anything to argue about.