COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Alopex]

It's not just crude, it's... well... there's a reason it's not being used by anyone.

 

[CountKaiser]

Because it ***** with other hitboxes? I know. It can still used to create a more specific KB modifier.

 

[Alopex]

@Alopex: I'm done with this argument. All it comes down to is you wanting to make the game more "fun" for players by nerfing their grab, which can't even be argued objectively. We can't argue with you about the game being more "fun" without them because "fun" cannot be quantified. As for staying consistent with chain throws, there really are situations where you need to deal with things on a case-by-case basis, instead of just making some blanket statement and following through with that. Until you come up with something that will keep the IC mains happy, though, there isn't really anything to argue about.

And yet again you miss the point where everything done so far has been done under the same pretenses I've presented, that of subjective decisions over what is "balanced". So don't go around discrediting my approach when it's the exact same approach that's being used by the Brawlplusery.

What is "fun" and what is "balanced" are both subjective until proven undeniably broken. Nothing aside from standing infinites has so far been proven to be undeniably broken, so everything you're doing is the same as everything I'm doing except under different terms of subjectivity.

Yet you're right and I'm wrong because of it?


Let me ask you this: what have YOU done to make Dedede mains happy?
You can't demand I think of something for the IC's when you won't bother to do the same for every other character out there.
As it stands, you're demanding I concede to the very thing you will not. Or do you have a plan to make Dedede mains happy having lost the only thing that made him unique and viable?

Oh but he was A tier, IC's were C tier, it's perfectly OK, etc etc... I really hope that's not a thought crossing your mind.

@Kaiser
You realize that Phantom Wings, the most talented coder we have, has yet to be able to crack that right? And you're just suggesting offhandedly like it should have been done by now. That's a surefire way to piss off the coders which are doing nothing more than slaving themselves for your enjoyment.

 

[Dan_X]

Alopex, you seem to have some understanding, some belief, that I'm utterly happy with the loss of other character chaingrabs. As far as I know, we didn't try to remove them, it was a side effect of changing hitstun, right? If I could restore them, sure, why not. The ICs CGs weren't removed on the basis that they work differently than the other characters, as there are two characters involved.

The ICs are obscure, they rely on tactics outside the realm of most every character in the game, and I don't see why this should be penalized. Their CGs are quite difficult to execute, especially to pull them off in a reliable fashion (without messing up). Not only that, but they can be fairly easily counter picked. I enjoy playing the ICs because they're different, they're refreshing. They rely on a collaborative effort between each other to be effective, whether it's desynching, or chainging, they're very satisfying to play. It feels so great to pull off a rather difficult combo; chaingrab with them. Remember, this "obscure" style of gameplay works for them, so why change it? Not any1 can play the ICs, they have to be dedicated, they have to learn a TON. They are not easy to play-- make no mistake about it. Just buffing their moves, changing knockback.. none of that stuff would matter, it would take away a hugely satisfying side of the character, and most every IC main would be upset. This is not the same as the other characters losing their CGs, because the CGs were not as integral to the other characters. I can agree that DDD lost quite a bit, his chain grab was important.. but still, the ICs have such a vastly intricate game built around them, and there's no need to change it. Very few of the ICs mains will become good enough where they can truly get the most out of their CGs that they can. It's requires a boatload of motivation, time, and effort, many will never get that far. I know I have quite a bit of distance to make with the ICs. There' an interesting character, I feel that they should be preserved.

Make a code to restore other chaingrabs, I'd be fine. Remember I play Falco. Sure I hated losing it, but at the same time, he's still really darn good. Also, the CG still works if the enemy DIs poorly.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Also, yeah, they were "fixed" on accident (awesome use of quotation marks), but no one really complained about them simply because of their vBrawl tier placing, with no regard to what would happen to their Brawl+ viability.

Meanwhile, you talk about nerfing someone who isn't high/top tier in order to prevent a double standard and all of a sudden you get people jumping at you without even realizing their own subjectivity and bias...

I'm actually going to have to disagree here.

The reason that no one cared is that Dedede and Falco's CGs were the very definition of idiot proof. A monkey with half a brain could wall infinite someone. Falco's CG led into a spike from the middle of the stage, and it was incredibly hard to avoid for certain characters.

They made stages otherwise playable to be banned. They destroyed certain characters that were otherwise decent. And above all, they WEREN'T fun for either party. There was 0 chance of someone screwing up a chaingrab once they had it down. Remember which percentages (for Dedede, anywhere between 0 %and 999%) and what characters that you can CG, and you're golden.

Take these away, add Brawl+ physics, and both of them have combo potential now. Dedede still has a sweet grab game, and Falco's dthrow is still comboable. Nothing was taken away from them except a free win against any poor SOB unlucky enough to not fall far enough after a throw.

I state this as a vBrawl Dedede main, and a Brawl+ Dedede sub. Doing the CGs was not fun. They were boring.


Doing the IC's chaingrab, however is not. Your input actually matters. Don't lump the IC's CG in with the two idiot proof whorechains. They're much less alike than a lot of people seem to think. The only similarity is that they both involve more than one grab.


And with that, I'll leave you people to your arguing. >_>

 

[adumbrodeus]

Get rid of Nana grab. Makes room for skill CGs and keeps them good without making it as stupid.

And GW needs more lag after his F and D smashes.

Example of ICers stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg

Skill Mofos.

Didn't we go through this with l-canceling?

Why in God's good name would we force people to arbitrarily require mare technical skill. actually, fewer arbitrary tech skill barriers results in a better overall game, though depth is more important at the end of the day.

I'm actually going to have to disagree here.

The reason that no one cared is that Dedede and Falco's CGs were the very definition of idiot proof. A monkey with half a brain could wall infinite someone. Falco's CG led into a spike from the middle of the stage, and it was incredibly hard to avoid for certain characters.

They made stages otherwise playable to be banned. They destroyed certain characters that were otherwise decent. And above all, they WEREN'T fun for either party. There was 0 chance of someone screwing up a chaingrab once they had it down. Remember which percentages (for Dedede, anywhere between 0 %and 999%) and what characters that you can CG, and you're golden.

Take these away, add Brawl+ physics, and both of them have combo potential now. Dedede still has a sweet grab game, and Falco's dthrow is still comboable. Nothing was taken away from them except a free win against any poor SOB unlucky enough to not fall far enough after a throw.

I state this as a vBrawl Dedede main, and a Brawl+ Dedede sub. Doing the CGs was not fun. They were boring.


Doing the IC's chaingrab, however is not. Your input actually matters. Don't lump the IC's CG in with the two idiot proof whorechains. They're much less alike than a lot of people seem to think. The only similarity is that they both involve more than one grab.


And with that, I'll leave you people to your arguing. >_>

Not idiot proof = I don't have to arbitrarily spend hours in training mode to practice this just for the character to be usable.

There's nothing inherently superior about doing a more difficult technique, all that matters is effects and ease of landing the initial strike of the combo. The more difficult tech just wastes more of your life (which again, is a viable exchange for depth, but making playing it more difficult to do what you want to do with your character is inherently stupid).


The reason why nobody complains about Falco and DDD is that they're both amazing characters already, it's unnecessary, so nobody really minds a nerf as a side effect.

ICs however are already horrible. Take away their deathgrabs and infinite and you just make them worse, and that's a bad thing.


Edit: The "illegal stages" is a fair point howeve, but it's not because they're idiot proof.

 

[CountKaiser]

@Alopex: I'm just stating an idea, calm down. I meant no offense. That, and I figured that PW wasn't working on that at the moment, since he's doing the Shield during DD, true spikes and tech window.

Gecko 2.0 (hopefully) should be coming out soon. We have a code that modifies character gravity and jumps individually. Could the same be applied to moves? If so, then that could be patched into the game.

This is all a suggestion, and chances are I'm sounding like an idiot. If, somehow, I offended someone, I apologize.

 

[Dan_X]

I'm actually going to have to disagree here.

The reason that no one cared is that Dedede and Falco's CGs were the very definition of idiot proof. A monkey with half a brain could wall infinite someone. Falco's CG led into a spike from the middle of the stage, and it was incredibly hard to avoid for certain characters.

They made stages otherwise playable to be banned. They destroyed certain characters that were otherwise decent. And above all, they WEREN'T fun for either party. There was 0 chance of someone screwing up a chaingrab once they had it down. Remember which percentages (for Dedede, anywhere between 0 %and 999%) and what characters that you can CG, and you're golden.

Take these away, add Brawl+ physics, and both of them have combo potential now. Dedede still has a sweet grab game, and Falco's dthrow is still comboable. Nothing was taken away from them except a free win against any poor SOB unlucky enough to not fall far enough after a throw.

I state this as a vBrawl Dedede main, and a Brawl+ Dedede sub. Doing the CGs was not fun. They were boring.


Doing the IC's chaingrab, however is not. Your input actually matters. Don't lump the IC's CG in with the two idiot proof whorechains. They're much less alike than a lot of people seem to think. The only similarity is that they both involve more than one grab.


And with that, I'll leave you people to your arguing. >_>

Couldn't have said it better myself. You brought up some great points! I can confirm what you mention, from Falco's perspective... It was easy, it utterly destroyed certain characters. I could CG my friend's wolf, and fox with little to no effort, than spike them at the end. It was funny while it lasted, but terribly unfair, and easy. There was almost no room to mess up.

Anyway, thanks for your incite!

 

[Alopex]

See, Orca, if you had said that, I would have had no reason to argue with you in the first place.

The only thing I was arguing was over the fact that there seemed to be a double standard that you didn't mind fostering so long as the IC's were spared.

Seeing that you actually support CG's in all cases, I can't argue with you. Because that's your opinion and you apply equally, with only one standard.

In that case, there's nothing more I can do but agree to disagree until of us changes our mind. But that's not something I try to do... I just try to show people the holes in their own logic. If you're cool with all CG's, then there's no hole.

I may not see it the same way, but I won't deny you the ability to find CG's enjoyable.


EDIT:
@Tatsuman

Those are all valid points, but you're arguing over difficulty. That changes the argument a bit, so I first need something clarified:
If Dedede's and Falco's CG's were as hard to pull off as the IC's alternate throws, would you still be against them? Their fun levels would only change if you enjoy difficult button inputting, otherwise they'd still be just as boring. Would you still be against them then?


EDIT2:
@Kaiser
I wasn't mad, it's just that that was a point Almas covered already in the Brawlplusery thread and was pretty vehement about. So I wasn't in any way offended, but I just wanted to let you in the know that one coder (Almas) has already had his patience tried with people assuming the codes were easy to make. In fact, I mainly just paraphrased him in my response.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Im fine with chaingrabs that r difficult to implement and take some actual skill. Where as to my knowledge, the iceclimber's r the only ones that really take any skill at all. If its a chaingrab that's easy, and can rack up lots of damage with no real thought or training to pull off, then im against it (dedede, falco).

But o well. I really have no say in the matter when it comes to the final decision. Do as you wish.

 

[Alopex]

And if the Dedede and Falco CG's were to be reinstated but required the same kind of frame precision as the IC's to execute, how would you feel about them then, cAm?

And really, stop downplaying yourself. I have no more say in anything than you do. I'm just a vocal little muthafocka because I have a passion for debate.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

D
Not idiot proof = I don't have to arbitrarily spend hours in training mode to practice this just for the character to be usable.

There's nothing inherently superior about doing a more difficult technique, all that matters is effects and ease of landing the initial strike of the combo. The more difficult tech just wastes more of your life (which again, is a viable exchange for depth, but making playing it more difficult to do what you want to do with your character is inherently stupid).


The reason why nobody complains about Falco and DDD is that they're both amazing characters already, it's unnecessary, so nobody really minds a nerf as a side effect.

ICs however are already horrible. Take away their deathgrabs and infinite and you just make them worse, and that's a bad thing.

No, it means you actually have to practice it. Get the timing down. Then work around how to apply it in real matches. In most games, they call that getting better.
I'm not sure what your point is. Making the ICs chaingrab idiot proof as well would make no difference? You can't be making this point, I know you can't.

I'll have to disagree. More tech skill required=more room for error. This is why you don't see ICs sweeping tournaments with nothing but 0-Death chaingrabs done on all 3 stocks.
They aren't easy. They take work, and even with all of that work you can still screw up.
Different timing for different character sizes, different timing for higher damage/launch speed, and keeping Nana close which is a battle in itself more often than not.

Sure the super high level pros won't mess up often, but it's at least possible.


I honestly wouldn't call Dedede amazing, but he's 100x more fun to play now, so I'll accept the nerf with open arms.


Did I make the point that I wanted their grab gone? I was defending it, in case you didn't notice. >________>


@Alopex:
It's not the button input in itself, it's just the feeling that you actually have to work for the damage you are being granted. Like a normal combo, but with grabs. This makes it much more deadly of course.

And I know this is a hypothetical question, but it's impossible to make Dedede and Falco's chaingrabs that hard. They have to perfectly space the B*tchClimber, and they've got to be the most retardedly inconstant AI I've ever seen. Sometimes she'll save you with an fsmash or a grab when the MainClimber has already dedicated to an action and is about to be punished, and sometimes she'll fastfall past the edge, then try to use her nonexistent UpB to get back.

But no, I would not mind them in the slightest if they took that much skill to actually pull off. They wouldn't be idiot proof. You would be able to actually screw up from time to time.

 

[cAm8ooo]

If they was as precise and difficult as ic's then they would be fine with me. I'm not picking who gets to keep their CG's based off character. I could care less who it is, as long as it is difficult to implement. As long as it takes skill then i consider it fair game. This being said, if IC's chaingrab took no skill, i would say get rid of it.

And no, i wasn't implying you had any say in it. I dont even know who all is in the SBR+ but whoever it is, im referring to them.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I need that Captain Picard facepalm ASCII.

I got an infraction for posting that very facepalm. Yes, it was worth it.

I see Link and Ganon taking a nose dive from being terrible to worse than terrible. Not even a name could describe how bad they might become.

You have to be joking. With all the attention Link and Gannon are getting at this point in time? Seriously, the fact that you could say something like that and even then not give any constructive input for the characters is just insulting.

The reason why nobody complains about Falco and DDD is that they're both amazing characters already, it's unnecessary, so nobody really minds a nerf as a side effect.

For the love of God, this. I just don't know what to tell you if you can't see that DDD and Falco are still good. They have tons of tools still at their disposal.

The only CGs I have issue with are those that are infinite, and I think most would agree. From now on, let's be clear of what we are really discussing, the infinite or the CG itself? For the record, I don't support infinites in any way, shape or form. Now that's a problem, because ICs can infinite. I don't support it, plain and simple. If there is any way to preserve IC chaingrabs as non-infinite, that would be by and far the best possible solution.

It's exactly the compromise Alo and I came to with Bowser when we gave him back the nerfed version of the grab release. We could do the same for Falco and DDD, but it's clearly not necessary. What was clearly necessary was that Bowser needed something, and we responded. Do Falco and DDD need something? My argument is no, and I'm prepared to back it up. Would ICs need something if their CG was gone? I don't play ICs, so I couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it would be a complete shame to take away something so utterly unique to any character. A compromise needs to be found. Can we focus our energy on this?

 

[Alopex]

@Alopex:
It's not the button input in itself, it's just the feeling that you actually have to work for the damage you are being granted. Like a normal combo, but with grabs. This makes it much more deadly of course.

And I know this is a hypothetical question, but it's impossible to make Dedede and Falco's chaingrabs that hard. They have to perfectly space the B*tchClimber, and they've got to be the most retardedly inconstant AI I've ever seen. Sometimes she'll save you with an fsmash or a grab when the MainClimber has already dedicated to an action and is about to be punished, and sometimes she'll fastfall past the edge, then try to use her nonexistent UpB to get back.

But no, I would not mind them in the slightest if they took that much skill to actually pull off. They wouldn't be idiot proof. You would be able to actually screw up from time to time.

Well, then, Tatsuman, your argument is not with me. You're arguing entirely from a difficulty skill/standpoint. From that standpoint, a lot of things would be balanced differently.
Thing is, there are those here which don't think difficulty should be a factor in balancing due to the fact that, as you mentioned, even the most difficult things will eventually become clockwork to a pro.

Myself, I don't really have a stance on that. You are, however, applying your logic (the logic of removing idiot proofing) to every scenario, so you don't have any double standards in your logic. Which means you'd need to debate this with someone who actually has formed an opinion on how much exactly difficulty should be a balancing factor. Someone like Cape, perhaps.

And no, i wasn't implying you had any say in it. I dont even know who all is in the SBR+ but whoever it is, im referring to them.

You make them sound like Big Brother... I'm starting to freak out.


@Sketch
I dunno, I think Dedede is somewhat lacking. Not TERRIBLY lacking like Yoshi, but lacking. I mean, his grab is his biggest asset, but more specifically it's his shieldgrab, because he's a defensive character.
With Brawl+'s speed, Dedede can't keep up the offensive grabbing too well. With shieldstun now his shieldgrab also isn't what it used to be. And he can be comboed too easily due to his size and his fall speed. The only time I'm comfortable as Dedede now is when the character is off the stage, because Dedede still has a great edge game.
But, on the ground, I dunno... I think he could use... something... I dunno what, but maybe it's the faster jabs Cape suggested. Maybe a more useful Dsmash...
Oh! His DownB still needs work. It's still a terrible move no one really uses. Maybe that's what I feel is lacking.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The problem with breaking the ICs' infinite is that I really don't see any way to do it. If they can grab after another grab with no restrictions, then we have an infinite.

If we take away the ability to grab throw to throw, then we have no chaingrab, sans maybe the dthrow on the bigger characters, but that only works until about 50% at most.

Except on Bowser. The Climbers **** him with that.

@Alopex:
Wasn't really arguing in the first place. Just pointing out that the ICs' is not even in the same league as the Dedede's chaingrab because of it's difficulty and the obvious way to stop it from happening (see: NanaSnipe). Lumping them together is not a viable argument because they are inherently different, as well as belonging to inherently different characters.

A lot of people were making the point that if one CG was removed, they all should be. This is simply not the case.

Also, less lag at the end of the Jet Hammer would be great fun. xD

 

[cAm8ooo]

You make them sound like Big Brother... I'm starting to freak out.

shhhh... fool. They could be watchin right.....now

Spoiler

runs and hides

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, it means you actually have to practice it. Get the timing down. Then work around how to apply it in real matches. In most games, they call that getting better.
I'm not sure what your point is. Making the ICs chaingrab idiot proof as well would make no difference? You can't be making this point, I know you can't.

For the top of the metagame, no. Relevant tech skills are messed up in such low percents it's negligible.

At lower levels of the metagame, however, yes it would make a difference. It makes lower skill levels more reflective of the top of the metagame minus what's actually separates different player skills. The higher abilities such as spacing, mindgames, and understanding how to apply a character's abilities.

Tech skill is just rote practice that becomes effectively irrelevant at the top of the metagame because the seperation is so tiny.

All that more tech skill does at the end of the day is contribute more to the mental blocks that a player has when he reaches the plateau where he's learned all relevant ATs and provide entry barriers.

I'll have to disagree. More tech skill required=more room for error. This is why you don't see ICs sweeping tournaments with nothing but 0-Death chaingrabs done on all 3 stocks.
They aren't easy. They take work, and even with all of that work you can still screw up.
Different timing for different character sizes, different timing for higher damage/launch speed, and keeping Nana close which is a battle in itself more often than not.


Sure the super high level pros won't mess up often, but it's at least possible.

LOL

ICs don't sweep tournaments because they suck as characters. They lack the grab range and set-ups to consistently make use of their ability to 0-death the entire cast.

If ICs had DDD's grab range, they would be sweeping tournament after tournament, regardless of difficulty.


That said, recognize the difference between the types of difficulty. Tech skill required refers to ease of EXECUTION, in other words, once you've reached the point where the tech is inescapable, how difficult is it to perform. That's tech skill.


Keeping nana close, that's ease of application, which decides how powerful a tech is, even if you've perfected a technique, if your opponent never presents you with an opportunity to use it, it's useless.


The game would be better if their throws precisely replicated their 0-deaths in an idiot-proof manner.

I honestly wouldn't call Dedede amazing, but he's 100x more fun to play now, so I'll accept the nerf with open arms.

He's still good, dthrow leads to techchase, which is still powerful, and his moveset is good.

Did I make the point that I wanted their grab gone? I was defending it, in case you didn't notice. >________>

You misunderstand, I was explaining why people would scream about IC's deathgrabs, because they already suck. Same reason people don't want Ganondorf's auto-canceling gone.

It's not the button input in itself, it's just the feeling that you actually have to work for the damage you are being granted. Like a normal combo, but with grabs. This makes it much more deadly of course.

Why should we arbitrarily add difficulty to the game just so you can feel like you did work?

The only CGs I have issue with are those that are infinite, and I think most would agree. From now on, let's be clear of what we are really discussing, the infinite or the CG itself? For the record, I don't support infinites in any way, shape or form. Now that's a problem, because ICs can infinite. I don't support it, plain and simple. If there is any way to preserve IC chaingrabs as non-infinite, that would be by and far the best possible solution.

In regards to the infinite I'd support replicating it, I guess a running f-throw/b-throw chain that combos to fair with up-throw always killing off the top would replicate it precisely, because it does exactly that already, except you can do it infinitely, and it wastes hours of your life to learn.

 

[Alopex]

ICs don't sweep tournaments because they suck as characters.

Isn't that... a little harsh? I mean, they're C tier, where Pikachu is. And we've all seen Pikachu own tournaments (who else but Anther). And if The Character Rankings here are to be taken seriously (and they are), then they're doing very well for themselves.

So... I think you're... underestimating them...


EDIT:

@Alopex:
Wasn't really arguing in the first place. Just pointing out that the ICs' is not even in the same league as the Dedede's chaingrab because of it's difficulty and the obvious way to stop it from happening (see: NanaSnipe). Lumping them together is not a viable argument because they are inherently different, as well as belonging to inherently different characters.

A lot of people were making the point that if one CG was removed, they all should be. This is simply not the case.

Also, less lag at the end of the Jet Hammer would be great fun. xD

But see, that argument hinges on the notion that difficulty of execution should play a large role in game balancing. Which not everyone agrees with.

Like I said, I don't have a stance on it yet, so I can't discuss that with you.

I do my arguments just based on the results. I look at everything under the ideal circumstances because that way you balance from a max, so you guarantee that none of your changes become overpowered. Under that kind of analysis, Dedede and IC's can lumped together as having a technique which produces similar results under ideal circumstances.

What you do is use difficulty to set the bar lower, judging things by what's probable over what's possible. We do those things differently, so it's hard to compare our stances. On one hand, your method takes better consideration of what we are likely to see in practice, on the other hand my method accounts for the possibility that another M2K Robot decides to take up Brawl+. I don't like disregarding the extreme because that leaves overlooked the possibility that someone will master them and cause issues.

 

[The Cape]

So, Dedede is still viable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWN0JvrwYdo&feature=channel

vBrawl "combo" video. This stuff is actually possible now, makes me want to play him again.

Faster jab could help him out a bit, and I would like to see his "WD" a bit easier to do.

Something we could maybe do is lower the knockback of his U throw a bit to give him more options out of it?

He has D throw for tech chases, U throw for combos and setups (and maybe a fast faller CG) and he has forward and back throws to get people off the stage.

Or we can just make his forward B throw Waddle Doos and Gordos only.

 

[cAm8ooo]

i feel the same way Cape. I actually like him better as a character now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i think DDD is cool for now. we should probably just look into characters we feel are really in the ****s right now and worry about those who are questionable later... and uh.. get the codeset working :/

 

[adumbrodeus]

Isn't that... a little harsh? I mean, they're C tier, where Pikachu is. And we've all seen Pikachu own tournaments (who else but Anther). And if The Character Rankings here are to be taken seriously (and they are), then they're doing very well for themselves.

So... I think you're... underestimating them...

I've got a very narrow view of viability (not quite as narrow as AlphaZealot's views in regards to melee), but minus occasional blips, MK and Snake are so much better then the rest of the characters in this enviroment that Falco and DDD only really edge into viability.


Notice the context the rest of the paragraph explained what I meant by that. I was explicitly talking about them sucking as characters in terms of ability to make use of their 0-death.


That is totally true, they have very poor grab range, lack good set-ups, and it's very easy to disrupt with things like separating the ICs.

 

[Blank Mauser]

So, Dedede is still viable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWN0JvrwYdo&feature=channel

vBrawl "combo" video. This stuff is actually possible now, makes me want to play him again.

Faster jab could help him out a bit, and I would like to see his "WD" a bit easier to do.

Something we could maybe do is lower the knockback of his U throw a bit to give him more options out of it?

He has D throw for tech chases, U throw for combos and setups (and maybe a fast faller CG) and he has forward and back throws to get people off the stage.

Or we can just make his forward B throw Waddle Doos and Gordos only.

I like these ideas. Dthrow is kind of easy to tech though, but yeah Uthrow follow-ups would be nice. And I always thought regular waddles were pretty useless, though they have set up for some pretty nice fairs with me lately.

And nice you got Co18's vid lol.

 

[Alopex]

Waddle Doos and Gordos only would be soooooo sexy. Still, I can see how that might be less than fair. Instead, couldn't we just up the chances of the Doos and Gordos? Make them come out more often, but still retain the Dee to keep KingD from controlling the stage with a semi sentient projectile that walks around and shoots electricity at you.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Those things are so easy to knock off though lol. Either way, could you imagine using Waddle Doos to edgeguard? Lol impractical but would be funny.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The problem with breaking the ICs' infinite is that I really don't see any way to do it.

Someone came up with the idea to shorten the number of inputs it takes to mash out of their grab. We don't know if this is possible, and might not prove viable, but it's a thought.

If Nana's grab is possible to disable, perhaps there is some sort of timer we could implement that disables her grab after, let's say, 7 seconds after the first grab? Maybe would could instead force an automatic grab break after 7 seconds? That theory has holes in it too, but with more thought it could be possible.

How about the stale move system? Obviously the game keeps track of up to 9 or so consecutive moves. Would it be possible to trigger an auto grab-break if and only if there are a certain number of grabs in the queue? Yes, that still leaves room for ICs to pummel, or use CGs with an aerial in between. AFAIK only 1 aerial can occur between each grab, so that can possibly be worked around. If pummels are thrown into the mix, we could either treat pummels as part of the move limit, or hope that pummeling leaves enough time for you to mash out on your own (until, of course, you are too damaged to break, at which point your mortality is probably viable).

That's all I can come up with for now, but I'll keep brainstormin'

Waddle Doos and Gordos only would be soooooo sexy. Still, I can see how that might be less than fair. Instead, couldn't we just up the chances of the Doos and Gordos? Make them come out more often, but still retain the Dee to keep KingD from controlling the stage with a semi sentient projectile that walks around and shoots electricity at you.

Maybe make Waddles take multiple hits to kill? That would give DDD more incentive to throw two and leave em, rather than spam them repeatedly since they die easily anyway. Having a two Waddle army on screen at all times would actually be a viable DDD strat

I don't think DDD needs anything at the moment, though.

 

[SketchHurricane]

el double

10whoops

 

[cAm8ooo]

lol. I posted the SAME exact idea earlier as a compromise if we MUST change them. I didnt think about the timer tho. Nice extra touch

 

[Alopex]

cAm did mention it and I did tell him at the time that the task would be a pretty sizable undertaking if it's even possible, so I guess I'll repeat that here.

The system you're suggesting Sketch, though it looks promising in theory, the only one I see actually working out in terms of coding is the one where decay queue is used to register the number of grabs and then incite a grab break.

And even then, that sounds like it would take some pretty darn complex coding. I mean, the decay queue system doesn't cause any direct action on the game, creating a responsive system like that would be... well... a Phantom Wings-esque task.

I don't even know if it'll be worth the lines it might take up...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I already gave my views for changing ICs. If we want to hard-code an end to it (instead of using "cannot throw at or above 300%") we should make it effectively the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ICs are currently able to infinite to a percentage where up-smash kills automatically and/or do a chaingrab to the edge where they can throw to fair which is auto-death.


So, let's preserve that, upthrow always kills off the top, and fthrow and dthrow chains with dashgrab but does some obscenely large amount of damage so the ending fair always kills.

If for whatever reason the changes to the game results in ICs being overpowered, we can remove this for balance's sake.


Remember, this is only what they do already, without the possibility of infinite stalling.

Edit: Obviously require Nana to be present in order to do this, and sufficiently near.

 

[The Cape]

I posted the Waddle Doo and Gordo idea as a joke.

I really think if we reduced the knockback on his U throw and gave him a faster jab he would be TONS better.

 

[Alopex]

Why do you toy with me so, Cape? I just want to throw Gordos around all day.

Hmm... Uthrow to Utilt? Delicious.

 

[shanus]

I'm still not back yet from my weekend trip so I'm fairly out of the loop on the most recent opinions on things. In terms of speeds, were people more satisfied with Beta2 or Beta3? Not in terms of optimizations, just speed.

 

[poklin]

I was for 2.

 

[Green'n'Clean]

Wall Of Text From Seemingly Unimportant Nobody

I think the pro-inescapablezerotodeath people need to understand one incredibly important thing about games. Not actually getting to play them isn't very fun.
Basically, playing the ICs are always fun as it is a very unique match-up, as it revolves around keeping Nana and Popo separated. However, if you actually get grabbed, you suddenly have no saying in what's going to happen in the game for quite some time. This while the other player completely and utterly ***** you.
Not actually getting to affect the course of the game is complete ****ing bull****. If you think that's what a game should be about, you have no business playing games at all.

I think everyone can agree that we should avoid this kind of non-gameplay if we can, but in this particular case there are some pronounced downsides to removing ICs infinites.
As we are all aware of, they aren't really the best characters in the game, and thus shouldn't receive any nerfs. Removing the infinites would undoubtedly make the ICs worse, but this argument can be worked around by buffing them in other aspects of their game.
If you think this would make the ICs play less unique, there is still desynching, which many argues would lead to IC players playing even more uniquely than before (presently they don't actually have to incorporate it into their playstyles).

This scenario can only play out if we find a good way to remove all infinites and keep all CGs which you can escape from by DI/teching. How we go around buffing the ICs aren't all that important.

A good thing to remember is that both sides are actually making valid claims, so lets sum 'em up along with some opinions (mine).

Pro-Infinte

"Don't fix what ain't broken!"

I must argue against this point, since a game without infinites would always be a better one. Just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it's not undesirable.
Thus the argument is invalid.


The ICs doesn't need any nerfs!

This statement is unanimously agreed upon, but if the sum of the buffs and nerfs the ICs receives in the final version of brawl+ is in favor of the ICs, they aren't actually being nerfed.
Thus the argument is invalid.


"Infinites are hard, ICs mess up really often!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu-9fm5GM-E
If someone can master that, someone is going to master CGing. I think we've debated technical skill enough considering the l-cancel debate.



"Pro-Fun"

"Infinites are boring."

I explained my stance on this in the wall of text above. Seriously, they are.




I'd like to end this in favor of the "Pro-Fun" people, simply because I think they're right. Makes sense, amirite?
However, it all comes down to if we can construct a code that removes what we want removed without affecting any other aspects of the ICs gameplay. If we can't remove it with hacks, I'd suggest we leave it untouched. It will still be boring and un-fun to face IC mains, but I can guarantee they won't dominate tournaments.



TL;DR


Infinites are gay.

 

[matt4300]

I'm still not back yet from my weekend trip so I'm fairly out of the loop on the most recent opinions on things. In terms of speeds, were people more satisfied with Beta2 or Beta3? Not in terms of optimizations, just speed.

I haven't seen much talk of the betas.Pretty much just a bunch of argueing over CG XD now we are talking about buffing D3 for some reason

I can't speak for every one, but I personally think 2 had more speed, and 3 was better overall.

 

[CountKaiser]

It'd be hard to achieve a balance between beta 2 and 3. 2 had speed, while 3 had the off-the-ledge game tat everyone missed. Chances are a working momentum code along with the friction mod would work wonders for beta 3.

 

[Alopex]

I haven't seen much talk of the betas.Pretty much just a bunch of argueing over CG XD now we are talking about buffing D3 for some reason

Well the people in the Brawlplusery need these kinds of arguments so that they can make their decisions after careful consideration of all the points presented.

The Betas get lots of feedback on their own thread, and this has been historically more devoted to the discussion of possible changes and the generation of codes to affect them.

And we were talking about Dedede buffs because he's a Brawl+ character that needs just a minimal amount of buffing but is overlooked simply due to his vBrawl tier placement even though his Brawl+ counterpart is nowhere near that level.
Essentially, it's easier to adjust the characters which only need small adjustments, so might as well get them out of the way already. One less thing to worry about.


Shanus, from what I've been reading, the consensus seems to be that gravity is better in Beta 3 with the exception of some characters that still feel too floaty (I believe Sheik specifically was mentioned), but the overall speed of the gameplay was better in Beta 2.
As you know, I still haven't tested 3 and beyond, so I'm just reporting on what I've read.

 

[grim mouser]

O.O Friction code is out now? Which characters are being changed/what values are being tested?