COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Jiangjunizzy]

Well, yeah, the quote I quoted came from you Jiang... I... quoted it for that reason...

ya i don't read entire posts sometimes

edit: alopex i am on and off the computer all day today. so my apologies, i honestly didn't know bowser had a chain grab, the only thing i was aware of regarding bowser's grab game were his grab releases.

anyway, i am all for getting rid of 0-death chain grabs or falco/ddd esque chain grabs if that is the case.

 

[Alopex]

ya i don't read entire posts sometimes

I need that Captain Picard facepalm ASCII.

 

[Dan_X]

@Shanus
I sent Almas the PM.

@cAm8ooo

The IC CG's is a can of worms so huge that I'm afraid to go near it for fear of brain damage.

I mean, here's the thing:

The IC's didn't have true CG's in Melee. They had the Wobbling, which was an infinite, and they had things like Dair CG which could be escaped with SmashDI. And they were still high tier.
So, are CG's the way the IC's have *always* played? No. They only play like that in Brawl.
Is a grab heavy game the way they have *always* played? Yes.


So let's examine what that means.

The IC's CG comes in the form of a unique element: Alternate throws.
Unlike Melee's "CG's", which were completely escapable via SmashDI, Brawl's Alternate throws are entirely inescapable. The grabbed character remains completely and entirely at the mercy of the grabber. They can literally do nothing unless the IC player messes up. They have no form of defense.

That's... pretty powerful.

But it does have a drawback, and that drawback is that the Alternate throws are gone once Nana is gone.
Not only that, but the IC's also lose another important aspect of their game without Nana: Desynchs.

Desynchs have always been part of how the IC's play. Since Melee, it was a key cornerstone. But in Brawl, the Alternate throw is so prevalent that most vBrawl IC players just ignore the desynchs in favor of the grabs. I find that disheartening.

Either way, if you're asking me whether or not a support the 0-deaths they have right now, the answer is a resounding no.

I like the concept of Alternate throws, and I like Nana Fair CG's. But I think the former needs to be toned down and the latter needs to be escapable via proper DI like it was in Melee, like Captain Falcon's current CGs are in Brawl+.

How to tone down Alternate throws? I do not know. I don't think there will be a way to fix this with code. I think the only way is to do it via tournament rules. No more than 4 consecutive throws... etc.

Going after Nana in order to avoid Alternate throws is a fun part of that match-up. But being 0-death'd is not fun at all. To retain the dynamic of the first sentence, I think all that can be done is the enforcement of rules to prevent 0-deaths but preserve alternate throws.

I think this is a rediculous idea, no offense. The ICs have it hard against many characters. Spacing is their greatest enemy. All the enemy has to do is separate Nana from Popo, and being an IC main, trust me, that's not hard for the enemy to do. Once this has happened, it's generally easy for Nana to be killed off. In addition, the CGs take a ton of practice, and are very easy to mess up. It's utterly rediculous to change these. In a perfect world they'd always be implemented perfectly, but we don't live in a perfect world. What's their best map? Flat maps, like FD, Smashville, and Battle Field.. With that said there are plenty of good counterpicks to ICs. Seriously. They haven't gotten worlds better in Brawl+, generally they still rely on their CGs to be effective. I don't think this is a good idea. Removing their chaingrabs will ruin them, in addition, it's something unique to them and let's them stand out from the rest of the cast. If their CGs were so flawless, wouldn't more people main them? Wouldn't they sweep the tourneys? As I've said, they haven't gotten much better in Brawl+, so if they weren't sweeping tourneys in VB, then they won't be now. Don't fix was isn't broken, seriously.

Can I just say this is really stupid? Do you have any idea what you're saying? You're saying that in order to prevent brokenness, we need to put an arbitrary limit on the chaingrab via tournament rules, when there has yet to be any kind of precedent for doing so. I would like you to especially note the term "arbitrary." All that this will do is cause a player to perform the number of alt throws that they're allowed to, perform one regular chaingrab the opponent has a chance of escaping, and then go back to alternate throws. Ok, so you succeeded in stopping the player from just using alt throws to get the kill, but... now what? How many alt throws is "too much?" What makes 5 alt throws so much more broken than 4 alt throws? What makes 6 more broken than 5? 7 than 6? 8 than 7? There's no real way to draw a line here without it being completely arbitrary, which means the only things you can do as far as "rules" go are to either 1) allow it completely, or 2) ban it completely. We can take the "ban" option one step further by hacking it out of the game, but...

Why is it so broken that they get to have a 0-death from a grab? ICs had wobbling in melee, which was also entirely unescapable and required absolutely zero thought once you had successfully set it up. And this was not considered ban worthy by most players. Wobbling past 250% was considered stalling, which takes care of the problem of "what happens if they just keep doing it?" The fact of the matter is that the ICs aren't particularly special in brawl+ with the exception of their grab tricks. How do you defend against getting killed instantly against an IC player from a grab? Don't. Get. Grabbed. It isn't that hard to just space well and to focus on keeping popo and nana separated. Nana's AI (still) sucks, so she's not that hard to gimp.

If the ICs were good enough with their CG to win every tournament, then we might need to look at toning them down. But they weren't top tier in melee. They aren't top tier in VB. And I highly doubt that they'll be top tier in B+.

Thank you. Exactly. You've expressed much of what I was saying. There is no need to "tweak" them, I think we truly are beginning to take this project too far. I spent way too long practicing the chaingrabs for them to be removed from the character. Despite my immense training, I mess up all the time... if I'm not frame perfect at times the enemy can break out. Seriously, this would be a huge nerf to the ICs. Why don't you ask the ICs mains if thye want this done, go ask Hylian. I think not. The ICs are the most technical intensive of most every character in the game, please don't ruin them.

 

[Alopex]

Christ almighty, Orca, you posted that after I already responded to it because you were typing it while I responded, right? Not because you chose to just ignore my responses in order to remake a point I already addressed?

EDIT: Here you go.

If I had a firm stance, do you think I would have preceded my post with the sentence that I used?
Your rant opened up the exact can of worms I knew would be opened. As I know will always be opened when this topic comes up.
I'm not going to argue this because it's AS pointless as arguing about Wobbling.

Wobbling was legal, so yes the Alternate Throws could also be legal. That doesn't make either of them fun. At all. Overswarm refers to Wobbling as "Fun Canceling" and I totally agree. From my point of view, I thought we were using Brawl+ to make Brawl more fun. From my point of view, watching your character get thrown around like a ragdoll without you being able to do anything but watch is not fun. That same stance applies to all CG's. I don't care if they're by Bowser or by Dedede. I don't see how they add any sort of fun to the game.

I don't see how it's fun to be helpless.

 

[Dan_X]

Christ almighty, Orca, you posted that after I already responded to it because you were typing it while I responded, right? Not because you chose to just ignore my responses in order to remake a point I already addressed?

Umm.. I'm confused. what? You responded to it?

EDIT:

That's part of the consequence of being grabbed by them, that's what makes them unique. You can break from the grab, from the chain grab, if it's not executed quickly enough, which is easy to do. To that end, it's REALLY hard to do. Wobbling wasn't too hard to do, in fact it was pretty easy. You act as though it's broken, when it's not. I don't see the point of fixing something that isn't broken. The ICs have plenty going against them as is, trust me. There's no reason to nerf them.

 

[jmlee337]

Igglyboo just posted a friction mod on GScentral

Friction Modifier[Igglyboo]
04520100 XXXXXXXX
C2857658 00000006
9421FF80 BC410008
3EC08052 C3360100
C023D134 3AC02EF0
7C00B000 40820008
EC21C82A B8410008
38210080 00000000

Adds a XXXXXXXX(floating point) to the default friction(more friction = less sliding).
Here are a few examples of some default frictions.

Luigi: 0.022000
Captain Falcon: 0.050000
Bowser: 0.057700
Kirby: 0.049300

 

[Alopex]

Really? I act as though it's broken? Was that at all in my response? Can you quote my response as specifically saying that my problem with it is its "brokenness"? Cause I don't see it. What I do see is me stating that it's not fun in the slightest and I thought Brawl+'s goal was to make Brawl more fun.

Just tell me you think it's fun to be helpless (you said it yourself, you're not the one getting out of it, the IC's are the ones making the mistake; you're doing nothing more than just watching and praying - that's helplessness).

 

[Dan_X]

Igglyboo just posted a friction mod on GScentral

sick! That's just what we needed! OMG Now we can bring back WDing cuz we can control the distance / sliding.

 

[cAm8ooo]

noooooooooooooooo!!!!!! wd=bad. Not this again.

 

[kupo15]

friction code is out

 

[Dan_X]

Really? I act as though it's broken? Was that at all in my response? Can you quote my response as specifically saying that my problem with it is its "brokenness"? Cause I don't see it. What I do see is me stating that it's not fun in the slightest and I thought Brawl+'s goal was to make Brawl more fun.

Just tell me you think it's fun to be helpless (you said it yourself, you're not the one getting out of it, the IC's are the ones making the mistake; you're doing nothing more than just watching and praying - that's helplessness).

You didn't have to say "broken." I simply meant it in the sense that don't fix something that's not broken. Is it winning every tournament? No. Will it ever win every tournament, unlikely. If it does, sure, let's visit it. There's no reason to address something that doesn't need to be addressed. It will ruin the ICs. Don't get Grabbed. This isn't VB. It's harder to land the grabs now as it is, with shield stun and all. Come on man, focus your attention on something worth while, or nothing at all.

 

[Alopex]

Holy crap, Orca, quit strawmanning and dancing around the point I'm making.

I'm not going to repeat myself here because I've stated it twice now and you've yet to actually respond to it, choosing instead to bring up points I never made and then refuting them as if I made them. The very definition of straw man.

 

[Zelc]

Alopex isn't saying anything about whether the CGs are broken. He's saying they're not fun to play against.

 

[Dan_X]

Holy crap, Orca, quit strawmanning and dancing around the point I'm making.

I'm not going to repeat myself here because I've stated it twice now and you've yet to actually respond to it, choosing instead to bring up points I never made and then refuting them as if I made them. The very definition of straw man.

Whoa, calm down now. You seem to look past my points to. You want to "fix" something that doesn't need fixing. If you "fix "this, I will stop playing the character, my main.

"Wobbling was legal, so yes the Alternate Throws could also be legal. That doesn't make either of them fun. At all."

Wobbling is also much easier to do. Alternating throws are incredibly skill intensive, no need to punish for tons and tons of practice, even then it's too easy to mess up.

"Overswarm refers to Wobbling as "Fun Canceling" and I totally agree."

I don't care about Overswarm. If we're going the route of name dropping, Hylian would hate an IC change like this too. Heck, all of the ICs mainers would. It would hurt them too much, it's not easy to do and one should be rewarded for that kind of skill.

"From my point of view, I thought we were using Brawl+ to make Brawl more fun."

Here's your problem. "From my point of view." That's fine, I don't care about your point of view, I really don't. Do you main the ICs? Do you know how much this will affect them? Apparently not?

"From my point of view, watching your character get thrown around like a ragdoll without you being able to do anything but watch is not fun."

Fine, don't get grabbed. There is so much more added to every character now, with added hitstun, shield stun, that it'll be even easier to separate the ICs, kill off Nana, etc. Not to mention it's already much harder for them to land a grab. It was handed to them before because shield grabbing was so overpowered, now it's not nearly as effective, as such they won't be getting those freebie grabs. Half of their game is landing the grab. Their grab range isn't even that good.

"That same stance applies to all CG's. I don't care if they're by Bowser or by Dedede. I don't see how they add any sort of fun to the game."

Hey guess what, I agree with you. Chaingrabs that take little to no skill should be taken out. My other main is Falco, I wasn't bothered at all by the loss of his CG. It's really no problem. It was easy to do before, incredibly reliable. DDD was rediculous before, and it took no skill to pull off his CGs. The same can be said with most any characters CGs, they're all easy. This however is NOT the case with the ICs, and you're looking past that.

"I don't see how it's fun to be helpless."

*sigh.* As I've said, you're not all that helpless. You can break out of it, if it's not PERFECTLY timed... it's impossible to consistantly be perfect.

Why don't you go "fix" something else.

Alopex isn't saying anything about whether the CGs are broken. He's saying they're not fun to play against.

I don't care if it's "fun or not fun." I don't think playing against Peach is fun, but what am I to do? I don't like playing against Snake either, I think his snakedashing is unintended and "sucks the fun from the game" should we change that too?

Seriously guys. Get a grip.

 

[Swordplay]

After reading much of this stuff, It seems like brawl + will even make the character imbalance worse.

I see Link and Ganon taking a nose dive from being terrible to worse than terrible. Not even a name could describe how bad they might become.

On the other hand, I see many top tiers only getting better.

 

[Alopex]

Wow, Orca. You amaze me. You make so many straw man arguments in one post and don't even realize it. Tip: don't become a lawyer.

Also,
"You can break out of it, if it's not PERFECTLY timed... it's impossible to consistantly be perfect."

Like you say, you can only break out of it if THEY make a mistake. Nothing YOU do will change the outcome.

Here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/powerless
Oh, and check out one of it's synonym which starts with "h": http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/powerless

Helplessness is not fun.

Thanks for making my points for me.

 

[Toadster5]

After reading much of this stuff, It seems like brawl + will even make the character imbalance worse.

I see Link and Ganon taking a nose dive from being terrible to worse than terrible. Not even a name could describe how bad they might become.

On the other hand, I see many top tiers only getting better.

Have you actually played it?

 

[cAm8ooo]

uh..... have you played as link yet? He seems much better. How can we possibly change a character to make him or her more balanced and in effect cause the opposite effect? It's somewhat a insult on our intelligence. Even if we do make a character too good or too bad, we can just change them again. That's what makes brawl+ great, its adaptable. To say we can never achieve better balance then vB is ********. In fact just by our mk nerfs, we've ALREADY made the game more balanced.

 

[Dan_X]

Wow, Orca. You amaze me. You make so many straw man arguments in one post and don't even realize it. Tip: don't become a lawyer.

Also,
"You can break out of it, if it's not PERFECTLY timed... it's impossible to consistantly be perfect."

You can only break out of it if THEY make a mistake. Nothing YOU do will change the outcome.

Here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/powerless
Oh, and check out one of it's synonym's which starts with "h": http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/powerless

Thanks for making my points for me.

I forgot, you're so far above me in life that you're utterly right no matter what right? My say has no weigh in anything, right? People like you disgust me. You're right, you're powerless if the IC is PERFECT. Perhaps you haven't come to the realization that we as people are not perfect, as such that negates all that you speak of; powerless.

Seriously. Do you even know? Do you main ICs?

I really can't stand ignorant people, who have to have their way. You want to mess with a character that few think needs messing with. Why? Like I said, feel free to ask us IC mainers... we won't agree to it, and for good reason.

 

[Teronist09]

I really can't stand ignorant people, who have to have their way. You want to mess with a character that few think needs messing with. Why? Like I said, feel free to ask us IC mainers... we won't agree to it, and for good reason.

Then you can just play vB if they're nerfed via code (or even disable whatever code is used to nerf their infinite), or play brawl+ with people who share your mindset.

 

[Dan_X]

Then you can just play vB if they're nerfed via code (or even disable whatever code is used to nerf their infinite), or play brawl+ with people who share your mindset.

Most people agree that the ICs CGs are justified because they are so difficult to pull off. So thank you, I will play the way I want to.

 

[Alopex]

Heh, Orca, you're lucky most forum goers only read or respond to posts that directly address them. Because anyone that reads our exchange is likely to see you under a light you don't want to be viewed in.

I'll just leave you with some advice which you probably won't take: Straw man arguments always make you look bad.

Also, weasel words are notoriously frowned upon, too.

 

[Dan_X]

Heh, Orca, you're lucky most forum goers only read or respond to posts that directly address them. Because anyone that reads our exchange is likely to see you under a light you don't want to be viewed in.

I'll just leave you with some advice which you probably won't take: Straw man arguments always make you look bad.

Also, weasel words are notoriously frowned upon, too.

Either way, you too have bounced around every point I made. You want to change it just because of a feeling you have. Not because it legitimately needs to be changed. It's not worthy of changing because it's not a problem. Not only that, but it's still really hard to pull off.

 

[B.W.]

Actually, in most Melee touraments wobbling was banned in singles matches, but it was allowed in doubles thanks to having a partner that could save your *** from it.. From my experience anyway.

It wasn't completely banned from all tournaments, but more of the organizer's choice of whether to ban it or not.

 

[Alopex]

Hey, did you know that Brawl didn't need to be changed but people felt like changing it and began changing it because they wanted to make the game more fun?


Hey, did you know that people don't refute points that have absolutely nothing to do with the case in point? In American law, those points are met with the Objection of Irrelevancy/Immateriality and are then discarded so that the court can focus on the point in question.

EDIT: It might look something like this, but probably a lot less cool.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2968967

 

[matt4300]

Heh, Orca, you're lucky most forum goers only read or respond to posts that directly address them. Because anyone that reads our exchange is likely to see you under a light you don't want to be viewed in.

I'll just leave you with some advice which you probably won't take: Straw man arguments always make you look bad.

Also, weasel words are notoriously frowned upon, too.

Actually, I can see both of your points, and I dont think hes makeing a "Straw man" argument...

You say that the chain grab is a cheap exploit that drains the fun out of a match, and I totally agree with you.

On the other hand I also agree with Orca takeing away the Cgs for Ic completly kills them for the people that main them. Who wants to take away marths Fair or jigglys rest.. Both of these feel more broken than the Ic Cg for the simple fact they are stupid easy to do, and have nearly the same affect. They are what makes there chars, and taking that away is like a big **** you to the people that main them.

Though the needless insults were lame, and do make you look bad. You do to much of that, and people stop careing what you say...

 

[CountKaiser]

IC's CG is an infinite, sans the player's mistakes, and thus should probably be looked at.

Though, from what Orca is saying, without the CG, IC is pretty much useless. If that is the case, what else do they have other than the CG? Wouldn't desync help them at all?

EDIT: As for insults, that's pretty much an indicator that you lost an argument and don't wish to concede it.

 

[Alopex]

I didn't say it was a "cheap exploit" Matt. Please quote me.

I said it's not fun. Like a campy defensive Smash Bros game with tripping.

 

[Dan_X]

On the other hand I also agree with Orca takeing away the Cgs for Ic completly kills them for the people that main them. Who wants to take away marths Fair or jigglys rest.. Both of these feel more broken than the Ic Cg for the simple fact they are stupid easy to do, and have nearly the same affect. They are what makes there chars, and taking that away is like a big **** you to the people that main them.:

This. As for any crude remarks of mine, I was heated, and annoyed at how Alopex was treating the manner; how he was treating me. It seems he's one of those people who's always right, and we've all come across the sort in life. It's simply frustrating.

Hey, did you know that people don't refute points that have absolutely nothing to do with the case in point? In American law, those points are met with the Objection of Irrelevancy/Immateriality and are then discarded so that the court can focus on the point in question.

Hey, did you know that this is not American law, that this is instead the internet? Stop trying to sound smart, I'm not impressed.

 

[CountKaiser]

This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't make the IC so completely useless. Is there any wa we can buff them to justify the loss of chaingrabbing?

Orca, you main IC. What could be done to help them?

 

[Dan_X]

I'd rather nothing be done. Pure and simple. I'd rather NOTHING be changed as nothing is a problem. That's the huge point here. The day that ICs reach God tier (with VB MK) and sweep every tournament then we should consider changing their grab game. However, that will NOT happen. They aren't THAT GOOD. Other characters gain far more than ICs do in Brawl+, so IC's have really difficult match ups. It's more than just buffing a move, it's the fact that you have to manage two characters at once. It's the fact that Nana's AI so so stupid sometimes, that she often finds a way to kill herself, or you, especially whilst attempting recovery.

Sure the ICs have pros, and their CGs are definatley some of them, but believe me, they also have a ton of cons.

I'm begging that you guys handle this realistically. It's not a problem, so don't fix it. Our goal in Brawl+ should be to to improve the game (which we have), balance characters (which we're doing), and the balances we make to those characters should be by and large justified. If we're going to change something drastic, it should only be on the basis that it's a prevalent problem. MK is a problem, and we're striving to fix him. ICs have not changed as much from VB to Brawl+ as the rest of the cast has, they aren't going to be winning tournaments any more frequently now than back during VB, so why change them?

If the change is justifiable, sure, this change simply isn't.

 

[matt4300]

I didn't say it was a "cheap exploit" Matt. Please quote me.

I said it's not fun. Like a campy defensive Smash Bros game with tripping.

Sorry bout that... got lazy. Heh I know the word "cheap" is a taboo here guess I should have said unfair expoit?

Agin I see your point, but I think its more unfun to fight a marth or diddy with my link or bowser than it is to fight the easily dismantled Cgs of the ice climbers.. Infact I would beat the top tiers with a nerf stick so hard they would rue the day they every 3 stocked my bowser, But its not about whats fun to me, the tier whores, and or people that just like playing a top tier char for the char would fight me to the death before there beloved combo beasts where nerfed to samuses level.

Which is exactly what Orca is doing now. Unless it is put into the offical code with more reason than not being fun, im wont use that code when playing in local tourneys.

In other words top tier **** fests are more of a fun problem than the ic Cg... and I dont see us nerfing them (besides meta)

 

[Alopex]

Hey, did you know that American law is founded on the principles of logic and the principles of logic are applicable anywhere and to anyone who is capable of understanding it? Common sense isn't being smart, it's just common sense. I should hope that common sense doesn't impress you...

Hey, I noticed you completely skipped over the other part of that post because you had no response to it. Good times. Picking your battles, picking your battles...

Well, since it's clear that you will never actually respond to the points I make, I'm going to abandon this tango and let someone else take over if anyone will even bother to after seeing how you handle debates...

Peace.


EDIT: More reason than not being fun, Matt? Would you play Brawl+ if it was the most balanced fighter in the world but was ten times more boring than Vanilla Brawl?
The only reason this project exists is because the people here don't think vBrawl is fun...
Discard that, and you discard the essence of this project.

 

[Dan_X]

Sorry bout that... got lazy. Heh I know the word "cheap" is a taboo here guess I should have said unfair expoit?

Agin I see your point, but I think its more unfun to fight a marth or diddy with my link or bowser than it is to fight the easily dismantled Cgs of the ice climbers.. Infact I would beat the top tiers with a nerf stick so hard they would rue the day they every 3 stocked my bowser, But its not about whats fun to me, the tier whores, and or people that just like playing a top tier char for the char would fight me to the death before there beloved combo beasts where nerfed to samuses level.

Which is exactly what Orca is doing now. Unless it is put into the offical code with more reason than not being fun, im wont use that code when playing in local tourneys.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[cobaltblue]

I'd rather nothing be done. Pure and simple. I'd rather NOTHING be changed as nothing is a problem. That's the huge point here. The day that ICs reach God tier (with VB MK) and sweep every tournament then we should consider changing their grab game. However, that will NOT happen. They aren't THAT GOOD. Other characters gain far more than ICs do in Brawl+, so IC's have really difficult match ups. It's more than just buffing a move, it's the fact that you have to manage two characters at once. It's the fact that Nana's AI so so stupid sometimes, that she often finds a way to kill herself, or you, especially whilst attempting recovery.

Sure the ICs have pros, and their CGs are definatley some of them, but believe me, they also have a ton of cons.

I'm begging that you guys handle this realistically. It's not a problem, so don't fix it. Our goal in Brawl+ should be to to improve the game (which we have), balance characters (which we're doing), and the balances we make to those characters should be by and large justified. If we're going to change something drastic, it should only be on the basis that it's a prevalent problem. MK is a problem, and we're striving to fix him. ICs have not changed as much from VB to Brawl+ as the rest of the cast has, they aren't going to be winning tournaments any more frequently now than back during VB, so why change them?

If the change is justifiable, sure, this change simply isn't.

If I'm following the arguement correctly that is Aplox's point. The fact the IC's have to rely on a mechanic banned in a lot of areas is broken. If we're to fix characters and make them somewhat decent then we need to be willing to explore what would make them better. Although I still think character balance has ways to go I can see his point. It makes sense if we have the tools to buff their damage, recovery,speed, etc.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Like he has stated plenty of times before. He never said it was broken. He just said it was not fun.

 

[Dan_X]

If we're to fix characters and make them somewhat decent then we need to be willing to explore what would make them better.

The ICs are decent as they are. They're not low tier, because with skill they can be quite a powerful weapon. It takes quite a bit of skill though. There's no need to address their grab game.

Like he has stated plenty of times before. He never said it was broken. He just said it was not fun.

Why does it matter if something is "fun or not?" Like I've stated, I don't think it's fun to fight Snake. It's so incredibly difficult to beat Snake with ICs, even with CGs, and his snakedashing absolutely destroys them. In addition, it separates them. Just because I deem that Snake isn't fun, and I'm sure many can agree with me that his snakedashing is annoying, doesn't mean we should remove snakedahsing, does it? Just because I feel that its not fun should we change it?

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok time to settle this.

You're both acting like children. OK? Both of you need to take a chill pill, sit back, and try to understand where the frick the other person is coming from.

Orca, there was no good reason you had to resort to insults. You also never did respond to alopex's point about the chain throw making you helpless. He would not have kept badgering you over it otherwise. Had you said "that doesn't matter and this is why" then perhaps it would have been better received. You made valid points about the removal of IC's alt throws, but you failed to keep them within the context of the argument.

On the other hand, Alopex, you shouldn't just disregard relevant points, even if they aren't in direct response to what you said. Yes, I said relevant points. "Fun" is highly subjective. What may not be fun for you could be very fun for the IC main. This is why you can't argue something based solely upon the "fun" factor. Yes, that can be your ultimate reason (it's the ultimate reason for any of this), but when making something more "fun" creates new problems, you need to come up with ways to fix those problems, or just abandon the idea. So far, everything we've done to this game has been done while looking out for things that hurt certain characters. Just flat out removing the CGs of the ICs could ruin the character, which would be against the point of this project.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Why does it matter if something is "fun or not?" Like I've stated, I don't think it's fun to fight Snake. It's so incredibly difficult to beat Snake with ICs, even with CGs, and his snakedashing absolutely destroys them. In addition, it separates them. Just because I deem that Snake isn't fun, and I'm sure many can agree with me that his snakedashing is annoying, doesn't mean we should remove snakedahsing, does it? Just because I feel that its not fun should we change it?

Sry, i should have made myself clearer. I was stating his argument, not mine. I dont believe they should lose their cg's either. I personally dont believe they should receive a nerf OR a buff. They are about the same as kirby who i believe is fine as well. Let's just leave them alone.

I was only stating my idea's for people who DO want the CG's to be completely gone as an alternate idea if we have to change them.

 

[Dan_X]

Ok time to settle this.

You're both acting like children. OK? Both of you need to take a chill pill, sit back, and try to understand where the frick the other person is coming from.

Orca, there was no good reason you had to resort to insults. You also never did respond to alopex's point about the chain throw making you helpless. He would not have kept badgering you over it otherwise. Had you said "that doesn't matter and this is why" then perhaps it would have been better received. You made valid points about the removal of IC's alt throws, but you failed to keep them within the context of the argument.

On the other hand, Alopex, you shouldn't just disregard relevant points, even if they aren't in direct response to what you said. Yes, I said relevant points. "Fun" is highly subjective. What may not be fun for you could be very fun for the IC main. This is why you can't argue something based solely upon the "fun" factor. Yes, that can be your ultimate reason (it's the ultimate reason for any of this), but when making something more "fun" creates new problems, you need to come up with ways to fix those problems, or just abandon the idea. So far, everything we've done to this game has been done while looking out for things that hurt certain characters. Just flat out removing the CGs of the ICs could ruin the character, which would be against the point of this project.

Thanks for clearing this up a bit. I do apologize for the insults Alopex. I'd just rather we kept things as is, at least for the ICs. I'm sorry if I didn't respond in a fashion that you had expected, or wanted.

You're right leaf, we were both acting like children (at the very least I'll admit I was).

Sry, i should have made myself clearer. I was stating his argument, not mine. I dont believe they should lose their cg's either. I personally dont believe they should receive a nerf OR a buff. They are about the same as kirby who i believe is fine as well. Let's just leave them alone.

I was only stating my idea's for people who DO want the CG's to be completely gone as an alternate idea if we have to change them.

Oh okay, sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the rectification!