wazgood
Smash Ace
lol i just noticed the OP was posted on my birthday haha
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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
The Txt file for the newest codeset is missing, and the GCT file for it is missing the autosweetspot code...
Anyone have the newest codeset in text form?
Anyone have the newest codeset in text form?
Eaode
Smash Champion
its in the Brawlplusery thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220363
grim mouser
Smash Journeyman
Almas, any idea what is causing the freezes for some people? I want to use 3.1, but I'd prefer to leave out whatever is causing the freeze.
Eaode
Smash Champion
the text is in the second post >_> just C&P it into notepad or something.
wazgood
Smash Ace
I have an idea for another code:
Charging some B-moves in midair( such as fludd and lucario's neutralB) can only be canceled by an airdodge. I say they should be canceled like sheik's needles, so they don't accidentally kill themselves if they do it off the edge.
Charging some B-moves in midair( such as fludd and lucario's neutralB) can only be canceled by an airdodge. I say they should be canceled like sheik's needles, so they don't accidentally kill themselves if they do it off the edge.
Ok, so,
Bowser Math Time!
(Bowser Frame Data)
Bowser's dash grab comes out on frame 10. To my knowledge, it is the dash grab that is used for his chain releases.
Shield comes out on frame 1. Equally, then, you can start a spotdodge on frame 1, but the laggiest spotdodge won't have invincibility frames until frame 3.
So, if we compound that, it would take 33 frames to perform a spotdodge from the moment you get ground released.
Bowser can dash grab you after 10 frames, so compounded it means that it would take 30 frames for Bowser to perform a dash grab from the moment he ground releases a character.
So, in order to remove Bowser's chain release completely, he needs to have a grab release animation length of 23 frames. This way, Bowser's dash grab will always come out on frame 33, just like the laggiest spotdodge (ironically, Bowser himself is the one who has that spotdodge...). This means no character will ever be able to get chain released.
So, this means Bowser would have 7-10 frames of leeway to work with, depending on whether or not his follow-up attack can be shielded or not and also depending on which character you're up against.
Remembering that the opponent's shield will come out on frame 31, what follow-ups does Bowser have with 7-10 frames of leeway?
- Jab (Hits on frame 6, will hit on frame 29. Guaranteed against all characters pending range.)
- Utilt (Hits on frame 8, will hit on frame 31. Might get shielded.)
- SideB (Grabs on frame 8, will grab on frame 31. Guaranteed against all characters.)
- UpB (Hits on frame 6, will hit on frame 29. Should be guaranteed pending range.)
- Meanwhile, if your opponent is slow or doesn't know the match-up, you could Ftilt, Dtilt, Dash attack, or Dash regrab. Those all come out on frame 33. One would hope that your opponent wouldn't let you dash regrab after the first... but if they do, they deserve it. That'll learn 'em! Like DI'ing Falcon's throws to prevent chain grabs.
- You could also play mindgames on your opponent, because if you expect a spotdodge will take place after the release, just use neutral B instead. It'll be out before their spotdodge ends and you can hold it to punish them when their invincibility frames are over. Not bad, right?
- A DownB could also be pulled off, circumstances permitting. It'll hit on frame 34, so it's a risky maneuver, but it could work if you predict your opponent will shield and jump out of the shield upon release.
So, yeah. That's what I got.
What do people think? What do the Bowser mainers think about their options?
23 is as low as Bowser's grab break can get without permitting the chain regrab. So there's no point in asking for it to be any lower than that. I think there are plenty of options left to Bowser with a 23 grab break. And given how he can't combo out of any of them and none of them are reliable kill moves, I don't see this as being any different than the Falcon throws > stuff that SketchHurricane mentioned.
Bowser Math Time!
(Bowser Frame Data)
Bowser's dash grab comes out on frame 10. To my knowledge, it is the dash grab that is used for his chain releases.
Shield comes out on frame 1. Equally, then, you can start a spotdodge on frame 1, but the laggiest spotdodge won't have invincibility frames until frame 3.
So, if we compound that, it would take 33 frames to perform a spotdodge from the moment you get ground released.
Bowser can dash grab you after 10 frames, so compounded it means that it would take 30 frames for Bowser to perform a dash grab from the moment he ground releases a character.
So, in order to remove Bowser's chain release completely, he needs to have a grab release animation length of 23 frames. This way, Bowser's dash grab will always come out on frame 33, just like the laggiest spotdodge (ironically, Bowser himself is the one who has that spotdodge...). This means no character will ever be able to get chain released.
So, this means Bowser would have 7-10 frames of leeway to work with, depending on whether or not his follow-up attack can be shielded or not and also depending on which character you're up against.
Remembering that the opponent's shield will come out on frame 31, what follow-ups does Bowser have with 7-10 frames of leeway?
- Jab (Hits on frame 6, will hit on frame 29. Guaranteed against all characters pending range.)
- Utilt (Hits on frame 8, will hit on frame 31. Might get shielded.)
- SideB (Grabs on frame 8, will grab on frame 31. Guaranteed against all characters.)
- UpB (Hits on frame 6, will hit on frame 29. Should be guaranteed pending range.)
- Meanwhile, if your opponent is slow or doesn't know the match-up, you could Ftilt, Dtilt, Dash attack, or Dash regrab. Those all come out on frame 33. One would hope that your opponent wouldn't let you dash regrab after the first... but if they do, they deserve it. That'll learn 'em! Like DI'ing Falcon's throws to prevent chain grabs.
- You could also play mindgames on your opponent, because if you expect a spotdodge will take place after the release, just use neutral B instead. It'll be out before their spotdodge ends and you can hold it to punish them when their invincibility frames are over. Not bad, right?
- A DownB could also be pulled off, circumstances permitting. It'll hit on frame 34, so it's a risky maneuver, but it could work if you predict your opponent will shield and jump out of the shield upon release.
So, yeah. That's what I got.
What do people think? What do the Bowser mainers think about their options?
23 is as low as Bowser's grab break can get without permitting the chain regrab. So there's no point in asking for it to be any lower than that. I think there are plenty of options left to Bowser with a 23 grab break. And given how he can't combo out of any of them and none of them are reliable kill moves, I don't see this as being any different than the Falcon throws > stuff that SketchHurricane mentioned.
Eaode
Smash Champion
I thought bowser used Air releases, no?
Revven
FrankerZ
No, he uses ground releases (see: Sliq).
Eaode
Smash Champion
Ah I see. Cuz the only grab release I've ever seen of bowser was air release -> Fair lol
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Bowser did both, but air releases were the most effective (he could up smash Wario and MK lol).
I guess Bowser can't have everything from his vBrawl self lol.
The Cape
Smash Master
I can throw together a post that links to the important threads. Then have you lock and sticky it, Would that work?
The Cape
Smash Master
Um dude. Pika D throw for one. Do your research before you start throwing faux facts around.
Back when Hylian Nightmare came out, I asked Germ "Why do you guys grab so much?" His respose was: "Its guarenteed damage."
Grabs are infact the only damage in the game thats basically guaranteed. You grab someone, you either get a grab attack or a throw, which is free damage.
Also, I like the 23 frame idea. Please do that, thanks for compromising.
<3 Sketch Hurricane for Post #6906
Pika's Dthrow chaingrab is still around?
Hmm... shouldn't be hard to fix that with the Frame Mod code, to be honest. And if I'm right and someone objects to getting rid of a chain grab... I'll go play Jump Ultimate Stars for the rest of my days.
Yes, a grab is guaranteed damage in the sense that you can throw or pummel, and pummels can force grab releases and even destale moves (in vBrawl). But what I was specifically referring to was the train of thought that even a grab release should be guaranteed damage simply because it needs a grab to take place in the first place.
Grabs guaranteed damage? Yes, unless you're oblivious to the fact that you can pummel the opponent.
Grab releases be guaranteed damage simply via grab association? No.
Hmm... shouldn't be hard to fix that with the Frame Mod code, to be honest. And if I'm right and someone objects to getting rid of a chain grab... I'll go play Jump Ultimate Stars for the rest of my days.
Yes, a grab is guaranteed damage in the sense that you can throw or pummel, and pummels can force grab releases and even destale moves (in vBrawl). But what I was specifically referring to was the train of thought that even a grab release should be guaranteed damage simply because it needs a grab to take place in the first place.
Grabs guaranteed damage? Yes, unless you're oblivious to the fact that you can pummel the opponent.
Grab releases be guaranteed damage simply via grab association? No.
zxeon
Smash Lord
Lol, Bowser's Ftilt comes out on frame 10? That sucks.
The Cape
Smash Master
Bowser I like (its unique and gives him more options) Your 23 frame idea is a good way to do it.
Pika D throw is already on the list (near the top) of things to fix.
And JUS is crazy stupid.
Pika D throw is already on the list (near the top) of things to fix.
And JUS is crazy stupid.
But I can't get enough.
I'll start doing Pika Dthrow testing stuff using the Frame Mod on Monday when I get my Wiimotes back.
Slowing down his Dthrow animation a slight bit should fix that. Problem is that I don't have the frame values in order to do the math. Would anyone (possibly Makkun since I've noticed you're collecting frame data?) be willing to get me the frame data for Pikachu's Dthrow animation?
EDIT: Though thinking again, I could just do it based on percentile multipliers... I don't really need the hard numbers. Though they are always nice to have.
Just refresh my mind here, Cape, Pika's Fthrow chain grabs were removed, right? It's just the Dthrow one that remained?
I should also ask about Lucario's SideB chain grab. I could never pull it off even in vBrawl, so I was never able to test its existence in Brawl+. Is it still there?
kupo15
Smash Hero
Alopex, dunno if you saw but there is a debug code to go frame by frame
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
I don't think Lucario's Side-B was ever a real chaingrab. Maybe it was legit on some characters, but it was mostly just people not getting out of it right most the times I saw/had it happen.
No I saw kupo, it's just that I won't have my Wiimotes back until Monday night. I was just hoping to get the math done before then so I could immediately get to plugging in values and testing. Which is why I asked.
While I'm talking to you kupo, your "grab release fix" lines in the OP here aren't accurate. You should replace them with the lines I posted a bit ago. And how do you feel about the Bowser compromise I presented?
While I'm talking to you kupo, your "grab release fix" lines in the OP here aren't accurate. You should replace them with the lines I posted a bit ago. And how do you feel about the Bowser compromise I presented?
kupo15
Smash Hero
thats right. Forgot your w/o brawl+. I actually haven't really been keeping up with the grab release discussions.
Which code is the right one?
Which code is the right one?
The Cape
Smash Master
Lucario side B works to like 25% as does Pika F throw.
For his D throw, I would like to see it have the same scaling it has, but have a higher base knockback.
That way it can still be used for combos and setups, but it cant CG all day.
For his D throw, I would like to see it have the same scaling it has, but have a higher base knockback.
That way it can still be used for combos and setups, but it cant CG all day.
Here you go Kupo:
I did not add the ALC and Lagless Ledges and other portions because those who want it can add them in as they wish in between the first two lines. Feel free to add them in for your OP post if you want, though. I know I at least would use them, heh.
If you do that, remember to change the first line according to your total lines.
That code still has Bowser with the 30 frame grab break, like everyone else. Once I get more feedback on the 23 frame proposition I made, I might modify it depending on the consensus.
@Cape
Assuming a knockback-altering code will be available anytime soon...
Slowing down the animation could serve as a band-aid until then. Slow it to the point where he can't regrab before the person is out of regrab range. Sometimes all it takes is 2 extra frames.
It won't diminish the thrown character's hitstun in any way, so regular follow-ups and combo would still be possible if the needed slow-down is small enough.
Just throwing that out there since it's the only thing that can actually be done with our current tools.
Code:
Grab Release Fixes using Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9400 00000038
0B00003B 3F2AAAAA
1E00003B 3F777777
0A000040 3FAAAAAA
1A000040 3FAAAAAA
01000040 3F2AAAAA
25000041 3FD11111
FF000041 3FD55555If you do that, remember to change the first line according to your total lines.
That code still has Bowser with the 30 frame grab break, like everyone else. Once I get more feedback on the 23 frame proposition I made, I might modify it depending on the consensus.
@Cape
Assuming a knockback-altering code will be available anytime soon...
Slowing down the animation could serve as a band-aid until then. Slow it to the point where he can't regrab before the person is out of regrab range. Sometimes all it takes is 2 extra frames.
It won't diminish the thrown character's hitstun in any way, so regular follow-ups and combo would still be possible if the needed slow-down is small enough.
Just throwing that out there since it's the only thing that can actually be done with our current tools.
kupo15
Smash Hero
so I replace the green text with that code minus the first line?
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
WOW. Really impressed you went to length to break it down like that. Gold star, my friend.
Taking a look, I'm not sure that sideB should be guaranteed. Playing with your numbers a bit, let's see what a 25 frame release would do.
- jab/upB hits on 31, can be shielded but not dodged
- sideB hits on 33, can be dodged but NOT shielded since it's a grab
With this setting, we basically create a mix-up where sideB lands if they shield, but jab/upB will start to hit when they learn to dodge. In this case, nothing is guarenteed unless correctly mindgamed!
This is all assuming a spot dodge on 33 though. From reading your post it must be true that there are faster spot dodges. Do you know the fastest? Worst case scenario is that the fasted spot dodge comes out on 31 just like the shield, in which case you still have some options to punish the end of the spot dodge, then switch back to sideB when they learn to shield.
Edit
Looking at G&W, his dodge invincibility lasts from frames 2-20. He'll have an easier time dodging the sideB, but his dodge puts his cooldown on frames 21-25. Bowser's fsmash hits on 26 and 28. This means that with Bowser at a 5 frame advantage on grab release, he can land an instantly executed fsmash to catch G&W after the dodge! Fun with numbers
So what do you think? 23 for some human error cusion in Bowsers favor, or 25 for frame perfect rewarded grab releases? In other words, your idea is awesome, thanks for the research!
Dan_X
Smash Lord
hmm. Hopefully we hear back soon.I mentioned:
80% instead of 100%
No walk off momentum
No specials momentum
Fixes on chars who don't have it
No word back yet.
I hope we have a friction mod also
Osi
Smash Ace
I agree with the 80... maybe even 70 or 90 depending on the effects (this one will need a ton of testing). I agree with no specials momentum too.
On the walk off... well I'm actually a fan of it. This leads to a much different edge game, and you can do the short walk off easily by dash canceling and just tilting forward to walk off. This would add a ton of variety to run offs being able to control a far or short run off. At 70 or 80% I don't thing it will be a issue leading to many SDs, so I'd like to have some test time on 70 or 80 with walk offs still set on. I simply think keeping this aspect would add another level f control over the character at high levels of play.
zxeon
Smash Lord
I still have an issue with the fact that you accelerate instead of slowing down gradually as you hold a direction in midair. I liked the speed of the first code. It just seemed too fast because of the acceleration.
B.W.
Smash Champion
I actually like it. Kinda gives it more of a classic Nintendo platformer feeling. Where if you want to slow down in the air, you'd have to hold back. It's not that big a problem in my eyes, you just need to learn a little more aerial control.
The only problem I have with the momentum code is the walk off momentum screwing up instant edgehogs and ledge spikes.
Jump momentum only would be sexy.
Jump momentum only would be sexy.
zxeon
Smash Lord
How does walk off momentum mess with ledge spikes?
Run-off momentum carries the faster characters too far away from the ledge to actually hit a character recovering close to the stage.
Hell, Ness' didn't even work without a well timed fastfall.
MuBa
Smash Lord
grim mouser
Smash Journeyman
Almas is a mod now? Cool. =)
Glad that the grab release stuff is getting broken down so carefully.
Glad that the grab release stuff is getting broken down so carefully.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I'd really go with the 23 frames. Even with 1 frame buffer in place, you're still asking for frame perfection with no visual cues! I mean, it's one thing if you can clearly anticipate the small window with some kind of easily recognizable situation (like a projectile coming at you at a steady pace), but trying to time something based on the ending animation of Bowser's grab release? (notice that you can't time it based on your opponent's grab release because then you'd be too late).
And I don't think a guaranteed side B is that bad...because you have to be frame perfect to get the side B guaranteed and the person with the lower percent has control over the direction (so grab release to Bowsercide is hardly practical.).
I mean really, he was getting guaranteed Bowser bombs and up smashes (on air releases) before, side B's not that big a deal.