COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Dark Sonic]

Fair enough. It just seems like if we're going to take the time to really balance him anyway, and especially if we can give him an ODJC, it seems lazy to leave a counter-intuitive mechanic (no matter how unique) in there.

It doesn't seem that counter intuitive to me at least. Metaknight get's air release and flies through the air, Yoshi goes to hit him before he regains his composure from flying in the air like that.

And really, there are a lot of counter intuitive things in smash. Second jumps? Most up Bs? Invincible moves? Bubble shields? Most glitches are counter intuitive (obviously since they're glitches). Some exploits are counter intuitive too.

Something being counter intuitive does not mean that it's inherently "bad." And these things should be judged on a case by case basis based on their effects on gameplay. Grab releases are completely broken....on Ness, Lucas, and Wario. Everywhere else they're the same as any other chainthrow or throw combo, and really they should be treated as such.

 

[kupo15]

And really, there are a lot of counter intuitive things in smash. Second jumps? Most up Bs? Invincible moves? Bubble shields? Most glitches are counter intuitive (obviously since they're glitches). Some exploits are counter intuitive too.

I think some people are reading too much into the what is happening and trying to make too much sense out of a video game and using that as their argument... ;\

But w/e its not a huge problem for me yet.

 

[Shell]

And really, there are a lot of counter intuitive things in smash. Second jumps? Most up Bs? Invincible moves? Bubble shields? Most glitches are counter intuitive (obviously since they're glitches). Some exploits are counter intuitive too.

By counter intuitive I was referring to being punished for doing something successful (break out).

With that said, though, I understand that as much as I may believe my own theory-crafting, I can't truly separate ideals from practical effects on character balance. Therefore, I suppose it would be okay to leave Bowser and Yoshi's release combos / setups with the same logic as leaving Ice Climber's chain grabs. If it doesn't break the character as a whole, it's not a big deal.

Edit: Lulz at posting same segment of quote at same time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think some people are reading too much into the what is happening and trying to make too much sense out of a video game and using that as their argument... ;\

Umm...he said that it was counter intuitive. I said that being counter intuitive doesn't mean anything.

@Shell-I suppose, but at the same time, it's not really you doing something successful, since you're opponent is the one who has control over whether or not they throw you. More accurately, it's them screwing up. In the case of Bowser/Yoshi/ect, you're not really doing anything right by breaking out of the grab, as the grabee really has no right answer, only the possibility that the grabber may end up wrong. Yoshi and Bowser still have this possibility to end up wrong, but it's mearly one step later (rather than screwing up the grab itself, it's screwing up the grab release follow-up).

 

[kupo15]

Umm...he said that it was counter intuitive. I said that being counter intuitive doesn't mean anything.
.

Oh ok got it

 

[Alopex]

Here we go.

Complete Grab Release Fix. This makes 30 frames the universal value for ALL ground releases, air releases, and grabber grab breaks.


Grab Release Fixes using Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]

065A9400 00000038
0B00003B 3F2AAAAA // 30 frame Bowser grab break (was 20)
1E00003B 3F777777 // 30 frame Squirtle grab break (was 29)
0A000040 3FAAAAAA // 30 frame Ness ground release (was 40)
1A000040 3FAAAAAA // 30 frame Lucas ground release (was 40)
01000040 3F2AAAAA // 30 frame DK ground release (was 20)
25000041 3FD11111 // 30 frame Jigglypuff air release (was 49)
FF000041 3FD55555 // 30 frame air release for rest of the cast (was 50)


I did not add the ALC and Lagless Ledges portion because those who want it can add them in as they wish in between the first two lines.
If you do that, remember to change the first line according to your total lines.


If someone could test this for me, that would be great. Particularly, I'm interested in knowing if the air releases are all working as intended, especially for Jigglypuff. I can't test since my Wiimotes were lent away while I have midterms...

 

[Shell]

I see what you're saying. I guess it really is a matter of perspective. You've succeeded in getting me from firm disagreement to, "I don't even know what to think."

I'm glad we had this discussion. If I at least caused you to critically question your own view point and reaffirm it, that's good.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Grab releases that rely on jumps don't matter because Any stage with platforms > Grab Releases. Its not a big deal if Yoshi gets a little more advantage on FD, even then the opponent could just stage strike/ban it. Fixing grab releases on Lucas and Ness is fine, but jump grab releases aren't worth the lines Imo unless its the infinite on Wario. (Because it works just standing If I remember correctly)

 

[Alopex]

The air release fixes only take up 2 lines...

And could take up only 1 line if Jiggly were allowed to slide by...


Seriously, line space is no excuse.


How can anyone be against complete neutrality on grab releases?

 

[the_judge]

Would IC's still be able to alternate grabs upon release?
Just asking, really don't care if they can't.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How can anyone be against complete neutrality on grab releases?

Because the grab release system is not inherently broken (nor broken in practice in most cases) and some characters really do have better grab release combos than throws?

 

[kupo15]

Would IC's still be able to alternate grabs upon release?
Just asking, really don't care if they can't.

of course they would

Because the grab release system is not inherently broken (nor broken in practice in most cases) and some characters really do have better grab release combos than throws?

It may not be broken per say but imo its anti competitive for some characters to be able to exploit the system and others can not. For the same reason why DDD's CG and Falco's CG are considered "lame" so is this but obviously not to that extent. Whether you want to believe it or not, grab release combos are not suppose to be true combos. That goes against the concept of grab breaks. I'd rather have forced throws than inconsistent grab breaks and if we have a chance to fix a flaw in the games programming and chose not to, what does that say about us?

The NC melee players who ran the tourney begged us to get rid of grab release exploits and I'm sure they aren't the only ones who realize its not good for the game competitively.. I want this game to be about the better player has the most skill and not about being able to exploit the game better.

 

[The Cape]

Here we go.

Complete Grab Release Fix. This makes 30 frames the universal value for ALL ground releases, air releases, and grabber grab breaks.


Grab Release Fixes using Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]

065A9400 00000038
0B00003B 3F2AAAAA // 30 frame Bowser grab break (was 20)
1E00003B 3F777777 // 30 frame Squirtle grab break (was 29)
0A000040 3FAAAAAA // 30 frame Ness ground release (was 40)
1A000040 3FAAAAAA // 30 frame Lucas ground release (was 40)
01000040 3F2AAAAA // 30 frame DK ground release (was 20)
25000041 3FD11111 // 30 frame Jigglypuff air release (was 49)
FF000041 3FD55555 // 30 frame air release for rest of the cast (was 50)


I did not add the ALC and Lagless Ledges portion because those who want it can add them in as they wish in between the first two lines.
If you do that, remember to change the first line according to your total lines.


If someone could test this for me, that would be great. Particularly, I'm interested in knowing if the air releases are all working as intended, especially for Jigglypuff. I can't test since my Wiimotes were lent away while I have midterms...

Can you make the Bowser one 25 instead of 30? This still allows him some minor combos out of grab (which is good for him) without overpowering him.

 

[Alopex]

It is inherently broken in the ways I have already described previously: It makes a portion of the grab release outcome entirely independent of player skill or input.

The grab release should not be an offensive tool. The grab release is meant to give the grabee a chance to AVOID grab repercussions. It is not meant to inspire dread on them. Grabs should never be absolute. Not anymore. Not since Melee.

Grab releases should be used for positional advantage, not for damage advantage.

If you can then use that positional advantage to initiate a combo, then go for it. But in absolutely no way should a GRAB RELEASE, and inherently defensive mechanic, allow for guaranteed combo set ups.

I don't know if you guys know this, but grab releases CANNOT be DI'd. Unlike throws. So not even throws are guaranteed combo starters. Why should grab releases be?

And why should DK have the huge advantage of being capable of getting out of no-DI frames sooner than everyone else? Why should Yoshi be allowed to start his combos with no fear or thought as to their opponent's DI?
DI is more important than ever in Brawl+, yet we decide that in this case ignoring it is perfectly fine?

I need MookieRah here to help explain all this. People actually take him seriously and read his posts...


EDIT:

Can you make the Bowser one 25 instead of 30? This still allows him some minor combos out of grab (which is good for him) without overpowering him.

I know that the Brawlplusery is desperately trying to improve Bowser, but, really, inherent and automatic grab release advantages aren't the way to go.

Altering the knockback and damage of individual moves should become possible soon, and that should become the primary source for balance. I don't want to propagate the idea that grab release frames can be used to balance characters...

 

[Blank Mauser]

Bowser's evil grab release tricks are like the pinnacle of sadism in the metagame....yum.

Edit: I agree that even if we get rid of grab releases, positional release tricks should still be possible. AKA Grab release into klap trap.

 

[The Cape]

Grab release to Klap Trap will still exist.

As for Bowser I just dont think he its too good to allow Bowser to forward B or jab jab out of his grab.

Its just something fun and unique that he has. and not too overpowered

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Umm... is there any way I can get Kupo's codes from about... 1-2 weeks ago? I mean, is there an inventory where I can download the previous codes and not just the latest one? I basically forgot to record some replays and of course you need the same code that replay had to view it (without desynch).

At this point I believe I need Kupo's codes from Feb. 9th...

 

[Blank Mauser]

Grab release to Klap Trap will still exist.

As for Bowser I just dont think he its too good to allow Bowser to forward B or jab jab out of his grab.

Its just something fun and unique that he has. and not too overpowered

I think if he has enough time to Forward-B he'd have enough time to re-grab. Not sure, but I think in either case we should just speed up Bowser's Forward-B a little. It'd help his off-stage game and prevent him from just getting edgeguarded all day.

 

[Makkun]

I think if he has enough time to Forward-B he'd have enough time to re-grab. Not sure, but I think in either case we should just speed up Bowser's Forward-B a little. It'd help his off-stage game and prevent him from just getting edgeguarded all day.

... You just reminded me that I forgot to record the frame data for each character's running grabs. ;_;

 

[MuBa]

Bowser:

-Make his aerials faster
-Make his smash attacks faster
-Down B needs to start and end faster
-Boost his Up+B recovery

That should make him up to par with other characters.

 

[V-K]

Bowser:

-Make his aerials faster
-Make his smash attacks faster
-Down B needs to start and end faster
-Boost his Up+B recovery

That should make him up to par with other characters.

That would make him high tier lol.

 

[SketchHurricane]

That would make him high tier lol.

I agree. Bowser shouldn't be a fast character. The thick skin buff was a perfect way to preserve his style while buffing something that makes sense. Having said that, there are a few moves that could be sped up within reason. If something like fair could be isolated and sped up, that would help him a lot on the ground. Maybe give his upB some more height and/or speed. A bit more damage/knockback on a few moves? Speeding up the downB is also kind of interesting, and might actually create an anti-air for him (don't now what kind of priority it has on the way up, though). There's a lot we can do that would play to his strengths, though.

 

[Alopex]

"Bowser shouldn't be a fast character."

Bear with me, here: Why?

Because his weight lets him live long and he has hard-hitting attacks?

 

[MuBa]

"Bowser shouldn't be a fast character."

Bear with me, here: Why?

Because his weight lets him live long and he has hard-hitting attacks?

Probably because speed deviates from his "big and strong" type.


Have you guys ever looked at Sentinel in MvC2? That thing is freaking humongous and strong yet he was the 2nd or 3rd most mobile character in the game.


I know some characters have better range than others but we really should strive on making character balance. And since we've sped up the game significantly, I believe Bowser deserves a speed buff too. The fastest characters are going to be top tier material.

 

[V-K]

I have no problem with a super Bowser, I like playing bowser. lol

 

[Alopex]

I'm all for Bowser having faster, stronger attacks. And he's not the only character that could use a buff to his specials.

Capt Falcon in Beta 3 lives longer (due to his grav mods) and hits harder and faster than Bowser. Yet it's also perfectly OK that he also has godly speed and combo ability. Both characters have terrible priority. Given that, how can we justify keeping Bowser as terribly slow as he is?

 

[Deleted member]

random note: has anyone that plays other fighters noticed that in 9/10 games one of the best characters is always one of the fastest?
in the case of vB this is partly true (MK ofcourse) and in B+ this is a lot more evident, because now also fox, sonic, CF and kirby (semi fast) are reaching for the best spots.

/random

can anyone tell me why wario was so high on the vB tier list?

 

[Alopex]

Great recovery, heavy character, pseudo-chain down throw on certain characters, super armor Fsmash, BITE, godly air game.


EDIT:

Has anyone had the chance to test this out yet?

Proper Grab Release Fixes using Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]

065A9400 00000038
0B00003B 3F2AAAAA
1E00003B 3F777777
0A000040 3FAAAAAA
1A000040 3FAAAAAA
01000040 3F2AAAAA
25000041 3FD11111
FF000041 3FD55555

[I]Universal 30 frame value on ALL ground releases, air releases, and grab breaks.[/I]

I can't test it at the moment, but I'd love to know how's it's working out. Especially the air releases, with special attention to Jiggypuff's.

 

[MuBa]

can anyone tell me why wario was so high on the vB tier list?

It's because Wario has excellent aerial mobility. His fsmash has super armor. He can Wariocide. His recovery is above average.

The only thing that prevents him from going top in vBrawl are his lack of range and grab release ***** him.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Does using an exploit as a way to smooth over balancing a character seem a bit lazy to anyone else?

Come on guys, we can be a bit more creative than that. We've got so many tools at our disposal to make Bowser more viable, and the best we can come up with is making his grab idiot proof?

Give him a faster DownB, longer lasting Fire Breath, more comboable throws, speed up the UpB on the ground, a better recovery, or more control over Bowsercides even, but don't just leave a stupid exploit in the game because one or two characters would do better with it.


And I'll test it if you'd like, Alopex.

EDIT:
The code works fine. Ness can spotdodge well before Marth can regrab, and Jigglypuff's air release works fine, though it looks a bit odd and goes about a full jump's distance past the floating platform on Smashville after being released from the ground.

 

[Alopex]

Thanks, Tatsuman.

The main worry I had with Jiggs was that she is being affected by two lines in the code:

The 7th line gives her a 30 frame air release using her own multiplier since her natural air release lasts 49 frames.
The 8th line gives all characters the same multiplier need to get 30 frame air releases, since everyone besides Jiggs has a 50 frame air release.

So my hope was that the 7th line would allow Jiggs to be exempted from the 8th line since the 7th line would be read first and thus applied with priority (based on feedback I received).

Did you test the other air releases, like Wario or MK? If Jiggs is the only one that looks odd or goes farther than it should, then it might be due to some glitch from the code conflict.

If that's the case, see if this code alleviates it:

Proper Grab Release Fixes using Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]

065A9400 00000028
0B00003B 3F2AAAAA
0A000040 3FAAAAAA
1A000040 3FAAAAAA
01000040 3F2AAAAA
FF000041 3FD55555

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

It seems to be just the speed at which the animation is played that makes it look odd. I don't see it affecting game play in any way.

Wario's is faster, but doesn't look off.

Metaknight's however looks pretty weird. Again, it doesn't seem to affect game play at all, so it's no issue.


I've only had a small amount of time to play around with it, but so far it works perfectly.

 

[Almas]

You're right in thinking that specific stuff should be written before everyone stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

ah, that might explain some stuff

 

[The Cape]

Muba:
Sentinel was the best character in MvC. He had full stage combos for ****s sake.

We are reworking the Bowser Dont Care mod and that is really all he should need. He tanks better than anyone and it allows him to just smack people around all day. He does not need more speed as he is.

Go play Beta 3.1!

 

[Alopex]

Bowser does not need more speed... but... Falcon needed more survivability than Bowser? Cause that's what he got.

Making Bowser more tank like is all well and good but it'll do nothing to fix his REAL issue: killing.

Bowser's kill moves are slow and predictable. His best kill move is his Dtilt because it's the only kill move that's actually fast. Second best is Uair. Third best doesn't exist.

He could definitely stand to gain a little bit of speed on his Fair and Fsmash. It would definitely not be broken and would go a long way to make him more offensively viable.

Afterall, Cape, you were picking at straws with Bowser's grab release because it gave him offensive options... meaning you're fully aware that his biggest issue is there. So you should be aware of how a slight speed up of his attacks is more needed than just sheer damage negation.

 

[shanus]

Bowser does not need more speed... but... Falcon needed more survivability than Bowser? Cause that's what he got.

Making Bowser more tank like is all well and good but it'll do nothing to fix his REAL issue: killing.

Bowser's kill moves are slow and predictable. His best kill move is his Dtilt because it's the only kill move that's actually fast. Second best is Uair. Third best doesn't exist.

He could definitely stand to gain a little bit of speed on his Fair and Fsmash. It would definitely not be broken and would go a long way to make him more offensively viable.

Afterall, Cape, you were picking at straws with Bowser's grab release because it gave him offensive options... meaning you're fully aware that his biggest issue is there. So you should be aware of how a slight speed up of his attacks is more needed than just sheer damage negation.

Alopex, have you ever played against a really good bowser like DJ Nintendo or others? Cape also used to be an excellent bowser. Not like Gimpy or Nintendo, but up there. Bowser has excellent edgeguards and can always use the fortress.I don't think he really need any buffs in his killing department.

Also, one of his major problems was just living in general. Hopefully a newer version of Bowser Don't Care mod will be adjusted a bit better and all.

 

[Alopex]

You're talking about vBrawl, Shanus, where the game is super slow and super floaty and thus cause Bowsers attacks to actually be fast enough.

But Brawl+ is a different story. Everything gets an overall speed boost and the end result leaves Bowser feeling too slow for his own good, with his attacks no longer being effective enough. Isn't that why you guys are trying your best to fix him with things such as Thick Skin? Brawl+ Bowser isn't vBrawl Bowser, and Brawl+ Bowser could stand to gain some more reliable killing ability. Ever so slightly so.

 

[matt4300]

I'm all for Bowser having faster, stronger attacks. And he's not the only character that could use a buff to his specials.

Capt Falcon in Beta 3 lives longer (due to his grav mods) and hits harder and faster than Bowser. Yet it's also perfectly OK that he also has godly speed and combo ability. Both characters have terrible priority. Given that, how can we justify keeping Bowser as terribly slow as he is?

Ahmen... I posted this rant on the brawl + forums (before beta 3 came out)

"I really know how you feel man. Sometimes I feel like my please for char balance falls on deaf ears. I think just becuase Link or bowser has always been bad dosen't mean they have to be that way until the end of time. Like why does falcon need a faster falcon punch? why does shiek need a better fair? THERE AMAZING CHARS!!! Yet it's said that we should keep the chars crappy recovery or crappy shields because thats how its always been. This doesn't make the game more fun. I dont play link bowser and samus becuase there bad (compared to mk, snake, G&W, kirby, ect...) I play them because I love the way they play, and I love the chars themselves.

Marth has Nothing bad about him. Every attack is good. I could say the same for many other chars. So why do bad chars have to keep there ****ty moves and broken "techniques" just so they can be different? The answer is they don't.

No matter how much we buff bowsers abiltiy to take damage. He will still be out speeded and out comboed bye most of the chars,and Completely destroyed by the marths, G&W, and MKs of the game. What thats saying is if you play bowser your only option is to Get completely ***** until you get 1 good hit in, and continue like that until you MABYE win.
What happens when your fighting a char with a comboable spike? I'll tell you. you get ****ed, or ya get lucky. No amout of defense is gonna save you from a spike when you have a terrible recovery. Why is it so difficult to let him have Better kill moves. A better recovery AND make him an attack sponge? Snake has all of this! He will still have slow easily punished moves and die off the top quicker than the fast falling chars ( with the new fall speed code that is)

For yoshi why not give him better kill moves, a better recovery AND jump out of shield. This will not break him! He still probley won't be that good. He will still have a relatively bad recovery, a useless side B, and a mediocre projectile...

>_> I could go on but this is a long kinda pointless post, thats probley not gonna change anyones opinion. I know the majority of you play hightiers because you like the way they play. I'm sure all of you aren't tier whores, but think about it. Why should your char be better than mine when we can change that, and be on a more even plain?

Edit: I really dont want to hear the obligatory "get better" or "mabye you just suck" because you all know that the chars I main are some of the worst in the game.
and I'm not saying everyone is of this mentality, but I do hear these things alot, and I'm glad there are people like mookie rah and cape working on the buffs. "

 

[shanus]

Ahmen... I posted this rant on the brawl + forums (before beta 3 came out)

"I really know how you feel man. Sometimes I feel like my please for char balance falls on deaf ears. I think just becuase Link or bowser has always been bad dosen't mean they have to be that way until the end of time. Like why does falcon need a faster falcon punch? why does shiek need a better fair? THERE AMAZING CHARS!!! Yet it's said that we should keep the chars crappy recovery or crappy shields because thats how its always been. This doesn't make the game more fun. I dont play link bowser and samus becuase there bad (compared to mk, snake, G&W, kirby, ect...) I play them because I love the way they play, and I love the chars themselves.

Marth has Nothing bad about him. Every attack is good. I could say the same for many other chars. So why do bad chars have to keep there ****ty moves and broken "techniques" just so they can be different? The answer is they don't.

No matter how much we buff bowsers abiltiy to take damage. He will still be out speeded and out comboed bye most of the chars,and Completely destroyed by the marths, G&W, and MKs of the game. What thats saying is if you play bowser your only option is to Get completely ***** until you get 1 good hit in, and continue like that until you MABYE win.
What happens when your fighting a char with a comboable spike? I'll tell you. you get ****ed, or ya get lucky. No amout of defense is gonna save you from a spike when you have a terrible recovery. Why is it so difficult to let him have Better kill moves. A better recovery AND make him an attack sponge? Snake has all of this! He will still have slow easily punished moves and die off the top quicker than the fast falling chars ( with the new fall speed code that is)

For yoshi why not give him better kill moves, a better recovery AND jump out of shield. This will not break him! He still probley won't be that good. He will still have a relatively bad recovery, a useless side B, and a mediocre projectile...

>_> I could go on but this is a long kinda pointless post, thats probley not gonna change anyones opinion. I know the majority of you play hightiers because you like the way they play. I'm sure all of you aren't tier whores, but think about it. Why should your char be better than mine when we can change that, and be on a more even plain?

Edit: I really dont want to hear the obligatory "get better" or "mabye you just suck" because you all know that the chars I main are some of the worst in the game.
and I'm not saying everyone is of this mentality, but I do hear these things alot, and I'm glad there are people like mookie rah and cape working on the buffs. "

Link is awesome now, Yoshi is worlds better, and we are working on Bowser. Also thanks for not even considering the fact that a ton of us are working on these buffs, and you only thank them. Seriously, people don't even thank us for the work we put into this, all you do is complain :-\