COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[goodoldganon]

I see exactly what Leaf is saying. When fighting DK a good player knows grab releases don't work or are much harder to pull off on him. The player can adjust their strategy accordingly. Every single fighter knows this going to fight DK.

Now in the example of Marth, his grab release doesn't work on a majority of the cast, until he fights a Mother boy and he can change his entire strategy to fight them or how to deal with grabs.

It's like going into a match fighting Samus. You know the projectiles are coming, you just gotta figure out how to deal with em.

 

[Alopex]

Ganon, you're thinking about in vBrawl terms, where releases are broken enough that they can actually be used as an escape tool by grabbers.

If all releases were universal, then no one would be trying to use releases offensively on DK anyway, so that wouldn't matter. Considering how using releases as a tool for offense is the worst concept ever, I don't see how the previous sentence could be a bad thing.

And just to reiterate:

Which is why releases always have to end neutral. Because the grabber is taking a risk in choosing to forgo the otherwise guaranteed throw, but the grabee has not done anything to deserve an advantage (they got grabbed, that doesn't earn them an advantage no matter how much they button mash...).

This allows the release game to actually be a "game" as opposed to a guaranteed advantage for either side.

A frame advantage to either side (Dk 20 frame release or Bowser 20 frame break) removes neutrality.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm really indifferent on the whole thing. I was just under the understanding it's a big part of Bowser's game and he is already hurting even after the 1% damage reduction buff.

 

[kupo15]

no one should get frame advantage on a grab release

 

[goodoldganon]

Inform me on who uses these grab releases as part of their offenses (assuming we fixed the ones on Wario and the Mother Boys). My question is it worth reworking Bowser to eliminate his grab release advantages? He isn't exactly some powerhouse and losing that is just taking him down further.

 

[wazgood]

i havent played the new code yet. does the 1 dmg thing prevent flinching too?

 

[goodoldganon]

No

10nodamagetornadoes

 

[abcool]

Ok so i am using Kupo's gct file and i wanna take out that momentum code(crazy SD when running and i can't hug the stage and not fogetting the stages feel a bit small, the characters flying to far feels even worst) does anyone know how i can edit the code cause idk how to make it pop up on my code manager. Also does anyone have that old no laser lock,jab and etc code?

 

[leafgreen386]

There is nothing subjective about removing specific character disadvantages and keeping character specific advantages. I hate wario, but with this I would have him getting a frame reduction to whatever keeps every character in the game from comboing him off a grab release except for those who have lower release times (I know he has a 50 frame air release, but he still gets ***** regardless since he doesn't go anywhere).

Are you planning on saying that we should just leave wario in his grab release predicament alone? If every character has to have the same number of frames for the release, and we leave air releases at 50... then wario gets screwed over. Your method is just as subjective as mine (meaning it's not), but mine actually fixes what is broken in the game, instead of killing something that gave a few (non-broken) characters a slight advantage against the rest of the cast.

Grab releases single out certain characters that get screwed almost universally. It also singles out a few characters that benefit universally. I see no reason to remove the advantage that some characters have, although I think that characters who got screwed by that mechanic should be fixed.

 

[kupo15]

Inform me on who uses these grab releases as part of their offenses (assuming we fixed the ones on Wario and the Mother Boys). My question is it worth reworking Bowser to eliminate his grab release advantages? He isn't exactly some powerhouse and losing that is just taking him down further.

marth grab releases to tipper. yoshi grab release, someothers

Ok so i am using Kupo's gct file and i wanna take out that momentum code(crazy SD when running and i can't hug the stage and not fogetting the stages feel a bit small, the characters flying to far feels even worst) does anyone know how i can edit the code cause idk how to make it pop up on my code manager. Also does anyone have that old no laser lock,jab and etc code?

the air code is a beta. Its pretty cool though

 

[Alopex]

Yoshi uses grab releases offensively.

Bowser's grab releases are a band-aid fix to a much larger issue. It's a half-***** solution to a deeper problem of his character balancing.

It's a no-skill, inherent advantage, and it's just not fair.

Bowser needs to be fixed in other ways. Not through this kind of "uniqueness" which doesn't answer the real problems of the character.

 

[abcool]

Kupo...That gotta fix...i can't take the SD's, i can't hug the stage...*sigh* aight then..plz release another one asap...i'll go back to using the old codeset without the character specific stuff and the momentum.

 

[Alopex]

There is nothing subjective about removing specific character disadvantages and keeping character specific advantages. I hate wario, but with this I would have him getting a frame reduction to whatever keeps every character in the game from comboing him off a grab release except for those who have lower release times (I know he has a 50 frame air release, but he still gets ***** regardless since he doesn't go anywhere).

Are you planning on saying that we should just leave wario in his grab release predicament alone? If every character has to have the same number of frames for the release, and we leave air releases at 50... then wario gets screwed over. Your method is just as subjective as mine (meaning it's not), but mine actually fixes what is broken in the game, instead of killing something that gave a few (non-broken) characters a slight advantage against the rest of the cast.

Grab releases single out certain characters that get screwed almost universally. It also singles out a few characters that benefit universally. I see no reason to remove the advantage that some characters have, although I think that characters who got screwed by that mechanic should be fixed.

Ummm... my method does the following:

ALL Ground Releases : 30 frames
ALL Air Releases: 30 frames
ALL Grab Breaks: 30 frames

So every single issue is resolved and the release game is left neutral as it should be. No one is advantaged OR disadvantaged.

How is that not more balanced, proper, and ideal than having arbitrary advantages under the veil of "uniqueness"?

It looks like from the start you were misunderstanding my goals?

I don't want uniqueness gone, I want arbitrary things gone.

What is it about DK, exactly, that makes him, uniquely and specifically, the character who gets a 20 frame release?
Why him? Can anyone tell me why/how that was a developmental balance choice and not an oversight?
Even in vBrawl he's hardly below mid tier. Why doesn't Mario get that advantage instead? What basis is there for this sort of decision? Why not just go ahead and start changing release values as a way to balance characters?

And so on... you see the problem with arbitrary things like that?

 

[kupo15]

Kupo...That gotta fix...i can't take the SD's, i can't hug the stage...*sigh* aight then..plz release another one asap...i'll go back to using the old codeset without the character specific stuff and the momentum.

I already put in the request

Ummm... my method does the following:

ALL Ground Releases : 30 frames
ALL Air Releases: 30 frames
ALL Grab Breaks: 30 frames

So every single issue is resolved and the release game is left neutral as it should be. No one is advantaged OR disadvantaged.

How is that not more balanced, proper, and ideal than having arbitrary advantages under the veil of "uniqueness"?

It looks like from the start you were misunderstanding my goals?

I agree with this. I would also like to take it a step forward and give you back your second jump upon being grabbed

 

[abcool]

There is one more question. I hear everybody talking about *beta 1* and 2 etc. Are these the unofficial standard codesets or i need to look on another forum to find it? Also am i using Beta 3 or 2 cause i just copied ya codeset? (if that is what beta is...)

 

[Alopex]

I'm still hoping that someone can help me out with this little conundrum:

And a question via example:

This line makes all characters have a 1 frame jab.
This line makes Zelda have a 3 frame jab.

Will the second line work such that Zelda will have a 3 frame jab but every other character will still have the 1 frame jab as set by the preceding line? Because, technically, the first line also applies to Zelda since it applies to All characters.

I agree with this. I would also like to take it a step forward and give you back your second jump upon being grabbed

Agreed, but that would need a separate code. And it'll likely be the same code which will allow Snake and G&W to use their UpB again after getting grabbed and released.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ummm... my method does the following:

ALL Ground Releases : 30 frames
ALL Air Releases: 30 frames
ALL Grab Breaks: 30 frames

So every single issue is resolved and the release game is left neutral as it should be. No one is advantaged OR disadvantaged.

How is that not more balanced, proper, and ideal than having arbitrary advantages under the veil of "uniqueness"?

It looks like from the start you were misunderstanding my goals?

I don't want uniqueness gone, I want arbitrary things gone.

What is it about DK, exactly, that makes him, uniquely and specifically, the character who gets a 20 frame release?
Why him? Can anyone tell me why/how that was a developmental balance choice and not an oversight?
Even in vBrawl he's hardly below mid tier. Why doesn't Mario get that advantage instead? What basis is there for this sort of decision? Why not just go ahead and start changing release values as a way to balance characters?

And so on... you see the problem with arbitrary things like that?

So you're buffing air releases, then?

I do not see a problem with arbitrary things such as this. You could call any number of things in this game "arbitrary." Frick, our character specific sh/grav/ff mods could be considered "arbitrary" and no one has a problem with them. I only have a problem with characters getting screwed over by mechanics. If someone happens to have an advantage that isn't gamebreaking, then so be it. Let them keep it. If someone has a disadvantage that screws them over against most of the cast, then it needs to be fixed.

There is one more question. I hear everybody talking about *beta 1* and 2 etc. Are these the unofficial standard codesets or i need to look on another forum to find it? Also am i using Beta 3 or 2 cause i just copied ya codeset? (if that is what beta is...)

The beta codes are official brawl+ backroom releases. Check this thread.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I'm still hoping that someone can help me out with this little conundrum:

And a question via example:

This line makes all characters have a 1 frame jab.
This line makes Zelda have a 3 frame jab.

Will the second line work such that Zelda will have a 3 frame jab but every other character will still have the 1 frame jab as set by the preceding line? Because, technically, the first line also applies to Zelda since it applies to All characters.

Code reads from top to bottom, so you'd want to have the "Zelda 3frame" over the "All 1frame"
If you do it that way, Zelda would get a 1 frame jab because the code would read that first, and that would be what she would do. It would read the "Zelda 3frame" line, but it wouldn't matter because she already started her 1frame jab command.

Ummm... but then again I don't know if this code is any different than basic and chipmunk. Lol

 

[Alopex]

So you're buffing air releases, then?

I do not see a problem with arbitrary things such as this. You could call any number of things in this game "arbitrary." Frick, our character specific sh/grav/ff mods could be considered "arbitrary" and no one has a problem with them. I only have a problem with characters getting screwed over by mechanics. If someone happens to have an advantage that isn't gamebreaking, then so be it. Let them keep it. If someone has a disadvantage that screws them over against most of the cast, then it needs to be fixed.

Buffing? Not really.

The air release animation will end EXACTLY as soon as the grabber's grab break animation ends. Meaning both characters will be free to act at the EXACT same time.

This allows the released character the chance to escape/counterattack since they can airdodge, attack, etc. But also allows the attacker to use the positioning of the released character to their advantage and is also great for mind games.

In the end, it's neutral. Both characters have a chance of going away from the air release with an advantage. Same will go for ground releases.

The difference between this system and the system you support is that the advantage in my system is determined by player actions and player skill, not by some inherent automatic factor that makes no balance-wise sense.

That's the main drive here: to put grab release results ENTIRELY in the hands of the players.
Come on, you know that sounds more appealing...


EDIT: Dyce, that last sentence scares me. So... you don't know if that's for sure how the coding would work in this case?

 

[leafgreen386]

See, here's the thing. You're looking at grab releases as a mistake. I'm looking at them as another option out of a grab for the characters who have lower release times. I will not support this until the characters who had grab releases get appropriate buffs on their throws.

Also, I think that air releases should still put the released player in a slight disadvantage if we do go your route, rather than making them both 30 frames. Maybe make the released player have something like a 40 frame animation instead. The fact the grounded player would need to jump to aerial the now airborne player makes an equal distribution actually slightly favor the released player.

 

[CountKaiser]

An if case you solve your problem, Alopex, but I assume that you can't do that here.

I would put the Zelda line first, then test it.

 

[kupo15]

See, here's the thing. You're looking at grab releases as a mistake. I'm looking at them as another option out of a grab for the characters who have lower release times. I will not support this until the characters who had grab releases get appropriate buffs on their throws.

Also, I think that air releases should still put the released player in a slight disadvantage if we do go your route, rather than making them both 30 frames. Maybe make the released player have something like a 40 frame animation instead. The fact the grounded player would need to jump to aerial the now airborne player makes an equal distribution actually slightly favor the released player.

How do you not recognize grab release setups glitchy programming that needs to be fixed? If you get grabbed, the grabber is at the advantage, but if he fails to throw you in time, you should not be put in a worse situation. Its called grab breaks because you break free from the punishment, not break away into something more severe. Grabbing someone with the intent of releasing them to put yourself in a better setup than throwing defeats the purpose of the throwing mechanic for those characters. I thought we are trying to get rid of situations where you have no way to defend yourself.
How do you not recognize it as a stupid exploit in the programming?

 

[Shell]

Does speeding up a characters throw animation cause them to have less post-throw lag and thus follow up on throws easier? Or does it just mean that the animation occurs faster and both parties end up in the same place relative to one another?

If it's the former, and speeding up throws makes follow-ups easier, I'd say get rid of release set ups and make break outs neutral. Then, if needed, buff the throw speed of whatever characters had release setups. This preserves the benefit of trying to break out of a throw while giving some characters extra advantages for getting off the throw successfully.

If it's the later, then oh well. I still say breaking out of a grab shouldn't put you in a bad position. Buff the characters in other ways, if needed.

 

[grim mouser]

Throw speed is too glitchy to use, I think. It messes up damage dealt and stuff.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Because they function the same way as throw combos and chainthrows?

I mean really, it's okay for Sonic upthrow to combo into a guaranteed uair at any percentage (even killing percentages), but it's not okay for Bowser to get a d-tilt out of a grab release?

And what about characters who's entire matchups revolve around grab releases (Yoshi vs half the cast, Bowser vs Metaknight, ect.)? Are you really going to just take that away because grab release combos were "unintended"? There are things that are far more broken in this game that people seem to be okay with, but ever since grab release infinites came about grab releases themselves were labeled as "bad"?

 

[Shell]

Well, if there's another way to give bowser etc.'s throws more follow up options, then great.

 

[kupo15]

^^Because they function the same way as throw combos and chainthrows?

I mean really, it's okay for Sonic upthrow to combo into a guaranteed uair at any percentage (even killing percentages), but it's not okay for Bowser to get a d-tilt out of a grab release?

And what about characters who's entire matchups revolve around grab releases (Yoshi vs half the cast, Bowser vs Metaknight, ect.)? Are you really going to just take that away because grab release combos were "unintended"? There are things that are far more broken in this game that people seem to be okay with, but ever since grab release infinites came about grab releases themselves were labeled as "bad"?

Im pretty sure yoshi doesn't need to rely on grab release combos to win anymore. That seems like a Vb exclusive tactic because thats all he had going for him

 

[leafgreen386]

Im pretty sure yoshi doesn't need to rely on grab release combos to win anymore. That seems like a Vb exclusive tactic because thats all he had going for him

It's still nerfing the character by taking away options he had. Which is my whole point about this. We buff characters that need help. And we don't nerf characters that don't need to be nerfed.

 

[Shell]

Well, for just a moment, step outside of character balance.

Can everyone see the argument, at least, that successfully breaking out of a grab (doing something right) shouldn't punish you?

I know what you're thinking -- "Don't get grabbed."

 

[kupo15]

It's still nerfing the character by taking away options he had. Which is my whole point about this. We buff characters that need help. And we don't nerf characters that don't need to be nerfed.

I thought brawl+ was about fixing the game and the fact that you are against fixing this mechanic goes against brawl+'s ideology imo. Grab breaks is a reward for escaping a grab, not a punishment.

It doesn't seem balanced when one or two characters can exploit a game mechanic to their advantage and leaves the grabbed with no way to defend themselves. This is why DDD's CG was ******** except to a larger degree

 

[shanus]

I'm gonna agree with Kupo here, I think grab releases are pretty lame.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Im pretty sure yoshi doesn't need to rely on grab release combos to win anymore. That seems like a Vb exclusive tactic because thats all he had going for him

Pivot grabbing is his most useful defensive measure (used much more often than Shielding). Yoshi lands grabs a lot as a countermeasure to the opponent's approach. BUT, Yoshi's throws are pretty bad for comboing (you can get a uair off of D-throw if they don't DI, but that's basically it), and Yoshi's aerials in general don't chain into each other that well.

So no, it's not a Vb exclusive tactic, it is still a staple to Yoshi's gameplay. I mean, we could tweak Yoshi so that he still plays well without grab release combos...but then we have to go through more discussions about what moves to buffs, how fast should his throws be, ect. when right now we have a perfectly balanced character.

I'm gonna agree with Kupo here, I think grab releases are pretty lame.

Lame and unbalanced are two completely different things. I think Kirby's grab combos are lame. Falco's jab is lame, jab resets are lame, ect.

But they're perfectly balanced tactics/moves and thus they don't need to be "fixed."

 

[Shell]

That's not to say that we can't give Bowser and company options to make up for fixing a counter-intuitive mechanic, lines permitting.

 

[Teronist09]

I thought brawl+ was about fixing the game and the fact that you are against fixing this mechanic goes against brawl+'s ideology imo. Grab breaks is a reward for escaping a grab, not a punishment.

It doesn't seem balanced when one or two characters can exploit a game mechanic to their advantage with no way to defend themselves. This is why DDD's CG was ******** except to a larger degree

So would you remove/edit it for those characters that can be punished directly out of grab release, or make grab release neutral across the board?

 

[kupo15]

I'm gonna agree with Kupo here, I think grab releases are pretty lame.

What are your thoughts on giving ppl back their double jump upon getting grabbed? Falcon lifting people up off the ground so that they can not renew their double jump is the epitome of bad programming imo. A couple of characters have this including marth against all the small characters I believe.

And what is with an air break when both players are fully on the platform? Shouldn't this ALWAYS be a ground break?

So would you remove/edit it for those characters that can be punished directly out of grab release, or make grab release neutral across the board?

Universal grab breaks seems like a perfectly logical solution to me

 

[Shell]

I mean, we could tweak Yoshi so that he still plays well without grab release combos... [but] right now we have a perfectly balanced character.

That's not what I heard.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's not what I heard.

Okay, so he needs a little buffing anyway, but he's not nearly the utter wreck that Bowser was.

 

[shanus]

Pivot grabbing is his most useful defensive measure (used much more often than Shielding). Yoshi lands grabs a lot as a countermeasure to the opponent's approach. BUT, Yoshi's throws are pretty bad for comboing (you can get a uair off of D-throw if they don't DI, but that's basically it), and Yoshi's aerials in general don't chain into each other that well.

So no, it's not a Vb exclusive tactic, it is still a staple to Yoshi's gameplay. I mean, we could tweak Yoshi so that he still plays well without grab release combos...but then we have to go through more discussions about what moves to buffs, how fast should his throws be, ect. when right now we have a perfectly balanced character.


Lame and unbalanced are two completely different things. I think Kirby's grab combos are lame. Falco's jab is lame, jab resets are lame, ect.

But they're perfectly balanced tactics/moves and thus they don't need to be "fixed."

Very True. I guess lets keep in the one's which aren't broken? Remove the infinites though.

 

[Shell]

Fair enough. It just seems like if we're going to take the time to really balance him anyway, and especially if we can give him an ODJC, it seems lazy to leave a counter-intuitive mechanic (no matter how unique) in there.

 

[shanus]

What are your thoughts on giving ppl back their double jump upon getting grabbed? Falcon lifting people up off the ground so that they can not renew their double jump is the epitome of bad programming imo. A couple of characters have this including marth against all the small characters I believe.

Personally, I think grabbing someone while they are recovering should not give their jumps back. They were sloppy and let us grab without them touching the ground. As such, they should be punished for it. I think its fine as is.