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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
@Kupo
Pretty much. Except your last green line in your OP is the 2x Ganon Jab one. So you can keep that one if you want and just remove the first 2 green lines. If you're going to replace those two lines with the lines I gave you, remember that the first line on my post is the same as the first line on your post and thus shouldn't be repeated. Remove it and modify the first line on your post to account for your line total.
@Sketch
Well, in vBrawl it's already pretty tricky to pull things off after a grab release. Takes a lot of time and effort to practice and even then it's hardly guaranteed since the timing is so precise. If we make it 25 frames, I'm afraid no one will be fast enough to do much out of the release.
Bowser King has already mentioned in the Brawlplussery thread that the Klaw won't work on every character, and even then would need pinpoint timing to execute. I mean, looking at the math alone it would require frame-perfect execution of the Klaw. And with 1 frame Buffer, that's not too simple.
So, personally, I think 23 frames in order to account fro human error by the Bowser's would be the way to go, because they're the ones most likely to make the mistakes and even if they don't make an error, the repercussions aren't that bad for the grabbed person.
Grab release > Klaw
Up Throw > Knee
I'd rather receive the Klaw.
Pretty much. Except your last green line in your OP is the 2x Ganon Jab one. So you can keep that one if you want and just remove the first 2 green lines. If you're going to replace those two lines with the lines I gave you, remember that the first line on my post is the same as the first line on your post and thus shouldn't be repeated. Remove it and modify the first line on your post to account for your line total.
@Sketch
Well, in vBrawl it's already pretty tricky to pull things off after a grab release. Takes a lot of time and effort to practice and even then it's hardly guaranteed since the timing is so precise. If we make it 25 frames, I'm afraid no one will be fast enough to do much out of the release.
Bowser King has already mentioned in the Brawlplussery thread that the Klaw won't work on every character, and even then would need pinpoint timing to execute. I mean, looking at the math alone it would require frame-perfect execution of the Klaw. And with 1 frame Buffer, that's not too simple.
So, personally, I think 23 frames in order to account fro human error by the Bowser's would be the way to go, because they're the ones most likely to make the mistakes and even if they don't make an error, the repercussions aren't that bad for the grabbed person.
Grab release > Klaw
Up Throw > Knee
I'd rather receive the Klaw.
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
23 it is!
On another note, I've been messing with the Frame Mod Data code. When changing the first line for the byte count, do you multiply the line number by 8 then convert that result to hex? Or do you count the lines, convert that count to hex, then multiply by 8 in hex again?
On another note, I've been messing with the Frame Mod Data code. When changing the first line for the byte count, do you multiply the line number by 8 then convert that result to hex? Or do you count the lines, convert that count to hex, then multiply by 8 in hex again?
abcool
Smash Ace
Hey i noticed u guys focusing on different things, but is anyone working on ledge teching? To my knowledge peach still ***** with it and it is kinda a pain, when you die at such low percents from a stage spike.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
if you are being stage spiked, you can tech it. Ledgeteching akin to melee where if you get fsmashed by marth near the edge and tech it, however, is not incorporated yet. We want to make it happen though.
Eaode
Smash Champion
you can tech stage spikes. Edge teching is SDI'ing INTO a collision where you normally wouldn't have hit the wall, like when hit by something that hits you away, such as Marth's fsmash.
abcool
Smash Ace
Yea i know difference i was just saying ya know....... but the times i died i was recovering with fox and she downsmash me upon trying to grab the ledge.....ledge problem i am guessing, usually in melee i could have teched the ledge( really good fox player here lol) so i just was wondering if u guys can work on that soon. Oh yea b+ has some good reviews here aswell so i'll upload some vids and show u a few teams matches soon.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Added. I think the first line has the correct byte count
Almost kupo. 88 in hex is 58.
11 lines after first. 11 x 8 = 88. And then 88 in hex is 58.
EDIT:
Here is the Grab Release Fix with Bowser's 23 frame grab break.
To avoid confusion, I removed the first line, which is the first line of the Frame Mod code.
So just insert this into the Frame Mod code you're using, make sure any prior grab release/break related lines are removed, and then modify the first line of your Frame Mod code to reflect your new line total. Whew!
If anyone needs it, this is the site I use for my hex conversions:
http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver17.htm#b10tob16
EDIT2: Also, I'm done with the Brawlplusery thread... there are far too many posters there that are just not worth arguing with and who just do not understand simple concepts like "bias" and "double-standard" and "wait until we actually have the needed codes". At least in this thread, I get intelligent discussions that actually lead to sensible, compromised results.
Case in point: SketchHurricane and our Bowser release chat.
11 lines after first. 11 x 8 = 88. And then 88 in hex is 58.
EDIT:
Here is the Grab Release Fix with Bowser's 23 frame grab break.
Code:
0B00003B 3F5E9BD3
1E00003B 3F777777
0A000040 3FAAAAAA
1A000040 3FAAAAAA
01000040 3F2AAAAA
25000041 3FD11111
FF000041 3FD55555So just insert this into the Frame Mod code you're using, make sure any prior grab release/break related lines are removed, and then modify the first line of your Frame Mod code to reflect your new line total. Whew!
If anyone needs it, this is the site I use for my hex conversions:
http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver17.htm#b10tob16
EDIT2: Also, I'm done with the Brawlplusery thread... there are far too many posters there that are just not worth arguing with and who just do not understand simple concepts like "bias" and "double-standard" and "wait until we actually have the needed codes". At least in this thread, I get intelligent discussions that actually lead to sensible, compromised results.
Case in point: SketchHurricane and our Bowser release chat.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Can you PM that to Almas for the next set?
KayJay
Smash Ace
I will record many many Brawl+ matches tomorrow, (1on1s and 2on2s) 3 friends of mine are comming and we will play with:
no tripping
ALC
+8,5% Hitstun
30% Hitlag
1.25 Downward Gravity
1.15 Fast Fall
1.2 Dash Speed
Dash Dance
Dash (Crouch) Cancel
Shield Stun, Shield Gain, Shield Damage and Perfect Shield codes
P.Trainer stuff
BTW. i found out that on 1.25 downward grav and +8.5% Hitstun Link can do against opponents with low %:
sh d.air (hit twice) -> n.air (before landing) -> dash attack (QDA) -> u.tilt -> any aerial attack
and it's really hard to DI out (if it's even possible).
no tripping
ALC
+8,5% Hitstun
30% Hitlag
1.25 Downward Gravity
1.15 Fast Fall
1.2 Dash Speed
Dash Dance
Dash (Crouch) Cancel
Shield Stun, Shield Gain, Shield Damage and Perfect Shield codes
P.Trainer stuff
BTW. i found out that on 1.25 downward grav and +8.5% Hitstun Link can do against opponents with low %:
sh d.air (hit twice) -> n.air (before landing) -> dash attack (QDA) -> u.tilt -> any aerial attack
and it's really hard to DI out (if it's even possible).
zxeon
Smash Lord
Use beta 2. It's a ton of fun
@Shanus
I sent Almas the PM.
@cAm8ooo
The IC CG's is a can of worms so huge that I'm afraid to go near it for fear of brain damage.
I mean, here's the thing:
The IC's didn't have true CG's in Melee. They had the Wobbling, which was an infinite, and they had things like Dair CG which could be escaped with SmashDI. And they were still high tier.
So, are CG's the way the IC's have *always* played? No. They only play like that in Brawl.
Is a grab heavy game the way they have *always* played? Yes.
So let's examine what that means.
The IC's CG comes in the form of a unique element: Alternate throws.
Unlike Melee's "CG's", which were completely escapable via SmashDI, Brawl's Alternate throws are entirely inescapable. The grabbed character remains completely and entirely at the mercy of the grabber. They can literally do nothing unless the IC player messes up. They have no form of defense.
That's... pretty powerful.
But it does have a drawback, and that drawback is that the Alternate throws are gone once Nana is gone.
Not only that, but the IC's also lose another important aspect of their game without Nana: Desynchs.
Desynchs have always been part of how the IC's play. Since Melee, it was a key cornerstone. But in Brawl, the Alternate throw is so prevalent that most vBrawl IC players just ignore the desynchs in favor of the grabs. I find that disheartening.
Either way, if you're asking me whether or not a support the 0-deaths they have right now, the answer is a resounding no.
I like the concept of Alternate throws, and I like Nana Fair CG's. But I think the former needs to be toned down and the latter needs to be escapable via proper DI like it was in Melee, like Captain Falcon's current CGs are in Brawl+.
How to tone down Alternate throws? I do not know. I don't think there will be a way to fix this with code. I think the only way is to do it via tournament rules. No more than 4 consecutive throws... etc.
Going after Nana in order to avoid Alternate throws is a fun part of that match-up. But being 0-death'd is not fun at all. To retain the dynamic of the first sentence, I think all that can be done is the enforcement of rules to prevent 0-deaths but preserve alternate throws.
I sent Almas the PM.
@cAm8ooo
The IC CG's is a can of worms so huge that I'm afraid to go near it for fear of brain damage.
I mean, here's the thing:
The IC's didn't have true CG's in Melee. They had the Wobbling, which was an infinite, and they had things like Dair CG which could be escaped with SmashDI. And they were still high tier.
So, are CG's the way the IC's have *always* played? No. They only play like that in Brawl.
Is a grab heavy game the way they have *always* played? Yes.
So let's examine what that means.
The IC's CG comes in the form of a unique element: Alternate throws.
Unlike Melee's "CG's", which were completely escapable via SmashDI, Brawl's Alternate throws are entirely inescapable. The grabbed character remains completely and entirely at the mercy of the grabber. They can literally do nothing unless the IC player messes up. They have no form of defense.
That's... pretty powerful.
But it does have a drawback, and that drawback is that the Alternate throws are gone once Nana is gone.
Not only that, but the IC's also lose another important aspect of their game without Nana: Desynchs.
Desynchs have always been part of how the IC's play. Since Melee, it was a key cornerstone. But in Brawl, the Alternate throw is so prevalent that most vBrawl IC players just ignore the desynchs in favor of the grabs. I find that disheartening.
Either way, if you're asking me whether or not a support the 0-deaths they have right now, the answer is a resounding no.
I like the concept of Alternate throws, and I like Nana Fair CG's. But I think the former needs to be toned down and the latter needs to be escapable via proper DI like it was in Melee, like Captain Falcon's current CGs are in Brawl+.
How to tone down Alternate throws? I do not know. I don't think there will be a way to fix this with code. I think the only way is to do it via tournament rules. No more than 4 consecutive throws... etc.
Going after Nana in order to avoid Alternate throws is a fun part of that match-up. But being 0-death'd is not fun at all. To retain the dynamic of the first sentence, I think all that can be done is the enforcement of rules to prevent 0-deaths but preserve alternate throws.
trojanpooh
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,183
Oh good, a super fast AND more advanced codes. Can't wait to try it out. I'll let you know how it went. Warning though, not sure if you have been up to date with the codes, but something about Beta 3 has been causing freezes after battles.
Revven
FrankerZ
@ Alopex- I'm not a coder. So i have no idea if its even possible. But Is there no way to make a code that would make it impossible to grab after four consecutive grabs? This would be the best solution if possible. It would allow them to keep their alt grab but prevent 0-deaths.
edit: maybe make some kinda que that after every fourth grab would trigger a grab break?
edit: maybe make some kinda que that after every fourth grab would trigger a grab break?
MuBa
Smash Lord
The only thing I took from the beta 3 are the character specific frame modifier, everything else I took out.
The problem is that you can still pummel in between alternate throws. Some alternate throw combinations make use of the Fair > Regrab in the middle. Percentage pending you could make Nana Cstick an Fsmash prior to the throw... etc. There's a lot of ways to mix up the alternate throws. That's part of what makes it fun for the IC player, and is part of what makes it unique in general.
It's also exactly what makes it, to my knowledge, impossible to limit with code. I mean, there's just no way to create a queue that'll account for so many variables. At least not from what I imagine.
That's why the only real solution I see is the honor system... which of course means "Follow the tourney rule or get DQ'd".
The fair>regrab is not infinite. It only works to a certain percent. Just add pummeling to the que or not and combine MK26's idea of halfing the amount of buttons it would take to trigger a grab break. This would effectively cause the ice climbers to either try to bypass the 4 grab=grab break rule and risk a ground break or take the guaranteed 4 grabs.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Can I just say this is really stupid? Do you have any idea what you're saying? You're saying that in order to prevent brokenness, we need to put an arbitrary limit on the chaingrab via tournament rules, when there has yet to be any kind of precedent for doing so. I would like you to especially note the term "arbitrary." All that this will do is cause a player to perform the number of alt throws that they're allowed to, perform one regular chaingrab the opponent has a chance of escaping, and then go back to alternate throws. Ok, so you succeeded in stopping the player from just using alt throws to get the kill, but... now what? How many alt throws is "too much?" What makes 5 alt throws so much more broken than 4 alt throws? What makes 6 more broken than 5? 7 than 6? 8 than 7? There's no real way to draw a line here without it being completely arbitrary, which means the only things you can do as far as "rules" go are to either 1) allow it completely, or 2) ban it completely. We can take the "ban" option one step further by hacking it out of the game, but...
Why is it so broken that they get to have a 0-death from a grab? ICs had wobbling in melee, which was also entirely unescapable and required absolutely zero thought once you had successfully set it up. And this was not considered ban worthy by most players. Wobbling past 250% was considered stalling, which takes care of the problem of "what happens if they just keep doing it?" The fact of the matter is that the ICs aren't particularly special in brawl+ with the exception of their grab tricks. How do you defend against getting killed instantly against an IC player from a grab? Don't. Get. Grabbed. It isn't that hard to just space well and to focus on keeping popo and nana separated. Nana's AI (still) sucks, so she's not that hard to gimp.
If the ICs were good enough with their CG to win every tournament, then we might need to look at toning them down. But they weren't top tier in melee. They aren't top tier in VB. And I highly doubt that they'll be top tier in B+.
I dont care whether they can o-death or not. I'm only stating my alternate ideas for if others want to take thier alt grabs away completely or use a tourny rule which both i disagree with.
edit: though if my idea was possible i think it would make their grab game a little more exciting and more skill based while keeping it deadly.
edit: though if my idea was possible i think it would make their grab game a little more exciting and more skill based while keeping it deadly.
MK26
Smash Master
q4relevancy
The Cape
Smash Master
ICers with no move decay and their CGs that are relatively easy to do means they just win.
No Nana grab can STILL lead to great Melee style CGs. That take skill and have the ability to escape and arent super stupid.
Things like, forward throw to Nana toadstool hop > dair to Popo grab.
D throw to fair to grab til like 40.
The nerf doesnt kill the character but takes out their ability to guarentee a kill from one grab everytime. They banned Wobbling and this is actually worse.
No Nana grab can STILL lead to great Melee style CGs. That take skill and have the ability to escape and arent super stupid.
Things like, forward throw to Nana toadstool hop > dair to Popo grab.
D throw to fair to grab til like 40.
The nerf doesnt kill the character but takes out their ability to guarentee a kill from one grab everytime. They banned Wobbling and this is actually worse.
kupo15
Smash Hero
updated alopex. Is the byte count good?
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
just because melee allowed wobbling doesn't mean we shouldn't remove stupid, inescapable, unfun tactics like 0-death chain grabs. we have the power to do anything, so we should use it to make this game not ********, ie: no 0 death chain grab BS. i don't give a **** if melee tourneys allowed it.
EDIT: @ kupo
Lol, almost my friend. You still haven't fixed this:
@cAm
I know it's not infinite. But I've seen IC players start Alternating throws, do a Far > Regrab in between, and then resume Alternating throws. Sure that Fair regrab would only work until certain percentages, but it might still cause issues with a queue system. I don't know.
@Leaf
If I had a firm stance, do you think I would have preceded my post with the sentence that I used?
Your rant opened up the exact can of worms I knew would be opened. As I know will always be opened when this topic comes up.
I'm not going to argue this because it's AS pointless as arguing about Wobbling.
Wobbling was legal, so yes the Alternate Throws could also be legal. That doesn't make either of them fun. At all. Overswarm refers to Wobbling as "Fun Canceling" and I totally agree. From my point of view, I thought we were using Brawl+ to make Brawl more fun. From my point of view, watching your character get thrown around like a ragdoll without you being able to do anything but watch is not fun. That same stance applies to all CG's. I don't care if they're by Bowser or by Dedede. I don't see how they add any sort of fun to the game.
I don't see how it's fun to be helpless.
Lol, almost my friend. You still haven't fixed this:
Change your orange number to 58 and it'll be all good.
@cAm
I know it's not infinite. But I've seen IC players start Alternating throws, do a Far > Regrab in between, and then resume Alternating throws. Sure that Fair regrab would only work until certain percentages, but it might still cause issues with a queue system. I don't know.
@Leaf
If I had a firm stance, do you think I would have preceded my post with the sentence that I used?
Your rant opened up the exact can of worms I knew would be opened. As I know will always be opened when this topic comes up.
I'm not going to argue this because it's AS pointless as arguing about Wobbling.
Wobbling was legal, so yes the Alternate Throws could also be legal. That doesn't make either of them fun. At all. Overswarm refers to Wobbling as "Fun Canceling" and I totally agree. From my point of view, I thought we were using Brawl+ to make Brawl more fun. From my point of view, watching your character get thrown around like a ragdoll without you being able to do anything but watch is not fun. That same stance applies to all CG's. I don't care if they're by Bowser or by Dedede. I don't see how they add any sort of fun to the game.
I don't see how it's fun to be helpless.
The Fair Regrab can work at all %s. On those where it would knock them prone, they can reset the enemy with a desynched icicle, which forces the slow standup animation. They can then just grab as soon as you stand up, and there's nothing you can do if executed perfectly.
Actually I guess you can tech the Fair if you're awesome.
Kupo: I added the post for you.
Actually I guess you can tech the Fair if you're awesome.
Kupo: I added the post for you.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
you guys shouldn't lose sight of what we are doing here. a game company debugs a game, looks for all the problems they could possibly find and then that's it. it get's shipped, and there's nothing they can do to fix it (until of course, the current gen discounting the wii), and the players are left to deal with whatever problems arise.
no matter what position you may have on chain grabs, most sane companies would get rid of them because of how stupid they are.
we are essentially a game company, and we have the power to remove chain grabs. face it, melee was a great game, but it's tourneys shouldn't be what we base our balancing around. if a character's game is centralized around a totally a**-backwards part of the game, just because in melee it would've been fine, does NOT mean we should allow it to happen in brawl+.
no matter what position you may have on chain grabs, most sane companies would get rid of them because of how stupid they are.
we are essentially a game company, and we have the power to remove chain grabs. face it, melee was a great game, but it's tourneys shouldn't be what we base our balancing around. if a character's game is centralized around a totally a**-backwards part of the game, just because in melee it would've been fine, does NOT mean we should allow it to happen in brawl+.
That's interesting coming from you, Jiang.
A CG is a CG. Apparently the posters in the Brawlplusery thread are cool with double standards.
It would be no different then teching any other attack, no?
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
what do you mean "coming from me"?!
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
oh, so i did. honestly i didnt know boozer had a cg, i skimmed over what people were saying, i thought you guys were talking about his grab release combos which i think are extremely marginal and not nearly as stupid as ice climber's 0 death stuff
Well, yeah, the quote I quoted came from you Jiang... I... quoted it for that reason...
EDIT: The main thing I was arguing with Bowser King over, which somehow no one there seemed to agree with, was what people here have already agreed with.
Remove Bowser's chaingrab. Keep his grab release combo game. I came up with that solution with the 23 frame grab break for Bowser, which was agreed upon by posters here.
Bowser King wants to keep the CG. For some reason, other people who posted there agreed. That included you, Jiang.
That split the consensus between the posters from this thread, and the posters from that thread.
Now I wonder how many more people were agreeing without really understanding what was going on...
EDIT: The main thing I was arguing with Bowser King over, which somehow no one there seemed to agree with, was what people here have already agreed with.
Remove Bowser's chaingrab. Keep his grab release combo game. I came up with that solution with the 23 frame grab break for Bowser, which was agreed upon by posters here.
Bowser King wants to keep the CG. For some reason, other people who posted there agreed. That included you, Jiang.
That split the consensus between the posters from this thread, and the posters from that thread.
Now I wonder how many more people were agreeing without really understanding what was going on...