COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[GPDP]

So, Almas, when can we expect a jump launch power modifier, at least so we can mess around with gravity settings and see how the game would feel?

 

[SketchHurricane]

You're not causing a new page for me 20 posts per page

Anyway, I don't think shield damage needs to be tweaked at all. With shieldstun and the PS fix, shields are far from broken now.

I know it's not necessary, but I actually find it fun to have the shield in danger I wanted to experiment anyway, and .25 is not bad. Takes 2 shield breakers (not sure what it took before), 3 Pounds/Falcon Pawnches, 4 Donkey Punches.

 

[jmlee337]

Aerial Lag Reduction/Legless Ledges [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2766C20 00000006
807D007C 80630038
2C030018 40A2000C
C022FFEC FC000072
2C030075 40A2000C
C022FFF0 FC000072
D01F0010 00000000


hort Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]
C285765C 00000007
2C002F20 4082000C
C002FFE0 EC200072
2C002F00 4082000C
C01EFFE4 EC200072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C01EFFE8 EC200072
4E800020 00000000

Hitstun/Shorthop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed/Aerial Lag Reduction/Lagless Ledges constants
065A9300 00000010
SHORTHOP DASHDASH
FASTFALL 40000000
40A00000 00000000

Is this for use with the merger code?

 

[spunit262]

Is this for use with the merger code?

Nothing I post is for uses with the merger code. You could use them with it, but they're separate.

 

[CyberGlitch]

It seems to be it's own merger code.

Over the weekend Almas plans to integrate the other missing codes with what Sputnit's provided here to make an even shorter Merger Code.

Awesome work Sputnit.


Alright, so here's where everyone can help, in case you didn't read this a few pages back.

Pick the character you are most experienced with and test him/her with a few shorthop values (8, 8.5, and 9 are my suggestions). For at least one character find the ideal shorthop value. Your suggestion will help with the character specific shorthops code.

 

[grim mouser]

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]

Could someone explain what this does? Is it like hitstun, where we input a value to modify SH/FF/etc. by?

 

[GPDP]

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]

Could someone explain what this does? Is it like hitstun, where we input a value to modify SH/FF/etc. by?

Yes, that's what it is.

 

[trojanpooh]

It's going to sound kind of cliche, but what values for hitlag emulate Melee?

 

[Revven]

It's going to sound kind of cliche, but what values for hitlag emulate Melee?

.6 or .5 do for the most part.

 

[trojanpooh]

.6 or .5 do for the most part.

Thanks, what are the X, Y, and Z values for .5?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Takes 2 shield breakers (not sure what it took before).

Two uncharged shield breakers breaks a full shield in vBrawl.

I actually kind of like Marth's shield breaker almost breaking full shields. It makes it live up to it's name, and makes people fear shielding, which is exactly what it was supposed to do.

It's a slow enough move that you'd be able to react to it if you're paying attention, so I think the high amount of shield damage is justified.

But meh... I always had a thing for that move anyway (even in melee).

 

[Iamthemovie]

This isn't really an important feature but is it possible if you guys can make a code that lets you
Edge cancel taunts like in SSB64?

Show me ya
Show me ya
Show me ya
Show me ya moves.

 

[Yeroc]

Uh, shorthop durations are dependent on the height code as well as fallspeed/gravity codes. How can you be certain what someone says is going to be similar to what someone else says.

To answer the request, I'm using 1.0 up, 1.15 down, .95 shorthop for ZSS and like it. It's the lowest I can consistently sh double uair.

 

[Shell]

I think she gets a lot more out of a lower SH, like being able to easily land Bairs and Fairs. .8-something would be good.

If you have a higher fastfall code, you can shuffl the Uairs pretty quickly. I'd say she has much more trouble landing her kill move, bair, than she does using the double Uair, which is more situational. What do you think?

Then again, we are using different sets, and seeing as you are a ZSS main and I'm not, you're probably right.

 

[Eaode]

If anyone is interested in my codeset, including:


- 1.15 down gravity
- 1.1 up gravity
- Fastfall speed: 1.075
- Dash speed: 1.15
- Shield stun 11/22/5
- Hitstun +8.5%
- Hitlag 60%
- Dash Dancing
- Dash Cancel
- No stale move w/ Fresh
- SH height: 0.9
- 2 frame PS
- 1 frame buffer
... As well as the obvious stuff like ALC, NASL, and Lagless ledges
... (I Also have a pretty kickass CSS now)

you can download my .txt from Host-a.net HERE

I guess I'm not asking for this to be put into the OP, obviously that would be succumbing to "put mine too!" syndrome. I'm just getting it out there so people that want to try it can. Kupo's set seems pretty mild, and kinda weird with extraneous shield stuff. Mookie's seems better but I think the main thing is there's overcompensation in some instead of moderately adjusting various other values.

The point of my set is mainly to provide people with a set that has very reasonable values for everything, but that all works together smoothly, and incorporates upwards gravity to provide a well-rounded, faster, and overall fulfilling experience. With the new breakthrough coders have made with Char. specific short hops, I think it's time for people to seriously start considering adding upwards gravity to their set, and my Codeset is very fine tuned and works great with upwards gravity.

I hear so much talk of people using more extreme values such as SH's and high down grav + high FF's, and really, if you uniformly adjust all the values available, you'll get a much more rounded and natural feel. That's what my codeset does, and I sincerely think people should give real consideration to it (And please give me feedback ^_^), and see how it feels.


There's my $0.02
again, codeset HERE

 

[MookieRah]

I don't see how mine is overcompensating for anything. In any case the main point of difference you have is different up grav, down grav, and higher hit stun.

Once Almas shows me how to use his character specific codes I'm going to adjust gravity for characters on a more individual basis. I'll be turning upgrav to 1.1 on characters that aren't hurt by the recovery loss, normalizing gravity on characters like bowser and D3, and making specific short hop heights for characters. I'll also begin testing other balance codes as well.

 

[Eaode]

Yea yours is pretty balanced, all I really noticed was 1.2 down grav, and I was falsely under the impression that you were still using a higher dash multiplier. I may consider lowering my hitstun very slightly, but 8.5 is working really well for me right now.

But yeah, my main point is upwards gravity. The only recovery issues that need to bee looked into are Link and Sonic. I guess giving D3 his old floatiness wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Is Bowser's gravity a problem?

other than that the char. specific shorthops solve the only other problem with upgrav. I'm pretty giddy about this right now :D

 

[Starscream]

Hey Mookie, how come you lowered your down gravity from 1.25 to 1.2?

 

[jmlee337]

Nothing I post is for uses with the merger code. You could use them with it, but they're separate.

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Osi]

Since it looks like mookie will be takling the SH height for each character, and I normally agree with him on most settings. Here are a few of my takes on SH for characters I use a lot.

Falcon - .8: Falcon can land the knee and stomp well at this range, and it makes SHFF nair/up air combos much faster. You can link moves much easier, and if dash speed is on it helps to reach the ground faster.

Fox - .9: The up air comes out a bit easier right above the ground with SHFF's, and the nair can still tap people on platforms. At .8 the nair can't juggle people off a platform when they miss a tech.

Samus - .8: She can easily get out all moves, and her missiles at this range. It adds a lot more speed to her SH missile and dair combo games. She was one of the better feeling with .8 when I was testing.

Mario - .9: He gains more speed, but looses the double bair.

Luigi/Marth/Wolf/Ganon/DK/ness - 1: They need this set to 1 to get out certain moves like marth's double fair.

Falcon - .75: With his nice full hop airs that stay out long I generally never use SH for high attacks on him. With the shorter jump game he can get out juggle combos really fast making his air to ground game speed up a lot. I also like the single hop laser at this range.

Sonic - .9: The lower height doesn't take away much, and adds a lot of speed to his SHFF uair games.

Sheik - .95: She can do most of the game combos at this range, and it still adds a bit of speed.

Peach - .8: The added speed does a lot for her, and with her second jump acting as another SH really I don't see a need for a large SH on peach.

 

[MookieRah]

Hey Mookie, how come you lowered your down gravity from 1.25 to 1.2?

I don't think I lowered my gravity at all, it should be at 1.25. My dash speed is only 2% higher than Eaode's XD, it was 1.2 but I lowered it to 1.17 cause CF got too many tech chases for free.

The only recovery issues that need to bee looked into are Link and Sonic. I would include more characters in that list too though, like Mario, Olimar, Ivysaur, Yoshi and other people who need everything they can get from their recoveries I guess giving D3 his old floatiness wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Is Bowser's gravity a problem?

Yeah, Link and Sonic get blasted by it. D3 does as well. One of the balance fixes I'm doing for Bowser and D3 are normalizing their gravity, because the floatyness provides more protection from combos. For D3 I'm gonna keep his short hops like vBrawl seeing how his bairs are an effective WOP. For Bowser I'll set his shorthop to the appropriate level. The floatyness should also help bowser do the infinite claw trick, even though it's not the reason for the changes.

 

[Eaode]

This SH stuff all depends on your codeset, post what down grav/up grav and FF you are using. For instance I'm on 1.15 down, 1.1 up and 1.1 FF and 0.9 is perfect for everyone (except for those that you want to preserve autocancels/dbl aerials for)

 

[MookieRah]

I do want to preserve most double aerial and autocancels, as long as they are a better trade off than a shorter short hop. I think Mario should at least be able to perform his double uairs. Double bairs would be nice to preserve, but it was already relatively situational, and better shffling is really good too. I'm going to be looking for things like that when I decide on short hop heights and upgrav changes.

Keep in mind, we can always have upgrav on these chars and increase their shorthop heights to preserve double aerials and make them less floaty.

Other changes I forgot to mention:
I might not make it so that Falco has 1.1 upgrav. His recovery isn't so hot. I might set him to 1.05 and see how that works. Plus, he was always a lil more floaty than fox anyways. Ganon would probably have no extra upgrav cause his recovery needs everything it can get as well, same goes to Ike and Squirtle. I think that covers pretty much all the characters with somewhat shoddy recoveries. Some characters don't need upgrav for other reasons. Wario and Jiggs would be sad if they had upgrav.

Are there any DK B+ players out there? If so, does he have trouble getting comboed as much as Bowser and D3? My guess is he doesn't have *as* much trouble, but I would like to know the extent to which it could be a problem.

 

[Eaode]

IMO, Mario's improved SHFFL Uairs are better than floaty dbl Uairs, which have to be placed more carefully to work, whereas with his improved SHFFLs you can apply the Uairs where you really need them. Same for his Bairs, I was WOPing my friend with his Bairs today.

I haven't noticed much wrong with Falco, if you're in a situation where you're relying on Up-B in the frist place, you're most likely going to die anyway to the hands of easy edgeguarding. but if upgrav becomes character specific then why the hell not? Also, on a related note, with 0.9 SH and 1.1 upgrav, Falco's SHDL is actually very useful.

I wouldn't know much about DK, I can't stand playing him in any game other than Melee.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, you may be right about the Falco thing. Making his SHL better would do him more good than a very slight boost to recovery.

 

[Shell]

Regarding DK:

He takes a bit of a beating with combos, but it's manageable. To be honest, I haven't fully transitioned my DK from B- to B+. In vanilla, I excelled at playing semi-defensively with him and ****** with perfectly spaced ftilts and Down B attacks. While these tactics are certainly still valid, I need to get used to going @P3-$H17 offensive on everyone. While D3 may be at a loss due to higher gravity, DK loves it -- he regains some of his Uair combos.

Overall though, he seems like the perfectly balanced character: He has strengths (spacing, KO power, occasional combos, surprisingly fast) and weaknesses (comboable due to size and no GTFO air moves, so-so recovery). He feels like a High-mid or High character right now.

 

[B.W.]

Might as well announce myself as back from a good few months ago.

Most of you won't know me most likely. Mookie might. Kupo does, but that's only because I've been keeping in touch with him.

Anywho, I've got to get everything set up again to test things out and give my own two cents. First thing is first though. **** Hollywood Video needs to give me a working Twilight Princess. *******s.

Chances are I won't be doing anything along the lines of making my own code sets, since it's probably just gonna end up being what's already given, just altered a tad if need be (by what I think it would need to be anyway), so I'll just fiddle with what's given and announce it once I'm done.

You guys have been doin' a **** good job. Special thanks goes out to PW for sticking to it and Almas, and spunit for coming along for the ride. This project would probably be way behind if it weren't for all of you guys bustin' your ***** and takin' your time for this.

 

[leafgreen386]

Welcome back project-05. I remember you. You're the one who first suggested we get our own forum lol

 

[B.W.]

Indeed I am. Glad to see you remember me Leaf.

These past few days I've been keeping tabs, lurking a bit, waiting for the right time to announce myself. I've joined the B+ forum under B. Wonder.

I'll probably continue to lurk until I get into B+. I may throw a few "what ifs" out there if it's needed, but seeing that things are smooth here now (unlike when I left, when everyone was stuck on hitstun being a problem for like 2 months and people just went ballistic), I probably won't have to.

 

[Osi]

Are there any DK B+ players out there? If so, does he have trouble getting comboed as much as Bowser and D3? My guess is he doesn't have *as* much trouble, but I would like to know the extent to which it could be a problem.

I play a lot of DK now on B+. We started playing teams a bit, and he is normally who I use on teams. I do a fair bit of 1 on 1 practice too.

He has some minor issues with being easy to combo against because of the size. He isn't as bad as bowser/D3 on the ground with his mobility, speed, range compared to theirs. I think he has enough options to escape. Once in the air he is really easy to combo against, but one awesome part is the up B can get back from anywhere on the side making gimps a bit harder on him. With his weight he is hard to kill off outside of spikes. I really think he is ok right now on the defense side.

His up tilt, down smash, grab game, and SHFF up air give him some nice combo options when on the ground or near it. The biggest issue with him I currently have is once in the air. DK is large, and in the air he is just easy to combo. Double hit nair's like falcons show the issue a bit better when they are so easy to connect on him due to his size.

 

[kupo15]

I thought I added that, I'm pretty sure I did, but I might not have labeled it in my text file.
Well, lowering it by 2 frames instead of what it was would change the difficulty of PSing. Also, there is no reason and evidence to believe that power shielding is broken. I said this many times. Just cause the code is out doesn't change my stance on it :-P. Also, accidental power shields don't matter much because most of the time people don't react fast enough to an accident to make use of it.

We shouldn't fix things just because it "could" be a problem. I also don't feel the need to make the teching window easier either. It would be a simple fix later on down the road if power shielding becomes a problem, but as of right now there is no reason to do it. If we nerf it now it will more than likely never be un-nerfed.
I disagree, and I will debate with anyone regarding my reasons for the codes I use.

Why don't you try it? There is nothing bad about it and giving PSes away for free isn't a good thing either. It happens occasionally though.

And about the teching window. If you want to keep the current window thats fine but we at least need a better system. If I understand correctly the teching system goes like this:

HITxxxxxxxxxOOOxxxxGround

x=can't tech
O=can tech
Red= laser lock

as opposed to the past two games where it was

HITxxxxxxxxxOOOOground

So yea, the former is stupid

What's the difference between the two Lagless ledges codes?

Use the smaller one. The longer one overrides the ledge action for down and away. I will be deleting this one. Can you also code in a ledge invincibilty mod in there? We need to gain back the lost invincibility from the speed change

kupo15, when you get the chance, could you update your code set with the new 2 line hitstun code? I'm going to need it for tomorrow to showcase Brawl+ to some people so, I wantz the latest shiz.

kthxbai.

sure thing

Ignore it.



I set two constant that were 0000001A and 0000000E to 00010001. They were used for timers, I think the way it works is that as soon as one of 3 timers (thous 2 and the stun time) hit 0 you can air dodge, etc.

I think I should look around there for the Power Shield window.

Edit: found it.
Power Shield window [spunit262]
04B88F20 0000000X

Aerial Lag Reduction/Legless Ledges [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2766C20 00000006
807D007C 80630038
2C030018 40A2000C
C022FFEC FC000072
2C030075 40A2000C
C022FFF0 FC000072
D01F0010 00000000


hort Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]
C285765C 00000007
2C002F20 4082000C
C002FFE0 EC200072
2C002F00 4082000C
C01EFFE4 EC200072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C01EFFE8 EC200072
4E800020 00000000

Hitstun/Shorthop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed/Aerial Lag Reduction/Lagless Ledges constants
065A9300 00000010
SHORTHOP DASHDASH
FASTFALL 40000000
40A00000 00000000

Hitstun [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
02B88F48 00030001
04B87AA8 3ECCCCCD

*Crosses fingers*

HOLY ****! *dead*

Where is the lagless constant?

 

[the_judge]

Though I currently don't have all the tools necassary to play B+ right now, I wouldn't mind being a test subject in the future, considering that I play possibly the whole Brawl cast.

 

[Zilactic]

First off .....
I use 1.2 down gravity, 1.05 up grav, .9 SH., 1.17 Dash Speed, and 8.5% Hitstun

Some characters don't need upgrav for other reasons. Wario and Jiggs would be sad if they had upgrav.

Are there any DK B+ players out there? If so, does he have trouble getting comboed as much as Bowser and D3? My guess is he doesn't have *as* much trouble, but I would like to know the extent to which it could be a problem.

Yeah I like using Wario with a .8 SH. His aerial movement is still beastly and his aerials cancel real fast. (D-Air/F-Air to Bite Ftw). Combining the .8SH with any type of upwards gravity is really depressing though.

DK is my secondary and i can vouch that although the gorilla is very susceptible to being comboed, he makes up for it by being able to combo with his throws and space with his tilts. Considering he's so big... he should have problem with being comboed dont ya think? On the bright side...he does deal with it alot better than Bowser and DDD. As for a SH value for DK.. I would recommend 1.0. You are able to double bair at SH value .98 though. just saying

I haven't noticed much wrong with Falco, if you're in a situation where you're relying on Up-B in the frist place, you're most likely going to die anyway to the hands of easy edgeguarding. but if upgrav becomes character specific then why the hell not? Also, on a related note, with 0.9 SH and 1.1 upgrav, Falco's SHDL is actually very useful.

I agree with everything said above.

Other characters I play include
Wolf: Hes good at .9. I dont know what everyone elses gripe is about it. His Grab attacks are sexy
Lucario: He's awesome at .9. He retains his fair-->neutral air combo and his up throw is chainable. Not to mention his Grab attacks are sexy too.

 

[Strong Badam]

Aerial Lag Reduction/Legless Ledges [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2766C20 00000006
807D007C 80630038
2C030018 40A2000C
C022FFEC FC000072
2C030075 40A2000C
C022FFF0 FC000072
D01F0010 00000000


Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]
C285765C 00000007
2C002F20 4082000C
C002FFE0 EC200072
2C002F00 4082000C
C01EFFE4 EC200072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C01EFFE8 EC200072
4E800020 00000000

Hitstun/Shorthop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed/Aerial Lag Reduction/Lagless Ledges constants
065A9300 00000010
SHORTHOP DASHDASH
FASTFALL 40000000
40A00000 00000000

Is it not possible to separate these codes? I hate the Merger and I'd like smaller things to work with. :\
if not that's ok

 

[kupo15]

Almas, how do we use spunits new codes that the merger code contains

 

[spunit262]

Is it not possible to separate these codes? I hate the Merger and I'd like smaller things to work with. :\
if not that's ok

Unforchantly splinting up a C2 code is not practical.

I could how ever show you how to remove parts of it

Aerial Lag Reduction/Legless Ledges [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2766C20 0000000X
807D007C 80630038
2C030018 40A2000C
C022FFEC FC000072
2C030075 40A2000C
C022FFF0 FC000072
D01F0010 00000000


Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas]
C285765C 0000000X
2C002F20 4082000C
C002FFE0 EC200072
2C002F00 4082000C
C01EFFE4 EC200072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C01EFFE8 EC200072
4E800020 00000000

X=number of lines under the first.

 

[CyberGlitch]

If anyone is interested in my codeset, including:


- 1.15 down gravity
- 1.1 up gravity
- Fastfall speed: 1.075
- Dash speed: 1.15
- Shield stun 11/22/5
- Hitstun +8.5%
- Hitlag 60%
- Dash Dancing
- Dash Cancel
- No stale move w/ Fresh
- SH height: 0.9
- 2 frame PS
- 1 frame buffer
... As well as the obvious stuff like ALC, NASL, and Lagless ledges
... (I Also have a pretty kickass CSS now)

you can download my .txt from Host-a.net HERE

I guess I'm not asking for this to be put into the OP, obviously that would be succumbing to "put mine too!" syndrome. I'm just getting it out there so people that want to try it can. Kupo's set seems pretty mild, and kinda weird with extraneous shield stuff. Mookie's seems better but I think the main thing is there's overcompensation in some instead of moderately adjusting various other values.

The point of my set is mainly to provide people with a set that has very reasonable values for everything, but that all works together smoothly, and incorporates upwards gravity to provide a well-rounded, faster, and overall fulfilling experience. With the new breakthrough coders have made with Char. specific short hops, I think it's time for people to seriously start considering adding upwards gravity to their set, and my Codeset is very fine tuned and works great with upwards gravity.

I hear so much talk of people using more extreme values such as SH's and high down grav + high FF's, and really, if you uniformly adjust all the values available, you'll get a much more rounded and natural feel. That's what my codeset does, and I sincerely think people should give real consideration to it (And please give me feedback ^_^), and see how it feels.


There's my $0.02
again, codeset HERE

I'd encourage you to join the the Brawl+ forum and posting it for easy access by other users here: http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?showtopic=12&st=0#entry1666953


DK should probably stay at 1.1 short hops. If not his shorthop must be lowered enough that his back air can reasonably hit small characters as it comes out.


@ Kupo: Sputnit's codes don't currently work if just inserted in the merger code to replace the longer version of the codes. Almas plans on adding the revised codes to the merger code this weekend.

And Kupo, the merger code is no longer color coded on your code list, so it's hard for us to discern how to remove certain parts of the code. Maybe you shouldn't even bother if the new merger is being made this weekend, though.

 

[kupo15]

I'd encourage you to join the the Brawl+ forum and posting it for easy access by other users here: http://z13.invisionfree.com/BrawlPLUS_Brigade/index.php?showtopic=12&st=0#entry1666953


DK should probably stay at 1.1 short hops. If not his shorthop must be lowered enough that his back air can reasonably hit small characters as it comes out.


@ Kupo: Sputnit's codes don't currently work if just inserted in the merger code to replace the longer version of the codes. Almas plans on adding the revised codes to the merger code this weekend.

And Kupo, the merger code is no longer color coded on your code list, so it's hard for us to discern how to remove certain parts of the code. Maybe you shouldn't even bother if the new merger is being made this weekend, though.

So we can't use the new spunit codes until the new merger is done then? And yes, Almas gave me an up to date merger that was not colored...

 

[Zilactic]

wait a tick....

do any of the codes spunit posted include the triple jump fix and dash canceling?


EDIT: nvm.... new merger code this weekend. lol

 

[kupo15]

Couple of things:

I am going to add "faster starts to jumps" to the list. I'm thinking halving all opening jumps would be a good start

What does everyone think about double speed all throw animations? They are incredibly slow I think.

Also, can I just stack codes on top of each other so I don't have so many codes in my list?