Close this please.

[LeeHarris]

Lulz. I once beat Mr. C, Hylian, and Sethlon 3 v 1. The secret: I was naked and greased. Makes me more aerodynamic.

 

[KRDsonic]

Jeeze Xyro is annoying. He ignores people based on the date they joined, even though they could be people like me that have been playing since the first game came out, I just didn't join forum sites at the time because I didn't feel like it. I still heard all of the news when new techniques, etc. came out though.

He's also ignoring my posts when I'm the only other Ice Climber user that went to his tournament. And he wouldn't even know how chain grabs affect tournaments yet because there were only 9 matches total with Ice Climbers out of that whole tournament...

 

[Azuro]

...Wow...

Banned the IC's infinites? Now I dun seen it all.

Ooo, boy...has it actually been winning tourneys? No. Why you would ban it still, Idk.

 

[Ace83]

07-08 members never stop amazing me.

20 year olds that neglect the fact that there are thousands of skilled, competitive smashers out there (and people that have been coming to this site since it was started and just never made an account) that choose to spend their time differently than frequenting smash forums never stop amazing me. I've read all your posts. THE GAME IS TOO YOUNG TO START BANNING AT's.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I've always found it funny that method of defeating Wobbling/ICG in their respective games was either to avoid being grabbed or to keep Nana separated from Popo, when both strategies are what you SHOULD be doing in the first place against a competent Ice Climbers player, even if they didn't have those techniques at their disposal. By banning either technique, you remove its reinforcement of those two key things to remember against the ICs, and you will probably make your community worse in that matchup in the process. If each time you failed to work towards either of those two strategies, you lost a stock, you'd start working on those two strategies right away, because otherwise you'd just keep losing a stock. You might end up banning it, too.

Lastly, banning it because you're afraid it's going to become a train wreck, or making comparisons to the Iraq War about it is...well, silly. I honestly don't think we're going to be witnessing any casualties from any ICGs, so you don't have to worry about us. I'd personally rather see the train wreck happen first, because then we'd actually know if we need to ban it or not. Prematurely banning it when you can't possibly be 100% certain it will take off as the dominant strategy is a bad mentality, and I'm sad to see it coming up again like it had in Melee.

 

[ShadowLink84]

DDD has a chain grab that is simple and infinite on 5 characrers d-throw, repeat until bored, f-throw. its the same every single time no matter the character or the DI

Not true.
the only one that DDD can infinite chain throw is Donkey Kong. The others tend to escape around 40% or higher depending on DI as well as their size.
the Ice climbers are the only ones with a true infinite on every character.

Marth has an infinite only on Ness/Lucas via chain grabbing.

the IC ICG has to be memorised differently not only for every different character, but for just about every single damage percentage, the moveset needed to infinite, is different depending on their damage every time. lets say that only 10 chars. were viable for tourneys, and that the CG had to be performed differently for every 10 of damage. (10-19, 20-29, ect.) that would make a total of 100 option that the player had to be thinking about at all times while playing the game. now i was being generous, theres almost an infinite number of variants that have to be taken into consideration when even attempting this move, it makes no sence to ban something that difficult, the ppl that can do this efficiently should be rewarded and not punished.

Different as in how? Isn't the CG the same regardless of how much damage is being done? This is an honest question since I do not know much about the IC chain grab.


in anycase I believe the reason the IC infinite chaingrab has been banned is simply because while it is harder to desync Nana and Popo, it is easier too grab your opponent in this game.
With the lack of L canceling and wavedashing the IC's don't have as a great a trouble grabbing an opponent as they would have in melee.

I've always found it funny that method of defeating Wobbling/ICG in their respective games was either to avoid being grabbed or to keep Nana separated from Popo, when both strategies are what you SHOULD be doing in the first place against a competent Ice Climbers player, even if they didn't have those techniques at their disposal.

Another method was also via wavedashing and L canceling. Mainly so you could stay out of the grab range of Nana and popo and remain in the air where it harder for them to grab you.

By banning either technique, you remove its reinforcement of those two key things to remember against the ICs, and you will probably make your community worse in that matchup in the process. If each time you failed to work towards either of those two strategies, you lost a stock, you'd start working on those two strategies right away, because otherwise you'd just keep losing a stock. You might end up banning it, too.

A bit of an exaggeration. The IC chain grab isn't a prime reason for players to try and avoid being chaingrabbed or grabbed at all when fcing any character.
Players will always go with the safest and most damaging method when facing an opponent.
Maximize damage output and minimize damage being taken that is a general rule for all fighting games.
You mentioned yourself that the key to fighting Ice Climbers is to separate them. I don't believe infinite chaingrabbing is hardly a reason for any good player to not do so.

Lastly, banning it because you're afraid it's going to become a train wreck, or making comparisons to the Iraq War about it is...well, silly. I honestly don't think we're going to be witnessing any casualties from any ICGs, so you don't have to worry about us. I'd personally rather see the train wreck happen first, because then we'd actually know if we need to ban it or not. Prematurely banning it when you can't possibly be 100% certain it will take off as the dominant strategy is a bad mentality, and I'm sad to see it coming up again like it had in Melee.

Worst case scenario is that wobbling gets banned by some tournaments and is not banned by other tournaments. Its similar to what happened in melee.
We don't need to see the potential effects or if it is going to be a predominant strategy.
If its not banned the player WILL use it. Simply because they are playing to win.
Not to say they won't use other strategies but if the oppurtnity for wobbling occurs (which it tends to do so moreso in this game IMO) why would the IC player give up the chance?

It was mentioned by a previuos poster that infinites in other fighting games was allowed.
Key difference is that in those fighting games multiple characters had infinites.In WC2 and MVC2 infinites were capable of being used by a great majority of the characters in the game. So it did balance out in such a comparison. Yeah your magneto could use an infinite bu Spiderman could use an infinite( or near infinite my memory is poor) on you as well so it wasn't as if there was a limit on the options available to both characters.

It wasn't as if it were character specific in a specific situation.
This is also akin to SSB64 where all the characters were capable of 0%-KO percentage combos. The only difference was the amount of situations available to that character in order for them to pull of the said infinite.


In SSBB the only characters capable of an infinite are the Ice Climbers and it is usable against all the other characters. None of the other characters are capable of using their own infinites so it isnt as balanced by such a comparison.
The other character Marth and DDD can't infinite all the other characters either.
Marth can only do it against Ness/Lucas
and DDD while he can chaingrab cannot do it for an infinite amount of time unless its Donkey Kong so your opponent can still escape if they are any other character. The other 4 you mentioned do tend to get chaingrabbed for a longer period but can escape.

It is understandable why wobbling would be banned. If only one character is capable of an infinite why should it be allowed if other characters do not have an infinite of their own?
Why allow something that basically limits your opponent to acmping where they are facing a jigglypuff minus the rest? It is understandable.

on the other hand by limiting wobbling you do limit the number of strategies that the IC user has with them. While wobbling isn't a key strategy (to my limited knowledge on the IC's I don't believe it is) itwould be similar to disallowing the use of Bowser's koopacide.
Simply because it can be avoided and in general, isn;t your opponent going to punish a mistake as harshly as possible? I honestly cannot see a reason as to why a Link user in SSB64 would not infinite you if you made an error in your movement.

They will weigh the potential ability of the move, how easy it can be performed, how it limits overall gameplay etc etc.

 

[Hylian]

Not true.
the only one that DDD can infinite chain throw is Donkey Kong. The others tend to escape around 40% or higher depending on DI as well as their size.
the Ice climbers are the only ones with a true infinite on every character.

Marth has an infinite only on Ness/Lucas via chain grabbing.



Different as in how? Isn't the CG the same regardless of how much damage is being done? This is an honest question since I do not know much about the IC chain grab.


in anycase I believe the reason the IC infinite chaingrab has been banned is simply because while it is harder to desync Nana and Popo, it is easier too grab your opponent in this game.
With the lack of L canceling and wavedashing the IC's don't have as a great a trouble grabbing an opponent as they would have in melee.



Another method was also via wavedashing and L canceling. Mainly so you could stay out of the grab range of Nana and popo and remain in the air where it harder for them to grab you.



A bit of an exaggeration. The IC chain grab isn't a prime reason for players to try and avoid being chaingrabbed or grabbed at all when fcing any character.
Players will always go with the safest and most damaging method when facing an opponent.
Maximize damage output and minimize damage being taken that is a general rule for all fighting games.
You mentioned yourself that the key to fighting Ice Climbers is to separate them. I don't believe infinite chaingrabbing is hardly a reason for any good player to not do so.



Worst case scenario is that wobbling gets banned by some tournaments and is not banned by other tournaments. Its similar to what happened in melee.
We don't need to see the potential effects or if it is going to be a predominant strategy.
If its not banned the player WILL use it. Simply because they are playing to win.
Not to say they won't use other strategies but if the oppurtnity for wobbling occurs (which it tends to do so moreso in this game IMO) why would the IC player give up the chance?

It was mentioned by a previuos poster that infinites in other fighting games was allowed.
Key difference is that in those fighting games multiple characters had infinites.In WC2 and MVC2 infinites were capable of being used by a great majority of the characters in the game. So it did balance out in such a comparison. Yeah your magneto could use an infinite bu Spiderman could use an infinite( or near infinite my memory is poor) on you as well so it wasn't as if there was a limit on the options available to both characters.

It wasn't as if it were character specific in a specific situation.
This is also akin to SSB64 where all the characters were capable of 0%-KO percentage combos. The only difference was the amount of situations available to that character in order for them to pull of the said infinite.


In SSBB the only characters capable of an infinite are the Ice Climbers and it is usable against all the other characters. None of the other characters are capable of using their own infinites so it isnt as balanced by such a comparison.
The other character Marth and DDD can't infinite all the other characters either.
Marth can only do it against Ness/Lucas
and DDD while he can chaingrab cannot do it for an infinite amount of time unless its Donkey Kong so your opponent can still escape if they are any other character. The other 4 you mentioned do tend to get chaingrabbed for a longer period but can escape.

It is understandable why wobbling would be banned. If only one character is capable of an infinite why should it be allowed if other characters do not have an infinite of their own?
Why allow something that basically limits your opponent to acmping where they are facing a jigglypuff minus the rest? It is understandable.

on the other hand by limiting wobbling you do limit the number of strategies that the IC user has with them. While wobbling isn't a key strategy (to my limited knowledge on the IC's I don't believe it is) itwould be similar to disallowing the use of Bowser's koopacide.
Simply because it can be avoided and in general, isn;t your opponent going to punish a mistake as harshly as possible? I honestly cannot see a reason as to why a Link user in SSB64 would not infinite you if you made an error in your movement.

They will weigh the potential ability of the move, how easy it can be performed, how it limits overall gameplay etc etc.

Did you even read the topic? Everything you said has already been said for the most part. And you have some of your facts wrong.

 

[Xyro77]

Dear god there are too many posts to respond to and they are all about the same thing.

Ok guys, it seems that no matter how i explain it, you will either not see it or you will jus continue to argue. If you TRULY wish to fight/argue the ICG thing, lets do it over PMs cause this thread is going no where.

Underdog/samurai/hylian are always welcome to PM me about this. 07-08 members.........plz dont, unless god tells you to.

I know the texas/houston scene well and i know for a fact that banning the ICG will not affect the texas smash scene at all. Cause like hylian said, there are other zero-deaths that are "easier" and more "effective" than the ICG. If thats the case, then me banning the ICG will do no damage.

Black listing tournaments because of a ban(its really a reduction) is rather dumb since the IC population is low anyways AND there are "better" and "easier" zero-deaths IC have.

This is my last post here in this thread. If you have the NEED to argue me, plz PM me. I WILL answer your PMs.

PS: for what its worth, i apologize to the 07-08 members. SOME of you have added much to the ssbb scene and that i am thankful for. Those are the only ones i apologize too. To the rest of the 07-08 members: you will get smart one day.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Another method was also via wavedashing and L canceling. Mainly so you could stay out of the grab range of Nana and popo and remain in the air where it harder for them to grab you.

So what you're saying is...in addition to "avoid being grabbed" and "separate Nana from Popo", you can also..."avoid being grabbed"?

A bit of an exaggeration. The IC chain grab isn't a prime reason for players to try and avoid being chaingrabbed or grabbed at all when fcing any character.
Players will always go with the safest and most damaging method when facing an opponent.
Maximize damage output and minimize damage being taken that is a general rule for all fighting games.
You mentioned yourself that the key to fighting Ice Climbers is to separate them. I don't believe infinite chaingrabbing is hardly a reason for any good player to not do so.

The reinforcement of it to a point where "if you mess up, you're dead," seems like good practice and motivation to me.

Worst case scenario is that wobbling gets banned by some tournaments and is not banned by other tournaments. Its similar to what happened in melee.
We don't need to see the potential effects or if it is going to be a predominant strategy.
If its not banned the player WILL use it. Simply because they are playing to win.
Not to say they won't use other strategies but if the oppurtnity for wobbling occurs (which it tends to do so moreso in this game IMO) why would the IC player give up the chance?

I don't mean "dominant" as in "every Ice Climber player is going to use this technique," I mean "dominant" as in "every Ice Climber player is beating everyone else with this technique and winning consistently as a result of it."

In SSBB the only characters capable of an infinite are the Ice Climbers and it is usable against all the other characters. None of the other characters are capable of using their own infinites so it isnt as balanced by such a comparison.
The other character Marth and DDD can't infinite all the other characters either.
Marth can only do it against Ness/Lucas
and DDD while he can chaingrab cannot do it for an infinite amount of time unless its Donkey Kong so your opponent can still escape if they are any other character. The other 4 you mentioned do tend to get chaingrabbed for a longer period but can escape.

It is understandable why wobbling would be banned. If only one character is capable of an infinite why should it be allowed if other characters do not have an infinite of their own?

Yeah, it's completely understandable to limit a character's ability to punish in attempt to re-balance its abilities to stabilize the competitive environment without any evidence of instability. Wait, no, it's not. It's not our business to re-balance the gameplay like that and as far as I'm concerned, removing their ability to punish like that is removing character individuality. If you're going to do that, you can always play Street Fighter 1.

I mean, think about it. In Melee, isn't it ridiculous that Fox has a 1-frame move, that in combination with another technique, can combo into basically all of his other moves, in addition to its ability to gimp people as low as 0%? Oh, and it reflects projectiles. Let's get rid of that, it's unfair he has that kind of versatility.

The only time an inbalance in abilities would become a problem is if the Ice Climbers themselves are the only viable option to win in tournament play. Are they? Far, FAR from it.

Why allow something that basically limits your opponent to acmping where they are facing a jigglypuff minus the rest? It is understandable.

Are we both playing Brawl or are you still playing Melee?

 

[Alou]

Dear god there are too many posts to respond to and they are all about the same thing.

Ok guys, it seems that no matter how i explain it, you will either not see it or you will jus continue to argue. If you TRULY wish to fight/argue the ICG thing, lets do it over PMs cause this thread is going no where.

Underdog/samurai/hylian are always welcome to PM me about this. 07-08 members.........plz dont, unless god tells you to.

I know the texas/houston scene well and i know for a fact that banning the ICG will not affect the texas smash scene at all. Cause like hylian said, there are other zero-deaths that are "easier" and more "effective" than the ICG. If thats the case, then me banning the ICG will do no damage.

Black listing tournaments because of a ban(its really a reduction) is rather dumb since the IC population is low anyways AND there are "better" and "easier" zero-deaths IC have.

This is my last post here in this thread. If you have the NEED to argue me, plz PM me. I WILL answer your PMs.

PS: for what its worth, i apologize to the 07-08 members. SOME of you have added much to the ssbb scene and that i am thankful for. Those are the only ones i apologize too. To the rest of the 07-08 members: you will get smart one day.

Well if the other zero-deaths are easier and more effective, then why should you ban the Ice Climber ones? More people would rather go towards those and since the crowd is so small for people who use IC, then these grabs should honestly not cause any problem.

Banning them now is not exactly a good thing to do. If it gets to the point where tons of people are just using IC and its ruining the competitive scene than yeah banning can be an option and I'll actually see it as something that could be an option, but right now:

A) Just not enough IC for the grabs to cause to much problems.

B) There are easier and more effective grabs that aren't banned.

C) It's to early to decide on banning specifics just yet.

Also Thank You for the apology. I can understand that some 07-08 people can be disrespectful and us newer players can be nuisances at times, but we were all new once and ALL players should be treated the same.

Edit: Spelling mistake spotted.

 

[Ace83]

but we were all new once

new to swf doesn't mean new to the game, at all.

 

[Alou]

new to swf doesn't mean new to the game, at all.

I never said that. I meant that we have all been new to the game and that even though it says 07-08 that doesn't mean our opinions shouldn't be read or viewed as unimportant.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Why is this thread still alive? The TO obviously lacks a brain and won't listen to reason, so why bother arguing. I'm just glad this scrub doesn't run any tourneys in NC.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So what you're saying is...in addition to "avoid being grabbed" and "separate Nana from Popo", you can also..."avoid being grabbed"?

Ugh no rather that the options available in melee that allowed the avoidance of being placed in a wobble was greater than it is in Brawl.

The reinforcement of it to a point where "if you mess up, you're dead," seems like good practice and motivation to me.

Yes but as I pointed out it can be viewed as too harsh a punishment, mainly because of the fact that infinites are not as widespread in other games.

I don't mean "dominant" as in "every Ice Climber player is going to use this technique," I mean "dominant" as in "every Ice Climber player is beating everyone else with this technique and winning consistently as a result of it."

mmk wasn't too sure earlier.

Yeah, it's completely understandable to limit a character's ability to punish in attempt to re-balance its abilities to stabilize the competitive environment without any evidence of instability. Wait, no, it's not. It's not our business to re-balance the gameplay like that and as far as I'm concerned, removing their ability to punish like that is removing character individuality. If you're going to do that, you can always play Street Fighter 1.

Without evidence?
Melee provided evidence concerning the potential strength of wobbling. It was the main reason some tournaments banned it because fo the fact that it was deemed too powerful regardless of the difficulty.
As I mentioned earlier it isn't as if every other character has an infinite and therefore balances things out, the IC's are really the only ones with a true infinite via chaingrabbing.
As such if one compares the abilities of each character and move sbased on infinite combos or near death combos, it can be seen as ban worthy.

I mean, think about it. In Melee, isn't it ridiculous that Fox has a 1-frame move, that in combination with another technique, can combo into basically all of his other moves, in addition to its ability to gimp people as low as 0%? Oh, and it reflects projectiles. Let's get rid of that, it's unfair he has that kind of versatility.

Yes and notice how they banned wall stages to prevent infinite drill shine?
Except in this instance the IC chaingrab can be done without such a requirement.
Drillshine needed to be done up against a wall, wobbling can be done with or without a wall.
Both were difficult to accomplish.
Yet both were banned in several tournaments because of their potential ability.
No one is saying you can't chaingrab but that you can't do an infinite chaingrab.

As I said I am only providing reasons as to why they may ban it. I can care less if they ban it or not.
I know full well how to avoid it and prevent it entirely.

It isn't what it is currently doing that concerns people when it comes to banning, rather the potential that it entails.

The only time an inbalance in abilities would become a problem is if the Ice Climbers themselves are the only viable option to win in tournament play. Are they? Far, FAR from it.

Neither was drillshining but hey they tried to have it banned too didn't they?
Simply because your strategy doesn't hinge on it doesn't mean it isn't on the grounds for being banned, if anything the argument can be turned around to say that because the IC's do not rely on it, it makes no difference as to it being banned.

Are we both playing Brawl or are you still playing Melee?

You missed the point of the analogy.

The second part of my argument concerning the grounds of a banning were this.
If the said tactic limits the game, has the ability to break the game down to a , who hit first generally is looked upon as to whether or not it would be banned.
In general they normally banned whatever setting was needed to cause the infinite.
Drillshining or infinites against walls so they banned stages with walls.
With wobbling such a thing is more difficult because there is nothing to be controlled other than the actual manuever itself.

Did you even read the topic? Everything you said has already been said for the most part. And you have some of your facts wrong.

Tried but the school computers don't mesh with Smashboards too well.
I wasn't too sure about some of the things I posted can you tell me where I messed up?

 

[M3D]

I said this in the other thread, but I wanted to make an appearance here as well. Banning the IC infinite at this stage of the game is completely moronic. The players have the power to fix it. Just don't go to a tournament hosted by Xyro or any other with this rule. Then the TO either has to change the rule or waste his/her efforts planning something that no one would come to.

 

[Chronopath]

Dear god there are too many posts to respond to and they are all about the same thing.

Ok guys, it seems that no matter how i explain it, you will either not see it or you will jus continue to argue. If you TRULY wish to fight/argue the ICG thing, lets do it over PMs cause this thread is going no where.

Underdog/samurai/hylian are always welcome to PM me about this. 07-08 members.........plz dont, unless god tells you to.

I know the texas/houston scene well and i know for a fact that banning the ICG will not affect the texas smash scene at all. Cause like hylian said, there are other zero-deaths that are "easier" and more "effective" than the ICG. If thats the case, then me banning the ICG will do no damage.

Black listing tournaments because of a ban(its really a reduction) is rather dumb since the IC population is low anyways AND there are "better" and "easier" zero-deaths IC have.

This is my last post here in this thread. If you have the NEED to argue me, plz PM me. I WILL answer your PMs.

PS: for what its worth, i apologize to the 07-08 members. SOME of you have added much to the ssbb scene and that i am thankful for. Those are the only ones i apologize too. To the rest of the 07-08 members: you will get smart one day.

Shut the **** up with this 07-08 member ****. Stop acting all high and mighty. It's not like you are a well known player or anything. Oh cool, you have an old user name, good for you. Stop acting like you know anything about super smash brothers. What have you brought or added to the ssbb or ssb scene in general that makes you so much better than us 07-08 members? And if you're going to act elitist, atleast use proper ****ing grammar.

 

[Overswarm]

Did anyone else lol at him avoiding my post?

He throws out this list of 9 garbage to half the people that post here and when someone finally quotes it and dissects it, he just lumps it in with another post and says "wow, too many posts".

GG sir. Too smart for me. -_-;;

 

[ShadowLink84]

Shut the **** up with this 07-08 member ****. Stop acting all high and mighty. It's not like you are a well known player or anything. Oh cool, you have an old user name, good for you. Stop acting like you know anything about super smash brothers. What have you brought or added to the ssbb or ssb scene in general that makes you so much better than us 07-08 members? And if you're going to act elitist, atleast use proper ****ing grammar.

Just so you know, most of what has been added to SSB and SSBB and SSBM were dne so by a minority of competitive players.
The same person who discovered moonwalking is the same one who has been providing the majority of information concerning the smash bros series.
This means everyone who has not contributed is a n00b.

The main reason for anger against late 07 and early 08'ers is ebcause the majority of them spout stupidity. Or act like fools.
Or contribute such things as the Grand viper.
*shrug*
Its stupid for biases to occur but it happens. Only ebcause the idiots are louder than the smart ones.

 

[Overswarm]

I guess you do make sense ShadowLink84. Now that I think about it, there is a higher amount of stupidty coming from people with 07-08 join dates and people with super generic usernames.

Wasn't your partner UltraMarth9000 in the last tournament? I think I saw a video of you two.

 

[Mr.C]

I said this in the other thread, but I wanted to make an appearance here as well. Banning the IC infinite at this stage of the game is completely moronic. The players have the power to fix it. Just don't go to a tournament hosted by Xyro or any other with this rule. Then the TO either has to change the rule or waste his/her efforts planning something that no one would come to.

Moronic? Not really, if certain TO's decide they don't want ICG being allowed then thats their decision. Just like some tournaments banned wobbling and others didn't. Whats moronic is you saying something like that lol.

@ The people who are saying "don't ban the ICG unless Icy's start dominating tournaments" thats ridiculous. Did we see Peach players dominating the scene because Wall Bombing? or Icy's dominating tournaments because the Freeze Glitch? no. You ban things because they hurt the community and smash tournaments, the ICG does just that. Now, do I care whether its banned or not? not at all. If one tournament allows the ICG then the Ice Climbers players can use it to its fullest potential, if the ICG isn't allowed at certain tournaments then they can use other grab combo's, its pretty simple. There is no need to complain.

The same person who discovered moonwalking is the same one who has been providing the majority of information concerning the smash bros series.

Pretty sure I discovered the Moonwalk (in Melee) lol and I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about me lol. So who is this person you are talking about? :]

 

[DMG]

As I mentioned earlier it isn't as if every other character has an infinite and therefore balances things out, the IC's are really the only ones with a true infinite via chaingrabbing.

Samus and the others do not get out of Dedede's Infinite Grab. You must use at least one grab jab before each throw to negate the stale moves effect but otherwise Dedede can still Chain Mario, Luigi, Samus, DK, and Bowser.

Drillshine needed to be done up against a wall, wobbling can be done with or without a wall.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KKj89CEOe7U

There are a few times in the vid where Zelgadis uses the drillshine to where it would be an infinite WITHOUT a wall. He just stopped most of them early because he already had a guarunteed kill with upsmash. It works on a lot of characters and all you need to do is Waveshine then Drillshine and have the shine hit on alternating sides. EX: You drillshine them and they are knocked back to the left. You Waveshine then Drillkick and land on their left side. When you shine they will now go to the right. Repeat for an infinite.

Ugh no rather that the options available in melee that allowed the avoidance of being placed in a wobble was greater than now.

What??? IC in Melee had Wavedashing and probably a better grab range.
In Brawl they have a horrible grab range and they don't have a faster method om moving than running. There are wayyyy more opportunities to avoid being grabbed in Brawl than Melee when it comes to IC.

It isn't what it is currently doing that concerns people when it comes to banning, rather the potential that it entails.

Fox's Shine had the ability to cancel ANY attack since it came out on the first frame and made Fox practically invincible for a few frames. It has the most potential of any move in Melee simply because in theory it could stop anything. Was it banned? No.

Until lots of tournaments are won with IC chain grabbing or if they all turn into IC ditto's then yes there is a good reason to ban it. Otherwise it is probably more detrimental to ban this so early.

 

[Mr.C]

There are a few times in the vid where Zelgadis uses the drillshine to where it would be an infinite WITHOUT a wall. He just stopped most of them early because he already had a guarunteed kill with upsmash. It works on a lot of characters and all you need to do is Waveshine then Drillshine and have the shine hit on alternating sides. EX: You drillshine them and they are knocked back to the left. You Waveshine then Drillkick and land on their left side. When you shine they will now go to the right. Repeat for an infinite.

How many people could consistently do more than 1-2 reps in major tournaments? zero. lol
And in case you didn't know almost everyone could DI out of the "infinite shine" DI the dair and the shine, home free. That's why most people just ended with shine upsmash or in rare cases they could get off two reps vs skilled players at least.

Fox's Shine had the ability to cancel ANY attack since it came out on the first frame and made Fox practically invincible for a few frames. It has the most potential of any move in Melee simply because in theory it could stop anything. Was it banned? No.

Shine is a move, ICG is a technique, it would be impossible to ban a move a character could do. That's like banning Peach's downsmash.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Without evidence?
Melee provided evidence concerning the potential strength of wobbling. It was the main reason some tournaments banned it because fo the fact that it was deemed too powerfulr egardless of the difficulty.

The only "evidence" we got for banning Wobbling were people complaining. It's really hilarious and ironic looking back and seeing the only major tournament won by an Ice Climber had banned Wobbling. Pound 2, ChuDat.

As I mentioned earlier it isn't as if every other character has an infinite and therefore balances things out, the IC's are really the only ones with a true infinite via chaingrabbing.
As such if one compares the abilities of each character and move sbased on infinite combos or near death combos, it can be seen as ban worthy.

I'm still not seeing it. Because their individuality is an infinite, it's bad? Is that what you're saying? If so, why would limiting it be a good thing?

Yes and notice how they banned wall stages to prevent infinite drill shine?
Except in this instance the IC chaingrab can be done without sucha requirement.
Drillshine needed to be done up against a wall, wobbling can be done with or without a wall.
Both were difficult to accomplish.

Yet both were banned in several tournaments because of their potential ability.

And yet Melee still had Stadium (As a neutral), Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats...in fact, looking back at the Melee stage selection, it seems like the stages that were banned and had walls (Hyrule, Onett, Venom, Peach's Castle, and Fourside, all had a much much larger problem with camping than they did with infinite combos.

No one is saying you can't chaingrab but that you can't do an infinite chaingrab.

How many repetitions are fair, then? 1? 3? 5? 20? How exactly do we determine what is fair in that case?

It isn't what it is currently doing that concerns people when it comes to banning, rather the potential that it entails.

Banning something for potential that may not even exist to begin with is terrible.

Neither was drillshining but hey they tried to have it banned too didn't they?
Simply because your strategy doesn't hinge on it doesn't mean it isn't on the grounds for being banned, if anything the argument can be turned around to say that because the IC's do not rely on it, it makes no difference as to it being banned.

...they tried to ban drillshining? Or do you mean the infinite drillshine, in which case I mentioned earlier in this reply why it's still allowed.

And if the Ice Climbers don't rely on it, to a point where banning it won't affect them whatsoever, why ban it in the first place?

You missed the point of the analogy.

The second part of my argument concerning the grounds of a banning were this.
If the said tactic limits the game, has the ability to break the game down to a , who hit first generally is looked upon as to whether or not it would be banned.
In general they normally banned whatever setting was needed to cause the infinite.
Drillshining or infinites against walls so they banned stages with walls.
With wobbling such a thing is more difficult because there is nothing to be controlled other than the actual manuever itself.

Walled stages are still playable, some walled stages had camping issues, etc etc etc

not to mention that "who hit first" applying to a match will usually only apply with stalling tactics. don't worry, I'm sure stalling forever with ICG will be banned either way.



The entire point of your post:

As I said I am only providing reasons as to why they may ban it. I can care less if they ban it or not.

The entire point of mine:
And I'm saying that banning it this early in the game without sufficient evidence for banning it isn't very intelligent.

How many people could consistently do more than 1-2 reps in major tournaments? zero. lol

MoFo.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I guess you do make sense ShadowLink84. Now that I think about it, there is a higher amount of stupidty coming from people with 07-08 join dates and people with super generic usernames.

Wasn't your partner UltraMarth9000 in the last tournament? I think I saw a video of you two.

No I am not the same ShadowLink.
I believe that was number 80. Not too sure.

I've been to busy with my college classes to go to any tournaments T_T

I need to start going again once I am done.

The only "evidence" we got for banning Wobbling were people complaining. It's really hilarious and ironic looking back and seeing the only major tournament won by an Ice Climber had banned Wobbling. Pound 2, ChuDat.

yes and that was reason enough for the ban apparently.
based on the current game of Brawl it seems as if wobbling would be more powerful than last time. Mainly since I could see it being effective as a defensive tool.

I'm still not seeing it. Because their individuality is an infinite, it's bad? Is that what you're saying? If so, why would limiting it be a good thing?

Partly.
It is ebcause they are the only ones with a true infinite that it would be banned.
If it were similar to MCV2 every character had an infinite it would be more accepted, because it wouldn't appear so powerful.

If you have five blue fingers they won't stand out as much compared to if you only had one red one.

And yet Melee still had Stadium (As a neutral), Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, and Pokefloats...in fact, looking back at the Melee stage selection, it seems like the stages that were banned and had walls (Hyrule, Onett, Venom, Peach's Castle, and Fourside, all had a much much larger problem with camping than they did with infinite combos.

Camping wasn't the only justification for the ban though remember?
It was also the stalling tactics on those stages.
I am probably thinkking of camping as in stay in a spot and using defensive play rather than constantly running away though.

How many repetitions are fair, then? 1? 3? 5? 20? How exactly do we determine what is fair in that case?

Who knows? I am not in the SBR or regular BR to find out what they are thinking about the issues concerning IC's.
Main reason I mention the BR and SBR is because they tend to affect the behavior of tournaments at times.

Banning something for potential that may not even exist to begin with is terrible.

Except the infinite chain grab does exist. There are two variations one involving the B throw and one involving the D throw.
They ban more on obvious potential rather than apparent potential.

...they tried to ban drillshining? Or do you mean the infinite drillshine, in which case I mentioned earlier in this reply why it's still allowed.

Infinite drillshine and really its allowed?
Yes they actually did.
I don't remember clearly but I believed like wobbling it was banned in several tournaments.
Not too clear on my SSBm history though sorry =(

And if the Ice Climbers don't rely on it, to a point where banning it won't affect them whatsoever, why ban it in the first place?

because it doesn't affect their overall gameplay.
Similar to tossing out an unnecessary cog.
Unless it really hurt the IC game they probably wouldn't think banning an infinite CG would be too great.

Walled stages are still playable, some walled stages had camping issues, etc etc etc

not to mention that "who hit first" applying to a match will usually only apply with stalling tactics. don't worry, I'm sure stalling forever with ICG will be banned either way.

yeah I forgot to bring up that issue as well. Stalling rather.

And I'm saying that banning it this early in the game without sufficient evidence for banning it isn't very intelligent.

Probably but I think it perhaps won't require as much evidence in brawl as it did in melee.
I think its slightly more apparent though because of defensive play and how shield grabbing is so much better this time around. >.<
At least in melee there were some more ways to avoid getting grabbed.
I get grabbed twice as muchin Brawl, as I would get grabbed in melee.

MoFo.

Um uh MYOB!
Crap I failed.

Samus and the others do not get out of Dedede's Infinite Grab. You must use at least one grab jab before each throw to negate the stale moves effect but otherwise Dedede can still Chain Mario, Luigi, Samus, DK, and Bowser.

The topic concerning DDD's infinite chaingrab stated that they could escape after a certain percentage. While Donkey Kong was stuck in it forever.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KKj89CEOe7U

There are a few times in the vid where Zelgadis uses the drillshine to where it would be an infinite WITHOUT a wall. He just stopped most of them early because he already had a guarunteed kill with upsmash. It works on a lot of characters and all you need to do is Waveshine then Drillshine and have the shine hit on alternating sides. EX: You drillshine them and they are knocked back to the left. You Waveshine then Drillkick and land on their left side. When you shine they will now go to the right. Repeat for an infinite.

Yes except in general not many could pull of drillshining with such a setting.
Drillshining was more easily done with a wall than it was without a wall.
Even then a few tournaments did ban drill shining.

What??? IC in Melee had Wavedashing and probably a better grab range.
In Brawl they have a horrible grab range and they don't have a faster method om moving than running. There are wayyyy more opportunities to avoid being grabbed in Brawl than Melee when it comes to IC.

the IC's grab range has not changed from melee to brawl.
As for wavedashing into a grab
That requires good prediction on the IC users account. Unless the IC user wavedashed before or at the same time, their grab range wasn't going to be helped too greatly.
Not to say they can't do it but that there were more viable options for the IC user when wavedashing without having to rely on prediction as greatly.

L canceling is another way of avoid being grabbed since its obviuosly easier to grab an opponent who is grunded and L canceling allowed characters such as Ice CLimbers and Ganandorf from being stuck on the ground for a long period of time.
Brawl is more grounded making it easier to grab.
I don't believe people would be pissed about DDD's CG if they could L cancel and wavedash.

Fox's Shine had the ability to cancel ANY attack since it came out on the first frame and made Fox practically invincible for a few frames. It has the most potential of any move in Melee simply because in theory it could stop anything. Was it banned? No.

Hey let's ban Link;s arrows from melee.
Massive priority, can gimp, can link into a combo.

It's a part of the characters moveset not an actual technique. They won't ban a move.
There other moves that allow you to cancel other attacks as well even if they couldn't be applied as easily.
A fox would not win a game by spamming his shine over and over.

IC's however its a technique for them.

Until lots of tournaments are won with IC chain grabbing or if they all turn into IC ditto's then yes there is a good reason to ban it. Otherwise it is probably more detrimental to ban this so early.

Wait until the extreme occurs before banning?
We didn't see that with wobbling in SSBM why would that change now?

Unless it hurts the IC user's game completely, as in makes them completely incapable of being used, I don't see why they would see it as causing harm to ban it.

I have to go to chem class now =(


Anyone want to play me in Brawl later?

 

[ShadowLink84]

bad comp

10char

 

[Lightning Ice]

This will probably get ignored (again) because I'm an 07 user *gasp*. But people don't seem to see why you wait before banning a tactic unless it is obviously for the intent of stalling. If you ban everything instantly you have no time to find a way around it. One tournament is not enough to deem a tactic as unbeatable. I spent a grand total of about 2 minutes looking for a way out of their chain grab and I've already found why it isn't as infinite as people make it out to be. Many people think that once you get grabbed it is over, which is simply not true. I spent about 2 minutes going to training mode, grabbing someone and then trying to mash my way out and at 1/4 speed I could get out before nana recovered form the dash grab animation at 150%. At normal speed I could get out at 65% and that's with the time I have to spend to grab the other controller. People could easily learn to react fast enough and get out 80% and maybe even more, at which point a charge smash can usually kill you. And also, this is considering that the IC start the infinite right after they can, which is very hard considering the timing and Nana's habits of sliding around to get behind you. Try learning to deal with something instead of crying for a ban.

 

[KRDsonic]

If hylian can easily infinite with only the 3 grab rule, then I'll be the only one affected by the outcome of this topic :/ (unless another Ice Climber user apears some day). I feel like I'm being punnished for nothing since I'm the only other one that used them at Xyro's last tournament...

 

[theguyfromlabyrinth]

yes and that was reason enough for the ban apparently.

I think you misread - he said that ChuDat, the only IC player to win a major tournament, won one where wobbling WAS banned. Which would not be a reason to ban it. Or to double-ban it, in this case.

Who knows? I am not in the SBR or regular BR to find out what they are thinking about the issues concerning IC's.
Main reason I mention the BR and SBR is because they tend to affect the behavior of tournaments at times.

A few BRoomers have already posted in this thread saying it's too early to instigate a ban.

I guess you do make sense ShadowLink84. Now that I think about it, there is a higher amount of stupidty coming from people with 07-08 join dates and people with super generic usernames.

Wasn't your partner UltraMarth9000 in the last tournament? I think I saw a video of you two.

i love you a bit for this

 

[wWw Dazwa]

yes and that was reason enough for the ban apparently.
based on the current game of Brawl it seems as if wobbling would be more powerful than last time. Mainly since I could see it being effective as a defensive tool.

It seemed more like people were banning it not for actual reason, but because they just didn't like the concept of a OHKO from the center of a stage (it was more or less a gimp from anywhere). I never agreed with that mentality, but I can see why there'd be arguments over it. I'd be all for banning it if it turned into the only thing viable in the competitive scene.

Partly.
It is ebcause they are the only ones with a true infinite that it would be banned.
If it were similar to MCV2 every character had an infinite it would be more accepted, because it wouldn't appear so powerful.

If you have five blue fingers they won't stand out as much compared to if you only had one red one.

Why have a fighting game with 5 blue fingers? Wouldn't it be better to have a red one, a blue one, a green one, a yellow one, and a thumb?

Camping wasn't the only justification for the ban though remember?
It was also the stalling tactics on those stages.
I am probably thinkking of camping as in stay in a spot and using defensive play rather than constantly running away though.

Yeah, I meant camping more as in stalling. My bad.

Who knows? I am not in the SBR or regular BR to find out what they are thinking about the issues concerning IC's.
Main reason I mention the BR and SBR is because they tend to affect the behavior of tournaments at times.

I honestly don't think they'd be able to and find an actual fair solution outside of not banning it in the first place, or not allowing a single regrab (and by regrab, I mean of course the grab where nana grabs immediately etc., not a dthrow fair regrab.)

Yeah, most likely they're going to be the ones laying down the commonly used rules, so it'll be up to them in the end.

Except the infinite chain grab does exist. There are two variations one involving the B throw and one involving the D throw.
They ban more on obvious potential rather than apparent potential.

Oh, I know it exists, I meant more like "the potential to ruin and stagnate the competitiveness of the game"

Infinite drillshine and really its allowed?
Yes they actually did originally. That was a long time ago so I am probably going back too far and placing it in present times. Sorry.

Well I mean with the stages I mentioned earlier, it's still possible to perform, and very much allowed.

because it doesn't affect their overall gameplay.
Similar to tossing out an unnecessary cog.
Unless it really hurt the IC game they probably wouldn't think banning an infinite CG would be too great.

Again, why ban it in the first place? Don't fix what isn't broken, right?

Probably but I think it perhaps won't require as much evidence in brawl as it did in melee.
I think its slightly more apparent though because of defensive play and how shield grabbing is so much better this time around. >.<
At least in melee there were some more ways to avoid getting grabbed.
Least from what I have seen.

L-cancelling helped, wavedashing not so much. If anything it helped the Ice Climbers since they had such a long wavedash.

Um uh MYOB!
Crap I failed.

wat


EDIT: And while people are still talking about it, giving users flak for having an 07-08 join date is stupid.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

Dear god there are too many posts to respond to and they are all about the same thing.

Ok guys, it seems that no matter how i explain it, you will either not see it or you will jus continue to argue. If you TRULY wish to fight/argue the ICG thing, lets do it over PMs cause this thread is going no where.

Underdog/samurai/hylian are always welcome to PM me about this. 07-08 members.........plz dont, unless god tells you to.

I know the texas/houston scene well and i know for a fact that banning the ICG will not affect the texas smash scene at all. Cause like hylian said, there are other zero-deaths that are "easier" and more "effective" than the ICG. If thats the case, then me banning the ICG will do no damage.

Black listing tournaments because of a ban(its really a reduction) is rather dumb since the IC population is low anyways AND there are "better" and "easier" zero-deaths IC have.

This is my last post here in this thread. If you have the NEED to argue me, plz PM me. I WILL answer your PMs.

PS: for what its worth, i apologize to the 07-08 members. SOME of you have added much to the ssbb scene and that i am thankful for. Those are the only ones i apologize too. To the rest of the 07-08 members: you will get smart one day.

Would you mind stop spouting about 07-08 members lacking intelligence and ignoring posts like owerswarm's and try to refute some of their arguments.

It also gets to me how it's ok banning it because of few players using IC's, seriously, what kind of argument is that?

What I don't get at all though is how you have to hold on to that ban you made when the IC's have better and easier zero deaths (i woudln't know btw) as you claim. Where's the logic in that.

I don't even need to argue against this ban myself as other posters have already brought up grear arguments.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

All, I have to say is a move is move, and it has ways to be broken out of.

 

[Alou]

Did anyone else lol at him avoiding my post?

He throws out this list of 9 garbage to half the people that post here and when someone finally quotes it and dissects it, he just lumps it in with another post and says "wow, too many posts".

GG sir. Too smart for me. -_-;;

Copy and paste it again, he said he'd respond it to in the morning but obviously forgot.

 

[DYF]

Did anyone else lol at him avoiding my post?

He throws out this list of 9 garbage to half the people that post here and when someone finally quotes it and dissects it, he just lumps it in with another post and says "wow, too many posts".

GG sir. Too smart for me. -_-;;

I laughed out loud.

 

[Mr.C]

I am Athene, best paladin in the world.

 

[Corner-Trap]

TGM's reputation just went down the toilet.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I am Athene, best paladin in the world.

You're pro or you're a noob.

That's life.

 

[Overswarm]

KAMEHAMEHAAAAAAAAA

UndrDog, as an 04 member you have seen and exprienced LOTS AND LOTS of things like i have. So i would think that you will understand where im coming from even though you may not AGREE with it. All my reasoning is in this section below. Every thing i have typed is TRUE. Some say i shouldnt ban it so early while othe say i shouldnt ban it at all. I say, i dislike a move that at be escaped out of unless the IC mess up.

This part isnt aimed at you UndrDog.

I declare that if any one responds to my posts in a way that shows they did not read the below section, i will respond to you with the same section you should have read.

I'm going to go ahead and say this:

You're an 04 member but.... who are you?


That didn't make you feel very good, did it? Someone who has traveled the country, been flown to New York to write about Ken and Azen playing head to head, won smash tournaments, been placed in the back room, laughed and played with M3D, Alpha Zealot, the Kishes, JV, and some of the other biggest contributers to the smash community saying that must either make you very depressed, embarassed, or angry.

Now, seeing as I can puff up my chest and ego with similar statements to the above, if I told you that Zelda shouldn't be allowed to change into Sheik because it was broken for her to have two characters, would my standing and experience make me any more or less wrong?

Experience is a big factor in any decision because experience = stimulated brain. Whether you picked up the lessons or not is a different story. Seeing as how you're banning IC chain grabs... well that just goes to show that some people need to take notes in class.


That said, you can't just take someone's join date as a give or take all method of debate. You use words and your brain.

So without further ado, I present wall of text:

1. Lets talk melee for a sec. In melee wobbling/infinite chain grabbing(ICG) were never OFFICIALy banned. The back room took the easy way out(are were afraid of the backlash if they decided to ban it) and decided to let the tournament host create the rules. So in Brawl, I dont give a **** about backlash and i will take the stand of stoping the train wreck before it happens. And what i mean by that is this: i have seen time and time again(and most of you have to, although u wont admit it) that there have been matches in melee and brawl where player 1 is clearly better than player 2 (based of of previous tourney placings/MMs) but yet player 2 pulls off a wobble or ICG due to a single grab and take a match from player 1. Tell me is this "fair"?

Good thing you know what goes on in the back room. Afraid of backlash? Backlash of whom? What would they do? The back room does what it does to make a better smash community and to make sure all the people that help it grow are on the same page and know all their options. We aren't afraid of "backlash".

That said, it was discussed. Thoroughly. At length. Over and over and over again.

It wasn't banned because it didn't fit the criteria. For one, it didn't win tournaments. There were two players that used Wobbling that placed well. Wobbles and Chu Dat.

TOs that were inexperienced or were afraid of low attendance numbers or just plain biased against it since they didn't play ICs went ahead and banned it in droves.

Wobbles and Chu Dat still went to tournaments.

Upon reviewing their placement in several tournaments, we discovered that they were, oddly enough, consistent! Surprisingly, Chu Dat actually placed LOWER at all tournaments that allowed Wobbling (and no, it wasn't because he didn't use it and/or got wobbled himself). Removing wobbling did little more than removing Fox's back throw to shine spike would. It was just a technique that added to the character, not the character itself, nor the player.

Sure, there were a few players out there that picked up ICs, learned to Wobble, and won a match or two. Where did they win these matches? At the bottom of the round robin. These players didn't even make it into brackets. The only reason they won their matches using wobbling was because they were playing against equally inexperienced opponents that didn't know what to do.

So far, we've already determined

1. Melee's history shows, with evidence in tournament placing as well as circumstantial evidence through friendlies and months of discussion with the SBR, that an infinite after a grab does not equal a tournament win. You cannot use this as backing.

2. You assume things, because you assumed what happened in the back room when you yourself are not a member. I am, so take my word for it.

2. Dont get grabed! Play smarter! Again, these are common counter attacks from people who most like-ly are 07-08 members (people who cant tell a apple from a rhinoceros). In brawl, shield stun has been reduced GREATLY or maybe even eliminated in some cases! This means that if the attack hits the IC shield, its a grab. Unless u space perfectly, and even then(since there isnt L canceling) u may still be grabed. WD and L-canceling are gone, those 2 things played a major roll in how people got out out of situations, now that its gone.....IC have an advantage here. If you even try to fight this, you have sheer poop for brains.

Wait a minute. For one, this is an assertion. YOU might get grabbed. I don't. I'm good.

Second of all, if you attack someone's shield you deserve to get grabbed and destroyed. Who attacks someone's shield and lands in front of them? Learn to play Brawl. That's like saying Captain Falcon's forward-b should be banned because if you jump out to edgeguard him you get spiked; you just don't do stupid things that put you in those situations. Try, I don't know, not getting grabbed? It's not that difficult, people did it in Melee all the time. It's EASIER in Brawl. I'm not going to go into how, because I don't give out free lessons. Just believe me when I say I'm not worried about Ice Climbers grabbing me.

3. "Well if you ban/semi ban the ICG then u gotta ban XYZ that character XYZ can do." How about you STFU, stop smoking pot and realize that the MAIN REASON why i am banning this ICG. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ESCAPE IT UNLESS THE IC MESSES UP OR THEY ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO GET HIT BY THE LEVEL ENVIORNMENT. 2ndly, falco CG,dedede CG,marth CG on ness/lucas have all been PROVEN to be escape-able. If you want proof of this, go to ****ing youtube and look.

Actually, D3 can chain grab you against a wall forever and kill you. Did I also mention that 3/4 of the cast have infinites that can be done against a wall up to ~120%? You're as good as dead here anyway, so why not ban these too?

I'm gonna go ahead and throw this one out there though... did you come from the future? Because you seem to know that this is inescapable. It may very well be, and that doesn't matter in the slightest to be honest, but how will we know if paranoid TOs start banning it?

What do you mean "stupid enough" to get hit by the level? If I'm playing an Ice Climber, I'm picking a level that prevents them from chain grabbing on my counterpick. If I need to, I'll counterpick with my character. Good luck chain grabbing me when I have a grenade in my hand, keep throwing a gyro/banana/turnip in the air whenever you approach, stand above you on platforms, etc., etc.

4. Arguments like "well a good meta/snake/marth/falco/ect would never lose to this ICG business". Do you know how easy it is to pull off a grab? Just one per stock is not hard. There isnt a pro or noob that does not get grabbed. Again, since the shield system is grab friendly, it makes it even more viable to grab. not to mention u can send out nana to grab well ahead of you. Also, think of it this way: YOU have to stop ALL grabs, THEY only need ONE.

Correction: I don't get grabbed.

We're allowed to just spout off whatever we want, right? Because that's what you're doing. Just because YOU get grabbed all the time means nothing... especially since you obviously don't have Ice Climber experience. I played Ice Climbers in Melee, and it is hard as hell to get grabs off when you're playing someone that knows what they are doing.

5. Some might counter with "oh yea well what about tripping?!?! HA since there are 2 climbers that means there chances of tripping are double, so there IS a way around it". My retort is this: plz go drink iodine and die. Since tripping is EXTREMLY rare and the fact that you only need ONE grab per stock........who cares if u trip 3 times. All u needed was ONE GRAB. And please dont retort with "well practice on not getting grabbed", it doesnt work like that and ALL of you know it. THEY NEED ONE GRAB.

You do realize that tripping only occurs on the dash animation? The Ice Climbers walk when they chain grab. They can't trip. You don't even know the basic fundamental information about this tactic, yet preach like an authority.

6. Some people claim that the ICG is EXTREMLY hard to do and its even harder cause its different per character. I FULLY AGREE!!!! Except when all u see is a max of 10 characters per tourney, its kinda easy to remember the timing for only 10 characters. I swear on anthing you want that if you sit down for 2-3 weeks and practice ICG it will become easier. So the arguement of "its super hard to do so it shouldnt be banned' is retared.

Evolution in the tournament scene is big. If the Ice Climbers get popular and people realize "oh hey, this guy can chain grab Snake, ROB, Metaknight, and G&W al day", then perhaps they'd learn to play someone else? Why would you WANT only 10 characters in the tournament scene anyway? You're banning one of the only things that is speeding up the process! That's irresponsible as a TO.

7. Just like our president(wether you like or dislike him) i am taking out the trash(ICG) BEFORE it starts to stink(cause problems or screw up tourney results). I am not claiming that the world will all pick up IC to win tournies. its not about winning tournies. Its about IC beating people who are clearly better than they are due to ICG.[/quo[te

You just used the Iraq war to defend your banning of a tactic in Brawl.

...

Problem is, you aren't a genius. You aren't a savant. Hell, you can't even type properly. You don't KNOW that something bad will happen; you're guessing. Problem is, you're going to ruin Texas' tournament scene if this picks up because no one else that is worth their salt is going to ban something like this. Texas, the state that COULD have had some of the first players that can IC chain grab and beat the IC chain grab, will now be the state that loses to them due to inexperience.

Congrats.

I thought I might add... beating people who are clearly better than they are? What are you smoking? You win games, you're better. End of story. I could be super technical with Pichu in Melee all I want, but if you come in with Sheik and destroy me by chain grabbing, that makes you better. Just because I'm doing something special or different means nothing. Just because what you do is easy means nothing. It just means I picked the wrong path to improvement. Play the game you are given, and play the best you can. Don't give out freebies because people picked the wrong character. So Ness has trouble with Marth grabs him and mashes Z. Big whoop, sucks for Ness. ICs can infinite? Sucks for everyone else. They can deal with it, or we'll see ICs everywhere in tournament really soon. You ban it then; not before, but after. That's what good TOs do. Bad TOs cripple their tournaments with ignorant rules.

8. When you people respond. I ASK that you PLZ take it from my point of view and at least ATTEMPT to consider how it feels for people who get 3 and 4 stocked from ICG hen in reality they may have been the better player.

Looks like someone needs to learn to play against Ice Climbers and revise their strategy. Just because your friend's Snake is a beast playing Metaknight and G&W doesn't mean that he's going to be a beast playing Ice Climbers.

9. I will run my tournaments how i see fit. if you cant handle that......plz commit suicide.

The common trend with ban-happy TOs is this:

Step 1. They are ridiculed
Step 2. People suck it up and go to their tournaments anyway, hating the rules, because they want tournaments
Step 3. People complain at said tournament about how stupid the rule/s is/are.
Step 4. Someone says they are hosting a tournament without said rule
Step 5. People go to new tournament
Step 6. People don't have to deal with old TO anymore.
Step 7. Old TO is now a joke and a footnote.


Don't be that guy. Be the wise TO that tells people who scream "BAN THE CHAIN GRAB" to calm down, and look closely at those using the chain grab. "Well see, he lost to that guy. Why'd he lose to him and not you? Go ask him. He knows something you don't."

Actually, you should do that. Ask people that know something you don't.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It seemed more like people were banning it not for actual reason, but because they just didn't like the concept of a OHKO from the center of a stage (it was more or less a gimp from anywhere). I never agreed with that mentality, but I can see why there'd be arguments over it. I'd be all for banning it if it turned into the only thing viable in the competitive scene.

Agreed.

Why have a fighting game with 5 blue fingers? Wouldn't it be better to have a red one, a blue one, a green one, a yellow one, and a thumb?

It would be people tend to focus on the fact the blue finger is the worst one out of the other 4.

Yeah, I meant camping more as in stalling. My bad.

Nah its my fault.

I snipped the parts I agreed with, I dislike cluttering up the forum >.<

Well I mean with the stages I mentioned earlier, it's still possible to perform, and very much allowed.

Yes thats true but I think the walls lessen the level of difficulty.

Again, why ban it in the first place? Don't fix what isn't broken, right?

I C WUT U DID THAR!

UNless it was unintentional in which case double cookie for you.
I agree I think it should be tested more but I am merely giving reasons as to why they would ban it immediately.

L-cancelling helped, wavedashing not so much. If anything it helped the Ice Climbers since they had such a long wavedash.

meh I didn't find wavedashing to useful for the iceclimbers grab because of predictability. if youy wavedashed after your opponent you were usually moving into to get hit.

EDIT: And while people are still talking about it, giving users flak for having an 07-08 join date is stupid.

*gives cookie*

 

[Corner-Trap]

meh I didn't find wavedashing to useful for the iceclimbers grab because of predictability. if youy wavedashed after your opponent you were usually moving into to get hit.

WD'ing helped the IC's grab game a lot, you just had to use it at the right moments, like WD'ing OOS or punishing whiffed attacks. Predictability doesn't matter when your opponent is physically unable to counter a setup.

 

[Bobo_The_Monkey]

Banning an attack in Brawl is ********. its not like that character is unbeatable if it has that move.