KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
What's you're problem lately? You seem so tense.
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Cliffhangers
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
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Max?
Smash Champion
Without P.O.F. around, the Smashboards Toolbag train really just doesn't have the umph it used to.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I know you did that on purpose lolol
crush
Smash Master
i concur. needz moar umph
Jonas
Smash Champion
This is a fallacious argument because it can be said about any tactic if the "better" player has not been exposed to it yet. You can't subjectively determine which player is the best and just ban specific things to make sure they win, you have to let the game objectively determine which player is the best.
The better players usually adapt and come out on top though, but if they don't and the game just degenerates into Puff getting a lead and planking for the remainder of the match, then a ban is called for. This hasn't happened yet though.
crush
Smash Master
Jonas
Smash Champion
You mean banning items and banning stages Fox can just bull**** around and win on?
Stratford
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
items are random, was tested for at least a year in tourney
fox's bull**** was used in tourney before those stages were banned
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
thats what brookman thinks who has never been planked by someone good
hax and m2k say otherwise, who are not only a lot smarter and hace actually played this game on a high level, but have experienced planking as well. they are better at theorycraft AND have experienced it
the burden of proof isnt on me, and its impossible to prove something should be banned because of the word "should"
u obviously have downs
/THREAD
hax and m2k say otherwise, who are not only a lot smarter and hace actually played this game on a high level, but have experienced planking as well. they are better at theorycraft AND have experienced it
the burden of proof isnt on me, and its impossible to prove something should be banned because of the word "should"
u obviously have downs
/THREAD
Peter, I really don't want you to think I'm hating on you or anything, but you really don't have any idea how good Brookman is, or any of the other people you're insulting, for that matter. You're just making a bunch of dumb assumptions and being really inflammatory and confrontational for no real reason. Basically, you're being one of the small-minded SWF "bad kids" you accuse everybody else of being when they disagree with you.
People who aren't top players DO know things about this game. They ARE entitled to their opinions and their insight/experience CAN be valuable. No amount of rage on your part is going to change that.
I don't understand why somebody as obviously NOT dumb as you are would post such dumb things.
People who aren't top players DO know things about this game. They ARE entitled to their opinions and their insight/experience CAN be valuable. No amount of rage on your part is going to change that.
I don't understand why somebody as obviously NOT dumb as you are would post such dumb things.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
bad is only relative
they might be super duper smart but there is still that problem where they arent high level
MAYBE they understand the game as good or better than hax m2k linguini
its POSSIBLE. but its much more likely that someone who thinks that fox and falco are broken is not some god of melee. pp said falco wasnt even the best char so saying falco is broken is questionable.
im making a calculated choice based on what i know. not a problem with making an informed decision
they might be super duper smart but there is still that problem where they arent high level
MAYBE they understand the game as good or better than hax m2k linguini
its POSSIBLE. but its much more likely that someone who thinks that fox and falco are broken is not some god of melee. pp said falco wasnt even the best char so saying falco is broken is questionable.
im making a calculated choice based on what i know. not a problem with making an informed decision
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Again: M2K has said a lot of crazy **** that no one else agrees with (Jigglypuff being the best character in the game, Diddy Kong and Olimar having an advantage against MK in Brawl, etc...) why should we trust him now?
I'm pretty sure Brookman doesn't actually think Fox and Falco are broken, but he's probably going to quote this and say he does just to be a troll.
I remember something Soap (Sheik from the Midwest) posted awhile ago (like 2-3 years now) about Drephen. Basically, Drephen was losing to Jiano and asked Soap what he should do to win. Soap said, "spam utilt," and that purportedly solved Drephen's Jiano problem. He also helped Drephen stop losing to Sliq by telling him to dtilt. According to Soap, Drephen stole his strats and made them work better than he ever could.
There are players whose understanding of the game is very deep but they struggle to apply their strategies in real time and there are players who are extremely good, but tend to play more by instinct/intuition and often can't really explain their thought process or how they win. I'm not saying that Hax/M2K/Linguini exemplify either of these extremes; they all know a ****ing lot about this game. My point is that you shouldn't automatically assimilate everything somebody tells you just because they're better than you. Being skeptical doesn't make you dumb.
And I really don't see what's so informed about making a decision because somebody told you to.
EDIT: **** Urgot isn't free anymore.
I remember something Soap (Sheik from the Midwest) posted awhile ago (like 2-3 years now) about Drephen. Basically, Drephen was losing to Jiano and asked Soap what he should do to win. Soap said, "spam utilt," and that purportedly solved Drephen's Jiano problem. He also helped Drephen stop losing to Sliq by telling him to dtilt. According to Soap, Drephen stole his strats and made them work better than he ever could.
There are players whose understanding of the game is very deep but they struggle to apply their strategies in real time and there are players who are extremely good, but tend to play more by instinct/intuition and often can't really explain their thought process or how they win. I'm not saying that Hax/M2K/Linguini exemplify either of these extremes; they all know a ****ing lot about this game. My point is that you shouldn't automatically assimilate everything somebody tells you just because they're better than you. Being skeptical doesn't make you dumb.
And I really don't see what's so informed about making a decision because somebody told you to.
EDIT: **** Urgot isn't free anymore.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
its not automatic
everyone comes in to this thread with their own assumptions, some of which they arent even aware of. I'm very aware of mine
I understand I could be wrong, its just im looking at the evidence and saying i doubt it. when anyone gives an opinion, it isnt like "I 100% believe this ****" necessarily. maybe it is, maybe its like 20% and they have no other alternatives.
like asking what is dark matter. the best answers in the world (besides "no fuking clue") are so ludicrous that the people saying them feel silly. but a guess is worth something when theres nothing else better
and he already posted that fox and falco were broken earlier before this thread became a trollfest
@ the whole "m2k was wrong in my opinion b4" thing
and @ the drephen jiano sliq thing.
there can be cases yes, but I'm looking for the rule. maybe m2k was wrong or maybe he wasnt. some players definitely cant execute as well as they think about the game. but can that be applied here? it sounds more like an exception to me
bottom line is im unsure, not that anyone should actually care what MY opinion is, but they should care about my reasoning. and probably dont but idgaf
also apparently urgot 3-0 in lane cant carry when fiddle decides to roam. who knew..
everyone comes in to this thread with their own assumptions, some of which they arent even aware of. I'm very aware of mine
I understand I could be wrong, its just im looking at the evidence and saying i doubt it. when anyone gives an opinion, it isnt like "I 100% believe this ****" necessarily. maybe it is, maybe its like 20% and they have no other alternatives.
like asking what is dark matter. the best answers in the world (besides "no fuking clue") are so ludicrous that the people saying them feel silly. but a guess is worth something when theres nothing else better
and he already posted that fox and falco were broken earlier before this thread became a trollfest
@ the whole "m2k was wrong in my opinion b4" thing
and @ the drephen jiano sliq thing.
there can be cases yes, but I'm looking for the rule. maybe m2k was wrong or maybe he wasnt. some players definitely cant execute as well as they think about the game. but can that be applied here? it sounds more like an exception to me
bottom line is im unsure, not that anyone should actually care what MY opinion is, but they should care about my reasoning. and probably dont but idgaf
also apparently urgot 3-0 in lane cant carry when fiddle decides to roam. who knew..
Wow lol, it's like I traveled to a parallel dimension 4 years in the past, where the community is arguing the potential for planking with jigglypuff instead of wobbling with IC's.
4 years ago:
"Ice Climbers have this really useful technique called wobbling (one of dozens of different CG techniques) that if done right, it can take a player's entire stock 0-death. That means that an IC player could potentially take all 4 stock in a row without the opposing player being able to fight back! That means that if even a bad player lands 4 grabs on the best players in the world, the IC player can still win! BAN IT NOW BEFORE SOMEONE ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING WITH THIS TECHNIQUE!"
Fast forward to this thread:
"Jigglypuff has this really useful ability called grabbing the edge, then using Fair, then regrabbing the ledge. If done right (read: if the opposing player has no idea how to counter it, or they think staying away from the ledge while jiggs has the lead is a good idea), this tactic is unbeatable! I saw Mew2king (one of the best players on earth) beating someone much worse than him in a friendly with this tactic, and M2k doesn't even main jiggs! That means that the best jiggs players would be unbeatable with this tactic! BAN IT NOW BEFORE SOMEONE EVEN TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN A TOURNAMENT!"
Last I checked, you don't ban "good ideas", you ban tried & true techniques or particulars about a game that degenerates/aids in destroying the metagame. Hell, I remember an old thread a looong time ago when Melee was first introduced about banning a character that garnered a ton of support. Want to know what that was? It was for banning Roy, because his Fsmash was just "too strong to play around, and a couple hits could easily spell death for his opponent."
...Is this thread actually serious?
4 years ago:
"Ice Climbers have this really useful technique called wobbling (one of dozens of different CG techniques) that if done right, it can take a player's entire stock 0-death. That means that an IC player could potentially take all 4 stock in a row without the opposing player being able to fight back! That means that if even a bad player lands 4 grabs on the best players in the world, the IC player can still win! BAN IT NOW BEFORE SOMEONE ACCOMPLISHES SOMETHING WITH THIS TECHNIQUE!"
Fast forward to this thread:
"Jigglypuff has this really useful ability called grabbing the edge, then using Fair, then regrabbing the ledge. If done right (read: if the opposing player has no idea how to counter it, or they think staying away from the ledge while jiggs has the lead is a good idea), this tactic is unbeatable! I saw Mew2king (one of the best players on earth) beating someone much worse than him in a friendly with this tactic, and M2k doesn't even main jiggs! That means that the best jiggs players would be unbeatable with this tactic! BAN IT NOW BEFORE SOMEONE EVEN TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN A TOURNAMENT!"
Last I checked, you don't ban "good ideas", you ban tried & true techniques or particulars about a game that degenerates/aids in destroying the metagame. Hell, I remember an old thread a looong time ago when Melee was first introduced about banning a character that garnered a ton of support. Want to know what that was? It was for banning Roy, because his Fsmash was just "too strong to play around, and a couple hits could easily spell death for his opponent."
...Is this thread actually serious?
damn, King just ***** this thread. I'm tempted to abuse my mod powers and just close it because further debate is now pointless.
Jonas
Smash Champion
To be fair, Roy's Fsmash is REALLY powerful
compared to Marth's jab
Yeah let's just ban everything until it's proven not broken.
crush
Smash Master
safehaven was banned because his arguments in this thread were unbeatable
Jonas
Smash Champion
Left unbanned, he would have degenerated all the discussions on this board into constant logical fallacies.
crush
Smash Master
nobody cares
Sinji
Smash Master
Oh ****. good stuff King.
Fox and falco are broken. Picking fox and falco is an unbeatable strategy against most players. Let's just ask m2k/armada/hbox and the countless others who have fallen victim to not choosing said characters.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (4 members and 1 guests)
Brookman, The King, Mogwai, stelzig
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (4 members and 1 guests)
Brookman, The King, Mogwai, stelzig
I also intended to touch on this, but forgot lol:
You're walking down the street, suddenly a man across the street from you drops dead from a heart attack. Police look at you and claim "Hey you! Stop, murderer! You'll hang for what you've done!" Well, knowing your history of fair due-process, you exclaim "Wait a second! I'm no perpetrator! You have no evidence I killed him! There isn't a shred of proof!" Then the policeman says to you, "On the contrary, you've supplied no evidence that you DIDN'T kill him... off to jail with you!"
In case that's too cryptic, here's a TL;DR: with due process, the burden of proof falls on the party throwing out the accusations. Otherwise, ridiculous claims such as the case in point of this thread would run rampant, and knee-jerk reactions of banning every tactic someone brainstormed up then successfully executed on a lesser-skilled player in a friendly would be the norm.
And by the way, just working back to my wobbling example... even after all the fuss about wobbling and selective banning of the technique, at the events where it remained legal Wobbling didn't leave so much as a dent in the metagame. All it accomplished was that it made players peform better against IC's, and it sharpened the potential of the few truly skilled IC's players in the country.
I argued against the technique being banned back then rigorously. In retrospect, anyone with half a brain can tell that the few TO's who did ban it simply personify one of Smash's worst community knee-jerk reactions. It wasn't banned back then because it was unfair... It was all just politics.
The burden of proof for why this should be banned lies completely on you & the camp which agrees with you. Imagine this overblown example, starring real life.
You're walking down the street, suddenly a man across the street from you drops dead from a heart attack. Police look at you and claim "Hey you! Stop, murderer! You'll hang for what you've done!" Well, knowing your history of fair due-process, you exclaim "Wait a second! I'm no perpetrator! You have no evidence I killed him! There isn't a shred of proof!" Then the policeman says to you, "On the contrary, you've supplied no evidence that you DIDN'T kill him... off to jail with you!"
In case that's too cryptic, here's a TL;DR: with due process, the burden of proof falls on the party throwing out the accusations. Otherwise, ridiculous claims such as the case in point of this thread would run rampant, and knee-jerk reactions of banning every tactic someone brainstormed up then successfully executed on a lesser-skilled player in a friendly would be the norm.
And by the way, just working back to my wobbling example... even after all the fuss about wobbling and selective banning of the technique, at the events where it remained legal Wobbling didn't leave so much as a dent in the metagame. All it accomplished was that it made players peform better against IC's, and it sharpened the potential of the few truly skilled IC's players in the country.
I argued against the technique being banned back then rigorously. In retrospect, anyone with half a brain can tell that the few TO's who did ban it simply personify one of Smash's worst community knee-jerk reactions. It wasn't banned back then because it was unfair... It was all just politics.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Someone lock this thread and delete my post so that King has the final say. We're done here folks.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
there is no burden of proof because its completely relative what should be banned and what should not
no one even has a definition of what banworthy means
there simply isnt enough agreement on what is ban worthy to even begin to prove anything. its just a million people giving opinions relying on what should be done, when we have no idea what that even is supposed to mean
and yes i feel put in my place. i never thought of it that way. also saying wobbling shouldnt have been banned shouldnt be related to whether this should be or not.
if its really that bad then well see soon. i dont imagine anyone hates the game enough to do it at a national yet but w/e
no one even has a definition of what banworthy means
there simply isnt enough agreement on what is ban worthy to even begin to prove anything. its just a million people giving opinions relying on what should be done, when we have no idea what that even is supposed to mean
and yes i feel put in my place. i never thought of it that way. also saying wobbling shouldnt have been banned shouldnt be related to whether this should be or not.
if its really that bad then well see soon. i dont imagine anyone hates the game enough to do it at a national yet but w/e
tl;dr if you're too scrubby to read King's posts:
Prove it. Win Genesis/place way outside where everything thinks you belong based on your skill by just ledgecamping with Jiggs/Sheik whatever. Then we'll talk.
But really you should just read King's post because King *****.
Prove it. Win Genesis/place way outside where everything thinks you belong based on your skill by just ledgecamping with Jiggs/Sheik whatever. Then we'll talk.
But really you should just read King's post because King *****.
... There is a burden of proof on your part, because you're accusing (or at least supporting the accusation) that this "technique" should be banned/regulated when there has been ZERO documented data that this technique will worsen, cheapen, or degenerate the metagame. You can't go around on one hand stating that techniques deserve to be banned, while on the other hand saying that there are no standards or definitions for what "banworthy" even means. It doesn't work that way man.
Concerning the definition of banworthy though... sure, no two stages/characters/techniques/rulesets are created equal, hence there can't be one solid definition of banworthy. However, as I stated, this is pretty much the definition that our community has been using since the dawn of the MBR:
-Every technique, irregardless of how broken or imbalanced it may appear in the beginning, will be given an opportunity at the tournament-level to "prove" to the community that it's inclusion can cause gross imbalances or imbalances in the fairness of a match.
-Banning something (just like my analogy to Justices handing down the death penalty) is not an event that our community takes lightly. While each TO runs his own show, the community itself will never declare something "banworthy" by my defintion up there without ample discussion, consideration AND tournament results which back it up.
The wobbling comparison absolutely belongs in here. I think you failed to catch my point about it: both this discussion and the one about wobbling back in the day *both* supported banning a tactic based simply on potential-theorycrafting and the results of a few friendlies, rather than actually waiting for the technique to generate tournament results and prove to the community that it's even worth paying attention to.
Concerning the definition of banworthy though... sure, no two stages/characters/techniques/rulesets are created equal, hence there can't be one solid definition of banworthy. However, as I stated, this is pretty much the definition that our community has been using since the dawn of the MBR:
There's a lot of due-process hidden in this statement. What it means is this:
-Every technique, irregardless of how broken or imbalanced it may appear in the beginning, will be given an opportunity at the tournament-level to "prove" to the community that it's inclusion can cause gross imbalances or imbalances in the fairness of a match.
-Banning something (just like my analogy to Justices handing down the death penalty) is not an event that our community takes lightly. While each TO runs his own show, the community itself will never declare something "banworthy" by my defintion up there without ample discussion, consideration AND tournament results which back it up.
The wobbling comparison absolutely belongs in here. I think you failed to catch my point about it: both this discussion and the one about wobbling back in the day *both* supported banning a tactic based simply on potential-theorycrafting and the results of a few friendlies, rather than actually waiting for the technique to generate tournament results and prove to the community that it's even worth paying attention to.
Djent
Smash Champion
And as usual, King arrives late and demolishes irrationality in a more coherent way than anyone else proceeding him. How am I not surprised?
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
In fact we actually had this in support of the wobbling ban way back when it was introduced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL1sFSEBtCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL1sFSEBtCk
omg, a match between similarly skilled players proving that a technique made a previously unwinable matchup winable, OBVIOUSLY SHOULD'VE BEEN BANNED.
Trolling you aside, do you seriously think anecdotal evidence is conclusive enough to support an overarching and difficult to enforce ban?
mmk, wasn't sure where you were going with that.
In that case, I agree with you, but I think you'll reach a fundamental difference of opinions with people who support a ledge grab rule because I think they will (at least mostly) be the same people who still think Wobbling should be banned.
In that case, I agree with you, but I think you'll reach a fundamental difference of opinions with people who support a ledge grab rule because I think they will (at least mostly) be the same people who still think Wobbling should be banned.
Niko45
Smash Master
I'm so glad Wobbling is banned in my region. It's super gay.
Whether it "should" be or not, idgaf. Just so happy it's banned at No Johns.
Whether it "should" be or not, idgaf. Just so happy it's banned at No Johns.
Seriously Niko, why? Who even plays ICs in NYC? Do you seriously think a lesser player would just be able to pick ICs and beat you with Wobbling?
As a Peach main, every time I play the vs ICs matchup I feel like it's an extraordinarily dumb matchup for the ICs player to deal with, and that's just from me selecting a character. Wobbles seems like pretty fair game in comparison.
Niko45
Smash Master
Nintendude when he's around. He already beats me but I guarantee and he would vouch that he'd beat me for absolutely ****ing free with wobbling lol. As it is I at least stand a chance.
In general, if you're talking about a player who isn't much lesser than me, then hell yea, wobbling would give that person a massive boost over me. Particularly in matchups where ICs don't have solid consistent chain grabbing like vs Marth, wobbling flips the matchup upside down.
I like the way they did it at Winter Game Fest, one wobble allowed per match.
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