Cliffhangers

[Max?]

This is the best thread on swf ever

 

[KishPrime]

Then why have none of my friends liked it on Facebook?

 

[The King]

I got back from work, sat down & opened up my laptop to this thread again, and after reading this last page... yeah I'm just going to give up & save myself the aggravation. Though I am going to leave a few last remarks lol.

1.) I hope to God I never find myself so lost that I'm on the opposing end of Brookman lol. But don't feel sorry for me man lol, arguing with that goddamn pony avatar only gives me strength.

2.) Concerning Haven's remark about how "M2k/Hax apparently have the greatest first-hand knowledge about this technique and how powerful it is"... well, considering that all of about 5 people agree with them out of this entire community so far, I'm going to go out on a limb and say their conjecture about this technique being broken is wrong.

3.) "i think its ok to ban anything if its going to keep people from enjoying the game".
This is why people like you do not help mold a trustworthy ruleset for tournament play. Coincidentally, it's also the reason why Wobbling was banned at *some* tournaments; in the end it's up to each TO to choose what he wants to allow, and it's up to the players whether or not they want to attend. The MBR isn't the authoritative institution of Melee, but they've been a damn good guiding light over the years.

If your philosophy about banning anything that doesn't sound fun was what governed Melee's ruleset... there wouldn't be anything left of Melee at the tournament level but kirby dittos.

"I don't like shine-spiking, that's really dumb cause it sends me below the stage too much and I die from just 1 move, it's banned."
"I don't like Jigglypuff's rest, one-hit KO's at nearly any percentage on any stage is unfair cause most characters can't do that, it's banned."
"I don't like Dreamland because it's tough for characters like Ganon to keep up with Fox and matches like that are boring to watch. But I don't know whether to ban Dreamland or Fox, help me guyz."

OUR community doesn't just ban things on a whim. We collectively do not ban things because they aren't fun. The only time a tactic/stage/character is even *considered* for a ban by anyone respected in the community is when said tactic/stage/character threatens to destroy the game's integrity and degenerate/influence the metagame towards one stagnant direction.

 

[mesa23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJWS4sHbuM

 

[Pink Reaper]

If your philosophy about banning anything that doesn't sound fun was what governed Melee's ruleset... there wouldn't be anything left of Melee at the tournament level but kirby dittos.

Nothing about Kirby dittos is fun. You crazy.

Movement to ban Kirby dittos from tournament. All opposed say Nay.

 

[ZoSo]

1.) I hope to God I never find myself so lost that I'm on the opposing end of Brookman lol. But don't feel sorry for me man lol, arguing with that goddamn pony avatar only gives me strength.

I lost so hard.

Nothing about Kirby dittos is fun. You crazy.

Movement to ban Kirby dittos from tournament. All opposed say Nay.

Finally! A cause I can get behind!

 

[safehaven]

@JPOBS
-most people would disagree with your criteria as well so its ok. u dont even understand my criteria at all, or what those words actually mean. its like looking at the constitution the first time u see it and trying to invision america and all its laws from it. it is something that i interpret in a way, and theres almost no way u can do it correctly. and look u failed like i thought people would do
-also what precedent, the precedent u are making up, or the precedent of TO's making up there own stuff? or the precedent of the MBR being ignored and doing nothing. rofl
-magus frame data only means u dont have perfect invincibility, and wait ive said like 10 times that that isnt even relevant when banning anything in a majority of peoples views (hey i can do that too!). Like im starting to get concerned cause this is the 3rd time people have tried to say my view of banning is invalid cause their view is satisfied by some evidence. ITS NOT RELEVANTTT
-u obviously have NO idea what science is about and probably have never even worked with a real scientist. I have. I understand peer review, and peer review looks at 1) is the experiment reproducible and 2) will the results be consistent? first u have m2k. then hax experienced this. thats it so far. call it a hypothesis, but so far all we know is that more than one source agrees.
-individual TO's will do what they want, and so will national TO's. no ban pass or fail vote from anybody will deter some TO's from doing what they want. is this a problem? yes
-im mainly concerned about puffs ruining melee for beginners with this tactic in tournament. so local matters even more than national imo
-the funniest thing is that people are acting like this precedent exists where we need documented evidence. yet another untrue thing cause no such precedent exists, and even then this mean nothing because even though a precedent doesnt exist, people will still say one is needed, while other people will say one is not needed, and oh look HERE WE GO AGAIN LOL


@king
i thought i specifically asked that no one try and extend my philosophy to individual cases cause of how wrong u would be

and low and behold... it happened.

thats what it means to me, not what it means to you. at this point u can just interpret it anyway u want and use that against me to act is if criteria are bad, WAIT U JUST DID THIS

1) also brookman is trolling me for fun. stand up guy/ also cant follow simple argument or follow reasoning processes

2) when anything new is done and no one knows about it, of course few people agree. its totally irrelevant though, because an entire community who are wrong are louder (hey look this thread).
point being if the people who have no knowledge of this dont think its broken in the people who know a good deal about it DO think its broken (or bannable or w/e the *** u want to call it) , then why would u throw your vote to the inexperienced majority? sounds terribly dumb to me

3) why would u institute ledge grab rule in brawl? cause it made the game stale. same thing in melee
also im an incredibly competitive person. thats why i play video games at all

stop misinterpreting what i said. i told u thats what it meant to me generally, and told u not to apply it to anything cause u would fail

and ur building this whole troll example off misinterpreting my views.. anything that will make the game less what it should be: challenging, competitive, dynamic, enjoyable, creative..
w/e i cant respond to 3 cause its totally troll

 

[Zankoku]

You're the loudest person in this thread, safehaven.

 

[CloneHat]

I just figured out how ignore works.

YES

 

[safehaven]

yes but i love the game still and i want everyone to be happy and am still getting trolled

also im glad that this thread has smart people posting in it now who care about the issue and dotn just train insult me and use bad reasoning

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (8 members and 0 guests)
safehaven, Strong Bad, romkca, The King, CloneHat, The GERM, Shawn101589

 

[username12345678]

wobbling was banned for a little bit guys!!!
yall just trying to change the subject because you know safehaven is partially right. safehaven is also wrong though, this jigglypufff technique is completely beatable, but yall call him a troll just because you have no other arguments. his logic is correct, but hes still wrong. ive done this technique vs my little sister, and all i had to do was throw pokeballs at her or jump out and knee her. safehaven is right to say we should side with the people who have actually experienced it, but none of yall even know how easily this technique is to beat. every character, (even broken ones like fawks and failc0) can just jump out and forward air jigglypuff,grab the ledge/die, then hit her again/respawn and hope she dies.

jigglypuff ledgecamp is incredibly easy to beat.

people that use jigglypuff ledgecamp technique are like slaves after a successful revolt;
MAD FREE.

I think your my Hero

 

[JPOBS]

LOL when you ignore list someone now, you can't see their post at all anymore! in the old system atleast there was a collapsible box. Wow, this is gold.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

First off I've typed this up twice now due to my internet messing up so it's a bit shorter.

Scroll down and read this http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

Metagame is offen controlled by a stronger set of tactics and when a new stronger tactic than all the rest comes along it is in good time countered or proven broken. Understand what metagame is and that as a commuity we want as large of a metagame as possible so banning is the last thing we should try to do unless it destroys too much metagame.

Red my veiws
Purple the logic flaws in your arguements that you should look atand edit

@JPOBS
-magus frame data only means u dont have perfect invincibility,Strawman/Missing the point


you misunderstand what the date proved it shows even slow people can counter puff tactics in reasonable amount of time and you refused to show how far the data went and wait ive said like 10 times that that isnt even relevant when banning anything in a majority of peoples views (hey i can do that too!). Like im starting to get concerned cause this is the 3rd time people have tried to say my view of banning is invalid cause their view is satisfied by some evidenceAppeal to ignorance


You said there is SOME evidence that this is not broken and that it isn't enough, maybe currently and also most banned things are totally impossible to counter like the freeze glitchITS NOT RELEVANTTT

-u obviously have NO idea what science is about and probably have never even worked with a real scientist. I have. I understand peer review, and peer review looks at 1) is the experiment reproducible and 2) will the results be consistent? first u have m2k. then hax experienced this. thats it so far. call it a hypothesis, but so far all we know Appeal to ignorance
is that more than one source agrees.

-individual TO's will do what they want, and so will national TO's. no ban pass or fail vote from anybody will deter some TO's from doing what they want. is this a problem? yesBegging the question


you haven't given a reason why this is bad when maybe locally the group of players can play on MK2 without extreme abusers but RC is commonly abused or there might be an area where ice climbers players never go so it doesn't matter if wobbling is banned or not it changes from area to area and should

-im mainly concerned about puffs ruining melee for beginners with this tactic in tournament. so local matters even more than national imoPeople said this when they wanted to ban puff but puff herself is rarly played and everyone has fun their OWN way myself I love fighting puff/marth I am trilled to watch people win by timing out a samus once ran around BF vs my roy and lost because I didn't expect it but I still had a great time like my camper

-the funniest thing is that people are acting like this precedent exists

There are in fact guidelines for banning something however currently I can't find the site where we need documented evidence.Appeal to ignorance

to be fair we ban things from years of testing or seeing if anything can counter it period like the ice climbers freeze glitch you want to ban this based on your faith in m2k's idea that it's broken even if there is SOME evident that it isn't yet broken so there is no way we can just yet ban it like the freeze glitchyet another untrue thing cause no such precedent exists, and even then this mean nothing because even though a precedent doesnt exist, people will still say one is needed, while other people will say one is not needed, and oh look HERE WE GO AGAIN LOL

1) also brookman is trolling me for fun. stand up guy/ also cant follow simple argument or follow reasoning processes

you are the master of iorny now

As you can see you made illogical point after point after point if you really want to be taken swear fix your mistakes I'm only helping you farther counter us by showing you how to be more logical ALl farther arguements i'll call you out on reduces your arguement to very little.

This was so painful to retype you can't even begin to understand.

But were that any vaild points I didn't see any?

 

[crush]

I think your my Hero

Thank you, thank you, I will in fact be giving out autographs at genesis 2.

 

[safehaven]

LOL AT LOGICAL FALLACY MAN

To be serious for once:

You certainly make a lot of assumptions about my argument, and you definitely draw a lot of false conclusions from premises that you assume I make.

You see that I am mainly asking questions, and I freely admit that this is not a rock solid belief of any kind, but merely a hypothesis I'm trying to test.

So I will address the points that you brought up and show you why I am not using logical fallacies in this situation, and hopefully make you a better debater in the process.

1) Magus frame data - in fact, it is you who are missing the point, and this is not strawman at all. A strawman would contain me using an extreme case to argue against; in fact, however, this case is not extreme at all. Being frame perfect is something that would make the technique broken, and even then it wouldn't do the trick. What is magus frame data showing us? That you are vulnerable on the ledge, regardless of puff tech skill. But you say the point is that slow players can react to this. But this makes the assumption that the frames between grab and regrab are the only problem, and that the problem with planking is grabbing the ledge between these frames.

What the frame data refuses to say, however, is that puff is also trying to kill you along with regrabbing the ledge. Getting around planking is not grabbing the ledge during these frames: it is grabbing them without getting hit, and then if you succeed, you will again find yourself in an incredibly disadvantageous position.

You have missed the point of what the frame data means.

----------------

-An appeal to ignorance (like in the website you listed) is an appeal to accept a conclusion in the absence of counter-evidence. However, this is once again not the usage of a logical fallacy.

It is important to know that, as I have said many times in this thread, I believe that as far as we know, banning would be the best thing. As I stated in one of my recent posts as well, this is a hypothesis composed of evidence collected first-hand by two experienced and high-level smashers. Now, understand the point that I have been emphasizing the entire thread (and please read the whole thing before jumping to conclusions =] ): that this is the best guess we have as to whether or not the tactic really is ban worthy.

I would presume you are familiar with string theory? It is a mathematical theory that suggests that all matter in the universe is mad up of tiny, vibrating strings, and that the different way in which these strings vibrate account for all quarks, muons, nuons, and dark matter (whatever that really is) in the known universe.
However, this theory really only has one thing going for it: its math. Experimentally, it is impossible to prove or disprove, and although its math seems solid, there is no experimental evidence for it.

Now when you meet Brian Greene at a physics convention, you would not accuse him of a logical fallacy. You would admire his dedication and work in his field, and in his pursuit or strong theory and the new "superstring theory" which has emerged over the past several decades.

This is because I am not making a logical argument in favor of a fact ("this is broken" or "they are right"). I am making a hypothesis based on evidence and have claimed over and over that this is a best guess, and not something I know for a fact.

Please do not accuse someone who's guessing of using appeal to ignorance, cause it makes you look very unintelligent to say the least.

And you seem to really like this appeal to ignorance thing =). Luckily I knocked it out of the way all at once. You need to understand the difference between the scientific method and forming of hypothesis and logical argument.

----------

-Broken or not?

I will repeat myself (yet again) to you and say that broken or banworthy (or amendable, which is a better way to think about the affect on the current melee ruleset) is a totally and completely relative term.

-Lets imagine that I say that only A animals are cute.
-Roger says that only B animals are cute.

My evidence that some unknown animal * is cute is that that animal is a member of A.

Thus this same evidence would lead to the conclusion that for me, * is cute, and for Roger (assuming this animal is not a member of B) that * is not cute.

So broken and cute being relative terms, we can see that a piece of evidence applying to one persons relative notion "banworthy" may not apply, or even be counter-evidence of another persons notion of "banworthy."

Any notion that you have of something being banworthy or evidence in some persons eyes may be completely different in the eyes of another.

You mention that most banned thing are impossible to counter (hasty generalization), and again how is this relevant even if it is true?
---------

Begging the question......

You imply that there is no evidence that TO's make their own rules and always have?
-MBR says Wobbling should not be banned.
-Banned at Pound 4, Pound 5, APEX 2010, every local tournament I've ever been to (GA House Smash League Series, Tipped Off 5 and 6, WABA Weeklies)
-This is clear evidence that TO's do not follow the MBR, and rather follow something else, be it there own mind or maybe a secret TO Ruleset that I am unaware of.

Not begging the question at all.

------
Personal reasons are personal reasons and philosophy about the game, and musings about what could happen. I make no logical conclusions through these, and you correctly do not challenge them on a logical basis, but rather disagree on personal grounds.

Puff is in fact my favorite match-up. However that is no more relevant to this topic than your comments or today's weather.

--------

MBR banning != a de facto ban. I have already illustrated this, and you have gotten hung up in the terminology, thinking that some official ban procedure counts as precedent win this same procedure (as I have already argued) does not affect the actual tournament ruleset at real tournaments.

-------

"To be fair we ban things from years of testing..."

As this statement is practically impossible to prove, I can't take it as truthful or as something to reply to.
This is also an appeal to tradition, if from this you are proposing that bans "should" be like this.

And we find again that what you think deserves a ban and what is broken is totally relative to you. The user named "Brookman" said that "fox and falco are so broken" (sic.). While this is a perfectly valid view given the subjective nature of the word "broken," people might have strong opinions otherwise. And that is the situation we find ourselves in today.


You must draw a line between what you consider broken and what I consider broken, and what marthpwnzer79831 considers broken. These are all opinions, and each word will have a different meaning based on the experiences and biases of the person using the word.
I believe though, that if you carefully learn from this post, that you can learn more about what subjective terms are, what the scientific method attempts to do, and how making alt accounts may cause you trouble with the moderation, and possibly land you with a 9 point infraction for "Alternate account/ impersonation account."

Good day to you.

 

[gghhh3]

Great wall of china

 

[Dark Hart]

Great wall of china

Especailly on swf mobile

 

[Pengie]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that safehaven is having fun failing at being a troll XD

I <3 ignore function

 

[Mew2King]

why is this thread still open no one cares. I guess it's the general discussion thread.

 

[safehaven]

Dude can u shut up already?

Youre like the 5th person in this thread to use that joke and you already used it on this same page..

and lmao at m2k

 

[Mew2King]

Juan Debiedma
....i dont want to plank

June 24Jason Zimmerman
1 min
to learn
you want guaranteed 1st tho yes
GUARANTEED
no matter what

June 24Juan Debiedma
i'm good lol
planking is cheating in my eyes


It doesn't matter if planking is ever banned or not but for those saying it's not broken - you are mistaken. A tactic that requires very little skill gives her a big advantage vs many top characters. Unlike Hax I really don't care what you guys do or decide but I'm still going to give my honest input.

 

[crush]

this is the first time ever never ever that jason zimmerman is wrong. jiggs planking is very easy to beat.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (6 members and 0 guests)
crush, OverLord, KirbyKaze, gghhh3

 

[Mew2King]

good argument you have there

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm trying to decide if I think, "Money match my Puff!" is a better argument.

 

[crush]

good argument you have there

my argument was posted a few pages ago -

"wobbling was banned for a little bit guys!!!
yall just trying to change the subject because you know safehaven is partially right. safehaven is also wrong though, this jigglypufff technique is completely beatable, but yall call him a troll just because you have no other arguments. his logic is correct, but hes still wrong. ive done this technique vs my little sister, and all i had to do was throw pokeballs at her or jump out and knee her. safehaven is right to say we should side with the people who have actually experienced it, but none of yall even know how easily this technique is to beat. every character, (even broken ones like fawks and failc0) can just jump out and forward air jigglypuff,grab the ledge/die, then hit her again/respawn and hope she dies.

jigglypuff ledgecamp is incredibly easy to beat.

people that use jigglypuff ledgecamp technique are like slaves after a successful revolt;
MAD FREE."

 

[Pi]

this isn't and most likely (99%) will never be an issue in competitive smash

i mean

ffs

we're not mvc3, or the next sf game
we're not talking tens of thousands of dollar tournaments, no mlg sponsorships, nothing of that calibur

we're a 10 year old game and community, and while we may get a few new recruits every now and again, they come to play the game we all love

nobody is out to ruin the game or to abuse a unknown tactic simply to win an underground community hosted tournament

we're all just here to pit our knowledge of the metagame against each other, and while you can say that's a contradiction with saying that nobody is going to plank, there is still the underlying reason why we all still play and love this game

because it's FUN

if ever there was a high ranking competitive ssbm player out there who was willing to use this technique solely for the purpose of winning a tournament, i have not met or even heard of said player yet

and frankly i don't think anyone is willing or able to use this technique for the sole purpose of even bringing it to the communities attention as a ban worthy strategy

so this whole thread and debate is most likely (99%) pointless and we're all just bored smash players

lock this thread so we can all go back to actually playing the game

 

[Mew2King]

Yeah what 3 said that's why it doesn't matter

 

[1048576]

Sorry, Imma take Magus' frame data over your word, unless you wanna tell me exactly why the Falcon won't get a free bair all day.

 

[Dark Hart]

Agreed teams shine infinite buddy

 

[Niko45]

wonton soup

 

[kailo34ce]

the same people gay enough to main jiggs are the same people gay enough to argue in this thread and the same people gay enough to ledge stall for 8 minutes.

 

[Pi]

you live in wolf
your argument is invalid

 

[Mic_128]

If this thread doesn't get back to solid discussion about planking minus the spam, trolling and flames, I'll gladly shut this down.

 

[safehaven]

should be the new social thread tbh

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mic, how did you get in the back-room for both games? You don't even play, lol.

 

[gghhh3]

this is the first time ever never ever that jason zimmerman is wrong. jiggs planking is very easy to beat.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (6 members and 0 guests)
crush, OverLord, KirbyKaze, gghhh3

I left this page open for like 8 hours. Shoulda posted my name over and over till I left.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Mic, how did you get in the back-room for both games? You don't even play, lol.

Mic plays both games. He's the top ddd in Australia and was one of the best IC's for melee.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mic plays both games. He's the top ddd in Australia and was one of the best IC's for melee.

Top DDD in Australia? One of the best ICs?

Now, I'm only going by what I've heard other people say (I've never met Mic), but afaik he lives in one of the weakest states, doesn't attend tourneys regularly and is pretty "meh" at the game, lol. There is also the fact that I've mained ICs for years and have researched the Aus scene pretty extensively, never heard of Mic making any kind of an impact anywhere.

No offense to the guy, again, I've never met him, just wondering exactly what is going on here.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol he's an admin, someone has to moderate the back rooms.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, I thought the criteria for getting in the Backrooms was just "being good at the game"...