Pengie
Smash Lord
Because ICs can totally grab Marth for free to the point that it actually affects the match up right?
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Cliffhangers
- Thread starter Hax
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Niko45
Smash Master
Umm actually yea. ICs grab Marth more than most characters do...
Pengie
Smash Lord
Really? I guess my ignorance is showing because I don't see ICs/Marth that often; how do ICs set up their grab game against Marth? I'd think the fact that Marth can wall them out with his better range would be enough to avoid getting grabbed too often.
Niko45
Smash Master
The thing is they don't have great clean setups for them. But a few things are going for them in that Marth struggles to separate them in general and he generally lags more than most characters with his moves and he can also be CC'd well. Once things start getting messy it only takes one climber to punish lag with a grab or jab + grab, pummel a couple of times til the other gets back and you're in business. It just sort of happens sporadically but still pretty consistently overall. Oh, and Marth is really easy to grab as he comes up from the ledge so if they manage to push him on there they have great opportunities to get a wobble as he tries to get off the ledge.
Generally speaking it's kinda been a long standing myth imo that ICs really struggle to get sync'd grabs or that it takes so much skill to get that grab that the ease of wobbling afterwards is acceptable. They have an up tilt that forces FFers to tech at 0. There's two of them and they have good projectiles and a good jab grab. They have great tools. I feel like any ICs player knows deep down that wobbling is a really big boost for them, even if they don't want to come out and say it since it's such a controversial subject.
I just feel like if Fox or Falco had a wobble everyone would ban that asap but it's deemed acceptable on ICs just because of the ICs being relatively "bad" makes up for how overpowered wobbling is, which on principle is not the way I feel the move should be judged. If Kirby had a wobble I would still want it banned. Whatever tho, I don't want to get into whether it's banworthy I just personally don't like the move and am glad it's not allowed at my locals and I don't mind if people don't respect me for saying that.
Generally speaking it's kinda been a long standing myth imo that ICs really struggle to get sync'd grabs or that it takes so much skill to get that grab that the ease of wobbling afterwards is acceptable. They have an up tilt that forces FFers to tech at 0. There's two of them and they have good projectiles and a good jab grab. They have great tools. I feel like any ICs player knows deep down that wobbling is a really big boost for them, even if they don't want to come out and say it since it's such a controversial subject.
I just feel like if Fox or Falco had a wobble everyone would ban that asap but it's deemed acceptable on ICs just because of the ICs being relatively "bad" makes up for how overpowered wobbling is, which on principle is not the way I feel the move should be judged. If Kirby had a wobble I would still want it banned. Whatever tho, I don't want to get into whether it's banworthy I just personally don't like the move and am glad it's not allowed at my locals and I don't mind if people don't respect me for saying that.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
ok so the whole due process thing doesnt exist for a ban because:
-no one can agree on any ban criteria in the first place
therefore
-how can one side have evidence for a ban when the evidence of one side might be evidence for the other side, since they are arguing about two different things
in this case whatever deserves a ban could be different for every single person, and since no one agrees on whether u need documented history of something being gamebreaking (WHATEVER THAT MEANS), or if something can be preemptively banned, or whether we can ban something that we just dont like
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BURDEN OF PROOF
because no one even knows what needs to be proven
lmao
it looks like u think something needs to generate tournmanet results before people even need to pay attention to that
well obviously u are already on a different page form many people.
i dont think u understand that u are acting like there is some defined system for banning in the first place. cause theres not. u yourself said that wobble ban was knee jerk, and there is no system. if u want to create one, have fun, because either no one will agree with it or they will just ignore it. mbr can make a ruleset and TO's might follow it, but maybe not
dont make an argument acting like a standard exists when it in fact doesnt at all
and yes i can say something is ban worthy cause i have my own opinion of what ban worthy is
the thing is is that i actually understand this. when i say something is ban worthing, im speaking as a person, not as some arbiter of justice for the smash community
inc trolls who dont understand any of this either, gogogo
-no one can agree on any ban criteria in the first place
therefore
-how can one side have evidence for a ban when the evidence of one side might be evidence for the other side, since they are arguing about two different things
in this case whatever deserves a ban could be different for every single person, and since no one agrees on whether u need documented history of something being gamebreaking (WHATEVER THAT MEANS), or if something can be preemptively banned, or whether we can ban something that we just dont like
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BURDEN OF PROOF
because no one even knows what needs to be proven
lmao
it looks like u think something needs to generate tournmanet results before people even need to pay attention to that
well obviously u are already on a different page form many people.
i dont think u understand that u are acting like there is some defined system for banning in the first place. cause theres not. u yourself said that wobble ban was knee jerk, and there is no system. if u want to create one, have fun, because either no one will agree with it or they will just ignore it. mbr can make a ruleset and TO's might follow it, but maybe not
dont make an argument acting like a standard exists when it in fact doesnt at all
and yes i can say something is ban worthy cause i have my own opinion of what ban worthy is
the thing is is that i actually understand this. when i say something is ban worthing, im speaking as a person, not as some arbiter of justice for the smash community
inc trolls who dont understand any of this either, gogogo
I think, in an environment with no system in place that would benefit from having one, it would be better to at least try to establish one than to say "well, it might not work out" and just give up.
You're lucky I'm leaving work right now and don't have the time to finish this up. I'm not through with you haven lol.
All I'm gonna say is that the community often leaves the decision of crafting the most balanced ruleset possible to the MBR; made up of the most outspoken, intellectual, and skilled players in the community. It's made up of people who've been around the community long enough to see just how degenerative some tactics can be when left unregulated, and they use that as a benchmark.
And yeah, there are 2 different kinds of ban-worthy definitions right now:
-Those who think something will harm the current metagame
-Those who just don't want to deal with a tactic or stage b/c it's "gay"
back later for more.
All I'm gonna say is that the community often leaves the decision of crafting the most balanced ruleset possible to the MBR; made up of the most outspoken, intellectual, and skilled players in the community. It's made up of people who've been around the community long enough to see just how degenerative some tactics can be when left unregulated, and they use that as a benchmark.
And yeah, there are 2 different kinds of ban-worthy definitions right now:
-Those who think something will harm the current metagame
-Those who just don't want to deal with a tactic or stage b/c it's "gay"
back later for more.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
exactly. why not establish one?
smash is grassroots anyway, and the mbr has a precedent of not doing anything useful ever...
thats the problem. if the mbr was an established leader (not saying they should be) then their rules would be respected. they could ban whatever or not ban whatever and itd be ok
as of now its just a hive of ideas that no one can coherently bring together. smash is so grassroots anyway.
edit: didnt see king post
bring it on. jk
but honestly didnt someone say that the mbr didnt want to ban wobbling? i thought i read that, and hear we have wobbling banned at every national in the past year, right?
also didnt pink reaper get in the mbr ROFL OKOK im done but holy ****..... how..
and those categories do simpify a bit, but even in those to schools there are many more divisions. its almost like congress but with less real talking and more than half of the people with opinions arent informed enough to even give one.
smash is grassroots anyway, and the mbr has a precedent of not doing anything useful ever...
thats the problem. if the mbr was an established leader (not saying they should be) then their rules would be respected. they could ban whatever or not ban whatever and itd be ok
as of now its just a hive of ideas that no one can coherently bring together. smash is so grassroots anyway.
edit: didnt see king post
bring it on. jk
but honestly didnt someone say that the mbr didnt want to ban wobbling? i thought i read that, and hear we have wobbling banned at every national in the past year, right?
also didnt pink reaper get in the mbr ROFL OKOK im done but holy ****..... how..
and those categories do simpify a bit, but even in those to schools there are many more divisions. its almost like congress but with less real talking and more than half of the people with opinions arent informed enough to even give one.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Depends on the match-up, but yes, ICs players can generally get synced grabs because that is half of our meta-game, lol.
Um, no. Wobbling isn't a big boost for them, it just makes what they can already do easier.
A good ICs player can generally KO off of a grab anyway with dair > re-grab, grab smashes, hand-off, etc...
There is no reason to treat Wobbling differently to any other tactic or move in the game just because it's "gay".
If Kirby had Shine (which is better than Wobbling by far) would you ban him? Of course not, you're just biased.
Pengie
Smash Lord
Hmmm, that makes sense, but I still don't think that in the grand scheme of things Wobbling needs to be banned or even regulated beyond the point of "no stalling" rules. The real problem that I see most people having with wobbling is that most people don't want to learn how to play safer than they are already accustomed. In most cases, they'd rather mindlessly rush at each other than alter the way that they play.
Niko45
Smash Master
I've played good ICs and I've absolutely never been 0-death'd off a sync grab before as Marth. I don't think I've ever seen that in a video either unless the floaty completely flubbed the DI on an fsmash or something. What you're talking about applies to fastfallers from what I can see, but it drastically improves ICs vs floaties (which can be a huge struggle for them without the epic grab punish. I know from talking to ICs that characters like Ganon and even Luigi are really problematic because you just can't punish them that well).
Well it is really gay, but my problem is that I feel it's overpowered. I don't think any character should have an *automatic* kill from grab. Even the characters in the game with extremely powerful grab games (sheik, CF, Marth) will need a minimum of 2-3 reads to actually 0-death you from a grab. That's still pretty easy to do but at least it's not FREE. Whatever tho, I'm fully aware I'm biased so I'll just shut up about this now.
safehaven must have written the book on fallacious trolling masturbation. I think he may have even invented new, unbeatable fallacy techniques that bring base-level stupidity down to a whole new level. I'm sorry for King since he obviously is trying to make a point to someone who is so dull that he himself will blunt any logical efforts to bring what is relevant to light.
Theftz22
Smash Lord
"That's philosophical bunkum!"
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Yes, I was talking about fast-fallers.
Ice Climbers generally don't do that great vs. floaties, so I see no issue in boosting their MUs against them.
If it was over-powered, Ice Climbers would win tournaments.
Jonas
Smash Champion
He's actually begun to say something smart. Any attempt to supply evidence for Jigglypuff's planking being broken is futile since there exists no agreed upon criteria which this proof has to meet.
Still not a reason to ban it though
there can be no existing reason to ban the technique since it has not actually been utilized by any one in the tournament scene, ever.
IF top level brackets were to degrade to the point that you could only play puff to win, or if PLANKING-PUFF was the only feasible style of play at the highest level (I.E. Gen2) the technique would then be bannable. However, all we have now is one puff player placing in bracket (Hbox) who is too stupid( <--dear juan, please read as sarcasm <3 ) to utilize this unbeatable technique to its fullest.
IF top level brackets were to degrade to the point that you could only play puff to win, or if PLANKING-PUFF was the only feasible style of play at the highest level (I.E. Gen2) the technique would then be bannable. However, all we have now is one puff player placing in bracket (Hbox) who is too stupid( <--dear juan, please read as sarcasm <3 ) to utilize this unbeatable technique to its fullest.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
no one understands that what i actually say makes sense to people who arent stupid
like i know all of u guys arent that smart but at LEAST be willing to learn?
brookman u are the most useless person in the world probably. u dont even say anything. u cant say why my arguments are bad cause u dont even know.
and with this last post u have confirmed that you have a view of banning, but cant accept others have a different view, and are too stupid to do anything but troll other people
who says its unbeatable and who cares
so u only ban unbeatable things, or things that u can sarcastically call unbeatable? come on bro make sense lol
like i know all of u guys arent that smart but at LEAST be willing to learn?
brookman u are the most useless person in the world probably. u dont even say anything. u cant say why my arguments are bad cause u dont even know.
and with this last post u have confirmed that you have a view of banning, but cant accept others have a different view, and are too stupid to do anything but troll other people
who says its unbeatable and who cares
so u only ban unbeatable things, or things that u can sarcastically call unbeatable? come on bro make sense lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0U0AlLVqpk, trust me dude. I feel your pain.
Max?
Smash Champion
That band had so much potential, especially the vocalist. I wonder how they fell into obscurity considering the strength of the vocals and the quality of the lyrical content. The music industry can be so frugal sometimes.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
stop being a dumb troll when the thread actually starts to go places
i dont know if thats possible. at least 1 person besides me now understands how impossible the whole argument is to lay out in clear terms
brookman why do u even post lol. like i dont even know
do u even play smash or are u just some random lurker who doesnt understand what logic and reasoning are or how they actually work. or what established first principles are and how u need them to build an argument
i dont know if thats possible. at least 1 person besides me now understands how impossible the whole argument is to lay out in clear terms
brookman why do u even post lol. like i dont even know
do u even play smash or are u just some random lurker who doesnt understand what logic and reasoning are or how they actually work. or what established first principles are and how u need them to build an argument
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Kirby with the Shine is still horrible.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I want to shift the discussion a little. I don't really care anymore about whether or not planking or wobbling or anything should be banned.
My question to you is, you obviously think that something should be banned even if it isn't unbeatable or tested in tournament. You seem to have a totally unique criteria on whats bannable.
My question is, why do you think its ok to ban something purely on conjecture? If we banned this right now, how would that benefit/improve the game?
to put it another way, why do you think its so important we listen to hax/m2k right now? What exactly is at risk if we don't?
Max?
Smash Champion
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
ICs are one of the few remaining (good) characters that are arguably well matched against Puff. And most of them don't feel Marth is particularly horrible nowadays (at least in the high level circles). I also haven't really heard of ICs complain or bemoan the Samus/Luigi matchups in a long time. It really just seems like it's Peach that's irksome nowadays (and even then, Wobbles contests that).
Sinji
Smash Master
This thread got some ratings
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I'm not saying they get ***** by floaties, but Marth, Peach and Samus all have an advantage over ICs. The Marios are about even, same with Jigglypuff.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
no i dont
case by case. stop trying to make these big assumptions lol.
honestly this probably wont even affect me, cause im just starting to relearn melee after a 6 month break. i just want to have fun with the game
i would ask why u dont respect their opinions over your own. i respect hax a lot for doing ridiculous things with a weak character. i respect mew2king for being incredibly honest and being knowledgeable about the workings of the game.
i think its ok to ban anything if its going to keep people from enjoying the game.
thats my philosophy and anyone trying to apply it to any specific case will probably *** up, so dont try and then act like im the one making reasoning errors lol
i would also ask why not ban it. why would anyone want to do this anyway? if a ledge grab rule is created (think less about banning something and more about adding a new rule, and maybe the dumb liberals in this thread will calm down?)
another question is why does no one else really respect hax and m2k's opinions over their own, and recognize that the people who have experienced it might be right regardless if theorycraft.
im a cs major but used to be chemistry, and am a scientist at heart. if u have observed something firsthand, there is more weight on your words than on anyone else's. in order to call someone's judgement bad, u must have a reason why it is bad or why yours is better
at this time there doesnt seem to be any better views than hax/m2k who understand this a bit, and there is nothing that can be called realistically "bad" with their point of view
i honestly didnt think it should be banned when i first posted, i was just annoyed at the people who didnt seem to care about their viewpoints. but i became convinced this might be a good idea.
what would be wrong with a ledgegrab rule anyway. its not like it has to be impossible to get around, but why would u want a puff getting a lead and then going to do that? not at a major tourney, but at a local? where u just want to enjoy the game, and then some puff starts being a ******? your not banning "planking" per se, youre banning planking for a certain window of time.
cause in smash bros u need to be brave and not chill out on the edge like a little *****
Pengie
Smash Lord
Why do people even bother with trolls like Safehaven? The new ignore feature completely wipes away any trace of illiterates like him.
protip: Use the ignore list if you want to prevent any headaches on these forums =D
protip: Use the ignore list if you want to prevent any headaches on these forums =D
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
Re: Ice Cllimbers: wobbling > good chaingrabbing, because of sdi mixups which make chaingrabs not guaranteed. Also Fox is IC's worst matchup IMO, because Fox separates/kills Nana really easily, and because ICies can grab-death anyone, so Fox being especially susceptible to comboing isn't as useful, although dash-attack to death is nice.
Anyway all the top tiers can kill from 20ish in certain circumstances, so why should ICs be different?
Anyway all the top tiers can kill from 20ish in certain circumstances, so why should ICs be different?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Fox isn't their worst match-up, that honor would go to Peach.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I respect their opinion. I don't think anyone here doesn't respect their opinion.
That's fine if it is your opinion. But most people would disagree with this criteria.
The reason why we won't ban it is because the precedent for banning things in the community for a full decade has been first and foremost on the way it proves to degenerate tournament play and effect results. Items, as well as most, if not all the banned stages, were first used in tournament, atleast for a time until they showed the ability to disrupt TOURNAMENT play. That is why we just won't up and ban this tactic, it goes entirely against the precedent we have held for 10 years.
The reason why we won't make a simple ledgegrab rule is because, what if we go ahead and institute a arbitrary number limit right now, and then a person legitimately exceeds that limit at genesis without trying to plank or stall and loses their bracket match? What have we caused? This goes back to needing to test this is tournament. We don't currently know where a good limit would be even if we wanted to create a rule.
Because the theorycraft was proved to be wrong by magus pages ago using frame data.
If you really are a scientist at heart, then you of all people would understand the need for PEER REVIEW in the field before anything is published or released to the public. Not to mention the dozens of clinical trials and lab experiments. Likewise, one person may discover something, but the entire relevent field of scientists still make sure all things check out before they publish the material.
Again, it has nothing to do with respecting m2k and hax, or them being wrong, it has more to do with precedent. We have never banned something just because a few players thought it was really powerful. If we did that, this game would never have become successful. Before Armada beat Hbox at pound 5, he firmly held the believe that Jigglypuff as a CHARACTER should be banned. Then he developed a skill with a low tier and did the unthinkable and the community moved forward. We can't just go around banning things at the whim of top players, because then NOTHING would be allowed. Let the game develop, thats all people have been saying. Hax and M2k might be right, FINE, lets see it in tournament.. thats all we ask for.
Individual TOs can do whatever they want at local tournies.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
How is that doing poorly? It's not like they do significantly better against the fast fallers :/
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
That's true KK, I retract my statement.
Everlasting Laughter
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2011
- Messages
- 57
I've always felt ics for even roughy with space animals falcon gannon and puff.
How I see this is a chance to expand our metagame if proven not broken which is very likly.
When h box came in with his puff everyone fell to him but mango and slowly other players learned to counter his tactics pushing the puff and having falco rise up(not on the tier list but real life metagame there's a difference right after it's made). Say puff does this tactic gets better/more players this puts pressure on old tactics like laser camping to move on to something new and maybe we we invent a tactic mich more entertaining or clever or lower rated charcters will rise up for their time to shine maybe bowser for his up b to the edge and fire breath or g&w for his abilty to go farther up with more disjointed hitboxes than the spacies have.
If this tactic isn't broken I can only see it as helping the game long term.
How I see this is a chance to expand our metagame if proven not broken which is very likly.
When h box came in with his puff everyone fell to him but mango and slowly other players learned to counter his tactics pushing the puff and having falco rise up(not on the tier list but real life metagame there's a difference right after it's made). Say puff does this tactic gets better/more players this puts pressure on old tactics like laser camping to move on to something new and maybe we we invent a tactic mich more entertaining or clever or lower rated charcters will rise up for their time to shine maybe bowser for his up b to the edge and fire breath or g&w for his abilty to go farther up with more disjointed hitboxes than the spacies have.
If this tactic isn't broken I can only see it as helping the game long term.
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