Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Steeler]

bowser only has 10 frames?? o_O

well that explains why he has so much grab release bull**** but still...

 

[DemonFart]

Oh, I thought Bowser and DK both had 20 frames. But yeah, Lucas and Ness get ****ed from a grab release.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

B canceling is really good stuff. I avoid so many Juggles as Charizard that way.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Steeler]

what the hell is this sciency conspiracy bs

lol jk

that's.......really weird and interesting to say the least. never heard of anything like that before.

 

[DemonFart]

Sounds cool, I haven't heard of anything like that before either.

DO THAT RESEARCH, DAWG!

 

[Miles.]

i just didnt know what matabird was saying.

is what pokemonmasterIRL saying correct? Bowser and DK have advantage versus everyone else when they get grab released? and lucas and ness just really suck?

wtf.

ofcourse.

 

[IsmaR]

@Masky - Interesting. I did notice Charizard's N-air has special properties. I'll try finding some details on certain characters tomorrow.

And haiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii PT boards.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Steeler]

um wait

so

you can hit them even if you are on the other side of the stage or what?

 

[DemonFart]

Interesting information I've found so far (that can actually be applied to Charizard's nair):

DK, Samus, ROB's body (not head), and Luigi ONLY while he's in his ledge animation where he's leaning off the edge (WTF?? lol) exist everywhere on the z-axis and can be hit by the "flame" of charizard's nair

I'll make a bigger post when I've gone through every character

Interesting, hmmm...I'm still not too certain on all of this stuff...

um wait

so

you can hit them even if you are on the other side of the stage or what?

Oh but of course.

 

[Toby.]

^ looks like a case of identity theft to me.

 

[DemonFart]

Yeah, I joined the stronger side, I joined the Steeler side. You should as well.

Now to make this post somewhat on topic....

I think Charizard is pretty cool. Too bad he's not big enough.

EDIT: Actually, that would be a bad idea. Lul...

 

[T-block]

This z-axis stuff is messed. Why would they program Brawl like that... I dunno why they'd program hitboxes in three dimensions for a 2D fighter?

It's definitely interesting though... I'd help you test, but I'm not completely sure I understand xP

 

[Toby.]

it was in melee as well.

just grab melee ganon and use side b while falco shoots a laser; the laser will go straight past him because he is moving in the background whilst the laser is in the foreground.

 

[Charizard92]

I kinda get why they put it in (the side steps and rolls), but the fact that Super Smash Bros. actually uses the Z axis for an actual purpose outside design is beyond me.

 

[Zigsta]

Does anyone ever use Charizard's infinite jump to catch someone in uairs? I've just never seen or heard of it being used in tournament play.

I'd really like to look more into uair. The hitbox is very interesting--a lot of times people aren't expecting to be hit by the attack on the way down.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Uair is my favorite Charizard aerial, I love how long it lingers and can often times hit "through" air dodges.

It sets up that thing that Squirtle can do where you hit them off the platform while they're shielding pretty well. This is why I like Battlefield with Charizard when I'm in the middle of the platforms.

Although I hate the stage when I'm on the outside of the platforms, it can be hard to get back on with him sometimes.

 

[Steeler]

i kinda prefer nair. it's similar but horizontally inclined. just my playstyle preference i guess.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I never U-air >:[
I almost always SH aerials and U-air gives me bad lag :/

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's the only thing about it, you can't use it too low to the ground. I use it in the mid percents where they get to at least full-hop or higher.

If I could make Brawl however I wanted I would make Uair lagless out of SH and Utilt have a little less cooldown.

 

[B.A.M.]

so about zards z-axis hitbox. does this mean theoretically if rob hangs on to the ledge, zard could just run off and nair and rob wouldt be hit regardless of his ledge invincibility?

 

[T-block]

Nope

If I'm understanding this correctly, hitting ROB out of his spotdodge doesn't actually mean you're hitting him through invincibility. Invincibility frames are actually invincibility frames, so n-air won't hit ROB on the ledge. This spotdodge business refers to the fact that towards the end of his spotdodge, ROB isn't actually invincible - he's just on another plane so a lot of attacks miss. Charizard's n-air is on that plane as well though, so he can still hit.

Am I doing this right...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nope

If I'm understanding this correctly, hitting ROB out of his spotdodge doesn't actually mean you're hitting him through invincibility. Invincibility frames are actually invincibility frames, so n-air won't hit ROB on the ledge. This spotdodge business refers to the fact that towards the end of his spotdodge, ROB isn't actually invincible - he's just on another plane so a lot of attacks miss. Charizard's n-air is on that plane as well though, so he can still hit.

Am I doing this right...

This is correct.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

so, charizards nair allows us to hit through robs spotdodge?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

so, charizards nair allows us to hit through robs spotdodge?

It allows you hit his upper body when the invincibility frames wear off. Most characters cannot.

 

[Charizard92]

cool, we have a move that can hurt ROB after a spot dodge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

cool, we have a move that can hurt ROB after a spot dodge.

It is, since most characters can't really touch ROB.

His spotdodge is as bad (as good?) as almost all other characters, but because of the Z-Axis issue, it's a lot better than what it "should" be.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

so, spot dodges have invincibility frames, and z axis frames? can anyone post exactly, maybe just for ROB as an example, the frame details of the spotdodge so we can know exactly when we can hit people out of their spotdodges. Right now I am operating under the idea that robs spot dodge starts with invincibility frames, they wear off but he is still in the z axis so you still can't hit him, then he comes back to standing position with the normal vulnerability frames.

 

[T-block]

^Yeah that's the idea

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wrote the first three-fourths of it earlier, and now I'm tired, which is why there seems to be less information there. Either way, this is the Charizard part--enjoy it.

Charizard

Jab - Charizard swipes at the opponent with his tiny dinosaur arms up to three times. This thing is not very good. Frame 4 is relatively slow for a jab, and the space in-between jabs is pretty large, as well. If you're having trouble with people shielding Squirtle's jab combo, then this will be even worse for you. Still, it does decent damage and it has okay range. Spamming the A button makes the combo come out much more quickly than if you hold the button, so be aware of that. One nice thing to note is that you can cancel the second jab and land many quick attacks, like another jab combo, a grab, or a sweetspotted D-Tilt, at high percents.

Forward-Tilt - Charizard swings his body and, consequently, his tail, horizontally at the opponent. It's not a spammable move, as it has a fairly large cooldown and the startup isn't great. However, it has decent knockback, damage, power, and wonderful range. Keep that range in mind when you're looking for a move to keep the opponent at bay. You can also angle this move up or down--the down-angled version can hit opponents on the ledge, and the up-angled version helps to deal with some short-hop approaches.

Up-Tilt - Charizard performs a small hop with his wings pointing straight upward to pierce the opponent. This move is an amazing anti-air attack, as it has great range and is fast to start and ends quickly. The knockback is decent and the damage is solid. It covers a pretty large area on top of you, which makes it very difficult for any opponent to come in on you from straight above. It's also pretty good for juggling, so between this move, U-Air, and U-Smash, many opponents should have trouble getting down from the air against you.

Down-Tilt - Charizard crouches low and stabs forward with a closed mouth. This move is pretty much anything you could ask for in a KO-inducing tilt--amazing knockback (when sweetspotted), quick to start, quick to end, nice damage, and great range. Since Charizard starts the move by leaning back, he can dodge attacks while doing it (as a result, it's a solid option as an attack after a grab-release). It's a great follow-up for any short-hopped aerial and will keep you safe when used intelligently.

Dash Attack - Charizard kicks straight forward with one of his legs, Big Boot-style. This move is slow, deals little knockback, leaves you terribly open when shielded, and is not worth the damage no matter when it's used. Its only practical use is attempting to hit an opponent who is attempting to come over the ledge, and even then, it's usually the worst possible option. If it's any consolation, the hitbox stays out for a decent while, but so do most dash attacks. Charizard leans back when he does this attack, so keep this in mind. Try to avoid using this move much, if at all.

Neutral-Air - Charizard does a frontflip, attacking the opponent with his whole body. This move stays out for a while and deals decent damage--standard fare for a Neutral-Air. Not much KO potential, and the move is only lagless when done immediately. Still, it's a good move to read air-dodges with, and it's fairly safe. Keep in mind that the end of the animation takes a while, so if you do it in the air, you won't be able to do anything else for a while.

Forward-Aerial - Charizard flaps his wings forward and breathes out embers. This move has amazing gimping potential, as the sweetspot's knockback is always quite good, even at low percents. This move is lagless when used immediately from a short-hop, and is relatively safe as such. Doesn't do a lot of damage, but it will always put the opponent in a bad position, so don't be afraid to throw it out and attempt an easy gimp.

Back-Aerial - Charizard quickly swings his tail horizontally behind himself. This is one of Charizard's premier KO moves--very fast, and the sweetspot has great knockback, range and deals heavy damage. Also, the move hits twice--it helps because if the opponent is near the edge of a platform, the first hit will knock them off and the second (more damaging one) will hurt them even if they shield the first one. Something to note is that the first hit is a weak spike, so, while you won't be gimping people often, it can work in your favor from time to time.

Up-Aerial - Charizard sticks his head up in the air in a stiff fashion. This move isn't good for its knockback, but because it stays out for twenty-one frames, it is easy to hit people at the vulnerable part of their spotdodge with this. It's a great juggle move as a result, and should give many opponents trouble when combined with your two double-jumps. Don't be afraid to attempt a juggle with this if your opponent prefers to be offensive when recovering from above.

Down-Aerial - Charizard stomps down from above. This is among the more powerful Meteor Smashes in the game--it's a good gimping move. It's fairly slow, though, so it's usually not easy to land. However, there is a ridiculous disjointed hitbox below Charizard's feet, so that helps it remain safe. You can actually full-hop a D-Air and hit most characters, regardless of what it looks like, so that's a good thing to throw out from time to time. Between this move and your F-Air, gimps should come naturally for you.

Neutral-B - Charizard breathes fire in front of himself. This move is a big part of Charizard's spacing game, and shuts down many characters' approach game by itself. It lasts as long as you hold the button, although the longer you hold it, the smaller the flames become. You can aim the direction of the fire stream by holding up or down. Holding up is usually the best course of action, to maximize the area you cover. When used in short bursts, you should almost never get punished for using this. If the opponent attempts to Smash DI toward you, just keep using the move--you're going to get punished if they get behind you, and you're going to get punished if you stop using Neutral-B, so you may as well maximize the damage dealt to the opponent. Also, using this on an off-stage opponent has many merits--they can't easily jump out (and sometimes at all!), so they're guaranteed to take a ton of damage in that way. If you jump out to edgeguard, you can use Flamethrower to "eat" their double-jump if they try to read your spike attempt and jump over you. Give it a thought.

Rock Smash - I'm not even going to properly list this as Forward-B. That's how cool this move is. Charizard is obviously the best character in the game, because he has four Smash Attacks rather than three. Seriously, my favorite character in the game is Rock Smash.

Now that I'm done with that, I'm going to really explain this move. Charizard grabs a rock (from...somewhere--don't question it) and breaks it with a headbutt. The rock itself is a disjointed object that can be broken by any attack (which is why the headbutt portion breaks it); when broken, the rock splits into NINE different shards in the immediate area. The headbutt does about eighteen damage, but if you can get the shards to hit as well, this move has the potential to deal FORTY-FIVE PERCENT. JESUS ****. The headbutt has incredible KO potential, and because the rocks act as small projectiles, it's relatively safe to spam. When an opponent hits the rock (but not Charizard), the shards will immediately fly at them, and since the rock comes out on Frame 3, it can function as a devastating counter of sorts. If the opponent's shield is somewhat small, this will usually get through. However, you WILL get punished if it's shielded completely, so don't think it's the ultimate approach/defense. A B-reversed Rock Smash can trick an opponent into running into it. Find ways to throw this move in--it's phenomenal.

Up-B - Charizard flies upward, spinning as he goes. This move has super armor frames on Frame 4 and beyond. It has good knockback and deals nice damage--combined with two double-jumps, Charizard has a solid recovery in this. Because of the super armor, it's more difficult to get gimped, and you can use it as an anti-air in itself. Also, if you anticipate certain moves, you can super-armor through them. It's just asking to get punished if you don't hit the opponent, though, so be careful with that.

Forward-Smash - Charizard leans back, tucks his head in, and does a horizontal sweeping headbutt. This move is slow, even for a Smash, but its knockback and damage potential is enormous. Since Charizard moves back before doing the attack, it can be used to dodge and counter when you read an opponent well. This move also times perfectly to punish all spotdodges when used at the same time, so keep that in mind. This has great range, but is pretty punishable, so make sure this lands when you throw it out.

Up-Smash - Charizard swings his wings back and forth for two hits above him. The hitbox is up and slightly in front of Charizard, so it covers you well in tandem with U-Tilt. There's nice range in this. It's also very fast start-up wise, especially for a Smash, so use that to your advantage. This is one of Charizard's most reliable KO moves. Since it hits twice, it's a good option for when the opponent is on a platform, as the first hit can knock an opponent off.

Down-Smash - Charizard slams the ground with a violent jump, creating a shockwave in the ground around him. This move has decent knockback and damage, although it is a bit slow. The hitbox travels along the ground; that can be a good thing (good for shield-stabbing) or a bad thing (can't hit a jumping opponent) depending on the situation. It covers both sides well and it has decent range. It's still far from spammable, but it can help you deal with dodges in general fairly well.

Standing grab - Charizard's standing grab has amazing range--he is among the few characters that can do a standing grab on the opponent after a grab-release without having to move forward at all. Frame 6 is standard and awesome.

Running grab - Frame 8, but otherwise the same thing. Why the hell not?

Pivot grab - Makes Charizard's wonderful range even longer. Give it some thought.

Grab pummel - Charizard scratches the opponent with his face. (Nuzzle-nuzzle-nuzzle.) Every little bit helps, and if you're going for a grab-release, you'll need to do it. Charizard can prevent an air-release all the time with a constant pummeling, so that's good.

Forward-Throw - Charizard grabs the opponent in his mouth, swings the opponent and throws him forward. Not much KO potential, but it deals decent damage and is a good option when it will get the opponent off the stage. Generally sends the opponent at a 45-degree angle.

Back-Throw - Charizard slings the opponent over his shoulder. About the same damage as the Forward-Throw, but is slightly stronger and sends the opponent slightly higher up. Same use as the Forward-Throw.

Up-Throw - Charizard puts the opponent on his mouth and hits them upward. This is Charizard's most damaging throw, and sets up well for juggles. It will KO at about 170%.

Down-Throw - Charizard puts the opponent on the ground and breathes fire on them. Somehow, this move deals the least amount of damage (by far) and deals the most knockback. If you're near the edge, it will KO the opponent at about 150% or so. Not something to rely on, but it's something. It's also your best option if you want to switch to Squirtle, especially because your grab range is excellent.

 

[Steeler]

solid as always

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Yestarday I was thinking about this. Doesn't Charizard have a grab release CG on Ness and Lucas? I think that somewhere I read that Ness and Lucas have 10 extra lag frames when coming out of a grabrelease. Charizard doesn't need to move to regrab out of a release as most of us will know, so isn't he able to do an unescapable CG on Ness and Lucas?

I tested this in training and the CPU that I used could not escape this. (I putted him on attack)

 

[SuSa]

Yestarday I was thinking about this. Doesn't Charizard have a grab release CG on Ness and Lucas? I think that somewhere I read that Ness and Lucas have 10 extra lag frames when coming out of a grabrelease. Charizard doesn't need to move to regrab out of a release as most of us will know, so isn't he able to do an unescapable CG on Ness and Lucas?

I tested this in training and the CPU that I used could not escape this. (I putted him on attack)

Can't... all of the pokemon take a step and grab on Ness? Lucas also just needs to hold away, seems to avoid the regrab. Although I still think you can walk > grab. <_<

Thought this grab release stuff on Ness/Lucas was...ages...old...

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Can't... all of the pokemon take a step and grab on Ness? Lucas also just needs to hold away, seems to avoid the regrab. Although I still think you can walk > grab. <_<

Thought this grab release stuff on Ness/Lucas was...ages...old...

Ah, sorry then. I was curious about this.

 

[T-block]

Both Squirtle and Charizard can grab release chain with a dash grab on both Lucas and Ness. If they don't hold away, then you can infinite, but most people know to hold away when they get grabbed now. I find Squirtle's grab release chain to be a lot easier to pull off then Charizard. For Charizard you need near-perfect buffering I think - when it comes to Charizard I usually don't even bother with grab releasing straight into grab... he has good options without it.

 

[Vermy]

If Ness doesn't air release, you can basically hold R/L and mash A till you're at the edge. Lucas is a bit trickier, step and grab and fairly specific timing.

 

[Charizard92]

The Earthbound boys have a REALLY hard time. No wonder they dropped on the tier list.

Think, we had a low tier placement thanks to a relatively unforgiving fatigue system, forced switching, and most importantly, general unpopularity meant that only like 10 people were actively working on strategy. If the PT boards weren't so strategy minded [I have been on other boards scouting for their match ups of us. We are among the most serious], we'd be outright screwed.

Imagine how troublesome being regrabbed by countless characters, and only being slightly modified for each Character?

 

[MaTA]

yeah thats banned in FL now...

 

[Masky]

..........