Charizard Tactical Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

Cleaning this up!

I'm gonna try to go through this thread and find useful information said about each move in order to lump it together in the OP. This way, the information doesn't get lost to people who aren't checking the thread once a week.

 

[ssbmaster2007]

Hm, I can certainly see where that could be effective, as I have tried it from time to time myself, but I often, when the foe is not to far off from the edge that I'm at, and the entire character is slightly over Charizard's head level, just approach them to give them a little taste of his Fair, it blows foes away good.

When they're below, I come rushing down with a Dair to spike them to their doom.

As for recovering safely, air dodging projectiles with good timing is important, and if it is a direct attack from a foe, try mid air jumping to get up to a good level with the target, while at the same time performing an air dodge to go through the attack.

Doing so should get the foe behind you, a good time to Bair the foe off the side of the screen, try to get enough distance between you and the foe, so you'll catch the foe with the flame at the end of Charizard's tail, sweet spotting that attack is nearly as strong as Zelda's Lightning Kicks, but seems much easier to sweet spot, an excellent attack, I am a fan of those strong tail slams.

For your ground game, relatively frequently use his 3 standard attacks, they get off fairly fast, and do decent damage, and depending on the opponent's damage gauge, it can set up well for other attacks for combos.

While Rock Smash can be a superb way to make those damage gauges sky rocket (I've done as much as 49% with one use), going around spamming it isn't a good idea, found that out for myself.

It may deal big damage and have good knock back (especially in mid air, it's pretty much smash attack powered in air, so it can be a good finisher move for recovering foes), but it is slow, you are briefly vulnerable after starting the attack when Charizard hauls it's head back to smash the rock.

Something else good about Rock Smash, is that it can also be sort of a counter, sometimes when I start the move just before getting attacked, it gets shattered and the foe gets damaged too, but minimal knock back.

Flamethrower can be used very effectively if used at just the right time, it can be hard for the foe(s) to escape from very soon, so it can rack up dozens of points of damage pretty fast, I often find it more effective to aim the Flamethrower attack upwards a bit, seems to reach further horizontally.

And Fly, while mostly used for recovery, it can also be pretty effective for KOing foes off of the top of the screen, that is, as long as the last hit of the move lands, otherwise it doesn't really have much knock back at all, no real KO potential, only the last hit, but imo, it seems pretty easy to land it anyways, the other hits in the middle of the move may just build up a bit of damage.

 

[Charizard92]

I tried that, and, IT WORKS! I'm astonished at how well Charizard can gimp an opponent as well as he can smash them off the stage. This is very great against opponents that are hard to knock to the stage boundary (ex Bowser) while it takes awhile and is possibly better to smash someone who is light and can be hard to line up a Dair spike (which is the best aerial Charizard has to KO) like Jigglypuff. It's not impossible to reverse the two, just plain harder.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

You could have just renamed the other charizard thread you made...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well for charizard tactics i have some, first, spacing well can really improve your gorund game wuth ftilt and dtilt sweetspots( i fight with tose like i would play marth's tipper ) , that covers a lot of range in front of you and most of the times you wont get punishe, althought you would prefer using just one of those or try another tactics because of dimishing knockback. In the air charizard has literally two spikes, the dair( meteor smash, hard to hit with but its just matter of practice) and a "horizontal spike", the fair if done right acts almost like a meteor to the side of the screen!! :D . Oh yeah, and never understimate charizards gliding attack

 

[ssbmaster2007]

Yeah, I use his gliding attack from time to time, but he glides slowly, so sometimes I end up getting hit before I get close enough to hit the foe with the attack.

And while his glide may be the slowest of the 3 characters that can glide, I probably prefer it over the others, the other 2 characters glide almost too fast, especially pit, and I have trouble controlling it without just making a crash landing at the ground, while Charizard's, though more sluggish, is easier to follow, and imo, control.

I use his Fair a lot, describing it's effectiveness as being like a horizontal spike, acting like a meteor to the side of the screen, is very accurate, it's just another one of Charizard's powerful aerial attacks (I'd say the only mid air attacks that really lack power is his Uair, and Nair, though it covers a good surrounding area, it's good for making a bit of space between you and your opponent).

When in the air, I probably use his Fair more than anything, my second most used attack would probably be his Bair, it's very effective when you catch the foe with the flame at the end of his tail. His meteor smash is very effective too, his Dair can spike foes off the bottom off the screen at pretty low damage percentages, I find throwing a foe off an edge then spiking them down to get the job done pretty well.

To give an idea of how much range Charizard's Dair has, well, it can break the target directly beneath the floor where you start off in Level 3 Target Smash, I was surprised to discover this, it's impressive, I've used the move more since then.

 

[infernovia]

Since this hasn't been mentioned, I grab a lot. Its fast, the range is pretty massive, and you can do decent damage. If nothing else, it really stops your tilts and rock smashes from being expected.

 

[ssbmaster2007]

Yeah, I do some grabbing as well, but among other things, I don't do too much grabbing, though his down throw that torches the foe's face off has good knock back, and looks cool, I use that a decent bit.

When I use Flamethrower, I find it most effective to, while dashing, short hop and then use it, it has you moving towards the foe briefly after starting the most, so you keep the foe trapped in the flames a bit longer, since you are moving at them as you start the move and a short bit after.

I also short hop before executing Rock Smash as well, it maximizes the damage it does when the rock is smashed slightly above the foe.

 

[infernovia]

His Fthrow is better at low percentage, I usually use Dthrow to kill/set up for edgeguard.

 

[Charizard92]

I didn't rename my first thread namely because It looked like it should be left alone due to the fact that it would be a change in subject (and I think there are problems with that). I typically use flamethrower to raise my opponent's percentage (if they stick in the flame) and I'll guess I'll call this roasting (I think cooking is taken by Snake) which is essentially what Charizard is doing (roasting an opponent with a prolonged flamethrower) which included the first technique I named, Frying pan to fire (Roast an opponent over an edge and all they can do is continue getting fried or do something to avoid getting roasted [ex air dodge] and not being capable of recovering back [does not work on characters who can go around the stages bottom or with an up b super armor {examles include Jigglypuff, Pit, Meta knight, Charizard, Snake, and Ike}]).

 

[washy]

Yeah, I use his gliding attack from time to time, but he glides slowly, so sometimes I end up getting hit before I get close enough to hit the foe with the attack.

And while his glide may be the slowest of the 3 characters that can glide, I probably prefer it over the others, the other 2 characters glide almost too fast, especially pit, and I have trouble controlling it without just making a crash landing at the ground, while Charizard's, though more sluggish, is easier to follow, and imo, control.

Charizard's glide is actually pretty fast if you glide directly downwards. It might be capable of mind games to, start out with a docile horizontal glide, then swoop down at least twice as fast as you were going right before you hit your opponent.

 

[KernelColonel]

Try using well timed rock smashes.

Also, Bair approach is bananas with Charizard.

 

[Retro Gaming]

As far as throws go, they're all great. If your opponents at low percents and you're near the edge, throw them off and Dair them. It should be easy to catch up to them if you barely toss them anywhere.

I find that Charizard's Nair is great at luring attacks out, especially when you auto-cancel. Pretend to attack with it, but purposely fall short of your opponent. It should either make them shield (Grab), spot dodge (Grab), or come out to hit you (Jab).

Versus a few characters, its very easy for Charizard to grab release opponents who aren't expecting it. The damage is minimal, but it restores moves that have decayed, as well as serving as a possible mindgame. I've been meaning to get a list of characters that are very easy to regrab if they don't do anything, but just a few off the top of my head:

Marth
Olimar
Ness (Obviously)
Donkey Kong

 

[Charizard92]

So thats the point of auto canceling. I think I can do that (you perform the attack close to the ground right?)

 

[Retro Gaming]

No no, you perform it as soon as possible after you jump. You should have no (reduced) landing lag. But with Charizard, everything besides his Dair should have no landing lag. It's really just common sense, though. =/

 

[Fearmy]

As far as throws go, they're all great. If your opponents at low percents and you're near the edge, throw them off and Dair them. It should be easy to catch up to them if you barely toss them anywhere.

I find that Charizard's Nair is great at luring attacks out, especially when you auto-cancel. Pretend to attack with it, but purposely fall short of your opponent. It should either make them shield (Grab), spot dodge (Grab), or come out to hit you (Jab).

Versus a few characters, its very easy for Charizard to grab release opponents who aren't expecting it. The damage is minimal, but it restores moves that have decayed, as well as serving as a possible mindgame. I've been meaning to get a list of characters that are very easy to regrab if they don't do anything, but just a few off the top of my head:

Marth
Olimar
Ness (Obviously)
Donkey Kong

you forgot Fox

 

[Retro Gaming]

It was just off the top of my head. I didn't go through the whole cast in my head. =/

But yeah, Fox is also an easy one. I think I'm going to test that right now.

 

[Charizard92]

About the auto canceling, it appears that you have to short hop to do so. I don't short hop (the tap jump doesn't have such a thing and I find it hard), can you still auto cancel with an normal jump, or does it have to be a short jump?

 

[infernovia]

Auto cancelling is basically attacking so that when you land, the animation has finished, meaning you won't have any lag when you hit the ground. Its a very simple concept thats just gotten its own term because it allows you to spam aerial attacks a bit better.

And =/ about not shorthopping. You got the x and y button my friend.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Charizard can re-grab every character except the following out of a release:

Luigi
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Ike
Lucas

That's not saying its an infinite, a lot of characters have the potential to escape, often with a spot-dodge or roll. A few characters can jab out, and some can use various other attacks (Marth can use his Dolphin Slash, if he wanted to). However, some people may not know that about Charizard before looking into it, and you might be open to a few regrabs before they figure it out. It's useful as a mindgame, it slowly gets you closer to the edge, and it refreshes other moves that have decayed.

 

[Adriel]

About the auto canceling, it appears that you have to short hop to do so. I don't short hop (the tap jump doesn't have such a thing and I find it hard), can you still auto cancel with an normal jump, or does it have to be a short jump?

If you can auto cancel with a short hop then I think it would make sense that if you full hop it the move would be over even sooner before you hit the ground. Short hopping is possible with tap jump by the way, but it's a bit harder. You have to tap it lightly and let go of it quickly. This allows you to jump and use aerials at the exact same time making auto canceling easier, but I believe this is already very easy to do with Charizard by just using x or y instead.

 

[Charizard92]

I use the nunchuk controller, it's the c and up+ buttons, and how do you re-grab.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Grab them again as soon as they break free.

You can short-hop with C. =/

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, so, I'll try that, but you attack them with the A button right?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Right, or the "grab" button. If the Remote + Nunchuck has one. Just note all the above listed ways they could get out. Its more of a surprise tactic, not something to use all the time (I wouldn't, they'll learn how to get out much sooner).

For the people that learn to jab out, you can just shield grab them in between jabs, or something along those lines.

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, well I tried that and it works somewhat well at getting some damage, and (in Squirtle's case especially) Set up a KO throw (down for Squirtle and Charizard). I typically use shield grabs (Z or down + and A), but there are grab buttons (A and B or either side +). This is good with Charizard, but it is more of a necessity for Squirtle (who doesn't have a reliable quick damage move like Bullet seed or Flamethrower). Charizard can do this too, but he doesn't really need it because he can use a tilt attack (side and down) to knock someone of the stage, follow, and Dair spike them, and recover (however, Charizard can also use his tilts and smashes to kill too). I no longer use smash attacks as Charizard as a means of a KO move, or in general in that matter.

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's a pity, considering Charizard's Up and Down Smashes are both quick and powerful. Fsmash is even useful, in certain situations.

The chain handling is not meant to be a means of getting damage. Against a real opponent, they'll figure it out too soon if you abuse it. By the way, the list of characters Squirtle can regrab is much smaller than Charizard's. Its still pretty viable with him, though.

 

[Dizzynecro]

Charizard can re-grab every character except the following out of a release:

Luigi
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Ike
Lucas

That's not saying its an infinite, a lot of characters have the potential to escape, often with a spot-dodge or roll. A few characters can jab out, and some can use various other attacks (Marth can use his Dolphin Slash, if he wanted to). However, some people may not know that about Charizard before looking into it, and you might be open to a few regrabs before they figure it out. It's useful as a mindgame, it slowly gets you closer to the edge, and it refreshes other moves that have decayed.

You can turn this into a really nice mindgame by trying to predict rolls and dodges, basically you as a default action regrab them. If you think your opponent expects this regrab and will roll or dodge you can punish with a delayed grab or a rocksmash. It's really nice to rack up damage.

Also I'd like to note that upB out of sheild is really REALLY great for charizard, having the super armor and kiling poteintial that it does.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

I'd like to contribute to this thread by means of sharing some (somewhat unrelated) bits of insight.

- A good edgeguard against opponents who recover mostly from below is to glide down from the stage (saving a jump of course) and glide attacking them, then heading back. If they air dodge, their original plans for recovery will have been altered, and you will be in position to either attempt some spectacular stage spike with bair or another aerial, or up B towards the ledge to grab some invincibility frames. Glide attacks always outprioritize aerials, and it has very little lag, so the risk in this maneuver seems larger than it is. You already see MKs making great use of this.

- Nair and fair can end before you land from a SH. Retreating with either is usually safe provided you jab or dtilt upon landing.

- Dtilt is monstrous. Comes out fast, has good range, and kills, but perhaps most importantly is the fact that its IASA frames means you can quickly cancel it to a jab or a grab (or retreating SH).

- Charizard is at his best when under opponents, and at his worst when above them. When he's on the same plane as opponents, it's like "whatever, man". No but seriously, keeping people above you is priority number one, since with uair, utilt, and usmash, it is certainly a situation from which you can pour on serious damage.

- Rock smash is great.

- Abuse the grab range, and the dash speed. He's like melee Marth when it comes to tech chasing. If only dash dancing were still effective...

 

[Charizard92]

OK, wouldn't Charizard have more options on an opponent on a level plane. Also, I don't need to glide to an opponent really, I'd just spike them. Also, I do use smashes, guess I should use them more. And Finally, what is the point of a re-grab if it has way too many problems? Couldn't you link one or two and link it to a throw?

 

[infernovia]

I'd like to contribute to this thread by means of sharing some (somewhat unrelated) bits of insight.

- A good edgeguard against opponents who recover mostly from below is to glide down from the stage (saving a jump of course) and glide attacking them, then heading back. If they air dodge, their original plans for recovery will have been altered, and you will be in position to either attempt some spectacular stage spike with bair or another aerial, or up B towards the ledge to grab some invincibility frames. Glide attacks always outprioritize aerials, and it has very little lag, so the risk in this maneuver seems larger than it is. You already see MKs making great use of this.

Very interesting, I have never thought of this.

- Charizard is at his best when under opponents, and at his worst when above them. When he's on the same plane as opponents, it's like "whatever, man". No but seriously, keeping people above you is priority number one, since with uair, utilt, and usmash, it is certainly a situation from which you can pour on serious damage.

QFT. And emphasis.


I really really miss dashdancing. Its the funnest move ever.

 

[Charizard92]

Wait, didn't I explain away the level "what ever" thing?

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

OK, wouldn't Charizard have more options on an opponent on a level plane. Also, I don't need to glide to an opponent really, I'd just spike them. Also, I do use smashes, guess I should use them more. And Finally, what is the point of a re-grab if it has way too many problems? Couldn't you link one or two and link it to a throw?

On a level plane, most characters are about equal (subject, of course, to how good that character is in the first place). I pointed out that Charizard is like "whatever, man" to joke about how pointless it is to discuss that aspect. Usually how a character does above or below the opponent is what's discussed.


I also don't get why you have a problem with discussing edgeguarding options.

 

[WITH]

I don't have much more to add since most good strategies have been mentioned, but i think one of, if not the best killing moves charizard has is the dashing up smash. When someone is falling from the air and you are on the ground, run underneath and upsmash and they really cant do anything to stop it. Any airdodge will evade the first hit, but not the second. The only thing you must worry about is running a little too far where the first hit will not set up the second hit. This kills at moderate %s (i'm not sure exactly but around 130+ depending on decay)

 

[Charizard92]

Ok, I have tried that once or twice.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I really really miss dashdancing. Its the funnest move ever.

It's still in, just a little more difficult to do. And you might trip. =/

That glide attack seems useful, I will be incoporating it into my game for a while.

 

[infernovia]

I know, but I don't miss characters going left and right rapidly, I miss the options and the ability to incorporate them into mindgames. =/ I am playing smash 64 and like dash dancing (with other various tricks) to approach with the captain is like half of my game. Not to mention it just looks and feels awesome.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, I restarted using smash attacks (though not as often, namely on opponents I have trouble spiking) and it appears that for a Dsmash the opponent has to be on the ground, is this true. Anyway, Tilts, aerials (especially the spike) and tilts, these are where Charizard excels in, in terms of KOing an opponent.

 

[ssbmaster2007]

Yes, the opponent has to be on the ground for his Down Smash to hit, which is why I find it hard to damage foes with it, otherwise I'd use it more, it has pretty good range.

I've been practicing spiking opponents down, and have gotten quite good at it, I can KO foes off the bottom of the screen with little more than 30% damage, sometimes even less, depending on the character, and how close to the bottom of the screen the foe is.

I'd have to say his most effective smash attack is his Up Smash, very good when used while dashing, it always seems to catch the foe with both attacks.

And out of his tilts, I probably find myself using the Up Tilt most, I tend to often send foes up, Fair them off an edge, then spike them. That, or I may work the foe over to an edge, grab, then throw the foe off the edge to spike down, I can get a foe off the edge from a throw right from 0%, but the damage from the throw alone isn't quite enough to effectively spike the foe down.

I just recently started using his Down Tilt more, it's more useful then I though, when it hits perfectly, it has pretty good horizontal knock back, it's another useful move for getting a foe off the edge of a stage to spike or just knock off the side of the screen.

And it may sound like I get almost all of my KOs by spikes set up by one way or another, but I also get a lot of good KOs from Fairs, Bairs, and even may send a foe flying off the top of the screen from using his recovery move Fly, the last hit has a decent bit of knock back to it.

Is it just me, or am I going in circles a little bit?

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

I think Charizard's best killing moves are being ignored here. Dtilt is a great KO move, and Fly is more than just a move you can occasionally get a KO with, for laughs. If you get good with uair juggles and air dodge prediction, Fly will land you more than just a fair share of kills at moderate %s, given how you it drags the foe toward the ceiling before the actual KO hit. It's also good against tall characters out of shield, as a counter to a shielded move. Super armor protects you from jabs or any of that, and tall characters will get hit by the entirety of the attack most of the time. Be sure to only use it this way when the opponent is at higher %s, otherwise you put yourself in a bad spot.

Nair is a good attack, and a lot of people dismiss it because of the low knockback and long lag time at the end. Using it to retreat while autocancelling it, followed by jabs, is good grab bait. You can also use dtilt upon landing. It's often a safer move to jump off the stage with than fair, since the hitbox is so much larger. Also, since the knockback is decent at best, you can often use your momentum to hit with it twice off the stage, resulting sometimes in gimpy KOs.