Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Charizard92]

use rock smash more mkay? :]

Just be careful that you aren't spamming Rock Smash, it is NOT a spam move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just be careful that you aren't spamming Rock Smash, it is NOT a spam move.

Sure it is. More than most moves in this game.

 

[Steeler]

spam it when you are about to get hit by something so they hit the rock too :D

 

[Charizard92]

Shall I go through the lengthy explanation again...

It has short range, executes slowly, predictable, leaves you open for a few frames and Hard to link into something Else. Charizard's throws on the other hand, is spam worthy.

 

[Toby.]

I believe charizard92.

His avatar is a Charizard after all.

The spam worthiness of rock smash largely depends on who you are up against. Against people with long disjoints like marth or MK, its better kept as a retreating move or one done to pseudo counter their aerials.

against other characters we can rock smash aaaallll daaay.

 

[Magik0722]

the only time i spam rock smash 100% is against luigi, because even if he shields it, he gets pushed too far to punish it

 

[T-block]

rocksmash. *****. sheik.

seriously.. i don't know if my friend was doing his f-tilt lock wrong (lol) but every time he tried to f-tilt me i rock smash'd, he ate the shards while the f-tilt hits me and then rock smash again. yeah... rock smash -> rock smash combo is very real on sheik.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Rock Smash comes out on Frame 2. With proper spacing, it's an excellent "panic button"--you can counter lots of options by protecting yourself with the shards. If they have a tendency to use weak moves, such as jabs, you can usually throw it in there and deal significant damage that way.

Would short-hop immediate B-Air cover you better than short-hop immediate F-Air? And how do the tilts work in tandem with said aerials? Proper spacing with these could create for a sexy offensive wall.

Also, Charizard is fast on the ground. Would running after a U-Throw, shielding when they're in range, and U-Tilting be viable on characters that don't fall incredibly fast? It seems like it would end fast enough for you to grab them if they air-dodge through the U-Tilt. This could help with juggling a whole lot.

LET'S GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK

THIS IS DELICIOUS

 

[Steeler]

i think shaya's thread said it comes out on frame 3, but either way, yeah. it's great. interrupts kirby's fthrow -> uair as well.

the thing i don't like about bair is that it will not hit short characters...if you auto cancel it, anyway. otherwise it's pretty rapesauce. i love using it when the opponent is shielding on a platform. the first hit will knock them off the platform and the second will hit them, guaranteed.

reflex are you just asking a ton of questions that you already know the answers to in order to stir up some conversation?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

reflex are you just asking a ton of questions that you already know the answers to in order to stir up some conversation?

No, I just want people to test this and get active. I want new information being spread, curse it.

 

[Zigsta]

As far as tilts after aerials go, I often follow a bair at low percents with an ftilt. It works most of the time--gotta look into it more and see if enemies can get out of it.

 

[T-block]

The u-tilt thing doesn't work very well. The move has around 20 frames of ending lag, so you might be able to get the grab off only if they start the air dodge late. Just tried it on a Lucas, and he was able to n-air after the air dodge

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The u-tilt thing doesn't work very well. The move has around 20 frames of ending lag, so you might be able to get the grab off only if they start the air dodge late. Just tried it on a Lucas, and he was able to n-air after the air dodge

...Don't air-dodges take 49 frames on average?...

 

[Steeler]

39 frames for brawl newcomers

 

[Toby.]

oh metaknight. such a broken air dodge.

 

[T-block]

Hmm...

Utilt:
Hit: 9-12,13-14
End: 33
Hit Lag: 7, 8
Shield Stun: 10, 10
Advantage: -21
Hit Stun: 15, 28!

3-29 / 39 Metaknight
4-29 / 39 Zero Suit Samus
4-29 / 39 Diddy
4-29 / 39 Pit
4-29 / 39 Squirtle
4-29 / 39 Ivysaur
4-29 / 39 Charizard
4-29 / 39 Ike
4-29 / 39 Snake
4-29 / 39 King Dedede
4-29 / 39 Lucario
4-29 / 39 Wario
4-29 / 39 R.O.B
4-29 / 39 Olimar

4-29 / 48 Ice Climbers
4-29 / 48 Ness
4-29 / 48 Sonic
4-29 / 48 Lucas

4-30 / 49 Bowser
4-29 / 49 Mario
4-29 / 49 Donkey Kong
4-29 / 49 Link
4-29 / 49 Samus
4-29 / 49 Kirby
4-29 / 49 Fox
4-29 / 49 Pikachu
4-29 / 49 G&W
4-29 / 49 Luigi
4-29 / 49 Zelda
4-29 / 49 Sheik
4-29 / 49 Falco
4-29 / 49 Yoshi
4-29 / 49 Ganondorf
4-29 / 49 Wolf
4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach


Taking Lucas' data, 19-frame recovery in both cases. How many frames does it take for Zard to get his grab off? It might be possible actually, especially if they air dodge later. I'll try on 49-frame airdodgers later.

 

[Vermy]

Sourspot bair>dair offstage is <3
Also, reverse aerial rush Nair makes it easier to hit with the sweetspot. Nair also works well as a defensive attack when your opponent is getting up off the edge. Its nice and big and can set up into other attacks.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

I haven't read this entire thread, its waaay too long. However, just looking at this page i see a bunch of people talking about throwing with charizard. Am I the only one here who almost never throws with him? If you get a grab just mash pummel. When they break out you have frame advantage, they are in jab range, and two jabs sucks them back towards you, allowing you to regrab again. Unless you are playing against squirtle or zss or someone with a ferociously fast jab, you can keep doing this until they figure out all they can do is shield or perfectly time the tiny window that they can jump out of it. AND once they start shielding the jab, just grab them again! You will rack up way more damage this way than just throwing. The simplicity of this technique and the difficulty for people to get out of it makes me amazed that I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

The only time i throw personally is at high percent and near the end of the stage I might do a dthrow after pummel, as it has the most knockback (I think).

 

[typh]

ghetto fabulous knows what's up

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

What are the exact frames of Charizard's grab realese anyways?

 

[T-block]

Yeah Zard's grab release is hot. Mixing the jabs with d-tilt, f-tilt and Flamethrower is cool too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What are the exact frames of Charizard's grab release anyways?

He gets out on frame 30, like (almost) everyone. The good options are as follows--

Jab. Frame 4 isn't very good for a jab, but it's not terrible, either. The important thing is, it beats any option that isn't another jab or a stupidly-fast move (like Ivysaur's Bullet Seed or Wolf's Down-B). Since some people like to use a tilt or grab, it's a decent option. Also, because it's three hits, it can cancel quickly if they attempt to rolling dodge, and you can still land a hit after an immediate spot-dodge if they do that.

Rock Smash. It is the ultimate spot-dodge punish (damage-wise, at least), so for people that are looking to avoid a hit and retaliate quickly, this does a real number on them. Also, the rock's hitbox is out on Frame 3, so almost all jabs (with the exception of a few characters, like Peach and Squirtle) will break the rock and take heavy damage. If their jab doesn't have much range, they might take the headbutt portion and go flying, too! Also, if they roll towards you, unless they get great distance on their forward roll, the shards could hit them and prevent you from being punished. You can still get grabbed, but many characters don't have the grab range to immediately grab after a grab release, so use that to your advantage.

Grab. It comes out on Frame 6, which is the standard (and also the best, I believe), so it's a decent option when faced with an opponent that likes to shield after a grab-release. Charizard is one of a select few characters that can grab an opponent after a grab-release without having to move, so most people don't see it coming. It would only net you a few extra pummels, but it resets the grab-release, which can be a deadly mindgame when used well. This also helps with diminishing returns, and any extra bit of damage helps. It's easily stopped by a quick jab or tilt, so be careful against more offensive players.

Down-Tilt. It comes out on Frame 8, which is slow compared to your other options, but Charizard leans back during the animation, which can prove to be a solid dodge-and-counter move on anyone who was expecting to have just enough range to punish you. The whole move ends on Frame 27, so even if the opponent dodges the attack, you're only at a disadvantage by a couple of frames at worst, so you won't be punished too badly. This move also has great killing potential especially if they don't see it coming, so that's a thought.

Forward-Smash. It comes out on Frame 22 and the first hitbox stays out until Frame 24, which would normally be considered atrocious as a grab-release option, but when you take into account that it punishes every spot-dodge perfectly (the best ones, like Link/Falco, end on Frame 22, while a majority of the cast end on Frame 25--either way, invulnerability ends on Frame 20 for pretty much everyone) and the fact that it deals obscene damage and knockback, this suddenly becomes much more viable than anyone would've originally assumed. Also, Charizard leans back during the animation, and even more so than with D-Tilt, so if they do a laggy move, you can punish with this. It might cause some whiffed grabs to get punished, and if some character roll behind you, they'll usually get knocked away a bit by the first, less-damaging hit of the Forward-Smash, which helps cover you. Also, one thing I like to do is initial dash backwards and immediately do a Forward-Smash, which creates even greater distance and can be useful, although it is situational.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

all of these seem great, the only thing is, atleast from my experience, no one spot dodges immediately after a grab release. I might be wrong in there, perhaps its just the people i play, but I find jab or regrab to be the only two options i go for

 

[Steeler]

i know some players that do spot dodge, rock smash is really really hot against them.

i'm pretty sure usmash is also an option, i think there's a hitbox that extends in front of charizard at the beginning. it comes out on frame 5 or 6.

in fact

usmash is REALLY GOOD. USE IT MORE EVERYONE.

 

[Sulfur]

USmash is definitely one of my favorite zard moves. It's always great to catch someone who doesn't realize how long it lasts.

 

[T-block]

I overuse u-smash...srsly.

Falco tends to spotdodge a lot out of grab release I find, since his spotdodge is so hax - I usually play it safe and just Flamethrower after. I'm definitely gonna try out f-smash though... never occurred to me.

 

[Sulfur]

I just need to grab release :/

 

[Vermy]

I UNDERUSE usmash. =/
I use dtilt, ftilt and small bursts of flamethrower for spacing a lot though. I love dtilt.

 

[Zigsta]

I don't use upsmash as much as I used to; people SDI it a lot. I've been using dsmash a lot more lately--it comes out pretty fast and is great for punishing rollers.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Man, I found out that you can do some wierd Flamethrower momentum switch kinda of thing in the air.
It helped me escape many juggling situations, although I do have trouble pulling it off constistely.

Its like you going in one direction in the air, then you quickly sway back doing a flamethrower.

 

[Magik0722]

yes its call b reverse, when going in one direction in the air, press b then quickly press the opposite direction on the joystick, you can also do this with the rock smash and the upb (although the upB is kinda useless for this).

 

[MaTA]

yeah usually a grab release to F smash owns people if you dont do it during a match and do it at higher percents and destroys them... running up smashes are great cause usually one wing clips the opponent. yeah flamethrower is awesome for spacing. also running away from a person then jumping and hitting flamethrower then immediately turn the other direction is good because it gives you sorta a little boost jump where they'll run into your flames.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

you know, i hear you all saying you love the upsmash, and i would too, if it were not for the fact that i never seem to get the second hit to connect. Every time I hit with the first hit the opponent flies past it and the second hit misses... Has anyone figured out a solution to this? is there a specific spot where they can't escape the second hit?

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

yeah usually a grab release to F smash owns people if you dont do it during a match and do it at higher percents and destroys them

what...




i just played a kids donkey kong and he could jab me before i could jab him after the grab release, so i honestly can't see grab release to fsmash work. can someone post a video where this has actually worked?

 

[DemonFart]

It's because DK has 20 frames from a grab release. Charizard has 30.

 

[Miles.]

Bowser (10 frames) > DK (20 Frames) > Everyone (30 frames) > Lucas and Ness (40 frames).

 

[T-block]

Ghetto, grab release to f-smash is to punish the spot dodge

 

[MaTA]

yeah thats a easier way of putting it

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

i just didnt know what matabird was saying.

is what pokemonmasterIRL saying correct? Bowser and DK have advantage versus everyone else when they get grab released? and lucas and ness just really suck?

 

[T-block]

I knew about Bowser and Lucas/Ness, but DK is new to me. It's true though