Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

is probably better off in this game unless anyone can identify MUs that are worse than // were in Brawl. [I always had doubts about Marth, but it's not terribly important.] There's also mechanical changes that will likely help him more in the long run (that the Warios are better qualified to explain than I am).

Isn't he considered number 4 in japan?

He's got no glaring weaknesses from my understanding, sure some minor shortcomings (mainly lack of reliable kill options to a degree, since his smashes have considerable startup lag and waft is hard to hit without baiting a hard punish), but he's also got the means to compensate and negate his shortcomings (his ability to escape quickly and weave in and out of battle make him a harder character to punish to any significant degree, so when he misses a kill, he still has the means to avoid taking any considerable damage for it) and his survivability is greater than most top tier characters (better, more reliable recovery than diddy, rosa, sheik, Yoshi, Sonic, Luigi, Ness, Falcon, etc) and has more than enough tools in his arsenal to control the stage better than most other characters.

someone please explain to me why he's not A+ tier?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Isn't he considered number 4 in japan?

He's got no glaring weaknesses from my understanding, sure some minor shortcomings (mainly lack of reliable kill options to a degree, since his smashes have considerable startup lag and waft is hard to hit without baiting a hard punish), but he's also got the means to compensate and negate his shortcomings (his ability to escape quickly and weave in and out of battle make him a harder character to punish to any significant degree, so when he misses a kill, he still has the means to avoid taking any considerable damage for it) and his survivability is greater than most top tier characters (better, more reliable recovery than diddy, rosa, sheik, Yoshi, Sonic, Luigi, Ness, Falcon, etc) and has more than enough tools in his arsenal to control the stage better than most other characters.

someone please explain to me why he's not A+ tier?

Wario doesn't really have trouble killing when he got FThrow, FTilt, DAir and BAir. He also benefits from rage a LOT considering his survivability.

 

[Ikes]

I'm gonna make my own tier list for ****s and giggles just using my judgement of having played since february

pls no hate :^)

shold mention, I made this with customs on in mind to en extent, but since im unfamiliar with about half the rosters' custom moveset, I kinda just placed them on the list with a 1111 assumption and just used my minor knowledge of any of their customs to adjust accordingly

I put Kirby in B+ since he's got weirdly even/good matchups with higher tiers like ZSS and Sheik
Wario is above sonic since he almost hard counters sonic

also, I feel like Olimar and R.O.B are hella slept on.

 

[Kronos2560]

I feel like Megaman is extremely strong in the custom meta, but is very limited in the vanilla meta.

 

[Shaya]

I at the very least feel confident that Mario is one of the best characters in the game. Prior to the patch, Diddy outshone Mario significantly as a jack of all trades/option rich character, but now while Diddy averages slightly better range / diverse projectiles, Mario comes with better frame data, stronger aerial safety and invincible up smash.

For his size and range, he likely has the best mobility specs in the game. He out buttons basically everyone and everything (very good fairs give him some competition). He doesn't have the same "aggressive pressure" or dash ins as Diddy or Luigi, but he can spend a lot of time in the air while being mostly impervious to the cast's anti-airs games.

 

[Djent]

One counterpoint I've heard is that Mario's killing ability (aside from USmash) is mediocre at best. But let's not kid ourselves, when people are mentioning //(w/o HSB) as candidates for top tier, that shouldn't rule him out automatically.

 

[Smog Frog]

does have anything beyond frame data to make it up tho? has even better mobility specs, , needles, and fair. has flip, banana, , and a similarly dumb fair. has quick attack, a small frame, thunderjolt, and a nigh ungimpable recovery. has...usmash? up b? i dont think that makes him top 5. top 10 for sure, but top 5 is a wee bit of a stretch.

 

[Ulevo]

One counterpoint I've heard is that Mario's killing ability (aside from USmash) is mediocre at best. But let's not kid ourselves, when people are mentioning //(w/o HSB) as candidates for top tier, that shouldn't rule him out automatically.

Yes it should, because while those characters do not have automatic hit confirms or combos in to kills, they have the mobility and options to create situations to acquire kills. Mario does not, at least not compared to those three.

People will stop rating Mario so high when they realize Mario loses to reliable disjoints in neutral and struggles to get kills against skilled opponents who do not simply ledge roll in to up smash.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

As bold as that sounds, @ Shaya , I can't help but see where you're coming from.

I always felt Mario was a lot better than (certain) people were giving him credit for.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Weird question, but would people be okay if a preliminary tier list was divided into something like this: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof...b68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari? I was curious on KoF XIII's tier list and if it had any despite being considered a really balanced fighting game since talks about ZeRo and Abadango's tier lists came up and people wondering about characters and stuff. Anyway, yes, there's never perfect balance and yes, there are characters who are underwhelming and characters who are just better, but there aren't overwhelming characters in KoF XIII or in Smash 4. By overwhelming, I'm talking about characters invalidating other characters. It's from an old discussion made years ago, though: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/155954/kof13-tier-list-discussion.

So, it's divided between "has faults" and "well-rounded". So, to give examples, Sheik would be somewhere at the top in the "well-rounded" area. Her damage and kill weaknesses aren't really that big of a deal if she can continually keep pressure and she is a safe character who can deal with any state well if not fantastic. Now, Captain Falcon would in the the top as well, but in the "has faults" area. The Capt. is a strong character, but his major weakness is disadvantage. Then take Fox who would also be there because of his issues with shields or safety and weight. So, they're 2 high tiers who have weaknesses, but that doesn't stop them from being strong characters. Let's go with Ganondorf who would be in the "has faults" area, but somewhere in the mid tier. His major weaknesses are his disadvantage, large build, and mobility. Now, for Kirby, he'd be in the well-rounded area. Sure, the little puff can't really approach, he's light, and there's not much he can do for combos out of throws, but he can handle any situation well, his attacks are strong, and his small size can make hitting him troublesome.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Mario may not have extreme moves like the ones Sheik, Diddy, and Pikachu have, but all around his frame data is just that good.

His mobility just make it more apparent. No one with his frame data and projectile should have air speed the likes of Brawl Wolf or Megaman and above average ground speed, but here we are.

 

[Shaya]

Just Up Air Up Air Up Air Up Air "Tornado" off the top of the screen, [dair] has killed me twice at sub 130% as ZSS in as many days :< ("wtf is this ****?")
Mario only has room to go up though in terms of acquiring kills. Up Smash is pretty stupid in itself and I think it's fair to practically say that's all he needs, it's that overloaded.
His tilts are all very low knockback (+ sour nair) and his jump specs are probably to blame for people's discomfort in hit confirming out of them right now.

Anyway, watching Nairo vs Nakat (Nakat going pikachu)... showing my general argument that match up isn't that bad for her, it just requires a different play style (lots of shielding, very careful jumps to wall/zone/pressure him). Pikachu's poor aerial mobility and lack of ability to escape his disadvantaged state (against ZSS at least) means that any deficit is feasible to bring back, and it's not like Pikachu can approach or easily punish ZSS' spaced tools.
(http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash fyi)

 

[thehard]

Nairo has also had more tournament practice since Nakat's hibernation, but your point stands.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, haven't seen Nakat in tournament for a long time, so fair enough he's rusty. It's still an advantage to Pika, just no where near a blowout, there's no consistent ticket for Pikachu to really capitalize it's just a matter of it being "easy" for ZSS to make mistakes, they still require ZSS to make said mistakes (inb4 "but shaya this applies to every match up"; no it doesn't, only for good characters, like marf in brawl)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Since we're posting lists now, here's my opinion. Its not 100% (my opinion changes slightly like every 3 mins, especially in mid tier), but its roughly this:

TOP TIER
S:
HIGH TIER
A:
B:
MID TIER
C:
D:
LOW TIER
E:
F:

Pls tell me how wrong I am kthx <3

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's borderline top 10 at the moment. There's still a lot of stuff we have to implement in his game, but for now results show he doesn't deserve anything beyond a #10 placement.

I'm glad everyone believes he's awesome, but there's also a lot of mediocre Marios as well. Only Ally, MastaZenyoux and XeroXen shows high placements on a consistent basis, and only Ally is winning majors (though not nationals). Until that changes I can't agree with anyone who places him Top 5 or higher, but I will agree with @ Shaya and say Mario has nowhere to go but up.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario's borderline top 10 at the moment.

>my list has him at #11

:D

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Z'zgashi

D3 is low tier. D:

Smooth Criminal

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nah man, no he's not trust me, he's really solid. Just ask ZeRo, he lost to one in Japan (it WAS a best of one, but still). Sure he's match up dependent, but this entire game is match up dependent.

EDIT: Like, I might have him too high, thats completely true, but hes AT LEAST not bottom 15 imo.

 

[allshort17]

Weird question, but would people be okay if a preliminary tier list was divided into something like this: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof...b68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari? I was curious on KoF XIII's tier list and if it had any despite being considered a really balanced fighting game since talks about ZeRo and Abadango's tier lists came up and people wondering about characters and stuff. Anyway, yes, there's never perfect balance and yes, there are characters who are underwhelming and characters who are just better, but there aren't overwhelming characters in KoF XIII or in Smash 4. By overwhelming, I'm talking about characters invalidating other characters. It's from an old discussion made years ago, though: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/155954/kof13-tier-list-discussion.

So, it's divided between "has faults" and "well-rounded". So, to give examples, Sheik would be somewhere at the top in the "well-rounded" area. Her damage and kill weaknesses aren't really that big of a deal if she can continually keep pressure and she is a safe character who can deal with any state well if not fantastic. Now, Captain Falcon would in the the top as well, but in the "has faults" area. The Capt. is a strong character, but his major weakness is disadvantage. Then take Fox who would also be there because of his issues with shields or safety and weight. So, they're 2 high tiers who have weaknesses, but that doesn't stop them from being strong characters. Let's go with Ganondorf who would be in the "has faults" area, but somewhere in the mid tier. His major weaknesses are his disadvantage, large build, and mobility. Now, for Kirby, he'd be in the well-rounded area. Sure, the little puff can't really approach, he's light, and there's not much he can do for combos out of throws, but he can handle any situation well, his attacks are strong, and his small size can make hitting him troublesome.

I like these tier list because they give more insight into characters. Our tiers lists don't really tell what the different tiers mean, how close characters are, and why they're placed there. The list above is more flexible and provides more info. I've seen other tier lists of the kind replace the x-axis with categories like less difficult to play<->more difficult and polarizing match-ups <->even match-ups. This tier list would fit the community because no-one can agree on placements. Imagine if the x-axis was for vanilla smash and the y-axis was for customs smash.

 

[Antonykun]

Since we're posting lists now, here's my opinion. Its not 100% (my opinion changes slightly like every 3 mins, especially in mid tier), but its roughly this:

TOP TIER
S:
HIGH TIER
A:
B:
MID TIER
C:
D:
LOW TIER
E:
F:

Pls tell me how wrong I am kthx <3

I see a certain Wordfighter on not bottom Tier...
Guess someone's been looking better in the Publics Eye

 

[Project Quarantine]

Mario's borderline top 10 at the moment. There's still a lot of stuff we have to implement in his game, but for now results show he doesn't deserve anything beyond a #10 placement.

I'm glad everyone believes he's awesome, but there's also a lot of mediocre Marios as well. Only Ally, MastaZenyoux and XeroXen shows high placements on a consistent basis, and only Ally is winning majors (though not nationals). Until that changes I can't agree with anyone who places him Top 5 or higher, but I will agree with @ Shaya and say Mario has nowhere to go but up.

I believe it is the other way around (majors are like evo, apex, etc.).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Nah man, no he's not trust me, he's really solid. Just ask ZeRo, he lost to one in Japan (it WAS a best of one, but still).

You mean almost, otherwise he would've been knocked out of that tournament.
Also why greninja villager and olimar above the likes of Wario peach rob Yoshi. WHILE having falcon that low?

 

[Ulevo]

MID TIER
D:

This is cute.

 

[Antonykun]

This is cute.

wow I did not notice MK not being higher than that...

 

[FullMoon]

Since we're posting lists now, here's my opinion. Its not 100% (my opinion changes slightly like every 3 mins, especially in mid tier), but its roughly this:

TOP TIER
S:
HIGH TIER
A:
B:
MID TIER
C:
D:
LOW TIER
E:
F:

Pls tell me how wrong I am kthx <3

You have Greninja on your top 15 so you're cool in my book =V

Though seriously, I think you should place Yoshi, Wario and Peach higher while making Greninja and Villager go down a bit, I can see Greninja as top 20 but top 15 might be stretching it a bit. I also don't think Olimar is that good but that's just me.

Also switch Meta Knight and Mewtwo around

 

[ZombieBran]

None of this balance garbage matters. The game has seen what, 3 balance change patches in less than 6 months?

This is insane.

Don't get attached to how good your char is. In 3 months there is a good chance they will be worse.

Just play the game.

Or main a bottom tier character and rejoice in the belief that it can't possibly get worse.
Jump off a cliff when you lose your pivot grab and it does actually get worse.

F:

Pls tell me how wrong I am kthx <3

Zelda is last.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You mean almost, otherwise he would've been knocked out of that tournament.
Also why greninja villager and olimar above the likes of Wario peach rob Yoshi. WHILE having falcon that low?

Cuz Falcon is overrated as ****, fite me irl

As for Gren/Villager/Oli > Yoshi/Wario/Peach, show me Yoshi/Wario/Peach results. Tbh, I think all 6 of those characters are really close, but Oli and Villager actually have results. Tbh I feel like I might wanna make a tier in between A and B and have Oli through Peach in it, but meh, maybe later. Also, Greninja is SUPER underrated, hes just ridiculously hard to play, one day though, mark my words, someone will master him and show his true potential and he could even go higher.

And as for MK, idunno, I main MK in this game and Ive just been feeling pretty down on him lately, Im looking at it again now and starting to agree he should be higher, Im sure I'll get over it and place him higher in the future. I dont think he's high tier though, too many problems killing and safely harassing and his neutral is garbage in a lot of match ups in a game where good characters in neutral tend to be the good ones.

Zelda is last.

I could see it. Im starting to regret putting her above Doc cuz honestly I think Zelda/Zard/WFT/Ganon are the worst, but the order Im not 100% on, just currently Zelda > Zard > WFT > Ganon is how I feel.

 

[Xuan Wu]

@ Z'zgashi

It is a good list, to be honest. Do you mind elaborating on Link and Ganondorf's placements. I am particularly curious about these two characters since most tier lists and opinions I have seen up to this point have them higher, especially the former.

Have you always considered Link this low, or was the Jab 1 nerf from the latest update responsible?

^-^

 

[TriTails]

I highly recommend you watch the video if you want to discuss his placements, but the tl;dw list of his top tier is
3.

Mr. ConCon made his brain explode.

I mean, seriously guys. THIS guy. ? Top 3?

Somebody. Link me to this ZeRo's amazing tech that can make vs more bearable for the former. And Mega Man is a threat to the current metagame. And also, and maybe . And he also has some more bad MUs (, , . ALL great characters) to collapse his position. Simply having 'results' doesn't really cut it. has pretty good results and that doesn't put him anywhere higher than mid-low tier.

And unless I'm hearing it wrong, he said 'his single weaknesses is his mobility, which isn't really exploitable'

I cringe on the bolded part. It's as clear as the day that his mobility is VERY exploitable. Really strong zoning shuts him down (), and barrage of projectiles gives him trouble (, , , ). Exploiting slow characters isn't simply outspeeding them.

I just don't see it. I have seen Mr. CC loses from a Mega Man, and didn't he also lost to a Pac-Man in Apex? Boss and J. Miller also lost to aMSa.

No disrespect to any of the pro players I wrote. I think they all are very great players. I just hate the fact on how Luigi is considered great on one game's early life, and then just like, drops down a few tiers because of numerous weaknesses people have yet to exploit. History is basically repeating itself here.

 

[Trifroze]

The shield push back on the important moves in neutral is negligible. The moves with notable push back, like back air and forward smash, are not going to be your safe go to tools. You cannot equate their aerial speed because Falcon's are far more useful in more situations. The hitbox on neutral air for Lucario is average at best and down air is a situational move. Neutral air, being his primary go to aerial on the ground, loses to a lot of Falcon's options. The fact that their dash attack speeds are the same is sort of irrelevant when you consider how fast Falcon runs and the enormous hitbox size on dash attack when compared to Lucario's.

Lucario's nair outranges all of Falcon's aerials horizontally, has a sizable disjoint and he also has better aerial mobility allowing him to pull back more after his aerials. Falcon's dash attack also loses to ASC at high percents. Their runs speeds don't matter when talking about punishing whiffed aerials at a certain range with dash attack, if you're at a far enough distance for run speed to have any considerable effect it means you're at least 20 frames away where you won't punish anything with a dash attack (5 for dash startup, 7 for dash attack and about 10 for running to cause any considerable frame difference). You can punish stuff from that far away with a dash grab though and make it count a lot more, but like said this isn't unique to the Lucario MU and he's actually safer than a lot of characters, plus he shouldn't be whiffing aerials at that distance anyway. Falcon jumping at the same distance results in him getting shot by an aura sphere for all it's worth. Lucario has 50:50s of his own with such as whether he releases the aura sphere or shields your approach and whether he lands with an aerial, ASC or a command grab. I wouldn't deny this matchup leans towards Falcon but it isn't terrible for Lucario and his neutral can be good.

 

[FullMoon]

Mr. ConCon made his brain explode.

I mean, seriously guys. THIS guy. ? Top 3?

Somebody. Link me to this ZeRo's amazing tech that can make vs more bearable for the former. And Mega Man is a threat to the current metagame. And also, and maybe . And he also has some more bad MUs (, , . ALL great characters) to collapse his position. Simply having 'results' doesn't really cut it. has pretty good results and that doesn't put him anywhere higher than mid-low tier.

And unless I'm hearing it wrong, he said 'his single weaknesses is his mobility, which isn't really exploitable'

I cringe on the bolded part. It's as clear as the day that his mobility is VERY exploitable. Really strong zoning shuts him down (), and barrage of projectiles gives him trouble (, , , ). Exploiting slow characters isn't simply outspeeding them.

I just don't see it. I have seen Mr. CC loses from a Mega Man, and didn't he also lost to a Pac-Man in Apex? Boss and J. Miller also lost to aMSa.

No disrespect to any of the pro players I wrote. I think they all are very great players. I just hate the fact on how Luigi is considered great on one game's early life, and then just like, drops down a few tiers because of numerous weaknesses people have yet to exploit. History is basically repeating itself here.

Does Luigi really have that many bad MUs? Just from the ones you mentioned there's already 6 or 7 if you count Villager.

It's a bit surprising really.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario beats him by virtue of being able to camp for days and having an easy time edgeguarding. I think as people get better about picking their battles against Luigi (learn the optimal spacing to respond to post-Fireball options), he'll get worse. He's too simple a character, and he has nowhere to go but down as a result.

 

[Pyr]

Eh. I think there is more to Luigi then what many would see at the surface. I think people learning the matchup and people learning how Luigi plays, along with all the little things with him, will balance it out over time.

That, or his generally short range will be his doom... Again.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Does Luigi really have that many bad MUs? Just from the ones you mentioned there's already 6 or 7 if you count Villager.

It's a bit surprising really.

Yes. Like, he DOES do really good against practically every high tier that isnt Sheik/Rosy, but he has a lot of random really bad MUs, mostly against keep away/projectile characters. Its the main reason I can never understand why people put him in top 3. Like, I can get top 5, I dont think he belongs there but whatever, but top 3 I just dont understand.

@ Z'zgashi

It is a good list, to be honest. Do you mind elaborating on Link and Ganondorf's placements. I am particularly curious about these two characters since most tier lists and opinions I have seen up to this point have them higher, especially the former.

Have you always considered Link this low, or was the Jab 1 nerf from the latest update responsible?

^-^

Link I always had around the top of low mid/bottom of the middle of mid (so weird to say this lol), but the jab nerf really hurt him imo. The main thing that made him a mid tier threat was jab confirms into a plethora of follow ups and kill options, but with that gone he just seems lacking to me now. I really debated keeping him in low mid, but I just coudlnt justify it. As for Ganon, hes just too slow, punishable, and unsafe really. Its too hard for him to get hits and its easy for the opponent to control him. Sure, he hits hard, but he just doesnt get to hit in general.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Smash is generally a game that's all about mobility, whether it's making the most of your great mobility or being able to control and curb others' mobility. Luigi can't do either of them very well outside (though as long as people misspace against certain options, Neutral-B/Dash Grab will make it look like he can). He just has too many poor matchups as a result, and they will likely get worse, since he's likely close to "all figured out" already in terms of what he's capable of.

 

[Pyr]

Well, I disagree with the notion of him being figured out to that extent. I can already see tons of optimizations that can be made by even top level Luigis. I don't think he's the Smash4 version of Brawl G&W.

That said, he does have some big flaws that make it difficult for him against characters peppered throughout the roster at all tiers. People considering him within top 10 are silly imo. It's really not terribly hard to keep the green man out long enough to do more damage then what he does when he gets in.

 

[TriTails]

Wario beats him by virtue of being able to camp for days and having an easy time edgeguarding. I think as people get better about picking their battles against Luigi (learn the optimal spacing to respond to post-Fireball options), he'll get worse. He's too simple a character, and he has nowhere to go but down as a result.

Wait. How does Wario camp Luigi?

And also, too simple of a character? Not too sure where you are going with this. Unless you have been playing Luigis that go around fishing for grabs (Which is a death sentence. Mark my words.), Luigi is hard to figure out when you see he shorthops a lot. And he has a lot of chains to boot, even the not so obvious ones (U-air combos to U-tilt, for example).

And yes, Luigi has many bad MUs. It's just people that are hopping to the bandwagon of 'WEEGEE COUNTERS DIDDY' are overrating him unreasonably and making false impressions that he is one of the best characters in the game. Oh yeah? Well, I laugh at you people. If he still has his sucked mobility, range, and traction, no matter how far you buff him under 'reasonable' levels he will NEVER grab the top tier spot, unless the entire roster are trash and joke characters.

I'd gladly trade some of my aerial prowess and falling speed for better mobility, honestly. I'd rather play a character that is balanced and does not have many glaring flaws that are too easy to exploit than a character that is too polarized and sometimes just get randomly shut down by random characters. Luigi is just isn't like this. I don't like it. His character representation is at s***ty level outside of traction and personality.

 

[Antonykun]

Wait. How does Wario camp Luigi?

And also, too simple of a character? Not too sure where you are going with this. Unless you have been playing Luigis that go around fishing for grabs (Which is a death sentence. Mark my words.), Luigi is hard to figure out when you see he shorthops a lot. And he has a lot of chains to boot, even the not so obvious ones (U-air combos to U-tilt, for example).

And yes, Luigi has many bad MUs. It's just people that are hopping to the bandwagon of 'WEEGEE COUNTERS DIDDY' are overrating him unreasonably and making false impressions that he is one of the best characters in the game. Oh yeah? Well, I laugh at you people. If he still has his sucked mobility, range, and traction, no matter how far you buff him under 'reasonable' levels he will NEVER grab the top tier spot, unless the entire roster are trash and joke characters.

I'd gladly trade some of my aerial prowess and falling speed for better mobility, honestly. I'd rather play a character that is balanced and does not have many glaring flaws that are too easy to exploit than a character that is too polarized and sometimes just get randomly shut down by random characters. Luigi is just isn't like this. I don't like it. His character representation is at s***ty level outside of traction and personality.

Wario has some freakishly good aerial mobility and can just take small wins with fair as he stays right off Luigi's effective Zone.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You just jump/roll away a bunch, send a Bike toward him from time to time, and mitigate damage until you have Waft. Wario loses neutral when he's actually trying to hit Luigi, but he only has to knock him offstage once or twice to get a relatively free KO with Waft (or even Forward-B, depending on the stage).

Wario's allowed to airdodge like an idiot and send retreating pokes Luigi's way, because his aim is to prevent any significant contact between the two characters until Waft is around.