Character Competitive Impressions

[ZarroTsu]

I thought about Ness for the whole custom villager thing.

Can PK thunder reach the opposite ledge if you send it under the stage? I imagine it would stage spike and villager could have some trouble pocketing it from the underside. Just a theory.

 

[Dre89]

because ganondorf is combo fodder and wii fit spends 80% of her time off stage being a ***** throwing soccer balls at you in a way that's pretty much uncontestable for some characters

the other 20% of the time she's 420 noscope comboing you for 3,725,983% damage with neutral air

the character is actually quite gross

Edit:

****, I never thought I'd ACTUALLY be complaining about Wii Fit Trainer, but here I am.

To be fair most characters have a bair or a dtilt/dsmash to hit her on the ledge when she's lost her invincibility

 

[KuroganeHammer]

To be fair most characters have a bair or a dtilt/dsmash to hit her on the ledge when she's lost her invincibility

Not really, hitboxes are too small in this game. Most of the time you have to run off and bair, which is still risky.

 

[Dre89]

Not really, hitboxes are too small in this game. Most of the time you have to run off and bair, which is still risky.

Run off bair is pretty safe if you do it just as she regrabs the ledge so she can't act out if it in time

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Run off bair is pretty safe if you do it just as she regrabs the ledge so she can't act out if it in time

That's an EXTREMELY tight window, if she does any option from the ledge she gets invincibility frame 1. I'm not sure how long you get from regrab to being able to do one of these options but it's small anyway.

 

[Dre89]

That's an EXTREMELY tight window, if she does any option from the ledge she gets invincibility frame 1. I'm not sure how long you get from regrab to being able to do one of these options but it's small anyway.

It's honestly pretty easy to do because you can start running off the stage just before she's about to regrab it. It's normally quite telegraphed because you know when she has to regrab. When she gets close enough to the ledge she can't do an aerial or she won't grab it and will have to upb.

So the frame window you have to react and punish the ledge grab is larger than you think, because it's not as if you have to wait until she grabs the ledge before you can commit.

 

[Teshie U]

One thing that I've noticed with wii fit when I'm ledge camping, people who hit me tend to also hit the soccer ball (which hits me and saves me).

In any case, if anyone has a problem with ledge camping in this game, go watch some brawl matches. We had stronger ledge camping than this in low tier events.

 

[Dre89]

One thing that I've noticed with wii fit when I'm ledge camping, people who hit me tend to also hit the soccer ball (which hits me and saves me).

In any case, if anyone has a problem with ledge camping in this game, go watch some brawl matches. We had stronger ledge camping than this in low tier events.

They shouldn't be hitting the ball. They should just powershield the ball then punish your lack on invincibility when you're forced to regrab the ledge.

 

[Shaya]

I remember my matches with waveguide.
It was Marth.
I lost 0-3.
I did about 25-50% more damage than he did every game (as in, like 400% damage to his 300%).
But I wanted to kill wiifit off stage. I wanted to overcome his ledge stalling, it would've been a wiser choice to stay in a safe spot near the ledge for 8 minutes each game. The ability to charge sun salutation off stage safely is the best type of bait (lol).


Other than that only thing annoying is her lagless air dodges/janky spot dodge. Nair nair nair is kinda cheesy, but I don't think will work 5ever, I had no idea what it even was at the time. I studied situations in which you'll get both hits in, and how you want to avoid certain positions so both hits don't get you.

Can't take away the fact that he has an abnormally good reaction speed though, planking with a lot of characters can be good if you're always picking reactive choices. G&W Up-B has invincibility all the way up and he can auto-cancel land on the stage with it into shield with probably minimal amount of vulnerability, all I theoretically need to do is react to you attacking the ledge or going off stage, a non-sweetspot Up-B will beat both/all every time and he has up air/nair too to bait things.

 

[Blobface]

ganondorf is combo fodder

YOU DARE

Anyway, speaking of Ganondorf, I'm thoroughly convinced he benefits the 3rd most of any character in the game from customs, behind only Palutena and Kopter Kong. Wizard's Dropkick is amazing in some of his worst (read: most competitively restrictive) matchups like Rosa and Sheik, Flame Chain is a nice substitute for Choke in matchups where Choke can't be used (like Rosa), Warlock Blade is a usable tool against camping, and DARK FISTS.

Seriously can we talk about Dark Fists for a minute. This move is amazing, like, Kong Cyclone or Super Speed amazing. Let's just list things off here shall we?
Frame 5 super armor says "nope" to edgeguards, then says "DIE" to edgeguards when the Frame 15 hit combos into a move almost as strong as Ganon's Up-Smash
Ridiculous hitbox makes Dedede look thin. There's no outspacing this thing. Also hits people who try to edgeguard onstage
Frame 15 kill move that kills below 80% grounded, and kills at utterly insane %'s if you connect in the air or off a platform.
No drawbacks. It's basically Ol' One Two with no drawbacks. The only thing you lose is shield pressure above you, which U-Smash does way better anyway.
18 characters get thrown up to Battlefields platforms if they're choked below them. Ganon can easily follow their getup (they will miss the tech) and land Dark Fists on a platform to get kills below 60%. I'd also like to note that some of these Characters include ,,, and even . This move makes Ganon a Diddy Destroyer.

 

[Teshie U]

His recovery is greatly helped thats for sure. Dark Fists as a risky combo breaker is nice too.

 

[Antonykun]

YOU DARE

Anyway, speaking of Ganondorf, I'm thoroughly convinced he benefits the 3rd most of any character in the game from customs, behind only Palutena and Kopter Kong. Wizard's Dropkick is amazing in some of his worst (read: most competitively restrictive) matchups like Rosa and Sheik, Flame Chain is a nice substitute for Choke in matchups where Choke can't be used (like Rosa), Warlock Blade is a usable tool against camping, and DARK FISTS.

Seriously can we talk about Dark Fists for a minute. This move is amazing, like, Kong Cyclone or Super Speed amazing. Let's just list things off here shall we?
Frame 5 super armor says "nope" to edgeguards, then says "DIE" to edgeguards when the Frame 15 hit combos into a move almost as strong as Ganon's Up-Smash
Ridiculous hitbox makes Dedede look thin. There's no outspacing this thing. Also hits people who try to edgeguard onstage
Frame 15 kill move that kills below 80% grounded, and kills at utterly insane %'s if you connect in the air or off a platform.
No drawbacks. It's basically Ol' One Two with no drawbacks. The only thing you lose is shield pressure above you, which U-Smash does way better anyway.
18 characters get thrown up to Battlefields platforms if they're choked below them. Ganon can easily follow their getup (they will miss the tech) and land Dark Fists on a platform to get kills below 60%. I'd also like to note that some of these Characters include ,,, and even . This move makes Ganon a Diddy Destroyer.

I was about to like this but you mentioned my mains and my ex msin getting destroyed. ..
ill like anyways

 

[Blobface]

I was about to like this but you mentioned my mains and my ex msin getting destroyed. ..
ill like anyways

Believe me, Ganondorf needs it.

Stupid Slingshots. I swear, Ganon vs Villager as a whole is just a big reference to how Ganondorf can always be defeated easily by the first crappy item you get in each Zelda Game.

 

[Antonykun]

Believe me, Ganondorf needs it.

Stupid Slingshots. I swear, Ganon vs Villager as a whole is just a big reference to how Ganondorf can always be defeated easily by the first crappy item you get in each Zelda Game.

That reminds me of the time I came across a guy who said ganon was his Villager counter...
I bursted into evil laughter.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Ganon can easily follow their getup (they will miss the tech)

Wrong: http://youtu.be/ilfK83OndGY 5:28 Jtails hits tech.

This set also brings up the fact that Ganon's viability is severely crippled because of some harsh matchups around the top tier. I guess if you could perfect the character AND the matchups, a high tournament placement is possible.

~Devil's Advocate

 

[Conda]

We don't need a list to tell us what we currently think, because we already know what we think. Rather, we need a list to tell us current tier placements, which can never be gathered via a 'perception' vote. Tier lists are supposed to be illuminating and teach us something we may not know, by virtue of data and such. They're not supposed to simply show us what people 'feel'. The whole point is to grow away from 'feel' and get closer to 'know'.

Our perception of character viability is brewed by a mix of light statistics and heavy impressions-based opinions. The value of a good quality time-tested tier list is that is contains more 'stats' and valid experience-based theory, and nothing in the way of populist impressions/feelings.
This makes actual tier lists informative, as they give us information we couldn't really gleam on our own. We need to find out what we are right and wrong about, which you can't possibly have in a voted tier list.

For example, if 90% of people think character X is high tier, then a community-voted tier list would show us this. However, if character X is actually much worse viability-wise, then a well-done tier list (built upon scientific knowledge-based ideals) would tell us unabashedly that character X isn't as good as people popularly think. That's kind of the whole point - many things in life are like this. It's why people read stuff that smart and insightful people have written, rather than just stick with the knowledge they've guessed up themselves. Imparting valuable knowledge is important, and knowing how to discover & reveal that kind of knowledge is crucial.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Can someone convince me that air speed is actually important?

 

[Jaxas]

Can someone convince me that air speed is actually important?

Hmm?

Air speed is hugely important, because the higher your air speed the faster your opponent has to react (or, past a certain speed, predict) to your approach. This allows you to bait them (...assuming you have good aerial acceleration and deceleration), or even just be generally safer in your attacks. You can also chase people in the air better, or just make your moves more safe when you cross up an opponent.

Low air speed means you can't get followups as easily as well, because if you can't get to your opponent while they're still in hitstun then you can't combo them for extra damage.

Basically, it's important for the same reason any other mobility is important, with the added bonus of being able to move while putting out hitboxes because you're in the air.

 

[meleebrawler]

Believe me, Ganondorf needs it.

Stupid Slingshots. I swear, Ganon vs Villager as a whole is just a big reference to how Ganondorf can always be defeated easily by the first crappy item you get in each Zelda Game.

In what Zelda game is an empty bottle the first thing you get? (Twilight Princess is close, but beaten by fishing rod).
You couldn't defeat him with a bug-catching net (unless you consider Agahnim Ganon) or a telescope.
But Demise can be distracted by a net.

 

[wedl!!]

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.

Can someone convince me that air speed is actually important?

air speed is important because it gauges your ability to get followups and play safely in air. i don't really understand how you would consider it unimperative.

 

[Shaya]

Was the trick to that question the fact characters have variable initial air velocity and tend to be either acting in a shff type of way in which that variable is more influential than air speed?

Is it also the fact that diddy, pikachu and luigi have subaverage air speed and they dominate with aerials? Fox and Rosalina (IIRC) are also nothing to write home about. Ness is a great example where his jumps give him a semblance of aerial speed he doesn't actually have.

But my girls and their pets have great air speed. As does
I'd say it helps them a lot. In Sheik's case it's technically her only "buff" she got from Brawl (ignoring Bouncing Fish).

In Brawl it was one of the best qualities to have, a game where spaced aerials were mostly the only means of playing safe. This game... really dumbamazingwhatthefudgesakurai moves like Diddy's fair, uair and maybe Pikachu's back air on a really bad day... exist and they beat everything without a care in the world.
Blame your fate for sword characters being average or worse.

 

[Dre89]

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.



air speed is important because it gauges your ability to get followups and play safely in air. i don't really understand how you would consider it unimperative.

Most of Jr.'s customs are too gimmicky and sacrifice BnB, so they're generally inferior. The only possible option is the windcannon over the default, but all the b specials suck anyway. Some of customs, like the sidebs, up2 and downb3 (the big mecha) are gimmicky and may have niches in certain matchups, but in general you sacrifice too much for them to be worth.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.

ZSS has some meh customs. I'm sure there's some use for nB2, but I can't find it. SideB... Well, sideB 3 is a pretty straightforward upgrade, but it's still not good enough to be anything more than a niche punish option. It gives you a free uair string, bair, or upB. Everything else is garbage compared to the default.

 

[Blobface]

Wrong: http://youtu.be/ilfK83OndGY 5:28 Jtails hits tech.

This set also brings up the fact that Ganon's viability is severely crippled because of some harsh matchups around the top tier. I guess if you could perfect the character AND the matchups, a high tournament placement is possible.

~Devil's Advocate

I wish gun blade had landed Flame Choke more often in this set, because then I would've known if Jtails actually etched that on purpose or if he was just reacting to the explosion noise. If it's the latter, Jtails would've missed the tech for a normal Flame Choke. There's no way to prove either. But what I really meant is someone that knows the timing of the tech will miss the tech because it's so much earlier.

And while it's true that Ganon's viability is questionable because of certain match ups, Diddy and Ness aren't the matchups that Ganon really hates. That's not to say they're even, but given how Ganon can turn a match around in 3 seconds, that doesn't even really matter that much.

Now ZSS, Villager, Rosalina, and Sheik. Those are some torturous matchups. They're probably as bad as 3:7 customs off. But that's one if the biggest reasons Ganon benefits so much from customs. His customs help him in these matchups more than any other. Rosalina and Sheik lose their ability to gimp him almost entirely, and Dropick and Flame Chain are great approaches for Rosalina. ZSS's flip kick becomes a huge gamble since Ganon can just smack her out of it with Dark Fists' huge hitbox. Villager also loses gimping and killing options (Dark Fists armors through everything. Including bowling balls), though it's probably not nearly as improved as Rosa or Sheik.

These matchups are brought down from an awful 3:7 to at least a manageable 4:6. They're still not in his favor, but at least they aren't hard counters anymore.

 

[Judo777]

Can someone convince me that air speed is actually important?

Airspeed is the only actual buff Sheik received from Brawl (aside from MAYBE Vanish having a bigger hitbox).

It's also the primary nerf Marth received from Brawl.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Judo777 Sheik also gained a much better air game due to the mechanic changes (more so than most of the cast, tbh) as well as because Sheik's recovery really good with Bouncing Fish.

Seriously, if you play Sheik from Smash 4 to Brawl / Melee, I can guarantee you're going to have a hard time getting used to the greatness that is horizontal recovery that doesn't put you in a helpless state AND can be used with Vanish to recovery from almost everything out there.

 

[Ffamran]

Can someone convince me that air speed is actually important?

Play as Falco, Kirby, and Luigi, then play as Ike?, Yoshi, Mario or even play as Sheik and Diddy and notice how they move in the air. Or go back to Brawl and compare Falco and Wolf. Air speed is an important factor and it's one of the reasons why Ike and Sheik's aerials are good and why Sheik can chain aerials easily. Or look at Little Mac who doesn't have good air speed so he can't drift back to the stage well like Yoshi can who just needs his second jump to recover from practically anything that isn't a spike or a long horizontal gimp, but if he's high enough in the air, then Yoshi can drift back in no time.

Air speed isn't everything, but if it was, then Jump Art Shulk would be a monster. You have to add in their ability to switch directions in the air. Jump Art lets Shulk move through the air quickly, but he can't change directions in the air as easily as Jigglypuff can. Falco's horizontal air speed is bad, but his vertical air speed is amazing because from his first jump, he can make it to where you're at in the air.

 

[Mario766]

If you want to see the difference air speed makes, play Brawl Ike then play Sm4sh Ike.


You'll understand quickly.

 

[Nobie]

People have been talking mainly about the importance of air speed and mobility on offense, but it's perhaps even more crucial on defense. High air speed and mobility can be the difference between escaping a follow-up either by moving just out of range (speed) or from weaving in the direction that your opponent doesn't expect (mobility). As a Mega Man player, his wiggliness in the air is very important for being able to get some breathing room and reset to neutral.

It should be noted that a lot of the perceived higher/top tier have moves that overcome their subpar air speeds (Monkey Flip, Quick Attack, Fox Illusion), and the ones who don't have a very exploitable hole in their defenses. Namely, Luigi is weak to being juggled and has a hard time approaching heavy zoning characters such as Mega Man because his lack of air speed and mobility becomes an issue on both offense and defense.

One thing that might be influencing Man Li Gi's question is that Donkey Kong is top 10 in terms of horizontal air speed but somehow it often feels like it doesn't help. What I've found based on my limited DK usage is that there's something about the character in general that makes him feel cumbersome, and that even though he has such great air speed it doesn't necessarily seem like he does.

 

[PK Gaming]

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.



air speed is important because it gauges your ability to get followups and play safely in air. i don't really understand how you would consider it unimperative.

All of Robin's customs are strictly worse than his/her default kit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.

and 's customs are mostly sidegrades and gimmicks, though Danger Wrap is probably an upgrade. 's Gyro and Up-B customs are generally nice upgrades, with Slip Gyro probably being the best option. gets a reliable Side B with Chain Judge and Short-Order Chef is a more useful projectile. gets a few situational things, like Guard Breaker as an armored recovery option, but nothing that makes him drastically better. 's don't impress me that much. 's are kind of weird and a few might have some use, but I tend to prefer the defaults. The others I don't know anything about.

 

[Judo777]

@ Judo777 Sheik also gained a much better air game due to the mechanic changes (more so than most of the cast, tbh) as well as because Sheik's recovery really good with Bouncing Fish.

Seriously, if you play Sheik from Smash 4 to Brawl / Melee, I can guarantee you're going to have a hard time getting used to the greatness that is horizontal recovery that doesn't put you in a helpless state AND can be used with Vanish to recovery from almost everything out there.

Like I said, literally the only buff she received directly. Game mechanics isn't a character buff. I did forget to mention BF.

And you realize I played Sheik in all of the other versions of smash right? Like she was my main in Brawl, and no i wouldn't have a hard time getting used to her recovery in other games. I already learned how to recover with a bad recovery, just because I don't have to now, doesn't mean I forgot.

 

[Luco]

has 3 good-but-most-likely-situational customs. These are PSI vortex, PK Fire Burst and Lasting Pk Thunder (the latter 2 borrowed from Lucas ).

PSI Vortex is strange, but most likely the best option you'll have in match-ups where regular PSI Magnet has nothing to absorb. We're currently investigating a tech that involves ledge trumping ---> PSI Vortex ---> stage spiking the opponent. Otherwise, the move is quirky, situational but kinda cool.

PK Fire Burst would have been amazing if it actually did what Lucas' did, including the wavebounce and less cooldown lag. Even so, the bolt travels further and it's a safer option to use if the opponent uses a light character that can SDI easily out of PK Fire. It's the only PK fire variant that can kill by pure KB though, but only at high percents in a ledge-guarding situation.

Lasting PK Thunder is where it's at, though, and by far the most usable custom. The entire PK Thunder is transcendent and although we don't do juggles as well, it's incredible in edge-guarding situations. Some crazy things have also been done with it, I've seen @Noa. do 50% damage to a sheik in one go by looping it around twice and hitting himself with it with her trapped inside, although I keep losing that video.

They're mostly situational but I think they're pretty cool.

 

[PUK]

: custom makes him really solid, but nothing change to much his game. No crescent slash or whatever to kill at 60%. Slipping gyro and reflector rotor and rocket burner can bring some nasty kill by set up or gimp though. Definitively better in custom meta.
: custom allows the player to adapt his moveset to his preferences. Nothing seems really outstanding, but a regular robin could maybe find a combo with some of the Side and up special.
And thoron+ is the safest early kill you can have, and give U instant tome. It's seems to be a direct upgrade. Some down B are good options if you don't mind the loss of leech too.

 

[Nu~]

: custom makes him really solid, but nothing change to much his game. No crescent slash or whatever to kill at 60%. Slipping gyro and reflector rotor and rocket burner can bring some nasty kill by set up or gimp though. Definitively better in custom meta.
: custom allows the player to adapt his moveset to his preferences. Nothing seems really outstanding, but a regular robin could maybe find a combo with some of the Side and up special.
And thoron+ is the safest early kill you can have, and give U instant tome. It's seems to be a direct upgrade. Some down B are good options if you don't mind the loss of leech too.

Goetia is the truth. A ranged command grab for 20%? Yes please.

 

[Spinosaurus]

's customs are really more like sidegrades than straight up upgrades. He doesn't have a custom that is straight up better than the defaults, but most of them are good in their own right. It really depends matchups and preferences.

I like Rose Waft a LOT vs Sheik and Pika.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Guys, I know what air speed is and what it does. Many of you failed to actually tell me why it's important (only Shaya, Ffamran, and Nobie truly understood the message, especially Nobie). My question was trick/joke meant to see how people view something they call so important or why people believe X is better than Y. In fact, it's simply a misunderstood stat that gets thrown around until people believe that it's so important or crucial to gameplay. Yes, when recovering, it's sort of important (shout outs to Ganondorf's nerfed air speed. Really needed that nerf Sakurai. Did I mention to you how much I love Sakurai?), but the entire match isn't reliant on you recovering, is it?
I know air speed and the implications of such a stat, but by and large and taking it into a vacuum, it's just not as important as some want people to believe. Look, Brawl Wario had THE STRONGEST air game in any Smash game in history, even though he was 3rd/4th best. Why? His aerial friction, tied with his aerial acceleration made him able to abruptly switch directions and input an attack. Both Mario and Dr. Mario have the same air speed, but everyone can agree the Mario has a better air game simply because he can move through air faster (higher aerial acceleration). If the characters with high air speed had high aerial acceleration and friction, the stat becomes more relevant, but as of now, Wario's heavily nerfed air game, and Megaman's friction is the only air game that truly utilizes the air speed. If air speed is to be utilized as dash speed, it should be able to be used for offensive AND defensive gameplay.

tl;dr: Air speed is a bloated stat that people need to stop saying helps a character's viability. It's there as a guideline.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well since we talking about our mains customs i'll say that HSD buffs MKs neutral game. It doesn't change his playstyle but it forces the whole cast to respect him, what i love about this move is that mid game your opponent forgets about this move because MK has an above average dash attack/grab making easy to catch them off guard.

Its a nice buff to a character who's neutral isn't too outstanding, thankfully most of the cast don't have dominant neutral game more time its lackluster(top tiers and C.Falcon have insane neutral games). Then his MUs become a cake walk unless that character gets a straight up buff all around in customs.

Diddy doesn't wreck as much with nana in hand because drill beats his monkey flip and banana. Sakurai gave MK some love, not as much as Kirby and Palutina however.

Edit: lol @ Luco my b.

 

[Luco]

Well since we talking about our mains customs

can we take a second to talk about customs for these characters? i don't really know how they function with them.



air speed is important because it gauges your ability to get followups and play safely in air. i don't really understand how you would consider it unimperative.

I mean, not against your post or anything, adding to the discussion is totally fine, I just found this funny.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Bowser Jr gains a windbox in Air Cannon, and a meteor smash UpB, and not much more since Bowser Jr's Default are a big part of his bread and butter game.

Default Kart brings him his legendary combo game and the MechaKoopa his trap game and stage control.
It doesn't help that some of the customs are unusable aside from one or two matchups.