Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

Quick Attack is indeed a silly move, but no you can't just camp most characters out with QA lol, what are you talking about @ ChronoPenguin

Most characters actually have mobility and/or range

you can't even time Ganon out with that strategy, you will run into enough d-tilts to lose your stock eventually

Kirby is one of the few with both bad mobility and bad range. The problem isn't Quick Attack, it's Kirby. Pikachu-Kirby would be even if Pikachu had to fight all the time.

A significant amount of practical on-stage movement is horizontal. Pikachu however can cover Vertical and Horizontal distance with Quick attack. Which is particularly relevant in that these options can be less practical in actually keeping up with Pikachu on platform stages which is also typically where you want to deal with zoners and camping. This isn't to just hit tjolt and spam QA, but the assurance that Pikachu has stronger options to camp through QA that like-minded players with other characters don't. It isn't exclusive to kirby.

 

[NairWizard]

Or we could just force people to take Meteor Quick attack custom instead of default.

Hey, if we can ban certain customs, we can ban certain defaults!

flawless argument

A significant amount of practical on-stage movement is horizontal. Pikachu however can cover Vertical and Horizontal distance with Quick attack. Which is particularly relevant in that these options can be less practical in actually keeping up with Pikachu on platform stages which is also typically where you want to deal with zoners and camping.

Platforms introduce a whole new element to it, because Quick Attack canceling is broken.

I mean, I've said before that Pikachu can run the timer better than characters like Villager, but I don't think that running the timer in this game is a particularly effective strategy, unless you are playing against a character with bad mobility and/or bad range.

in terms of stalling (let's not even call it camping at this point):
super effective vs. bad mobility + bad range
somewhat effective vs. bad mobility + good range
not very effective vs. good mobility + bad range
not effective vs. good mobility + good range

 

[deepseadiva]

This is the match that made me think differently about . He has interesting tools versus custom Wii Fit in particular. The more she charges the concentrated version of Sun Salutation, the smaller it becomes and the easier Kirby can duck under it. He can also kirbycide her poor-recovering Jumbo Hoops which is pretty hilarious as you can see:

The new uppercut also puts in more work than expected.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Kirby already has a great MU against WFT as it is... ;_;

@Asdioh

 

[deepseadiva]

Kirby already has a great MU against WFT as it is... ;_;

Who doesn't.

 

[thehard]

Who doesn't.

Uh... Scapefighter. I mean Swordgoat.

 

[Radical Larry]

Who doesn't.

Tiny Whopper.

 

[Mo433]

As a Kirby main, I will say that Kirby is actually really good. I feel like in order for you to thrive with him, you need to be a experienced player, despite a lot of people thinking the opposite. Kirby can combo has great tilts that rack up damage, and powerful Smash Attacks to go with it. And although Kirby may have "slow aerials", they work extremely well for edgeguarding.

As great as those options may be, like others have said Kirby does have many glaring flaws as is. Kirby's biggest downfalls are his specials. If the Kirby player isn't a spammer, you will most likely barely see a player use Kirby's Special Attacks. All of his special moves add a lot of lag afterwards, and are very hard to hit period. Up Special does not snap to the ledge, and Kirby has the risk of being spiked trying to recover back on the stage. Down Special is powerful, but like his other specials, it has tons of lag afterwards, can be punished badly if missed. The same could be said about Kirby's other specials.
However, with customs, a lot of the problem Kirby has with his specials go away.

Honestly, if I had to put place Kirby on the tier list, I would put him on the C+ to the B- range. Without customs, he is in the C+ range because he cant rely on his specials, and needs to make good reads to use them. With customs, his specials are greatly improved, and he has a lot more kill potential making me want to put him in the B- range.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirbys mobility on the ground is below average, but not at the end of the rung. I presumed this was in relation to stages like Battlefield, delfino, even Duck hunt in some areas. given that Kirbys air speed is horrendous and if you force him to include air transitions to his approach it won't work within this context.

Kirby will be fine for the future of the game so long as the current top stays in their positions. A patch might actually work against Kirby if it adds the possibility of other archetypes being prevalent which are more suited to penalizing him for being a Lightweight, low range character without the air speed. It may be inexperience talking since I use Shulk in such situations and don't have the weaknesses but I wouldn't want to use Kirby in a scene full of Ikes. Even if I get in, Ike has Ganon syndrome where I'll suddenly end up dead when I thought I winning, except it's harder to play footsies against Ike when your arms are nubs so I generally would of not have been 'winning' in the first place.

 

[Antonykun]

Uh... Scapefighter. I mean Swordgoat.

Why must Swordgoat be the memeic loser.
He's only a goat!
I am curious about MSF VS WFT tho

 

[Indigo Jeans]

The most irrelevant matchup. Though Id be lying if I said I wasnt interested in it now too.

 

[Antonykun]

The most irrelevant matchup. Though Id be lying if I said I wasnt interested in it now too.

Nah, most irrelevant is MSF vs GW like what are the odds a SF main will even come across a GW main?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nah, most irrelevant is MSF vs GW like what are the odds a SF main will even come across a GW main?

Trela vs gimr?

was it trela who won that tourny?

 

[Antonykun]

Trela vs gimr?

was it trela who won that tourny?

Is @Trela even a Swordfighter main?

 

[ZarroTsu]

So I fought a Marth in friendlies goofing around with customs, and they killed me at ~50% with a non-tippered hit on the last strike of heavy dancing blade.

Why is this move considered bad again...?

 

[Antonykun]

So I fought a Marth in friendlies goofing around with customs, and they killed me at ~50% with a non-tippered hit on the last strike of heavy dancing blade.

Why is this move considered bad again...?

Because someone who is goofing around wont get hit?

 

[HeroMystic]

Is @Trela even a Swordfighter main?

He mains Robin.

 

[webbedspace]

Nah, most irrelevant is MSF vs GW like what are the odds a SF main will even come across a GW main?

Suit Samus and Bowser Jr
Gunner and Zelda
And the dynamic duo, Pacman and Robin.

 

[deepseadiva]

can be so ****ing SCARY. I know at one point in this thread it was highlighted how bad his "out of dash" options were, but JAPAN's Mac does this freaky dash trotting thing which lets him fling out ftilts and fsmash out of nowhere. It's trolly + useful.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Sooooooo
Why is Kirby a bad character again?

He's too easy to camp. His ground and air movement are avg compared to the likes of the Diddy/Sheik/Pikachu/etc. This gives him poor approach options, lacks the movement to really get in against the faster characters and his range being poor doesn't help him. Not to mention: Kirby's best stage in the Japanese tier list is probably Smashville since the moving platform can aid him, but when that stage is banned and all Kirby has left to go to is FD and Battlefield, well, what kind of time do you think Kirby will have. Starter options don't favour him in this sense, a good opponent will ban Smashville and take him to his worse stages.

IMO, this is the reason why I think Little Mac (a character everyone keeps being surprised why he's so high) is better than most in the *** tier list that only allows FD, Battlefield and Smashville: he's got two good stages in BF and FDs. I wish they gave him back his pre 1.0.4 Side-B air distance though, that was unnecessary.
oops, dbl post

can be so ****ing SCARY. I know at one point in this thread it was highlighted how bad his "out of dash" options were, but JAPAN's Mac does this freaky dash trotting thing which lets him fling out ftilts and fsmash out of nowhere. It's trolly + useful.

He's Fox-trot dancing. It's very good with Little Mac, Fox, C. Falcon, and any other character with fast and long dash startups.

JAPAN tried Up-B three times like that in a row... and didn't get punished. Lol

 

[Pazx]

Kirby already has a great MU against WFT as it is... ;_;

Who doesn't.

WFT has a positive matchup against @ Shaya and the entirety of Australia, 90:10 in my humble opinion.

I'm obviously joking but WFT is a seriously underrated character. Better than Kirby. Better than 2 out of 3 Miis. Better than you imagine.

 

[Manta]

So I fought a Marth in friendlies goofing around with customs, and they killed me at ~50% with a non-tippered hit on the last strike of heavy dancing blade.

Why is this move considered bad again...?

Because unless you have an amazing read and/or you opponent is kinda bad the last hit is next to impossible to land. The other three hits make it way to easy for someone to escape from it. I can hardly pull it off on lvl 1 CPUs unless they're a very heavy character or I start the 'combo' almost a quater way across the stage.

 

[Teshie U]

There is really no reason for Heavy Dancing Blade to hit. I think it was one of those customs that was for FFAs. If someone wasn't paying attention to you doing the first 3 hits (which takes like 2 seconds), the 4th hit could do some things.

 

[Browny]

So the community votes tier list project is finished for Version 1.0. It has been over 4 months of continuous voting starting on November 25 and I have ended it today after the wildcard round.

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/

Feel free to praise/hate/regram/instatweet or whatever people do to these things.

If you post it on reddit, get ready for downvotes though. They are a rabid mess of ferals.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So the community votes tier list project is finished for Version 1.0. It has been over 4 months of continuous voting starting on November 25 and I have ended it today after the wildcard round.

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/

Feel free to praise/hate/regram/instatweet or whatever people do to these things.

If you post it on reddit, get ready for downvotes though. They are a rabid mess of ferals.

It actually doesn't look that bad. I feel as though most of it is either accurate or at least as close to accurate as anything I could come up with. However, I think Charizard is a little too low therefore OMG DIS IZ DA WORSS TEER LIST EVAR!!!!

 

[Pazx]

It's pretty bad simply for the fact that there are 9 tiers, the placements themselves aren't exactly spectacular either. I don't think anybody expected anything better though so I guess some people thought it was a fun project? The method used was not ideal either.

 

[ぱみゅ]

They used a pre-made tier list and up/down voted characters.
That's a bad starting point.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

On the topic of Crescent Slash, I'll just copy+paste another one of my posts from the Lucina custom discussion thread

Is Crescent Slash finally getting the recognition it deserves?!

I use 3123. Dashing Assault is a pretty okay way to mix up your approach, but I'll also run Shield Breaker sometimes. There doesnt seem to be a valid reason to run Heavy or Easy over Dancing. Iai is the strongest counter and if you land it its a good way to reset the situation and possibly work it into your favour. Also nice for dealing with offstage edgeguarding. Crescent Slash provides amazing offensive presence, and is sort of like Ganondorf's Wizard Dropkick in that it lets you threaten a huge, unorthodox area you can't otherwise. It combos out of FThrow, aerial grab releases, FAir, and DTilt (depending on their DI though). If you score a grab at the ledge youre pretty much guaranteed the stock on anyone.

Bonus Emblem Lord seal of approval

This ****ing man

THIS MAN IS A ****ING PROPHET!!!!

100 internets to this genuis

Anyway on a more serious note it seems the move has been steadily getting a lot more traction. Lucina especially appreciates a very reliable KO option against characters like Mario and Villager.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The method used is actually what stuff like event hubs or reddits tier list that's copy/pasted when casuals try to say stuff like Yoshi is OP and links those two things.
So it's not entirely ideal simply cause it's been used multiple times already and it gives scrubs an idea (albeit a bad one) to go point too when they wanna "prove" somebody wrong.

 

[Browny]

It's pretty bad simply for the fact that there are 9 tiers, the placements themselves aren't exactly spectacular either. I don't think anybody expected anything better though so I guess some people thought it was a fun project? The method used was not ideal either.

Good. The whole point of it was to be fun. Giving random members the feeling like their votes count and over 4 months, peoples opinions all counted. It was just an all-inclusive tier list to get people talking about it

They used a pre-made tier list and up/down voted characters.
That's a bad starting point.

Incorrect. There was no 'pre-made' tier list, literally every single character started at the same rank (25) and they all diverged away from that point to fill out 1-50.

The method used is actually what stuff like event hubs or reddits tier list that's copy/pasted when casuals try to say stuff like Yoshi is OP and links those two things.
So it's not entirely ideal simply cause it's been used multiple times already and it gives scrubs an idea (albeit a bad one) to go point too when they wanna "prove" somebody wrong.

Dont you dare insinuate that my method is the same as eventhubs or reddit lol. They are literally 1 vote = 1 point = move up

My method forces there to be a majority vote to move a character up after dozens of rounds. There is a HUGE difference. It takes consecutive weeks of unanimous voting to move a character unlike those other lists which bounce around with the new flavour of the week character and characters jumping huge positions weekly.

---

Guys, I dont take offense to people thinking that my community tier list thread is inaccurate. Do you think I agree with half that ****? Why is dark pit so low lmfao. The whole point was everyone can vote and vote every week for 4 months. Its something fun to do, and those are the results.

I REALLY dont like people thinking the method is the same as everywhere else like on eventhubs or the cesspool that is r/smashbros. My thread is WAY differently. youre comparing literally 40+ rounds of voting where every round needs a unanimous vote to move each character merely one spot, to 1 round of voting and tallying up the numbers.

 

[Pazx]

I understand the process was different to a lot of tier lists but to claim that your tier list is in any way better or more accurate than reddit or eventhubs is simply incorrect. Sinister Slush didn't even say the process was similar, he compared the two because they're both wildly inaccurate.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Exactly.
Just inaccuracy is all I'm talking about, I could care less about how browny has been doing his voting tier lists since brawl and now Smash 4 honestly. Cause again, it's for fun and of course inaccurate.

 

[Pyr]

I respect the work you put into it, I really do. But, in the end, it's just another en-masse community-operated tier list. Your only difference is that you had rounds and subsections for votes.

You're right. It was something fun to do. But you're taking a fun idea too seriously and, bluntly, coming off kind of caustically.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest, if he's gonna go out and do that kinda stuff he should expect criticism and either ignore it or not attack others with venom and say how DARE we not agree with his methods yet turn around and say "yeah I agree it's dum lololol"
Why do it in the first place then?

If people wanna vote for tierlists, it's now an age where they can go to twitz bookface or leddit to do that fun stuff. SMASHBOARDS IS SERIOUS BUISNESS

 

[Browny]

me saying dont compare my method to eventhubs is not saying my method is superior.

Its just insulting. You dont put in 4 months of moderating a thread and counting votes for people to say 'its the same as tallying up a couple hundred and votes' which you can literally do in under 10 minutes on reddit.

Im not saying its accurate, im saying dont discount it because eventhubs/smashbros does community tier list projects and theirs are awful. Mine took CONSIDERABLY longer to form it is in no way in the same category as those lists.

 

[warionumbah2]

Community voted lists will never be accurate.

 

[Pyr]

me saying dont compare my method to eventhubs is not saying my method is superior.

Its just insulting. You dont put in 4 months of moderating a thread and counting votes for people to say 'its the same as tallying up a couple hundred and votes' which you can literally do in under 10 minutes on reddit.

Im not saying its accurate, im saying dont discount it because eventhubs/smashbros does community tier list projects and theirs are awful. Mine took CONSIDERABLY longer to form it is in no way in the same category as those lists.

Look. Real talk. It's a community-voted list. It is literally in the same category as the one on eventhubs and Reddit. You need to chill bro. No one is insulting you, either directly or by proxy. It's a tier list to the competitive forums. Everything from the list itself and how it's formed is going to be critiqued and the critique is fair. You should take that critique and run with it.

That said, with lines like "Dont you dare insinuate that my method is the same as eventhubs or reddit lol" and "because eventhubs/smashbros does community tier list projects and theirs are awful. Mine took CONSIDERABLY longer to form," you're definitely not projecting a good attitude.

That said, here is some critique.

As for time spent: It was 4 months. But it was 4 months out of... 6? Whenever it was released. I honestly can't remember. We've already had big shifts. The length of time in and of itself creates accuracy issues. If you're making a tier list, accuracy is your first and foremost concern. What your list makes in time it loses in current trends. This is much more evident the lower you go. It might actually be worth throwing away some of those months of data for the sake of better accuracy.

 

[Browny]

I dont care what attitude I present here, my smashboards title is there for a reason. Im just saying you cant compare my method to event hubs.

Are you guys ready for this? Seriously, prepare yourselves.

---
The SBR 'official' tier lists are generated in the EXACT SAME WAY as eventhubs/reddit tier lists are!
---

You are getting this mixed up, there are two aspects to this

1) Whether the list is community/restricted
2) Whether the list is iterative/tallied

My list is a community iterative list
Eventhubs/reddit is community tallied
SBR list is restricted tallied

My list is just as similar to eventhubs/reddit, as the SBRs is. They only have 1 aspect in common with 1 different.

I honestly dont care if people think my method is inaccurate. I did this thing for brawl for like 1.5 years and a lot of people had issues, I don't care. I DO though care when people criticise mine by saying it is a community tallied because that is just flat out wrong.

---

Seriously you can yell at me all day long and tell me my method sucks, that sonic is too high, community is dumb and all that. I just smile and nod. I just have issues when people completely get it wrong when describing it.

Its like me saying that yoshi is low tier because he has a bad recovery. That is not an opinion, that is just actually flat out wrong.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm pretty sure, while yes they did votes, also did discussions on the characters before moving them around in terms of SBR stuff.
Saying it's "solely" just voting as if it's reddit or event hubs is plain wrong.

 

[TriTails]

So I fought a Marth in friendlies goofing around with customs, and they killed me at ~50% with a non-tippered hit on the last strike of heavy dancing blade.

Why is this move considered bad again...?

> First 3 hits don't link at all
> The move took way too long to change between hits
> Unless your opponent is just sitting there you'll never get hit by the last hit

When I found out the knockback of the first hit I was like 'This move is so OP that they had to make it work like a malfuctioned motorboat'.