Character Competitive Impressions

[ZarroTsu]

can be so ****ing SCARY. I know at one point in this thread it was highlighted how bad his "out of dash" options were, but JAPAN's Mac does this freaky dash trotting thing which lets him fling out ftilts and fsmash out of nowhere. It's trolly + useful.

The thing that stood out the most to me from that video is if shield regen were significantly nerfed, Little Mac would be legitimately scary.

 

[Radical Larry]

So the community votes tier list project is finished for Version 1.0. It has been over 4 months of continuous voting starting on November 25 and I have ended it today after the wildcard round.

http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/

Feel free to praise/hate/regram/instatweet or whatever people do to these things.

If you post it on reddit, get ready for downvotes though. They are a rabid mess of ferals.

Let's all take this with a grain of salt, because even though this is 'close' to accurate, as some may think, it's still far from the truth. I'm telling everyone now, it would not be so bad to hold back on making a tier list for another few months. My proposition is that after at least four to seven more months (which would be 9 months to a year after 3DS release), we make a tier list; and not only that, we make two separate tier lists for both the 3DS and Wii U versions, for they both play and feel aesthetically different, albeit being the same game.

Trust me, it wouldn't hurt now would it?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You're not really wrong that "official SBR tier lists" are not necessarily better. This is in large part why there is no such official SBR tier list for smash 4 (nor is there a BR for 4 in general). For older smash games extremely seasoned experts can give realistic impressions of the relative merits of the good characters versus each other and reach meaningful conclusions when collaborating for a tier list. For Melee and Melee only, such an utterly absurd amount of time has gone into the game it's even realistic to talk about low tiers (the lower half of Brawl tier lists to this day is poorly explored and often unrepresentative of actual character quality, just an inevitable consequence of how not enough time went into the lesser characters to accurately rank them versus each other). For a game as new as 4, honestly, tier listing at this point is basically just posting character lists to have fun; anyone who believes he can, by any means, create a list with any respectable amount of accuracy in this game is at best overly optimistic. For vague accuracy of good characters, it tends to take around 6 months. For real accuracy of good characters, it takes a few years. For real accuracy of good characters and vague accuracy of bad ones, it takes about a decade. I don't know how long it would take for real accuracy of all characters since it has never happened in any game that I know of; probably at least 50 years of constant competitive play would be required which is more than any game will realistically ever get.

For what it's worth, extreme and obvious tier claims are almost always ballpark right. I think we can say, safely, that Diddy Kong and Sheik are in some way good characters. Zelda and Mii Swordfighter are probably not very good. These things will almost definitely continue to prove true for the game's entire lifespan, and the rough ideas of "good versus decent versus bad" are already growing to be understood and are likely mostly right with a few errors (the rub is that you can't know which characters are the ones we're wrong about). If you wanted to know the relative placement versus each other of, say, Wario vs Shulk vs Mega Man though... honestly, the best you can say at this point and be sure that you're right is that no one knows for sure. Since this game is fairly well balanced and relatively few things are just obvious and drastic, you have this situation where we all agree on a few top characters, we all have our own views of several more characters we each individually think are also top (and there's no way to know who is right), we all agree most of the characters are decent with no real collectively certainty of relative merits so on most tier lists the difference between being rank 15 and rank 40 isn't even that meaningful right now which is more about what we don't know than anything, and we all seem to think a few characters are bad but have little agreement over precisely which ones are the real stinkers and how they fare versus each other.

In short, a community voted tier list is probably fun for some people, and I think it's great since tier discussion is about nothing but brainstorming ideas as a group and having a fun time. Meaningful conclusions are just impossible right now and honestly will only begin to become possible right around EVO time (and even then, only really for the high parts of the tier list). I don't think we should be scared or hyper-critical of tier lists existing since they're fun and can be a proxy to communicate other kinds of information, but let's not pretend like any of these lists have any real accuracy since we can be pretty sure they don't.

Man, this makes me want to post a really inaccurate tier list while I'm at it, but I think I'll just get some sleep instead.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I still stand by my statement the Smash 4 BR should've been made either after apex (which didn't happen, which is fine still too early) or after EVO.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I personally don't understand how you could make a tier list for Smash 4. The only stand-outish characters are Diddy and Mii Sword, at opposite ends of the spectrum. Sheik and Zelda are at semi-opposite ends as well, but are still within the scope of the rest of the cast. You can be good with Zelda, and you can be bad with Sheik.

Can you be bad with Diddy? Does Mii Sword have adequate representation to be considered 'the worst'?

Diddy seems to be a tournament switch-to to win cash, and Mii Sword seems to never actually be played. Ironically, the one time[citation needed] Mii Sword has been played in a tournament, he wins it... Only for people to shrug and continue saying Mii Sword is the worst character in the game.

Is there some kind of disconnect? Does a chart that says Diddy is S rank and Mii Sword is E rank, in itself, force opinions on people? If the chart never existed, would we see a more diverse choice in character switch-tos?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I still stand by my statement the Smash 4 BR should've been made either after apex (which didn't happen, which is fine still too early) or after EVO.

Why should there even be a backroom? Minus a tier list no one really listens to basically anything else the backroom did back in Brawl anyways, what good would it do? (I severely doubt there will EVER be a backroom btw.) I've been asked on several ocations to try and make a "Frontroom" of sorts, but I really am not sure what good it would do so I haven't sat down to do it.

 

[Luco]

Why should there even be a backroom? Minus a tier list no one really listens to basically anything else the backroom did back in Brawl anyways, what good would it do? (I severely doubt there will EVER be a backroom btw.) I've been asked on several ocations to try and make a "Frontroom" of sorts, but I really am not sure what good it would do so I haven't sat down to do it.

Hmm, I would have to disagree. As much as people sometimes loathed it, the BBR and to a lesser extent the Unity committee (before they disbanded) had a really big grip on how tournaments ran. If they didn't, there wouldn't have been the insane debate over the MK ban. Additionally, the Tier list and even more influential, the MU chart, were commonly referred to and discussed by the majority of the community. Possibly moreso than Melee (It seemed like everyone and their dog were able to quote that the Ness v Marth MU was a -3 or that the DK v DDD MU was a -4), the stuff the BBR put out was really influential to the meta game, I think.

What I want to do with a "frontroom" is to create some organised body that is able to give weight to and support community projects, as well as formalise the tier list/MU chart-making process in some way (it's my belief that in order to project in any way to the FGC, we need something official, easy-to-understand and informative which reflects our meta game, which tier lists and MU charts tend to fit pretty well) and set dates for those projects that can actually be quantified (so far it's different people saying vague things like "oh there'll probably be a tier list after x amount of time or so, maybe after y amount of time for good measure"). I want the frontroom to more accurately convey what our community thinks and feels and how our meta is evolving. To that end, I feel a frontroom would need a variety of members, from top players to analytical debaters to commentators and people that can spread information quite quickly and/or are representatives of the smash community in general.

In essence, I would want to reform the 'back/front room' idea in general so that it's less of a 'good players exclusively' club and more of a central hub that the community can use to spearhead projects and gain support from, and to make the smash community more unified in general. That's the dream I would have for such a group. ^^

 

[webbedspace]

The backroom should immediately, form, release a customs tier list on the auspicious date of next Wednesday whose top 8 is 1:Brawler, 2: Pikachu, 3:DK, 4:Villager, 5:Rosalina, 6:Shulk, 7:Diddy and 8:WFT, and then immediately disband, their work completed.

 

[Terotrous]

I still stand by my statement the Smash 4 BR should've been made either after apex (which didn't happen, which is fine still too early) or after EVO.

Considering we don't even know whether we're doing customs on or off going forward it still seems a little early for tierlists. I suppose the backroom could make ruleset recommendations but it's not like the Apex staff listens to anyone beyond the voices in their head that tell them that Skyloft is a jank stage.

 

[Paper Maribro]

WFT has a positive matchup against @ Shaya and the entirety of Australia, 90:10 in my humble opinion.

I'm obviously joking but WFT is a seriously underrated character. Better than Kirby. Better than 2 out of 3 Miis. Better than you imagine.

Good old Waveguider. I've only played him online but man he sure shows you how everything you thought about WFT is wrong. Especially that goddamn nair. I know @ KuroganeHammer has plenty to say about WFT nair.

 

[Nobie]

Something I was thinking about recently was stage size differences between 3DS and Wii U and how this potentially has affected tier lists. In the 3DS version, stages such as Battlefield and Final Destination have slightly larger blast zones, and there also aren't stages like Halberd with super skewed dimensions. There's no evidence as to which version took priority when it came to balancing, but I have to wonder, for example, how much Diddy's up air, Lucario's aura, etc. are affected by that subtle difference.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Good old Waveguider. I've only played him online but man he sure shows you how everything you thought about WFT is wrong. Especially that goddamn nair. I know @ KuroganeHammer has plenty to say about WFT nair.

It does too much damage and IT COMBOS INTO ITSELF WTF

NAIR > NAIR > NAIR 60,000% DAMAGE

 

[Paper Maribro]

It does too much damage and IT COMBOS INTO ITSELF WTF

NAIR > NAIR > NAIR 60,000% DAMAGE

I don't get it.

She's supposed to be a fitness guru but all she does is increase the salt in people's diets…

 

[Luco]

I'm still not sure why @Waveguider doesn't try out Ganny in tournament and show everyone why he's so much more than he was in Brawl.

Waveguider is the low tier hero of Australia.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm still not sure why @Waveguider doesn't try out Ganny in tournament and show everyone why he's so much more than he was in Brawl.

Waveguider is the low tier hero of Australia.

because ganondorf is combo fodder and wii fit spends 80% of her time off stage being a ***** throwing soccer balls at you in a way that's pretty much uncontestable for some characters

the other 20% of the time she's 420 noscope comboing you for 3,725,983% damage with neutral air

the character is actually quite gross

Edit:

****, I never thought I'd ACTUALLY be complaining about Wii Fit Trainer, but here I am.

 

[thehard]

3,725,983% damage

I'm not sure this is right. Did you incorporate move-staling into your calculation?

 

[Djent]

I'm beginning to worry about 's long-term viability, even with customs on.

Lightweight is amazing and kept me enthusiastic for awhile, but it's very risky. Taking x1.1 damage actually is a big deal when you're tall and floaty. If people start testing their combo %s to account for the additional hitstun, I bet they'll be able to put some serious hurt on her, even with Warp to escape some juggle scenarios.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm beginning to worry about 's long-term viability, even with customs on.

Lightweight is amazing and kept me enthusiastic for awhile, but it's very risky. Taking x1.1 damage actually is a big deal when you're tall and floaty. If people start testing their combo %s to account for the additional hitstun, I bet they'll be able to put some serious hurt on her, even with Warp to escape some juggle scenarios.

Customs Palutena is a highly mobile glass cannon. Historically, these characters have been among the best in the series (Melee Fox and Sheik are prime examples).

 

[Nabbitnator]

I find it best to just run away after you get the kill with light weight or back away if you cannot.
At least you can reduce the chances of palutena taking 1.1 damage for everything.

 

[GeneralLedge]

TBH if you manage to hit Palu during light weight you've kind of earned that 1.1x damage. The speed difference is too significant to expect on a whim.

On the other hand, if you're Palu using light weight and manage to get hit repeatedly, you should re-examine why/how you're using light weight.

 

[Ffamran]

So, Peach can do this too.

https://twitter.com/kiekie__eikeik/status/580453781533548544

Whats this, looks a little bit like QFR but something added onto it. FF Dair maybe?

Twitter embed below.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

@Dark.Pch do you know what's happening? Phan7om wanted to know.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Looks like something that was in Brawl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHH1gvbp4g#t=13s

Too lazy to find videos on what it actually is (not a peach player) or the term. Jump, cancel the short hop with float, press Down twice to cancel float, and I think just continue doing that.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Ffamran It probably was in Brawl, but you gotta give credit where credit is due.

Peach is REALLY good at holding her dress.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm beginning to worry about 's long-term viability, even with customs on.

Lightweight is amazing and kept me enthusiastic for awhile, but it's very risky. Taking x1.1 damage actually is a big deal when you're tall and floaty. If people start testing their combo %s to account for the additional hitstun, I bet they'll be able to put some serious hurt on her, even with Warp to escape some juggle scenarios.

Lightweight is best used as "activate kill mode" - she gets dthrow into upair with it activated. Otherwise she has Super Speed already, which boosts her mobility like crazy. KO susceptibility is the worst con to it I think. Lightweight seems to make her much harder to combo. I wonder if she even gets Hoo-Ha'd when she's under it?

So, Peach can do this too.

Twitter embed below.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

@Dark.Pch do you know what's happening? Phan7om wanted to know.

That just looks like that random float stuff she could do in Brawl. Unless she's cancelling hitboxes, it's just a quirky thing you can spam to "mindgame" I suppose. Like thats threatening or something

 

[Antonykun]

So, Peach can do this too.

Twitter embed below.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

@Dark.Pch do you know what's happening? Phan7om wanted to know.

They broke her

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Before we continue, does anyone know if Villager's Hindenburgs can be reflected/absorbed?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I personally don't understand how you could make a tier list for Smash 4. The only stand-outish characters are Diddy and Mii Sword, at opposite ends of the spectrum. Sheik and Zelda are at semi-opposite ends as well, but are still within the scope of the rest of the cast. You can be good with Zelda, and you can be bad with Sheik.

Can you be bad with Diddy? Does Mii Sword have adequate representation to be considered 'the worst'?

Diddy seems to be a tournament switch-to to win cash, and Mii Sword seems to never actually be played. Ironically, the one time[citation needed] Mii Sword has been played in a tournament, he wins it... Only for people to shrug and continue saying Mii Sword is the worst character in the game.

Is there some kind of disconnect? Does a chart that says Diddy is S rank and Mii Sword is E rank, in itself, force opinions on people? If the chart never existed, would we see a more diverse choice in character switch-tos?

You need a piece of paper or literature to tell you there is a gap between Diddy and Swordfighter?

Son, are you drunk?

 

[deepseadiva]

Before we continue, does anyone know if Villager's Hindenburgs can be reflected/absorbed?

"Hindenburgs" lmao

Nah, they are not treated as projectiles. So neither.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

"Hindenburgs" lmao

Nah, they are not treated as projectiles. So neither.

G&W can't bucket the explosion even?

 

[Pazx]

Wii Fit Trainer confirmed for BROKEDEN

I'm still not sure why @Waveguider doesn't try out Ganny in tournament and show everyone why he's so much more than he was in Brawl.

Waveguider is the low tier hero of Australia.

I dunno man being undefeated in tournament sets with a character is a pretty good reason to stick with it.

 

[Luco]

Wii Fit Trainer confirmed for BROKEDEN



I dunno man being undefeated in tournament sets with a character is a pretty good reason to stick with it.

I'll have you know I was in the same position and I used Bowser Jr and DHD occasionally too.

#humblebrags

@ Emblem Lord - We certainly don't, but the rest of the FGC may / outsiders who want to know what the meta is like, may. In a slightly less extreme example that isn't necessarily just solved by google searching, the difference between DHD's viability and Bowser Jr's viability, neither of which get freakish representation.

 

[deepseadiva]

G&W can't bucket the explosion even?

I can only pray a G&W player answers this with "yes".

 

[Antonykun]

G&W can't bucket the explosion even?

he can @ Kofu did it to me

 

[GeneralLedge]

You need a piece of paper or literature to tell you there is a gap between Diddy and Swordfighter?

Son, are you drunk?

Yes, that's exactly what I supported in my post. Absolutely not the opposite.

 

[Teshie U]

"Hindenburgs" lmao

Nah, they are not treated as projectiles. So neither.

Being a projectile isn't a requirement for absorption. Especially in Smash 4. GnW/Ness can absorb explosions in general in this game.

If your asking if Ness/GnW can counter/abuse the balloons, I'm pretty sure they can. I vaguely remember testing this, but I can't be sure. Some things that look like they would logically be absorbable (like pacman's on fire hydrant) can't.

People should look into exploding customs tbh. Stuff like greninja's autocounter and this could be used to great effect in teams (or just to completely wreck villager).

 

[Luco]

Oh!

Absorbing the balloons isn't a legitimate strategy to countering them unfortunately, I did some testing with a villager player at a tournament I was in back in early January (@Gords might be able to elaborate on this better). It's to do with how villager controls the balloons and in the end he just has too much control over whether they pop or not so that a careful villager doesn't let them get absorbed really. =P

 

[Kofu]

Oh!

Absorbing the balloons isn't a legitimate strategy to countering them unfortunately, I did some testing with a villager player at a tournament I was in back in early January (@Gords might be able to elaborate on this better). It's to do with how villager controls the balloons and in the end he just has too much control over whether they pop or not so that a careful villager doesn't let them get absorbed really. =P

Yeah, because they don't explode on contact with characters (just hitboxes) it's hard to get a lot out of it. I guess you could stand where the balloon floats through the stage and try to absorb it.

Ness/Game & Watch can also bucket passive Lloid explosions (when the explode on their own if they don't hit anything). This does 12% and fills the bucket two levels.

 

[Luco]

Yeah, because they don't explode on contact with characters (just hitboxes) it's hard to get a lot out of it. I guess you could stand where the balloon floats through the stage and try to absorb it.

Ness/Game & Watch can also bucket passive Lloid explosions (when the explode on their own if they don't hit anything). This does 12% and fills the bucket two levels.

Rightcha, except from my knowledge the balloons don't explode ever if they don't come into contact with said hitboxes, they just 'poof' and go away. Because Magnet/Bucket don't have a hitbox, they can't be absorbed really from a competent villager.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I have no clue why its not copying the quote but...the qfr thing is something peach had in brawl. I think it was better there as she was able to move faster. I think for this game its just a good way to keep her in motion.

 

[PUK]

Standing with bucket force villager to not uses his Up B, so it can put him in a bad situation.
But i want to see Ike killing a Villager with his Neutral B, the slow speed of EBT should let him do this.