Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Goetia is the truth. A ranged command grab for 20%? Yes please.

I'd love Robin's command grabs a whole lot more if they weren't Frame 16 or more.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd love Robin's command grabs a whole lot more if they weren't Frame 16 or more.

Especially when they don't have the range of Flame Choke or anything like that. A move that slow that's restricted to close quarters tends to be tough to use. Distant I might like a little better, but you have to space it just right and it can't cover a variety of spacings. They do have their uses, though. I just feel like I have a much harder time mindgaming the opponent into Nosferatu compared to Flame Choke due to the lack of burst mobility.(The loss of which is a big reason why Flame Wave is not very useful)

 

[Locke 06]

Mega man's customs are very playstyle/MU oriented. Most of the mega man community is in love with danger wrap, as it is a very nice lingering kill move. However, I feel like it hurts his defensive/neutral game too much and prefer crash bomb/Ice Slasher in most matchups. All 3 down-B's are viable/very usable.

Tornado hold is very interesting as a transcendent disjointed move and is gaining momentum as being a very good move after being very unexplored publically until about a month ago. Hyper bomb is likely the next custom to get some research love from the mega man community.

Shadow blade, the custom that this thread finds the most interesting, is one that I'd like to see used against knowledgeable opponents. For those who haven't labbed the move, how good do you think it is?

Spoiler

the move doesn't combo into itself reliably and can be unsafe on hit if you're too close. Would be better if more research was put in for %/character specific ranges for where the shadow blade links, but using it feels like somewhat of a gamble.

Edit:
@ NairWizard has shown me the light. Of all the custom moves, heavy skull bash is probably the one I have the biggest problem with. Too good, pls nerf.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Shadow Blade is exceptionally good at luring grabs (both for and against you). I have no idea how one would use it well on a vertical or diagonal axis, though.

 

[irokex13]

All of Robin's customs are strictly worse than his/her default kit.

Uh, Robin's customs moves actually aren't bad. Speed Thunder and Firewall are extremely useful against rushdown characters, and who does Robin struggle with fighting the most? Rushdown characters. Speed Thunder might do less damage, but now charges extremely quickly AND releases the thunder speeds with enhanced speed AND reach. Firewall is just an immediate "get off me move". Sure you love the combos that arcfire would have gotten you, but I'd rather zone them out that struggle to combo them with arcfire.

Also, I think people are overlooking Pit and Dark Pit's custom moves. Guidance Bow looks like it could have some interesting follow ups, as you can loop the arrow as soon as you shoot it and then follow it like Villager's Lloid rocket. And the Impact Orbitars allow them to further gimp those with recoveries that grant poor horizontal distance.

 

[Luco]

I feel like Goetia would be incredible if it wasn't for the fact it still doesn't fix Robin's dead zone issues. Like if Arcfire were to be a guaranteed wall or line of flames in front of him, then I think goetia would make him as a character.

But Arcfire doesn't cover the dead zone well enough for Goetia to reach its fullest potential, I think.

 

[NairWizard]

Guys, I know what air speed is and what it does. Many of you failed to actually tell me why it's important (only Shaya, Ffamran, and Nobie truly understood the message, especially Nobie). My question was trick/joke meant to see how people view something they call so important or why people believe X is better than Y. In fact, it's simply a misunderstood stat that gets thrown around until people believe that it's so important or crucial to gameplay. Yes, when recovering, it's sort of important (shout outs to Ganondorf's nerfed air speed. Really needed that nerf Sakurai. Did I mention to you how much I love Sakurai?), but the entire match isn't reliant on you recovering, is it?
I know air speed and the implications of such a stat, but by and large and taking it into a vacuum, it's just not as important as some want people to believe. Look, Brawl Wario had THE STRONGEST air game in any Smash game in history, even though he was 3rd/4th best. Why? His aerial friction, tied with his aerial acceleration made him able to abruptly switch directions and input an attack. Both Mario and Dr. Mario have the same air speed, but everyone can agree the Mario has a better air game simply because he can move through air faster (higher aerial acceleration). If the characters with high air speed had high aerial acceleration and friction, the stat becomes more relevant, but as of now, Wario's heavily nerfed air game, and Megaman's friction is the only air game that truly utilizes the air speed. If air speed is to be utilized as dash speed, it should be able to be used for offensive AND defensive gameplay.

tl;dr: Air speed is a bloated stat that people need to stop saying helps a character's viability. It's there as a guideline.

I made a post on this a while ago:

This is very true.

Mobility is more important in this game than any other metric. Second is attack speed (including endlag on attacks), third is size, and fourth is KO power. A character can have garbage damage, light weight, iffy recovery, and mediocre range and still be top tier, or even the top of top tier, with some good mobility parameters, either attack speed or the ability to net KOs (you don't need both), and a decently sized hurtbox (as in, not Bowser-level, but smaller characters still have a general advantage over larger characters, just look at ZSS vs. Pikachu). We have living proof of this in Mario.

When we say "mobility," though, we're actually talking about more than one thing. The reason that mobility is so strong is because it's an umbrella term for several stats:

• horizontal aerial acceleration and speed
• vertical aerial acceleration and speed
• jump height
• initial dash speed
• walk speed
• run speed (least important)

When a character has good stats in the above parameters, he seems to "flow" really well, and high-level players will gravitate to him. With good mobility, you can:

• Get out of bad aerial situations by drifting away. Corollary: if you're not a fast faller, you don't get combo'd as much
• Follow up on your attacks more easily both on the ground and in the air
• Be more unpredictable in general just by moving around; also, "feint" attacks, by moving in and out
• Abuse your opponent's misspacing
• Space yourself in such a way that commitment-based characters with good range are uncomfortable throwing out their attacks
• Take stage control more consistently and easily in neutral

All of these are huge. A character with good mobility can apply his mobility advantage to advantage, disadvantage, and neutral. It's not a strictly one-dimensional advantage like weight. Range is similar in that it applies to all the states, but not as blatantly as mobility (like really, how much does your range matter in disadvantage, for example? you can swat people away, but we all know how good Shulk with his 11-frame n-air is at doing that! he'd prefer to be able to jump/drift away, which he does get to do in Speed/Jump).

Basically, mobility is a bloated stat in general, not just air speed. There are even more components than the ones that I mentioned in the quoted post.

When we talk about airspeed, we're talking about the whole aerial package, minus SH aerials.

Pikachu's airspeed is garbage even though his SH aerials are great. You can tell when you're getting juggled by Megaman up-airs, because Pikachu has a hard time getting out of them without using Skull Bash (also the only matchup, besides maybe against Rosalina, where I wouldn't take Heavy Skull Bash, by the way; it doesn't work through pellets anyway). Quick Attack patches that against most characters, though, since it's hard to juggle a character who lands before you finish your jump. So I agree with you that there are more factors than just "airspeed, the stat."

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speed Thunder greatly addresses Robin's dead zone. More solid footsies, but less reward. Still his neutral is much improved so I think speed thunder is his best custom.

 

[Teshie U]

Speed thunder makes it very easy to lead into projectile follow ups offstage.

Its probably the best one in singles, as hitting your opponent consistently is better than that 1 strong hit that probably wont ever land in an entire set.

 

[PUK]

And just made some test, the loss of thoron as a kill options is balanced by the fact that you will get the tome many times by stock because thunder and elthunder will become mol spammable.
And the tome is an insta kill around 120% and really safe.

 

[Unknownkid]

Sakurai gave MK some love, not as much as Kirby however

What love did Kirby receive? Because I am not feeling it, man,and it hurts. I recall Palutena is Sakurai's new waifu.

 

[Antonykun]

What love did Kirby receive? Because I am not feeling it, man,and it hurts. I recall Palutena is Sakurai's new waifu.

Kirby has some top tier buttons...o a char with bad ground/air mobility and range.

 

[warionumbah2]

What love did Kirby receive? Because I am not feeling it, man,and it hurts. I recall Palutena is Sakurai's new waifu.

Kirby gets sick ass customs. MK only has 1 good custom.

 

[Nobie]

I made a post on this a while ago:



Basically, mobility is a bloated stat in general, not just air speed. There are even more components than the ones that I mentioned in the quoted post.

When we talk about airspeed, we're talking about the whole aerial package, minus SH aerials.

Pikachu's airspeed is garbage even though his SH aerials are great. You can tell when you're getting juggled by Megaman up-airs, because Pikachu has a hard time getting out of them without using Skull Bash (also the only matchup, besides maybe against Rosalina, where I wouldn't take Heavy Skull Bash, by the way; it doesn't work through pellets anyway). Quick Attack patches that against most characters, though, since it's hard to juggle a character who lands before you finish your jump. So I agree with you that there are more factors than just "airspeed, the stat."

This chart from the Air Speed thread shows just how complex air movement is in general. I think most people would assume that there are only a handful of values that determine how a caracter moves in the air, but it's so much more.

If you're wondering why Mega Man is the way he is while in the air, it's because he has the highest horizontal air friction (that's what "F23" is) and is tied for 1st in terms of aerial acceleration and deceleration, while also being in the top 10 in terms of fall speed and in the upper 1/3 of the cast in terms of straight-up air speed.

By the way, ZSS has the highest vertical air friction.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'd much prefer Goetia if it got the same properties as Heavy Skull Bash, with a colossal hit and KB at the cost of startup. Goetia's even a massive dark explosion in Fire Emblem, so I dunno why this one command grab is the only one of its kind to not get a hitbox-variant custom.

Speed Thunder's great. Very great. The quick charge time would be good enough, but Thunder and Elthunder shoot out extremely fast with this custom, and Arcthunder's speed quirk is reversed, with it going full blast and then slowing down, which makes cute mindgames at mid-max range. The KO power may be reduced, but it still nets clean offstage KOs. I recently got an Fthrow -> Speed Arcthunder for a kill on Palutena around 45%. Just when you think the move will never kill, it does. Constant pressure with this custom.

Only use Thunder+ if you're absolutely confident you can get away with it. Using this custom also basically requires you not to run Fire Wall; Robin's midrange zoning is obsolete when running these two customs in conjunction.

I'm indifferent to Fire Wall. Having a panic option is great and all, but Robin doesn't really get much out of it. Plus Diddy can Monkey Flip Kick right through the wall like a champ, so whatever.


tl;dr Speed Thunder is the ubiquitous custom, Thunder+, Fire Wall, and Goetia require highly specialized Robin playstyles, the other customs suck.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby gets sick *** customs. MK only has 1 good custom.

Metaknight got such half-assed customs compared to the rest of the roster, it's kinda sad.

Eh, it should have been expected I guess. Sakurai implemented MK into Smash so poorly it's kinda sad. MK is some legendary swordsman that carries an ultimate-powered sword, yet the sword does like 3% every hit and is the size of a toothpick. He can't even use any of his fancy special attacks, instead swinging his sword around like an idiot. The only move he has that's proper for the character is Dimensional Cape, lol.

 

[Blobface]

It seems to me that all of the best customs are the ones that address weaknesses instead of adding strengths.

 

[wedl!!]

It seems to me that all of the best customs are the ones that address weaknesses instead of adding strengths.

this is true for the most part. ganon/falco/dk get mobility, villager has a tool that allows him to cover ground more effectively, and sheik/pika have kill options.

 

[meleebrawler]

Metaknight got such half-***** customs compared to the rest of the roster, it's kinda sad.

Eh, it should have been expected I guess. Sakurai implemented MK into Smash so poorly it's kinda sad. MK is some legendary swordsman that carries an ultimate-powered sword, yet the sword does like 3% every hit and is the size of a toothpick. He can't even use any of his fancy special attacks, instead swinging his sword around like an idiot. The only move he has that's proper for the character is Dimensional Cape, lol.

Mach Tornado much? And Drill Rush comes from an ability granted by his (Master) sword.
And whether I'm him, his dark counterpart or Galacta Knight, it's not their big flashy special
attacks I'm afraid of, but rather the multitude of standard sword techniques they can use, since
they're fast and REACTIVE, not just pattern-based. A lot of their powers would just be Final Smash material anyway.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mach Tornado much? And Drill Rush comes from an ability granted by his (Master) sword.
And whether I'm him, his dark counterpart or Galacta Knight, it's not their big flashy special
attacks I'm afraid of, but rather the multitude of standard sword techniques they can use, since
they're fast and REACTIVE, not just pattern-based. A lot of their powers would just be Final Smash material anyway.

Mach Tornado is basically taken from Kirby's Tornado ability and given a different name, while Drill Rush is just taken from the Master ability. While Master is using Galaxia, it's technically Kirby's own move as Meta Knight has never been shown to use it outside of Smash (correct me if I'm wrong). It is the Copy Ability, but Kirby's made his own moves throughout the series instead of cloning the enemies moves exactly how they appear. Mach Tornado is shown to be different from the Smash counterpart is every game it makes an appearance in.

Ehh, I'm just nitpicky because Smash MK is to Kirby as Smash Wario is to Wario Land.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Meta Knight does use a Mach Tornado move in Super Star, but in that case, he jumps up, spins into the Tornado, and coasts his way back down until he hits the ground with a large shockwave hitbox. I'd actually prefer that move be in Smash as sort of a brutal land trapping move.

But then, if we were going to take Super Star into account, Meta Knight would have that absurd cyclone attack too. Hey, it would solve his minor KO issues. =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d9PCQ11enI&t=2m34s

 

[dansal]

Creating an interesting and unique playstyle sometimes means that a character doesn't get moves that represent the series they're from.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It seems to me that all of the best customs are the ones that address weaknesses instead of adding strengths.

Generally good characters are those with pronounced strengths and few weaknesses or negligible ones. Customs allow chars to address those flaws. Like Ike with Close Combat. He gets a move thats safe on block as an approach, lets him close in vs projectile users, puts opponents in trap situations and a very solid mid range footsie option. That move alone allows Ike to jump at LEAST one whole tier.

 

[FullMoon]

Shuttle Loop also became canon for the Kirby series since MK can use it in RtD.

MK is just not comparable to Wario in terms of representing the character. His sword is small because MK himself is small and the Galaxia was never shown as being a humongous sword, plus MK is basically sword and wing Kirby mashed together when he's playable so his sword, legendary or not, is nothing special gameplay wise.

 

[Jaxas]

Generally good characters are those with pronounced strengths and few weaknesses or negligible ones. Customs allow chars to address those flaws. Like Ike with Close Combat. He gets a move thats safe on block as an approach, lets him close in vs projectile users, puts opponents in trap situations and a very solid mid range footsie option. That move alone allows Ike to jump at LEAST one whole tier.

Would Marth be the exception that gains more strengths (kills from grabs with Crescent Slash, from what I've heard) as opposed to patching weaknesses?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Would Marth be the exception that gains more strengths (kills from grabs with Crescent Slash, from what I've heard) as opposed to patching weaknesses?

CS does fix one of his main weaknesses.

A footsie character that can force people to block and then...nothing because he doesn't have anything scary coming after that. Block all day vs Marth because he is not scary when he puts you on defense. This means his gameplan is not functional.

Crescent Slash makes his gameplan of bullying people towards the ledge and forcing shields through solid footsies, actually rewarding.

 

[Jaxas]

CS does fix one of his main weaknesses.

A footsie character that can force people to block and then...nothing because he doesn't have anything scary coming after that. Block all day vs Marth because he is not scary when he puts you on defense. This means his gameplan is not functional.

Crescent Slash makes his gameplan of bullying people towards the ledge and forcing shields through solid footsies, actually rewarding.

Alright, I get what you mean.

 

[Anomilus]

Meta Knight does use a Mach Tornado move in Super Star, but in that case, he jumps up, spins into the Tornado, and coasts his way back down until he hits the ground with a large shockwave hitbox. I'd actually prefer that move be in Smash as sort of a brutal land trapping move.

But then, if we were going to take Super Star into account, Meta Knight would have that absurd cyclone attack too. Hey, it would solve his minor KO issues. =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d9PCQ11enI&t=2m34s

The giant cyclone was supposed to be his final smash, not that Galaxia Darkness junk.

Y Sakurai?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Metaknight got such half-***** customs compared to the rest of the roster, it's kinda sad.

Eh, it should have been expected I guess. Sakurai implemented MK into Smash so poorly it's kinda sad. MK is some legendary swordsman that carries an ultimate-powered sword, yet the sword does like 3% every hit and is the size of a toothpick. He can't even use any of his fancy special attacks, instead swinging his sword around like an idiot. The only move he has that's proper for the character is Dimensional Cape, lol.

Actually Sakurai implemented Meta Knight into Smash too well and had to nerf him into the ground to make him fair.

 

[Superbat]

Mega man's customs are very playstyle/MU oriented. Most of the mega man community is in love with danger wrap, as it is a very nice lingering kill move. However, I feel like it hurts his defensive/neutral game too much and prefer crash bomb/Ice Slasher in most matchups. All 3 down-B's are viable/very usable.

Tornado hold is very interesting as a transcendent disjointed move and is gaining momentum as being a very good move after being very unexplored publically until about a month ago. Hyper bomb is likely the next custom to get some research love from the mega man community.

Shadow blade, the custom that this thread finds the most interesting, is one that I'd like to see used against knowledgeable opponents. For those who haven't labbed the move, how good do you think it is?

Spoiler

the move doesn't combo into itself reliably and can be unsafe on hit if you're too close. Would be better if more research was put in for %/character specific ranges for where the shadow blade links, but using it feels like somewhat of a gamble.

Edit:
@ NairWizard has shown me the light. Of all the custom moves, heavy skull bash is probably the one I have the biggest problem with. Too good, pls nerf.

The megaman Shadowblade custom that returns after being hit can be connected to a shroyuken. Someone posted a custom combo video of it a while ago. it was hype af

 

[Nu~]

The megaman Shadowblade custom that returns after being hit can be connected to a shroyuken. Someone posted a custom combo video of it a while ago. it was hype af

The spacing has to be pristine however. I'm not sure if it will work against opponents with matchup experience. It can also be out spaced pretty well by other projectiles.

 

[19_]

all eyes on shockwave tonight This tournament looks STACKED.

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

 

[NairWizard]

LOL Heavy Skull Bash killing Dedede cross-stage on Smashville at 104% POST-hit.

This move disgusts me.

 

[thehard]

LOL Heavy Skull Bash killing Dedede cross-stage on Smashville at 104% POST-hit.

This move disgusts me.

He rolled RIIIIIIIIGHT into that.

 

[David Viran]

LOL Heavy Skull Bash killing Dedede cross-stage on Smashville at 104% POST-hit.

This move disgusts me.

He got a really good charge on it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I feel the need to point out that I just saw Zero kill, guaranteed off a grab, at around 60% with Diddy.

BAN HEAVY SKULL BASH!

 

[NairWizard]

A character like Pikachu shouldn't be killing a heavy character across the stage at those kinds of percents.

It's like randomly giving Pikachu an aerial Bowser f-smash.

I mean, I'll take it, it just makes the character's design really silly. This is coming from a very play-to-win player who plays a lot of Pikachu.

I feel the need to point out that I just saw Zero kill, guaranteed off a grab, at around 60% with Diddy.

BAN HEAVY SKULL BASH!

Diddy's design is obviously bad, though. We already know that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

A character like Pikachu shouldn't be killing a heavy character across the stage at those kinds of percents.

It's like randomly giving Pikachu an aerial Bowser f-smash.

He made a hard read, and was able to charge it for like half a second. This is like complaining about someone landing a turnaround Falcon Punch read.

 

[David Viran]

I feel the need to point out that I just saw Zero kill, guaranteed off a grab, at around 60% with Diddy.

BAN HEAVY SKULL BASH!

I don't know about garanteed exactly because he didn't DI right which was the the opposite the platform was moving. Diddy isn't the fastest in the air.

 

[Locke 06]

He made a hard read, and was able to charge it for like half a second. This is like complaining about someone landing a turnaround Falcon Punch read.

... Really? ... You're really comparing Heavy Skull Bash to Falcon Punch.