Character Competitive Impressions

[Deathcarter]

You can't really rely heavily on what's happening in the tournament scene when analyzing a character considering that character usage in tournaments and popular opinion of the cast in general can hardly be said to reflect character viability. Luigi, Charizard, and Ike were being quickly dismissed as low tier before Boss, Trela, and Ryuga respectively came in and showed what they could do. Yoshi's widely considered top 5-7 but he has middling tournament representation. Little Mac & Bowser were considered high-top tier at first and as a result had more tournament usage early on. Apex is going out of their way to hamstring the Mii Fighters. And characters like Samus, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, and Falco would never get any discussion in this thread on if we had to wait until a pro placed highly with them before we could discuss their viability.

Tournament results are good in regards to seeing theory put into practice but the point of the thread is to discuss the viability and effectiveness of the cast. I see nothing wrong with knowledgeable posters like Shaya wanting to get a head start on everyone else when it comes to looking into a character that's overlooked by the masses like Olimar, whether or not some people on here agree on his viability.

 

[Kofu]

Shaya, may I ask what moved Wario up on your list recently? A month or so when I asked you about him yiu felt he was more or less average.

Toon Link also interests me; I really haven't heard you (or anyone!) talk about him yet there he is on your cusp list. Does it involve customs, or do you simply feel he's a solid character? Personally normal Link feels superior at least without customs. He has all the range and power; Toon Link has mobility and possibly an edge on attack speed but it doesn't feel overwhelming to me.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya, may I ask what moved Wario up on your list recently? A month or so when I asked you about him yiu felt he was more or less average.

Toon Link also interests me; I really haven't heard you (or anyone!) talk about him yet there he is on your cusp list. Does it involve customs, or do you simply feel he's a solid character? Personally normal Link feels superior at least without customs. He has all the range and power; Toon Link has mobility and possibly an edge on attack speed but it doesn't feel overwhelming to me.

I had him high-ish before, just I don't really know how good he is when he cannot air dodge into the ground (I felt trying to ascertain his power level in comparison to Brawl isn't feasible because of this). Wario and Peach were two characters that I felt could be switched out to make a top 15.

Toon Link be throwing out projectiles like nothing else. His hardest match up is probably Captain Falcon. Maybe great, maybe not. Most TL players from Brawl dislike the structural changes so although once a really popular niche character, their mains have fallen into the diaspora of Diddy and Villager, mostly.

I don't really have a point to make about customs anymore, as I cannot really make them through experience or otherwise. All I know is that I'd kill for Falco's custom up-b; gimp master 9000x with that.

 

[Thinkaman]

so I just found out that all Mii's have to be Guest A and 1111 instead of 2222 or 3333.
I cried just a little bit at how badly those poor guys got gimped.

Why just the 1111 Mii when 2222 and 3333 are also accessible?

2222 seems very potent as it has Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump. Neutral B doesn't matter ad they all sorta are.... Meh. You do lose out on the side B, but the Up and Down Bs are great.

Edit: wait is that off now?

Whaaaaa

Can we get @ Jigglymaster in here to clarify the latest?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Tier lists are both results and moveset/match ups for a reason. Results validate the theorycrafting behind the match ups and how good a character's moveset pool really is. I believe Marth in Brawl has been used as an example before: theorycrafting and moveset pool suggested he should be a bit (read: a few spots) lower due to being basically an inferior MK but tournament results kept him where he was. You need both, not one or the other, in a tier list. Or even when just trying to group characters into rough placements outside of the first 4-6 weeks of a game being out.

I don't really follow but shouldn't results be taken with a grain considering how early the game is? Some characters have put up good results which I dont expect to continue or last.

 

[thehard]

Anyone see Bloodcross' Zard beat ADHD's Diddy at Collision? Apparently a Little Mac beat a Sonic too but I was only half-present for that.

I'm starting to think Luigi and Diddy go near-even as well

 

[Makorel]

After watching Dabuz play Rosalina tonight I've decided that I'm still salty about this character(s). I need someone to slap me and tell me that I'm wrong because to me it looks like most characters can't do anything against either Rosalina or Luma without getting punished by the other.

 

[Antonykun]

Can we get @ Jigglymaster in here to clarify the latest?

I am in the Mii Fighter Skype group and Dapuffster (Mr. Mii Brawler himself) post this when chatting with D1 and TO how the Ruleset has not changed yet:

[1/2/2015 1:20:45 PM] {SL} The Bard of Life: he (Dul Legrande- Head TO for Smash 4) said that its too much to put on players to learn the matchup for 9 different sets.

This is post from D1 - http://prntscr.com/5nqubt

"its over guys
[1/2/2015 2:14:56 PM] Dapuffster: "I understand where you are coming from with this. But like I was saying before, its about keeping all characters at an equal advantage by keeping them in their neutral state. By making 2-2-2-2 and 3-3-3-3 legal for apex, this is saying that those moves are not custom moves. But the majority of people see them as such. Then if we do this for Mii's then we have to do this for Palutena. Which then turns on custom fighters. This just causes more problems then solutions. I apologize for this whole situation. But for this 1st year of Smash 4 at Apex, allowing things in this gray area isn't the right call. Apex isn't the place to experiment rules, and this would be an experiment for sure. Again I apologize to you and the other Mii Fighters out there, but this is our final decision on the matter."
[1/2/2015 2:15:01 PM] Dapuffster: the dream is dead, not happening
[1/2/2015 2:15:06 PM] Dapuffster: getting refunds from APEX

It might be not the perfect source information but watch as the ruleset will not change to accommodate the alternative Mii sets.

This is from the Swordfighter thread.

 

[Shaya]

It accidentally stated that 2222 and 3333 sets were going to be available from what I gathered, although there was a 1111 ruling made earlier on?

Not entirely sure of the scenario, but yeah.

 

[Kofu]

I don't really have a point to make about customs anymore, as I cannot really make them through experience or otherwise. All I know is that I'd kill for Falco's custom up-b; gimp master 9000x with that.

The only reason I asked about Toon Link's customs is because I feel they make his projectile game unique between Fire Arrows, the floaty boomerang, and Short-Fuse Bombs. But I'm not a TL player, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

That's the long-distance Fire Bird I assume. Customs Falco seems pretty cool, I just messed around with him today.

 

[Shaya]

Enemy off stage?
Got drill peck ready for an off stage single hit trade?
They die and you up-b back from aura Lucario-level distances?

"I can FLY, after falling... with style"

Toon Link with customs is pretty enjoyable because of how "different" they all interact. But I'd say on normal, the lower recovery on boomerang return (both have this) plus bomb throw OoS reliability, faster arrows than Link and the small character hurtbox places him better than Link does (at least in my mind, at this time).

 

[Chuva]

After watching Dabuz play Rosalina tonight I've decided that I'm still salty about this character(s). I need someone to slap me and tell me that I'm wrong because to me it looks like most characters can't do anything against either Rosalina or Luma without getting punished by the other.

There are many character specific anti-luma techs and I'm sure there will be more to come (specially with customs). Not only that, but being Lumaless is just one of Rosa's weakness, another one being her recovery having no hitbox. Assuming you've watched Dabuz's Rosa vs Anti's Mario tonight, you saw how Mario's Bthrow completely destroys any Luma shenanigans and cape/Fludd can gimp Launch Star in a very depressing manner; and that's just Mario.

She may be regarded as a top tier, but she has her share of unfavorable matchups.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You can't really rely heavily on what's happening in the tournament scene when analyzing a character considering that character usage in tournaments and popular opinion can hardly be said to reflect character viability. Luigi, Charizard, and Ike were being quickly dismissed as low tier before Boss, Trela, and Ryuga respectively came in and showed what they could do. Yoshi's widely considered top 5-7 but he has middling tournament representation. Little Mac & Bowser were considered high-top tier and as a result had more tournament usage early on. Apex is going out of their way to hamstring the Mii Fighters. And characters like Samus, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, and Falco would never get any discussion in this thread on if we had to wait until a pro placed highly with them before we could discuss their viability.

Tournament results are good in regards to seeing theory put into practice but the point of the thread is to discuss the viability and effectiveness of the cast. I see nothing wrong with knowledgeable posters like Shaya wanting to get a head start on everyone else when it comes to looking a character that's overlooked by the masses like Olimar, whether or not some people on here agree on his viability.

Kirby does have some play going for him more so if we include Wifi.

I think Kirby does really well against Diddy, Sheik, Rosa.
If I have to be the odd-man out. It's the guys who kill him at 60% that are a trip and toss him into the "Well I have better frame data, but I die in 3 reads so how practical is my frame data really" and the "Kirby meet Disjointed Swords Twice your width" archetype and I do believe Falco play and MK play is creeping in.


Olimar was overlooked for a reason but multiple said AI is his main problem.
AI is still booty on 3ds and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a caption in whatever placement he does get that says "Warning: Booty in 3ds".


Speaking of Booty, the Mii rulings are ass.


HOWEVER.
Gunner still Viable, can't tell me ****. Charge shot is still workeable so is flame pillar, Lunar Launch isn't a problem, and Gunner isn't loosing out for having shine. Ftilt, U-air, F-smash, U-smash still all kinds of control.

 

[Yonder]

Sooo I recently made an account on Smashladder.com to get some new matches and all and looked at the rankings. The 2nd highest on the whole site is a solo Luigi user. The highest ranked solo user on the site too [#1st uses multiple characters]. And it has a decent amount of people.

I almost feel that even I, a Luigi main, am missing something about Luigi.


Forgot to mention this is for the 3DS version ladder...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is from the Swordfighter thread.

Well isn't that depressing to read. I see a small glimmer of hope in that they specify "this year," which implies they're not ruling them out completely. But still, I can all but guarantee that a lot of TOs will follow the leader and not allow customs because Apex didn't and then we're back at square one where no one wants to be the first person to host a large customs-enabled tournament because what if someone gets salty over them?

 

[KDub]

I think Pikachu has a lot of potential in this game. He has an awesoem recovery thats harder to gimp than most and a good approach with Tjolt and Quick attack

 

[Nairo]

And while Robin had a lot of results, the two US mains I'm aware of (Nairo and Xzax) have dropped them.
Nairo for more Pit focus + ZSS in the last 2 weeks, and Xzax is now on Diddy.

We're lucky to have had some characters get a lot of 'screen time' early to give a solid idea of where they actually are at. Robin is obviously a good character with great numbers on their tools, but has pretty solid deficiencies that people are becoming aware of. The Diddy/Sheik match ups are extremely debilitating to their viability, where otherwise they're fine against a lot of good characters still.

"Good" Results -> Bubble Pops have existed for a lot of characters thus far already (IMO):


Bowser - thanks to 3DS stuff and early hype
Duck Hunt - took a while for people to learn his new tools/abuse his struggle to kill. Was really popular in the first weeks.
Greninja - "balanced"
Little Mac - "balanced" + "loses to half the cast but beats the other half =/= top tier"
Lucario - "balanced"
Pacman - "balanced"
Rob - Still showing promise but nothing exceptional, Vinnie has moved on from him and Chibo is still showing the character is good, but seems clear to me he isn't a top tier.
Robin - A lot of fun, a huge character following, one of the best smash players in the world repping them, but results have started to dry and the mains have moved on.
Rosalina - "balanced" but still quite good.

I'd say initial hype for the likes of:


have mostly evaporated too. Peach and Jiggs both still have backing voices of goodness (including from myself), but aren't really showing anything yet; Peach losing staleless fair and other small bugs did hurt her a little.

Don't say any false information about me dropping robin because I didn't use her in streamed matches. Still main her bruh

 

[san.]

Kirby does have some play going for him more so if we include Wifi.

I think Kirby does really well against Diddy, Sheik, Rosa.
If I have to be the odd-man out. It's the guys who kill him at 60% that are a trip and toss him into the "Well I have better frame data, but I die in 3 reads so how practical is my frame data really" and the "Kirby meet Disjointed Swords Twice your width" archetype and I do believe Falco play and MK play is creeping in.


Olimar was overlooked for a reason but multiple said AI is his main problem.
AI is still booty on 3ds and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a caption in whatever placement he does get that says "Warning: Booty in 3ds".


Speaking of Booty, the Mii rulings are ***.


HOWEVER.
Gunner still Viable, can't tell me ****. Charge shot is still workeable so is flame pillar, Lunar Launch isn't a problem, and Gunner isn't loosing out for having shine. Ftilt, U-air, F-smash, U-smash still all kinds of control.

Swordsmen usually have holes with the arc of the swing or after a whiffed attack. Kirby can use this to get closer or even punish. His punishes from my knowledge just aren't hard enough without consistent small reads utilizing his size and average low end-lag.

Never thought Olimar was bad (AI wasn't a good excuse for 3DS, we knew he'd be better on Wii U). Slightly toned down Brawl Olimar in a higher hitstun game and better strategical potential with predictable pikmin ordering.

Kind of agree on Gunner, but 1111 feels like he plays a little similarly to any other character like DHD, while other sets can do whatever the heck he wants. 1111 feels very fair-centric since other combo moves are removed. Flame pillar and lunar launch are alright. Reflector is usually "safe" against most. Utilt is amazing... on a slightly shorter Mii, otherwise there's slightly too much endlag to trap as easily and it's just good/great... Don't like Fsmash much even though the reward is great for its risk since it doesn't do enough damage and is just used to kill. There are many more holes in Gunner's game with 1111, especially with rushdown in-particular. Too close to charge the charged shot, flame pillar can be blocked and punished, and there are a lack of offstage tools (well, probably average now vs really good with other combinations). Default Mii does have a decent jab and can actually jab cancel with some effort, and bair and fair are good spacing tools regardless. Dtilt is good and ftilt is serviceable. Dsmash is great if not for shield, quick, good damage, and very long ranged.

1111 is definitely carried by normals. Reflect projectiles, build up charge shot eventually. Lots of f-air pressure, nair/uair juggles, and some bair. Fair->charged shot, random utilt, or trap into a smash attack for the kill. Decent strategy, but meh. More inline with the average character than a beast without the ability to adjust height, weight, and specials. Still, average/slightly above average isn't that bad I guess.

 

[Shaya]

Don't say any false information about me dropping robin because I didn't use her in streamed matches. Still main her bro

I just haven't seen her brought out by you in a long time against any of the top rated players. BUT that is an issue of match up / stream coverage. Who do you main at this point then (otherwise) and what match ups/players are you bringing out Robin?

Your ZSS is so salivating though

 

[Ffamran]

Does Olimar have any actual tournament results to pack up your idea that he's a lock in for top 15? Because frankly I ain't buying it. I still ain't buying Mario or Luigi top 15 either but that's a whole other story.

I remember a ditto fight between two Brawl Olimars main that happened fairly recently. The issue was that, well, frankly, they were playing like he was in Brawl and they didn't know how a ditto fight MU would work. Was it cool? Yes. Were they capable? Definitely, but they need to figure out even more how Olimar works in SSB4, so that'll take time.

In general, unless they love their character dearly for whatever reason, if the efforts doesn't seem to pay off and the play style just doesn't click, people tend to shy away. It's made much worse when those characters were high tier in a previous game.

Falco, Meta Knight, Olimar, and more are being played like they were in Brawl or Melee sometimes in Falco's situation. It's muscle memory and expectation. Nobody excepts say, Ken from Street Fighter to drastically change in gameplay. I mean, why should they?

The only other aside from I is Xyro, who has stated he hasn't yet gotten a "feel" for the character/this game yet.

I've seen a few good players use her in tourney, but hardly any of them frequent the character boards, much less this site.

Yay, your Cooking Mama avatar is cute.

Ahem... I forgot to mention this, but when we have time and let's assume people are busy, productive, and sitting on their butts doing nothing, we should discuss our characters. We shouldn't be afraid of finding out ways our characters can be gimped or letting our weaknesses and strengthes known to the world. I have this feeling that people don't want others to know that say, Marth is (hypothetically) in a serious disadvantage to Bowser Jr., so they never mention it and we never know.

Personally, I believe losing is a victory on its own since you can learn why you lost and how to win later.

The other thing which I assume is the main cause is not knowing about this thread. Mega Man fans are discussing him, his essential bread and butter approaches, moves, and techniques; and his match-ups, but it's all on the Mega Man section. Nobody on the Zelda, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff sections know and they might even be talking about how to fight Mega Man too.

I stumbled upon this thread and I don't remember where this thread was originally posted, but I know it's interesting. I believe @locuan128 posted on the Falco gameplay thread and some of us helped up with the understanding of a Lucina vs. Falco MU. I ended getting help from the Fox section too while looking for videos of Falco for both the MU discussion and Falco section along with posting a couple in the Fox video thread. What I got were videos from @ MunsterMash fighting an unfortunately not-known Falco player named jj. He was just a random, but good Falco player from who knows where.

We ended up concluding that it was a fairly even MU against each other and my experiences with Fox and seeing those videos makes me believe Fox and Falco have a fairly even MU. Phone's battery is almost out so this ends my long post.

I'll edit in the Olimar ditto fight or post it later in a separate post.

 

[Dabuz]

Olimar is pretty good but I think he has some pretty awful MUs and will end up being used as a pocket character for most people who choose to use him.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I had him high-ish before, just I don't really know how good he is when he cannot air dodge into the ground (I felt trying to ascertain his power level in comparison to Brawl isn't feasible because of this). Wario and Peach were two characters that I felt could be switched out to make a top 15.

Toon Link be throwing out projectiles like nothing else. His hardest match up is probably Captain Falcon. Maybe great, maybe not. Most TL players from Brawl dislike the structural changes so although once a really popular niche character, their mains have fallen into the diaspora of Diddy and Villager, mostly.

I don't really have a point to make about customs anymore, as I cannot really make them through experience or otherwise. All I know is that I'd kill for Falco's custom up-b; gimp master 9000x with that.

Wario doesn't need SH air dodge to be good in this game. His aerials can all he canceled to have minimal landing lag and he can really put up a nice wall of fairs and make it difficult to approach. Bike can be called faster and goes thru more things than in brawl is a great spacing tool and a good gtfo off me move. Waft is so strong KOing opponents at 80% with barely over a minute charged. Ftilt i buffed and a great KO move as we'll. He lives for a long time has great recovery. Bite has more range than before it's really good. Yeah his air speed is nerfed but he's still faster than 90% of the cast in the air and no more chain grabs and grab release BS so he gets buffed from system mechanic changes. Watch Gluttony and Pongos take top 2 at the French major with wario. I'm telling you guys he's top 15 easily top 10 maybe as the game devlopes and he gets more rep. He's incredibly strong.

 

[RWB]

Been using 1111 Mii Brawler a fair bit recently, and he's not outright horrible. Well, he is, but just in comparison to his 2222 brother.

The main issue is kill power. Brawler's best KO attack is Hurricane Kick by far. Fsmash is not a reasonable move to use, despite it's enormous power. Honestly, I do think Brawler 1111 might play best by going for early gimps with his ability to use Fair to carry the opponent towards the edge. He does have a (in my opinion) very effective Meteor Smash in his Dair, and he can do a lot to harass offstage characters. Even if he can't get the gimp this way, I do think fair, nair uair and some clever use of Shot Put will allow Brawler to plie on those % he now sorely needs for his Dsmash and Usmash kills.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just a quick post about Ganon's placements in the tier lists being posted recently. Noticed he was placed near the end in nearly all.

Ganon's best choices for stages are omegas where the stage-to-blastzone distances are suitable enough to make it back after taking a hit off stage, and wide enough to make a significant difference in KO percentages between you and your opponent with Ganon's sheer power, and also close enough for you to recover before your opponent has a chance to capitalize.

Although it is true that many characters can retreat and make it hard for Ganon to read them, the input damage Ganon has this game is the highest of any character and he can never be counted out, especially so with the new rage mechanics.

All in all, if you couple good stage choices, very high input damage with rage, changing from aggressive to passive play, and very early KOs, Ganon is definitely a mid tier character.

I say this with certainty (considering as much as I could) about all the characters I would rank below him so far (in the neutral).

Please feel free to disagree with me:





(Listed in no particular order).

Ganondorf has the hardest time in the game approaching because of his slow running and aerial speeds, big frame and a complete lack of projectiles or disjoints, but he's also the most dangerous character once he gets in due to decent frame data, decent range and godlike damage/KO power.

It depends how you look at it; if you're going to main Ganondorf and only use him, he will have such polarized match-ups that he can't be considered anything but low tier.

Yes, but for those of us maining him with serious dedication, it only gets easier dealing with ranged and projectile based characters. Also consider that this Smash focused a lot on nerfing projectiles in general (less damage, more lag, etc).

For example; Lucario's aura has a ton of lag, so do many of Robin's projectiles. If Ganon players work hard focusing on what he has a hard time against, he can do very well to even the playing fields especially with all that I mentioned in the former part of this post.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I say this with certainty (considering as much as I could) about all the characters I would rank below him so far (in the neutral).

Please feel free to disagree with me:





(Listed in no particular order).

I'm only going to cover the characters I'm reasonably familiar with.
He's worse than Ganon. Both have some pretty significant weaknesses but Doc has less upside.
Probably about as good as Ganon. Both have the tools they need to win but usually have to outread their opponents. It's fair to put Ganon a notch above Zard because he wins head-to-head.
No way he's below Ganon. He's much safer in terms of approaching and has more reliable combos and damage racking. His kill power is still capable even if it's not Ganon tier.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Can we get @ Jigglymaster in here to clarify the latest?

It's true, they reverted the rule, and they didn't warn me about it either after I had already registered for APEX, so Im getting my refund for that now. Kind of a jerk move to do something like that, they should've never said they'd change it until they actually fully decided, wasted a whole week going into hardcore apex training only to get my character banned again. It's a real shame, whatever, they said its final so they don't seem to want to change it back no matter what.

Mii Brawler 2222 is viable, but he's not top tier, there are many flaws to the character like poor vertical recovery (worse vertical than Little mac), poor range, heavily reliance on grabbing and has very few kill options outside of D-throw into Helicopter Kick (which only combo/kills at the edge at 60%). To think this community makes excuses like "at least I know what Diddy does" is such BS. It's clear that nobody ever wants this character to ever be real even though it'd be so fresh to the competitive metagame.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Stopping you right there.
The only thing being discussed was the grab follow ups. I can disregard everything else because I am specifically *not* talking about them.
If I were to be talking about Kirby as a whole and only mentioned his lack of options out of a throw that would be disingenuous of me, but I'm doing no such thing.

The passive-aggression can cease when you get it's about the *specific* and not the whole, which is exactly why externals are disregarded. If you want to have a full Kirby talk again that's fine. If im talking specifically Kirbys options out of a throw however, and U-air isn't a credible follow-up, then I don't want to hear "He has a U-air" when it's a completely moot point.

Stopping you right there.
The only thing being discussed was the grab follow ups. I can disregard everything else because I am specifically *not* talking about them.
If I were to be talking about Kirby as a whole and only mentioned his lack of options out of a throw that would be disingenuous of me, but I'm doing no such thing.

The passive-aggression can cease when you get it's about the *specific* and not the whole, which is exactly why externals are disregarded. If you want to have a full Kirby talk again that's fine. If im talking specifically Kirbys options out of a throw however, and U-air isn't a credible follow-up, then I don't want to hear "He has a U-air" when it's a completely moot point.

I'll admit, you have a fair point when it comes to the grab follow ups. My bad on that. I get what you were saying, I really do, but reprimands such as that are NOT tolerated by me, so I'll kindly request again that you not do that.

However, I will say again that when you speak of range and hurtboxes and a move losing to another, you are implying that the move is going to challenge a move. All of which, are data. When you compare one move to another move that it "loses" too, it builds a perception. In this case, a negative one. Perception is what? An impression. Which I believe is the name of the thread.

So no, I'm not going to to save my "grade school 5 W's" for a "relevant" discussion, when it has relevance in EVERY discussion in this thread for at least players that are open-minded. If you only judge something by only one aspect of it, you're always going to get the same result from how it didn't work the first time. That's all I was trying to say.

tl;dr Frame data will not determine everything

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario doesn't need SH air dodge to be good in this game.

He can still SH air dodge without the landing lag though because of his short hop height. One of the ones I could think of who can in this game.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I just don't get why it has to be 1111. With Miis, you can run any set with customs off, and you have to make a set before using one.

Why can't they just take the most viable set (between 1111, 2222 and 3333) from each if they're worried about having too any MUs (which imo is a horrible excuse. I also saw D1 say on Twitter he wants 1111 to be the only set legal to prevent a slippery slope with. Palutena specifically, but the rest of the cast being denied theirs as well)?

Seriously, its the same amount of work to set up on systems, just a little more from players....

 

[Firefoxx]

Why can't they just take the most viable set (between 1111, 2222 and 3333) from each if they're worried about having too any MUs (which imo is a horrible excuse. I also saw D1 say on Twitter he wants 1111 to be the only set legal to prevent a slippery slope with. Palutena specifically, but the rest of the cast being denied theirs as well)?

Slippery slope arguments are almost universally terrible excuses to deal with relatively simple problems. Mii fighters (and Palutena for that matter) were clearly designed with customs in mind and denying them the use of said customs is just plain lazy.

 

[MunsterMash]

Anyone happen to know bad match ups for Fox? I ask this because, as many of you know, Fox is very different in Smash 4 than he was in Brawl. Yesterday I went to my 1st offline tournament and people of course waited for me to choose my character before they chose theirs. Weirdly, in the 2 sets I played, one chose Sheik (1st set in winners), and the other chose Falcon (1st set in losers). I did lose both sets, 1st one was close as hell and in the second set it was so damn late I didn't even wanna play from how tired I was. Anyway, I don't see how these 2 characters are exactly counters to Fox. My theory would be that out of the characters they used those were the only ones that could keep up with Fox's speed. Either way, I still want to know the bad match ups if any have found them.

 

[Gunla]

Slippery slope arguments are almost universally terrible excuses to deal with relatively simple problems. Mii fighters (and Palutena for that matter) were clearly designed with customs in mind and denying them the use of said customs is just plain lazy.

Honestly, can't agree enough.

1111, 2222, 3333 sets not only may limit the potential of how the character is designed, but there simply may be better or equally as good sets to use. Locking them to the 2-4 or 3-4 sets dampens what customs are about and hurts the ability of some characters outside these custom-geared characters to perform well.

 

[san.]

I have no idea. The only slippery slope I'm afraid of is the trend the ruleset is making and its effects on future tournaments.

Here is a video of some Mii Gunner tech used in a match with specials that aren't all the same number:

 

[Asdioh]

That mobility is really, really, disgusting.
-Kirby main

 

[Antonykun]

I have no idea. The only slippery slope I'm afraid of is the trend the ruleset is making and its effects on future tournaments.

Here is a video of some Mii Gunner tech used in a match with specials that aren't all the same number:

As a Swordfighter main i feel so jelly right now about Gunner's mobility

 

[Iron Kraken]

There are many character specific anti-luma techs and I'm sure there will be more to come (specially with customs). Not only that, but being Lumaless is just one of Rosa's weakness, another one being her recovery having no hitbox. Assuming you've watched Dabuz's Rosa vs Anti's Mario tonight, you saw how Mario's Bthrow completely destroys any Luma shenanigans and cape/Fludd can gimp Launch Star in a very depressing manner; and that's just Mario.

She may be regarded as a top tier, but she has her share of unfavorable matchups.

I was watching that Mario (Anti) vs Rosalina (Dabuz) match up and I was wondering if Anti would know to use the cape on Rosa's recovery and if Dabuz would know that he needs to avoid it.

If Mario capes Rosalina's recovery it's instant death for Rosa... However, if the Rosalina player knows it's coming, it's not all that difficult to avoid. It looked to me like Dabuz wasn't respecting the cape on that recovery, and it cost him that one stock.

Mario's/Luigi's/Wario's backthrows all murder Luma, but the fortunate thing is that because of Luma himself, Rosalina can still be very tricky to grab. First of all because of the space Luma creates, it can be very difficult for an opponent to just rush in and grab Rosalina. And even then, I find myself breaking up a very high % of my opponents grabs with Luma (this is what happens if you input an attack right around the same time your opponent grabs you).

Anyway... I wouldn't consider Mario an unfavorable match up for Rosalina, despite the 2 favorable pieces of technology that Mario has. I say this based on my experience of playing top level Mario players. Even in the match up between Dabuz's Rosalina and Anti's Mario, Dabuz really had control of that match, minus that one cape gimp which caught Dabuz off guard. That's why Anti switched to Diddy right afterwards.

I still think Rosalina's only losing match ups are against Yoshi, Diddy, and Sheik. Even though I've seen just about every single character in this thread get a mention as having "a good match up against Rosalina."

 

[Ffamran]

Just a quick post about Ganon's placements in the tier lists being posted recently. Noticed he was placed near the end in nearly all.

Ganon's best choices for stages are omegas where the stage-to-blastzone distances are suitable enough to make it back after taking a hit off stage, and wide enough to make a significant difference in KO percentages between you and your opponent with Ganon's sheer power, and also close enough for you to recover before your opponent has a chance to capitalize.

Although it is true that many characters can retreat and make it hard for Ganon to read them, the input damage Ganon has this game is the highest of any character and he can never be counted out, especially so with the new rage mechanics.

All in all, if you couple good stage choices, very high input damage with rage, changing from aggressive to passive play, and very early KOs, Ganon is definitely a mid tier character.

I say this with certainty (considering as much as I could) about all the characters I would rank below him so far (in the neutral).

Please feel free to disagree with me:





(Listed in no particular order).



Yes, but for those of us maining him with serious dedication, it only gets easier dealing with ranged and projectile based characters. Also consider that this Smash focused a lot on nerfing projectiles in general (less damage, more lag, etc).

For example; Lucario's aura has a ton of lag, so do many of Robin's projectiles. If Ganon players work hard focusing on what he has a hard time against, he can do very well to even the playing fields especially with all that I mentioned in the former part of this post.

I'm not going to say anything about tiers, but Falco's Reflector pretty much destroys Flame Choke, Wizard's Foot, Volcano Kick, and Dash Attack which leaves Ganondorf with less approaches like Bair, Nair, and Uair. Falco is one of those characters who don't look like they're supposed to be doing that kind of damage and knock back aside from Little Mac, but that's his schtick. If anything, Falco is kind of like a more mobile, shorter, can combo more, and weaker Ganondorf who has a projectile and a reflector.

Off-stage and in the air, it's Falco's game since he can go deep and gimp with Bair - ledge meteor or outright kill - or Fair, combo and kill off of Uair, damage with Nair, or get a good read and Dair. At the same time, Ganondorf's raw power would make it risky if Falco puts himself in a bad position for Ganondorf's Dair, Fair, Bair, Dark Dive, or if both are at their last stock, a Wizard's Foot meteor or Flame Choke slam.

Falco vs. Ganondorf is more or less a "glass cannon" vs. a "tank". Whoever gets good reads, spaces well, and pressures well will win; both are dangerous CQC fighters and both have good air games that are handled differently. Falco combos and gimps while Ganondorf makes each hit count like a rhinoceros charging at you.

 

[Chuva]

I was watching that Mario (Anti) vs Rosalina (Dabuz) match up and I was wondering if Anti would know to use the cape on Rosa's recovery and if Dabuz would know that he needs to avoid it.

If Mario capes Rosalina's recovery it's instant death for Rosa... However, if the Rosalina player knows it's coming, it's not all that difficult to avoid. It looked to me like Dabuz wasn't respecting the cape on that recovery, and it cost him that one stock.

Mario's/Luigi's/Wario's backthrows all murder Luma, but the fortunate thing is that because of Luma himself, Rosalina can still be very tricky to grab. First of all because of the space Luma creates, it can be very difficult for an opponent to just rush in and grab Rosalina. And even then, I find myself breaking up a very high % of my opponents grabs with Luma (this is what happens if you input an attack right around the same time your opponent grabs you).

Anyway... I wouldn't consider Mario an unfavorable match up for Rosalina, despite the 2 favorable pieces of technology that Mario has. I say this based on my experience of playing top level Mario players. Even in the match up between Dabuz's Rosalina and Anti's Mario, Dabuz really had control of that match, minus that one cape gimp which caught Dabuz off guard. That's why Anti switched to Diddy right afterwards.

I still think Rosalina's only losing match ups are against Yoshi, Diddy, and Sheik. Even though I've seen just about every single character in this thread get a mention as having "a good match up against Rosalina."

You can break from a grab with Luma but the time when you need to input something for it to happen is too non-intuitive, so while possible (and happens with me quite often), I wouldn't consider it a reliable tech.

I didn't mean to imply Rosa vs Mario was a bad matchup, I was just stating that she is not the impregnable fortress of hitboxes some people believe and has sizeable weaknesses. Both the Mario and the Luigi MU are 50:50 imo because while both the plumbers have the tools to get rid of Luma and then rushdown Rosa into oblivion, they still struggle to get that going in the first place because Rosalina has a better neutral game with her long-ranged moves and once she puts them in the disadvantage it can be tricky for them to get back onstage. I don't have enough experience vs Wario to talk about the MU.

I'd like to talk more about her other MUs (I find Diddy even) and I think other Rosa mains are sleeping on how dangerous Shulk and Little mac can be for her, but I suppose that should go in the Rosalina's MU thread?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd like to talk more about her other MUs (I find Diddy even) and I think other Rosa mains are sleeping on how dangerous Shulk and Little mac can be for her, but I suppose that should go in the Rosalina's MU thread?

The MU thread is going at a character per week clip so I'm not sure when we'd get to Shulk or Little Mac.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus Jab rant ahead:

Yes, but Samus's Jab combo is only, I repeat ONLY two hits with Jab 1 being 3% and Jab 2 being, I don't remember clearly, 8%. If she's missing the whole combo, that's 50% of the combo and only 3% of the total 11% which is about 25% of the total damage. Also, her Jab combo is so easy to interrupt it's not funny. To make it worse, her victory animation of - boxing terms here - jab, jab, and a straight with her Arm Cannon looks and is probably an even better Jab combo and it's a freaking victory animation! You'd think a famous, dangerous, and seasoned bounty hunter would know how to punch correctly, but nooo...

Falco's Jab combo is easy to get out after he starts spinning, but he can still land or bait with his final swing. So, that's 75% of the combo still usable and 75% is a passing grade compared to Samus's failure of a 50% of which she only has to land 2 hits while Falco has to land 4 total with one being a continuous attack.

Also, doesn't Lucario at least get the benefit of aura later on making up for his Jab combo whiffing? Heck, the knockback of his and probably Robin's makes up for not comboing unlike Samus's. You'd think a freaking metal fist from a superwoman would send you reeling, but nope!

Oh, and at least Meta Knight's Jab combo has a decent hit box if and he hits you, you're going to stay for a while unlike Samus's Jab combo...

You realize that Samus would be extremely scary if her Jab actually linked properly? I've argued this before, but just so it's clear, you have to remember that the current bulk of Samus's threat is Charge Shot. Now imagine Samus connects her Jab on you at around 85%. And suddenly you have to be afraid of getting instakilled if she makes a good read. Keeping in mind she has a 3 frame Jab that has about as much range as Ike's.

I believe that there's actual balance reasons why Samus's Jab is inconsistent. "Fixing" it would be a very ridiculous buff when you consider the rest of her kit.

You can break from a grab with Luma but the time when you need to input something for it to happen is too non-intuitive, so while possible (and happens with me quite often), I wouldn't consider it a reliable tech.

I didn't mean to imply Rosa vs Mario was a bad matchup, I was just stating that she is not the impregnable fortress of hitboxes some people believe and has sizeable weaknesses. Both the Mario and the Luigi MU are 50:50 imo because while both the plumbers have the tools to get rid of Luma and then rushdown Rosa into oblivion, they still struggle to get that going in the first place because Rosalina has a better neutral game with her long-ranged moves and once she puts them in the disadvantage it can be tricky for them to get back onstage. I don't have enough experience vs Wario to talk about the MU.

I'd like to talk more about her other MUs (I find Diddy even) and I think other Rosa mains are sleeping on how dangerous Shulk and Little mac can be for her, but I suppose that should go in the Rosalina's MU thread?

Rosalina I believe beats Mario and Luigi 55/45 because of superior edgeguarding and because her U-smash is really good against them too. They get past Luma easily in neutral, but their weaknesses to juggles and edgeguarding are pretty glaring.