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Character Competitive Impressions

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Your ZSS is so salivating though :p
I don't necessarily agree. Nairo is a great player so he can play however he wants and get by on excellent fundamentals but he makes suboptimal decisions with ZSS pretty often. If he continues to play her he'll probably wring out those small issues. ZSS is weird and a lot of fundamental concepts that seem universal when you play other characters don't really carry over. It's the same few things that pop up every time someone new to ZSS plays her, even in Brawl.

For example, there's almost never a reason to try to follow dsmash knockback after the stun ends for an air follow-up. ZSS' aerials don't kill (even back air doesn't really kill from the center of the stage), up-b is less reliable in the air, and her ground options (even grab->dthrow->uair) do more damage than any air option with more reliability. I don't know why Nairo does that, and tbh I doubt he knows, maybe he's trying to get a slightly earlier kill? But he does it all the time, even at %s where there's no way the follow-up would kill at all.

If you want damage just fsmash, if you want to kill up-b. If you need to save your kill moves for some reason then straight up grab them.

Again, obviously Nairo is a really good player in general but calling his ZSS play anything but "getting there" is being sort of generous.
 

David Viran

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I don't necessarily agree. Nairo is a great player so he can play however he wants and get by on excellent fundamentals but he makes suboptimal decisions with ZSS pretty often. If he continues to play her he'll probably wring out those small issues. ZSS is weird and a lot of fundamental concepts that seem universal when you play other characters don't really carry over. It's the same few things that pop up every time someone new to ZSS plays her, even in Brawl.

For example, there's almost never a reason to try to follow dsmash knockback after the stun ends for an air follow-up. ZSS' aerials don't kill (even back air doesn't really kill from the center of the stage), up-b is less reliable in the air, and her ground options (even grab->dthrow->uair) do more damage than any air option with more reliability. I don't know why Nairo does that, and tbh I doubt he knows, maybe he's trying to get a slightly earlier kill? But he does it all the time, even at %s where there's no way the follow-up would kill at all.

If you want damage just fsmash, if you want to kill up-b. If you need to save your kill moves for some reason then straight up grab them.

Again, obviously Nairo is a really good player in general but calling his ZSS play anything but "getting there" is being sort of generous.
I don't know about those those dsmash follow ups. Being higher in the air would make up special kill earlier actually because the good DI from the center will start making you die off the top and the only way to stop from dieing off the top is to hold down and away which makes you die off the side blast zone even earlier.

Also Bair with rage can kill very early from the center I've seen a match where it killed a Diddy at 89% from almost the center of FD with rage.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I don't necessarily agree. Nairo is a great player so he can play however he wants and get by on excellent fundamentals but he makes suboptimal decisions with ZSS pretty often. If he continues to play her he'll probably wring out those small issues. ZSS is weird and a lot of fundamental concepts that seem universal when you play other characters don't really carry over. It's the same few things that pop up every time someone new to ZSS plays her, even in Brawl.

For example, there's almost never a reason to try to follow dsmash knockback after the stun ends for an air follow-up. ZSS' aerials don't kill (even back air doesn't really kill from the center of the stage), up-b is less reliable in the air, and her ground options (even grab->dthrow->uair) do more damage than any air option with more reliability. I don't know why Nairo does that, and tbh I doubt he knows, maybe he's trying to get a slightly earlier kill? But he does it all the time, even at %s where there's no way the follow-up would kill at all.

If you want damage just fsmash, if you want to kill up-b. If you need to save your kill moves for some reason then straight up grab them.

Again, obviously Nairo is a really good player in general but calling his ZSS play anything but "getting there" is being sort of generous.
That's some tough criticism there. I'm not sure it's really valid.
 

Kofu

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You realize that Samus would be extremely scary if her Jab actually linked properly? I've argued this before, but just so it's clear, you have to remember that the current bulk of Samus's threat is Charge Shot. Now imagine Samus connects her Jab on you at around 85%. And suddenly you have to be afraid of getting instakilled if she makes a good read. Keeping in mind she has a 3 frame Jab that has about as much range as Ike's.

I believe that there's actual balance reasons why Samus's Jab is inconsistent. "Fixing" it would be a very ridiculous buff when you consider the rest of her kit.
If her jab kept its current stats with the one change that Jab 1 had slightly more hitstun it still wouldn't be a threat at that percent since Jab 1's knockback growth is disproportionate. The bigger issue is that it doesn't link at low percents and she can in fact he punished for landing jab. To be fair, she should be punished for landing it as it is because the hit stun is just that bad. If players aren't punishing it it's simply from matchup inexperience (maybe certain characters with slow options can't punish, not sure). Even the til that advises you to run away after landing jab 1 is wrong because you don't have time to run away before being punished. You have a point about the combo leading into Charge Shot but it has to be reasonably charged in the first place (which is hard in certain matchups) and IIRC it doesn't even kill reliably around 100% unless your weight is around Rosalina's. It would certainly make her scarier, though.
 

san.

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Wouldn't Samus' jab be usable depending on the scaling of rage? Gunner's jab for some reason scales with % (and allows for jab cancels), does Samus' scale this way as well?
 

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You guys...do realize Nintendo knows her jab doesn't link right? They WANT it that way. They even say it doesn't link properly in one of the tips.

Don't beat a dead horse over something the dev teams clearly did on purpose.
 

Kofu

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You guys...do realize Nintendo knows her jab doesn't link right? They WANT it that way. They even say it doesn't link properly in one of the tips.

Don't beat a dead horse over something the dev teams clearly did on purpose.
But WHY is it a deliberate choice? A2Z could very well be right that they did it for balance purposes but it's very fixable by either changing the launch angle or increasing the endlag to prevent immediate Charge Shot followups. Practically every character in this game has a jab that has damage-racking purposes except Samus. Hers is just bad. MK's is bad too but it still is more effective than Samus's IMO.
 

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Sakurai has stated many times when designing a character the way they feel is what matters to him. Meaning if you play their game then play this game does that character feel as though they transitioned well. Balance is something that comes later for him and his team.

So the short answer imo would be there is no grand reason other then thats what he felt she should be like.
 

A2ZOMG

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Why jab with Samus when you have ftilt
Her F-tilt is pretty obviously unsafe on block in this game. Not that it's bad by any means, but Samus having a properly connecting Jab at all percents would be kinda strategically ridiculous.

If her jab kept its current stats with the one change that Jab 1 had slightly more hitstun it still wouldn't be a threat at that percent since Jab 1's knockback growth is disproportionate. The bigger issue is that it doesn't link at low percents and she can in fact he punished for landing jab. To be fair, she should be punished for landing it as it is because the hit stun is just that bad. If players aren't punishing it it's simply from matchup inexperience (maybe certain characters with slow options can't punish, not sure). Even the til that advises you to run away after landing jab 1 is wrong because you don't have time to run away before being punished. You have a point about the combo leading into Charge Shot but it has to be reasonably charged in the first place (which is hard in certain matchups) and IIRC it doesn't even kill reliably around 100% unless your weight is around Rosalina's. It would certainly make her scarier, though.
When Rage is a thing, and Samus is one of the most durable characters in the game by design, Charge Shot can very realistically kill you around 80-90% without a problem. So yeah, I actually do think that there are arguments that Samus in fact needs a poor Jab by design.
 

Kofu

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Her F-tilt is pretty obviously unsafe on block in this game. Not that it's bad by any means, but Samus having a properly connecting Jab at all percents would be kinda strategically ridiculous.

When Rage is a thing, and Samus is one of the most durable characters in the game by design, Charge Shot can very realistically kill you around 80-90% without a problem. So yeah, I actually do think that there are arguments that Samus in fact needs a poor Jab by design.
I think you have a point. But it's something they could fix by having her second jab hit at a higher angle. In general I think Samus's character design is a bit flawed, her threatening moves being one part of it. Charge Shot is indeed her most threatening aspect. But it just feels wrong that that's her main danger (FSmash, BAir, and occasionally DAir can be a threat sometimes too) when Lucario exists. Lucario has a similar projectile with similar power at higher percentage, but so much more of what he has becomes threatening as his percent rises. Samus... not so much.

Eh, I'm done discussing it. It's pointless and doesn't add anything since her jab doesn't link and is highly unlikely to be changed to link.
 

Ffamran

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You guys...do realize Nintendo knows her jab doesn't link right? They WANT it that way. They even say it doesn't link properly in one of the tips.

Don't beat a dead horse over something the dev teams clearly did on purpose.
My issue and this applies real world logic which never really applies to video game logic is that a jab should space and deal free damage. Someone's about to grab you? Jab and fall back or punish. Someone's about to lunge in on you? Jab to interrupt. Jabbing in general is like a poke to assess a situation, feint, and it's free damage.

Meta Knight's jab is easy to punish, but the area he covers and the follow up when read right can still do something throughout the game.

Samus's jab can't really do that early on and even at late game, it's still dangerous.

Ganondorf's jab is a literal jab. One hit, it spaces, does decent damage, and it's fast. It lacks the power of Ftilt and the launching setup of Dtilt, but it's all right to space and make time to figure out the game plan.

I don't know, but changing some properties could make her jab link better at the cost of power or even safety like it always links, but the end lag on Jab 2 is longer. It's not a game-breaking issue; it's just annoying though like how Jigglypuff can Bair or Rest in the middle of Falco's jab combo and net a free KO.
 
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oldkingcroz

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Well, they changed Link's Fsmash to link properly. It was just silly before. If people gripe about it enough (Samus is already struggling in competitive viability), Nintendo might just change it. Not sure why they said "NO MORE BALANCE PATCHES", but it's certainly not impossible to enact change. The Pac Man glitch might get patched (along with a few other things), so gripe away', if you ask me.
 
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Conda

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Why jab with Samus when you have ftilt
Jabs hit more than once and are safe when your opponents spotdodge and sometimes roll, and have a completely different use than ftilts do. Having a bad jab is a big deal as its a fundamental move for many characters that can compete with your opponent's defensive option.

Well, they changed Link's Fsmash to link properly. It was just silly before. If people gripe about it enough (Samus is already struggling in competitive viability), Nintendo might just change it.
Not a good idea to have this mentality. This is a discussion forum, not a developer-watched forum. This will never be like LoL's forum or WoW's forum, so complaining for change's sake is a bad idea and admitting to it is even worse.

"Blizz plz change Samus's jab."
 
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You don't think Nintendo devs pop in here every now and again?
 

Ffamran

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Haha, I remember those Blizzard jokes. Car's broken? Better complain on the Blizzard forums.

Are we still on ZSS or Samus now? Have we talked about their MU? Or should we do something wild like Jigglypuff vs Peach?
 

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So yeah, I finally versed a good Luigi in a ditto and as a few other characters [Rob, Game and Watch], and dang. A good Luigi is a beast without remorse. Luigi will wreck you upside down in most situations it feels, and since approaching is easier in this game, it's all the better for him. I know he still has problems with it, but I think Luigi can get past swords a lot better here. Projectiles are now his only weakness approach wise. If you don't have one against Luigi, you're in big, big trouble. Honestly, I did a lot better as Rob than Game and Watch [ROB at least keeps him out with lasers and gimps] but gets comboed to hell. Game and Watch didn't have a reliable projectile to keep him out, so I got mutilated. So if you don't got a good projectile, it's bad news. He is only vulnerable during his recovery then, since you won't beat him close quarters. Ever. He has some of the fastest, if not fastest start up moves overall in game, [with very little cool down lag to punish him sans up and down B]. Fireball is annoying as heck.

And ever during recovery, a good Luigi in my match could mix it up with how he used missile and down B, it was actually quite neat. But still gimpable. I'll say it now: If more and more players can learn to use a jumpless cyclone like Boss with Luigi...it'll be chaos.

So yeah, maybe I was wrong, maybe he is top 15. Top 12 possibly with jumpless cyclones. Yikes.
 
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Nu~

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I can see top 10 with the ice ball custom. He can send a wall of multiple projectiles at you while approaching, which forces you to shield and get grabbed. It's even more pressuring at higher percentages when the opponent will freeze if they don't block the hit.
 
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Real Smooth-Like

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But WHY is it a deliberate choice? A2Z could very well be right that they did it for balance purposes but it's very fixable by either changing the launch angle or increasing the endlag to prevent immediate Charge Shot followups. Practically every character in this game has a jab that has damage-racking purposes except Samus. Hers is just bad. MK's is bad too but it still is more effective than Samus's IMO.
Apparently when Nintendo had finished developing samus for sm4sh sakurai and company thought she was too op. Im guessing this is one of the nerfs they hit her with. Not sure though, that's just what i heard.
 

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My issue and this applies real world logic which never really applies to video game logic is that a jab should space and deal free damage. Someone's about to grab you? Jab and fall back or punish. Someone's about to lunge in on you? Jab to interrupt. Jabbing in general is like a poke to assess a situation, feint, and it's free damage.

Meta Knight's jab is easy to punish, but the area he covers and the follow up when read right can still do something throughout the game.

Samus's jab can't really do that early on and even at late game, it's still dangerous.

Ganondorf's jab is a literal jab. One hit, it spaces, does decent damage, and it's fast. It lacks the power of Ftilt and the launching setup of Dtilt, but it's all right to space and make time to figure out the game plan.
Ganondorf's Jab is 8f startup.

Both Samus's ftilt (8f) and dtilt (6f) are faster "jabs" than Ganondorf's. I can't speak for cooldown yet (since that data isn't available), but I feel like whiffing Ganondorf's Jab is a bad position to be in... about as bad as Samus's ftilt.

Now I tend to play characters with very good jabs. (Robin, despite the lack of linking... and PacMan). So I know the need for a low-risk move to just "throw out" against the opponent. Ganondorf doesn't have done. At all.
 

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Apparently when Nintendo had finished developing samus for sm4sh sakurai and company thought she was too op. Im guessing this is one of the nerfs they hit her with. Not sure though, that's just what i heard.
Ahh classic Sakurai. Brings us some of the best character choices ever [Gamee and Watch, Duck Hunt] and yet makes some questionable decisions in balance. Did people actually say Samus was OP during that time? I want to see the poll/video or whatever.
 

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Help tips specifically state that you use Jab1 and mix up your next choice, where Jab 2 can cover options once the opponent has been conditioned that way.
ZSS and Squirtle Jabs in Brawl acted out in the same way. In ZSS case she has a completely linking jab now, so I don't think it's a coincidence.
 
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Ffamran

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Ganondorf's Jab is 8f startup.

Both Samus's ftilt (8f) and dtilt (6f) are faster "jabs" than Ganondorf's. I can't speak for cooldown yet (since that data isn't available), but I feel like whiffing Ganondorf's Jab is a bad position to be in... about as bad as Samus's ftilt.

Now I tend to play characters with very good jabs. (Robin, despite the lack of linking... and PacMan). So I know the need for a low-risk move to just "throw out" against the opponent. Ganondorf doesn't have done. At all.
Ganondorf's slow overall, but his jab's knockback is still good. Is his Dtilt faster? The layout for the frame data page is just weird on a phone, so I'll check later.

Also, Samus was confirmed for having the fastest overall start up moves in SSB4. As for end lag, I don't know.
 

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Apparently when Nintendo had finished developing samus for sm4sh sakurai and company thought she was too op. Im guessing this is one of the nerfs they hit her with. Not sure though, that's just what i heard.
It's true that a lot of people from the development team thought Samus was the most powerful character. How anybody could possibly come to that conclusion is an absolute mystery to me though. It's always fascinating to see how little they seem to understand about simple risk/reward fundmentals. They thought Samus was the best but could not foresee that Diddy's uair or Brawler's Helicopter Kick would be problematic moves?

:059:
 

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Ganondorf's jab is his fastest ground attack. In the air NAir and UAir come out faster. Samus's jab 1 just needs more hitstun at low percents, that's all I ask.

EDIT: I know I said I'd drop it but clearly I haven't rid myself of the excess sodium in my system. I guess moves that blatantly have such low hitstun that they're punishable on hit seem like bad game design. There are other moves like that in this game but most of them seem to be related to spacing. It reminded me of Luigi's Dash Attack in Brawl. If it connected on a grounded opponent, they could usually shield the last attack and have over a 10-frame advantage on the green plumber.
 
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Ffamran

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It's true that a lot of people from the development team thought Samus was the most powerful character. How anybody could possibly come to that conclusion is an absolute mystery to me though. It's always fascinating to see how little they seem to understand about simple risk/reward fundmentals. They thought Samus was the best but could not foresee that Diddy's uair or Brawler's Helicopter Kick would be problematic moves?

:059:
Zelda mains would rage if the same was confirmed about the devs thinking she was OP.

From another standpoint, like, maybe a party game standpoint, I can see why she'd be considered OP. In a party situation, there's so much chaos that it would be fairly easy to bust a Charge Shot and murder people or land a sweetspot with Zelda.

From a competitive and 1v1 standpoint, Zelda's three sweetspot aerials, one magic aerial, and one regular aerial really hurts her game. Likewise, Samus having attacks that land easier on larger opponents and being a large fighter does make it difficult against smaller ones like Pikachu. Also, this is obvious, but in 1v1 or even 2v2, there's less things to hide behind and chaos is either little to none.
 

Makorel

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there was a lot of time between that comment about Samus being powerful and the release of the game. I'm willing to bet a lot of changes were made between those two points.
 
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Aunt Jemima

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Going from my previous post about Kirby's significant jump boost from using Hammer Bash, I've worked on it a bit more to find actual uses for this outside of recovering. Some things were obvious, others were not. I'm almost certain this'll help Kirby out, whether it be minor or significant.

Hammer Bash with Meteor Stone

Quite possibly the most interesting and useful find, is that I now have a solution for using Meteor Stone. To inform those who don't know, Meteor Stone is one of Kirby's stone custom, and as the name implies, meteor's opponents. There's a few difference with this meteor smash than others, though. For one, it's one of the strongest meteor smashes in the game, killing basically every character at 10% while hanging from the ledge. Along with that, it's a falling, lasting hitbox. This makes it easier to challenge recoveries, as Kirby is falling down while the opponent is rising up, making it MUCH easier to land this meteor than others. Lastly, Kirby is completely invincible while falling, so he can go straight through recoveries. The only way to knock Kirby out of Meteor Stone is by using a move that does 20% or more in one hit, in the air, while he's falling, without getting hit yourself.

Now, there's one catch that completely ruins this custom. If Kirby full hops off the ledge and uses Meteor Stone, if he doesn't hit the opponent... he's dead. The added transformation time takes so long to get out of that Kirby can not escape, even if he mashes out. This can be seen here: http://i.imgur.com/yo2hC3Z.gif. Of course, by that this'll seem like there's no reason to use Meteor Stone, hence the "if he doesn't hit the opponent". This is because a new system was added in Smash 4 with Kirby's Stone. If any of the Stone variants come in contact with ANYTHING while falling, whether it be an opponent, projectile, or the ground, he can get out of Stone instantly, letting him survive Meteor Stone. This made the move have an incredibly high risk:reward ratio - if you land it, you survive and the opponent is dead, no matter the %. If you miss, you're dead and the opponent lives.

We now have a solution to this. As should be relatively obvious, Hammer Bash comes into place. If Kirby jumps off the ledge and boosts his jump with Hammer Bash, he can survive Meteor Stone if he misses the opponent! This can be seen here: http://i.imgur.com/R8DU1tX.gifv. Along with that, to remove any risk of being killed from being a bit low, there's a few things that come into place. First, is that the opponent is either still recovering, or just got on stage, which reduces the likelihood of Kirby being punished while getting out of Stone. Adding to that, and probably reducing the most risk, is that Kirby can buffer Upper Cutter to immediately grab onto the ledge from the height he gets out of Meteor Stone at. The height is, quite literally, right where Kirby needs to be to Upper Cutter back to the stage without using any jumps. If that becomes too obvious, he also has the choice to back away from where he was using Hammer Bash jumps, and Jumping Inhale back to the stage, or just use Hammer Bash jumps to get back and save his recovery in the case that he does get hit.

What this means for Kirby is that he now has a relatively low risk, yet high reward way to destroy recovering opponents. Obviously, characters such as Pikachu and Greninja that can quickly change the direction of their recovery can avoid this. However, characters such as Marth, Link, Villager, Olimar, and Duck Hunt, who either have recoveries that go straight upwards (Marth and Link) or recoveries that are slow yet go great distances (Villager, Olimar, Duck Hunt) will suffer from this. Similar to his recovering options, Kirby can easily mix-up his edgeguarding game, too, so he doesn't have to resort to Meteor Stone all the time. He has his D-Air, which can lead into another D-Air to secure low percent kills, or a footstool to send opponents tumbling into the boundaries. He has Upper Cutter and B-Air, both of which are amazing, fast, high-powered stage spiking attacks. He can also use F-Air to create a WoP (Wall of Pain), and can use B-Air walls to exhaust people's jumps and destroy them.

Hammer Bash with Burying Stone

This one, while quite situational, allows Kirby to rack up quite a bit of damage in an instant. Against CPU mashing, which is basically god-tier mashing, Burying Stone (which buries opponents, obviously) can combo into Hammer Bash at any percent, although 0 to 10% is a bit harder and requires basically frame-perfect timing. This is an easy 37%, and at higher percents, such as 100%+, two Burying Stone's can be used for around 53% total. This is because Burying Stone adds on transformation time by completely removing the ending lag, letting Kirby act out of Stone instantly.

Air Chasing with Hammer Bash

This one was pretty obvious, but helps quite a bit. After launching opponents upwards, Kirby can easily chase them up to continue juggles, kill with Upper Cutter, and can help add on to strings. This is because Kirby's full hop height is significantly increased with Hammer Bash, so he can get up in the air faster than usual. Using this, it greatly increases Kirby's ability to continue juggles. Also, as Kirby rises while swinging the Hammer, he can catch opponents who try to fast fall away.

Ledge Hop with Hammer Bash

This one is actually a bit more useful than others. Kirby can add another mix-up to his ledge options by cancelling the initial frames of a ledge hop into Hammer Bash. This is similar to how Ganondorf/Captain Falcon can cancel into their down specials, of Marth/Lucina/Ike can instantly counter on the ledge. The main difference is that Kirby carries his momentum up with the ledge hop, sending him incredibly high above the stage. This allows him to easily dodge any attacks from ledge hops that are read by the opponent. He can then fall down with Stone, D-Air, or another attack and punish the opponent. Along with that, if the opponent reads the ledge hop and tries to punish Kirby by jumping into him and attacking, they'll be hit into the air with Hammer Bash, knocked straight into a juggle as Kirby follows upwards.
_______________________________________

There's still more I could go into, but I'm still exploring viable ways to use this. So... that's the end of this post!

Also, I forgot to mention it in the last post I made. After a bit more testing, due to the lack of height on Kirby's last mid-air jump, using that jump withing any Hammer Bash boosts will actually let Kirby go around one Kirby higher than before. As a comparison, when going from Palutena's Temple bottom platform to the bridge, Villager's Balloon Trip ends around two Kirbys higher than Kirby lands.

yes I used Kirby units as a way to measure
 

Locke 06

Sayonara, bye bye~
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Samus' jab didn't link in Brawl either IIRC. This isn't new. I'm not sure why this is such a point of discussion.
 

KlefkiHolder

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For what its worth, it links in Melee.

Unless my eyes deceived me when I was watching Sweet Prologue.
 

Beefcake134

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Link seems to be buffed a lot from his previously installment and is probably the best demo character so far from what I've played of him against level 9 cpu's(Outside of exploiting the villager's shovel grab). I dunno, just my two cents.
I do agree how he's really buffed; however, as I main I notice how he can be unreliable when he is facing characters with better mobility (the major one that comes to mind is Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu)
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Because it's still bad.
meh around the 30% range it work the way the tips say it should but all in all its fun to throw out the first hit when ur opponent is off stage. if he manages to get grounded again just throw it out and watch them slid off the edge. pretty fun
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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I use it to punish spotdodges as the second hit is great to focus on landing, and using the first as a sort of 'charge up'. Also its great to punish landings.
 

Nairo

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I don't necessarily agree. Nairo is a great player so he can play however he wants and get by on excellent fundamentals but he makes suboptimal decisions with ZSS pretty often. If he continues to play her he'll probably wring out those small issues. ZSS is weird and a lot of fundamental concepts that seem universal when you play other characters don't really carry over. It's the same few things that pop up every time someone new to ZSS plays her, even in Brawl.

For example, there's almost never a reason to try to follow dsmash knockback after the stun ends for an air follow-up. ZSS' aerials don't kill (even back air doesn't really kill from the center of the stage), up-b is less reliable in the air, and her ground options (even grab->dthrow->uair) do more damage than any air option with more reliability. I don't know why Nairo does that, and tbh I doubt he knows, maybe he's trying to get a slightly earlier kill? But he does it all the time, even at %s where there's no way the follow-up would kill at all.

If you want damage just fsmash, if you want to kill up-b. If you need to save your kill moves for some reason then straight up grab them.

Again, obviously Nairo is a really good player in general but calling his ZSS play anything but "getting there" is being sort of generous.
OBVIOUSLY its to style. Fighting nakats falcon in a 20man weekly we both just try to style on each other as opposed to fighting at a 60+ tourney. Besides choco I have yet to see another ZSS do as much work, only talk like they play a perfect zss themselves(NOBODY HAS A PERFECT ZSS) which is kinda annoying. And I do dthrow - upair most of the time off a grab. Calling my ZSS play "getting there" is rather odd unless "getting there" means doing better than some ZSS users THEN YEA I GUESS SO lol.
 
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Real Smooth-Like

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I do agree how he's really buffed; however, as I main I notice how he can be unreliable when he is facing characters with better mobility (the major one that comes to mind is Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu)
As a Link main I can agree with this. But it's not just Link. It's most characters with average to below average mobility that consistently struggle to deal with faster ones. One of the things that pisses me off about smash is that faster characters are most of the time straight up superior to slower ones. Diddy, sheik, zamus, yoshi, pikachu... All of those characters are perceived higher tiered so far, and they all have respectable to great mobility. In this game it seems that the slower characters will never be higher tiered unless they have special ability or mechanic that they can abuse. (D3 chain grabs in brawl)
 

HeroMystic

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As a Link main I can agree with this. But it's not just Link. It's most characters with average to below average mobility that consistently struggle to deal with faster ones. One of the things that pisses me off about smash is that faster characters are most of the time straight up superior to slower ones. Diddy, sheik, zamus, yoshi, pikachu... All of those characters are perceived higher tiered so far, and they all have respectable to great mobility. In this game it seems that the slower characters will never be higher tiered unless they have special ability or mechanic that they can abuse. (D3 chain grabs in brawl)
This is somewhat true. Mobility is important in this game, but not to the point where slow characters have no chance against the fast ones. Megaman has actually been getting a lot of hype lately due to his excellent spacing moveset and solid kill moves. Will's DK is still amazing, and a Bowser managed to get to 3rd place in a recent tourney I watched (can't remember the tourney name). Also Rosalina completely destroys characters and I wouldn't classify her as a fast character.

While the slower characters are not tiered as highly, I feel their usual increase in kill power and solid gimmicks will continue to make them tournament-viable.
 

Real Smooth-Like

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This is somewhat true. Mobility is important in this game, but not to the point where slow characters have no chance against the fast ones. Megaman has actually been getting a lot of hype lately due to his excellent spacing moveset and solid kill moves. Will's DK is still amazing, and a Bowser managed to get to 3rd place in a recent tourney I watched (can't remember the tourney name). Also Rosalina completely destroys characters and I wouldn't classify her as a fast character.

While the slower characters are not tiered as highly, I feel their usual increase in kill power and solid gimmicks will continue to make them tournament-viable.
Yeah you're right. I came across as really salty haha, I didn't mean like the slower characters stood no chance it just seems like you have to work a lot harder to pull off a win.

As for slower characters... I hope you're right. I would love to win or even see someone win a tournament of some value with charizard. That would make me feel just dandy.
 

FimPhym

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The posts in this thread about game dev are full of hindsight bias and sorta cringeworthy. It is very easy to identify what's unfair after the game comes out and you have a lot of tournaments. While it may look obvious now it certainly is not obvious before hand. How did we ever not know meta knight was the best in brawl? How did they devs not know? Again, that's our hindsight bias talking.

For all we know, two weeks before the 3ds version came out samus was the undisputed best character in the game and emergency nerfs put her back in line. Character power levels can swing pretty easily during development. Based on the first patch, the devs seems to have a pretty good grasp on what's up in the game so it's weird when people call out stuff as clueless.

That said, allow me to be a complete hypocrite and say it seems like talk about the dev process of the game doesn't seem to produce much content or value. There's almost no opportunity to learn something new about characters. Lower quality than people relentlessly dissecting bad tier lists, even?
 
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