Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

Well, a Megaman just beat Kirby in GF at Smash Attack, after Kirby reset the bracket. 50 man tourney, and included. I knew MM was great but I legitimately have only seen 3 or 4 Kirbys since game release so that was a pretty surprising result! He's far better than I gave him credit for.

There was also a really good Shulk which again I have not seen much of. This one actually utilized Monado Arts a ton and it really worked out for him, I understand the top 10 predictions a little more now. And Kirby with Monado is still hype.

That being said, Capt. Falcon is way overhyped. He's a rushdown character that has a hard time approaching sans dash grab, urgh.

 

[|RK|]

Well, a Megaman just beat Kirby in GF at Smash Attack, after Kirby reset the bracket. 50 man tourney, and included. I knew MM was great but I legitimately have only seen 3 or 4 Kirbys since game release so that was a pretty surprising result! He's far better than I gave him credit for.

There was also a really good Shulk which again I have not seen much of. This one actually utilized Monado Arts a ton and it really worked out for him, I understand the top 10 predictions a little more now. And Kirby with Monado is still hype.

That being said, Capt. Falcon is way overhyped. He's a rushdown character that has a hard time approaching sans dash grab, urgh.

Is there a video of these matches? I need to see the Kirby vs Shulk and Kirby vs MM.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Captain Falcon and in a similar situation, Ganondorf, are being overhyped because of what happened in Brawl where they were bottom tier; in Ganondorf's case, he had his own tier below bottom. The other reason is that Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were considered amazing in Melee, being bottom tier in Brawl, and now being very viable in SSB4 makes people overhype them. In a way, this is their comebacks.

If the same happened to Zelda, then Zelda would be overhyped as well since she was all right in Melee, but bad in Brawl. Surprisingly enough, this isn't being applied to Link who was in a slightly similar situation, but worse since he was bottom in two games, 64 and Brawl, while being all right in Melee.

That's all right, since those characters, the Capt. and Ganondorf, get attention. The other one is worse which is what's happening to Falco, Meta Knight, and Marth who are left in the dust since they basically went from being top tier material in all their games - debut in Meta Knight's case - and are now not ultra good, but good. To many, especially the uninformed, they went from being heroes to zeroes. Ironically, they're viable even if they're "nerfed" compared to what happened to the Capt. and Ganondorf in Brawl. Even more ironic is that people called for Meta Knight to be nerfed considering the shenanigans in Brawl.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah you're right. I came across as really salty haha, I didn't mean like the slower characters stood no chance it just seems like you have to work a lot harder to pull off a win.

As for slower characters... I hope you're right. I would love to win or even see someone win a tournament of some value with charizard. That would make me feel just dandy.

Well here's the thing. Right now, the meta is based off of being hyper-aggressive to overwhelm your opponent due to everyone figuring out shielding is now easily punishable if overused (empty hops into grab is so hype).

I think once everyone start figuring out how to counter hyper-aggression, defensive play will balance out the offense and we'll start seeing everyone on even ground once again.

 

[thehard]

Is there a video of these matches? I need to see the Kirby vs Shulk and Kirby vs MM.

VODs here: http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/profile/past_broadcasts
Individual matches will go on their Youtube channel later: http://youtube.com/teamspooky

 

[FimPhym]

As an apology for my low content post, I will now write character impressions about the only guy I know: Dedede!

So everyone seems to agree dedede has polarised match ups, and based on my experience in for glory and reading posts here, most people would say the polarisation occurs on the axis of zoning power. The more zoning a character is, the worse for dedede, and zero projectiles means dedede wins! As a result, I see a lots of characters counter picked that have many zoning options: DHD, Villager, Links, Samus etc. if this all makes sense to you then you are in good company, but I disagree with it.

My only experience is thousands for glory so take my stuff with a pinch of salt, better players than me have stressed the difference playing offline makes. With that out they way, my opinion is that once you have any projectile at all, the most important thing is how mobile you are, how safe your attacks are, and how well you can recover.

Compare yoshi, sheik and fox to DHD, villager, and toon link for example. Now, the first set may just be outright better but I also believe they are more troubling to dedede in particular. Eggs, needles and blaster are already enough to force dedede to approach. The wall of projectiles the latter set of characters offers is really just overkill. The difference is, when you get in on the zoners, life is pretty good. When you get in on sheik or fox or yoshi you're in on... Sheik and fox and yoshi. These characters are also good at avoiding gimps or have varied options to recover that makes it hard for dedede to do what he does best: edge guarding!

Some of you might be objecting at this point. "Sure, DHD has vulnerable recovery but villager's recovery is insane!" That's true for most characters, but honestly villagers comfort off stage isn't enough to prevent dedede bullying his relatively vulnerable up b. The rules of what's safe or not change quite a bit with dedede.

So yeah, right now I love fighting the heavy zoner characters. The match ups are hard at neutral but equally brutal for them during my advantage time. The top tiers with projectiles though? They scare me. I'm forced to approach, but I'm also not ever at as big an advantage. This isn't just a power level difference thing either, imo. If Rosalina is still top tier, she's relatively fine for dedede. I don't know if dedede has the advantage, but he can abuse her recovery, has a very easy time killing luma, and isn't under heavy pressure at range. Lovely.

I hope I've paid off my off topic sins, thanks.

 

[thehard]

Dedede

just get to the tier placement

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm glad we're past the point where we think Mario is garbage

That character is ****ing solid

 

[Smooth Criminal]

just get to the tier placement

ASS TIER

Nah, pretty good summary @ FimPhym . You're absolutely right about the fact that characters with great projectiles on top of their great kit giving D3 hell.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yonder]

I'm glad we're past the point where we think Mario is garbage

That character is ****ing solid

No one thought Mario was garbage [cept AZ lol]

Only Luigi was thought to be garbage to I'd replace Mario with Luigi. Took possibly the biggest U turn in viability I've ever seen in Smash history possibly [along with Olimar and ZSS in Brawl]

 

[Trifroze]

The posts in this thread about game dev are full of hindsight bias and sorta cringeworthy. It is very easy to identify what's unfair after the game comes out and you have a lot of tournaments. While it may look obvious now it certainly is not obvious before hand. How did we ever not know meta knight was the best in brawl? How did they devs not know? Again, that's our hindsight bias talking.

Not as much retrospect bias as critique at their testing methods. If they did proper testing and cared at all about player input the game would be considerably more balanced. On top of that they are actually saying they're going to stop patching unless something literally broken emerges. It's not a matter of incapability, it's a matter of their mindset towards those issues, they don't think it's important enough.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm glad we're past the point where we think Mario is garbage

That character is ****ing solid

Well I can attest to saying Mario is solid, but is he top 10 solid?

I can't agree with that just yet, but it's starting to look like being in top 10 doesn't matter as heavily as it did in the past games.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

VODs here: http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/profile/past_broadcasts
Individual matches will go on their Youtube channel later: http://youtube.com/teamspooky

Oh, it's MikeKirby. That makes sense. He's considered one of the best Kirby mains ATM. I thought some random Kirby main nobody knows would appear, haha.

 

[Chuva]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

Mario doesn't beat people, Usmash does

 

[Nu~]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

Agreed. He just seems so...standard. Solid but average. He really doesn't beat anyone imo, he just goes even with more than half of the cast

 

[Ffamran]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

Bowser... Oh wait... Wrong game.... Donkey Kong! ... Oops, wrong game again along with animal abuse... Peach? ... Never mind, that's domestic abuse... Dr. Mario? ... Wait, that's the same person... Yoshi? ... Yeah, that's animal abuse and/or assault... Luigi? ... No, that's also domestic abuse since Luigi's his younger twin... Bowser Jr.? Oh... That's child abuse...

I don't really know, but maybe Bowser Jr.? I don't know why for that. Or perhaps Dr. Mario if Dr. Mario's combo game and off-stage game is really that bad in spite of his power. Meta Knight and Kirby? I don't know why either aside from people saying that Kirby has bad approaches or something. Hell, let's throw in Little Mac since Mario would destroy his pitiful recovery with FLUDD and his Cape. Eh, I don't really know since I don't play as Mario a lot.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario does have advantages against characters, just not against the assumed top tiers.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well I can attest to saying Mario is solid, but is he top 10 solid?

I can't agree with that just yet, but it's starting to look like being in top 10 doesn't matter as heavily as it did in the past games.

I don't think he's top 10, but the sentiment used to be "Mario is garbage" or "Mario is bottom tier" but he's so far gone from bottom tier, it's insane. Like his frame data is ****ing sexy.

Agreed. He just seems so...standard. Solid but average. He really doesn't beat anyone imo, he just goes even with more than half of the cast

This is such a copout response. Mario isn't all-around in this game, he's a speedster.

 

[Antonykun]

As an apology for my low content post, I will now write character impressions about the only guy I know: Dedede!

So everyone seems to agree dedede has polarised match ups, and based on my experience in for glory and reading posts here, most people would say the polarisation occurs on the axis of zoning power. The more zoning a character is, the worse for dedede, and zero projectiles means dedede wins! As a result, I see a lots of characters counter picked that have many zoning options: DHD, Villager, Links, Samus etc. if this all makes sense to you then you are in good company, but I disagree with it.

My only experience is thousands for glory so take my stuff with a pinch of salt, better players than me have stressed the difference playing offline makes. With that out they way, my opinion is that once you have any projectile at all, the most important thing is how mobile you are, how safe your attacks are, and how well you can recover.

Compare yoshi, sheik and fox to DHD, villager, and toon link for example. Now, the first set may just be outright better but I also believe they are more troubling to dedede in particular. Eggs, needles and blaster are already enough to force dedede to approach. The wall of projectiles the latter set of characters offers is really just overkill. The difference is, when you get in on the zoners, life is pretty good. When you get in on sheik or fox or yoshi you're in on... Sheik and fox and yoshi. These characters are also good at avoiding gimps or have varied options to recover that makes it hard for dedede to do what he does best: edge guarding!

Some of you might be objecting at this point. "Sure, DHD has vulnerable recovery but villager's recovery is insane!" That's true for most characters, but honestly villagers comfort off stage isn't enough to prevent dedede bullying his relatively vulnerable up b. The rules of what's safe or not change quite a bit with dedede.

So yeah, right now I love fighting the heavy zoner characters. The match ups are hard at neutral but equally brutal for them during my advantage time. The top tiers with projectiles though? They scare me. I'm forced to approach, but I'm also not ever at as big an advantage. This isn't just a power level difference thing either, imo. If Rosalina is still top tier, she's relatively fine for dedede. I don't know if dedede has the advantage, but he can abuse her recovery, has a very easy time killing luma, and isn't under heavy pressure at range. Lovely.

I hope I've paid off my off topic sins, thanks.

Hmm I mIght have to write something about. 3D vs Villager vutim on my phone right now.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, I've heard. "Excellent frame data" "great combos"
But what's the general archetype of character that Mario has an advantage over?
His KIT seems all around is what I meant.

 

[MajiNfraze]

Not sure how much I can say for Mario since mine isn't doing great online, but I'm enjoying some moderate success with ROB (my Brawl main). Is Sheik actually as good as people are saying? I haven't touched her since they nerfed slap in Brawl.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, I've heard. "Excellent frame data" "great combos"
But what's the general archetype of character that Mario has an advantage over?
His KIT seems all around is what I meant.

Mario generally has an advantage over anyone who can't handle his large attack speed advantage, and he generally loses to characters who can effectively play safe against him. The top tiers closes the gap on his attack speed, so generally those are varying from Even to Disadvantage.

 

[mimgrim]

I think Captain Falcon and in a similar situation, Ganondorf, are being overhyped because of what happened in Brawl where they were bottom tier; in Ganondorf's case, he had his own tier below bottom. The other reason is that Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were considered amazing in Melee, being bottom tier in Brawl, and now being very viable in SSB4 makes people overhype them. In a way, this is their comebacks.

Ganondorf isn't considered amazing in Melee, he's actually considered to be on the bad side. Anyone below top 6 (Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Peach/Jiggly) isn't consider amazing. Falcon is like a bit better then ok but there is a reason people who mained him, like Hax, have dropped him for Fox.

If the same happened to Zelda, then Zelda would be overhyped as well since she was all right in Melee, but bad in Brawl. Surprisingly enough, this isn't being applied to Link who was in a slightly similar situation, but worse since he was bottom in two games, 64 and Brawl, while being all right in Melee.

Zelda isn't all right in Melee. She's actually pretty horrid.

Almost every time I see people post about Melee on this thread I want to kill someone because of how incredibly misinformed on what most of you say about Melee. >_>

To keep it Smash 4 related. I'm curious as to why most people are placing Villager so high. Don't get me wrong here. I don't think he is a bad character, far from it. But he has a pretty clear weakness against character that are fast/mobile and can easily rush in on him when he is trying to wall/camp you out or just flat out ignore his attempts of walling/camping due to how laggy his best tools for walling/camping are or how easy they are to beat out. But against the character he can keep out he will be a night mare and I don't think he can be out-camped. I have the feeling he is going to end up being a/the gate-keeper character for the tops.

 

[Beefcake134]

As a Link main I can agree with this. But it's not just Link. It's most characters with average to below average mobility that consistently struggle to deal with faster ones. One of the things that pisses me off about smash is that faster characters are most of the time straight up superior to slower ones. Diddy, sheik, zamus, yoshi, pikachu... All of those characters are perceived higher tiered so far, and they all have respectable to great mobility. In this game it seems that the slower characters will never be higher tiered unless they have special ability or mechanic that they can abuse. (D3 chain grabs in brawl)

thank you, as i use Link i tend to actually use his bow and boomerang for zoning and play conservative by going in when i see opportunities (mainly when the person gets hit by the boomerang). I do go offense a lot with him though once i can attack i do at least 50% damage

 

[Conda]

Faster characters a great in early metagames due to their synergy with rushdown and aggression-based playstyles. But once a fighting game's metagame develops, it becomes more chess-like, and slower-yet-methodical characters become more scary. This is because they are piloted by players who understand how to fight using mental abilities rather than solely dexterity-based abilities.

This requires wisdom over how the game is played, which comes with time. Which is young, as the game just came out.

 

[|RK|]

VODs here: http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/profile/past_broadcasts
Individual matches will go on their Youtube channel later: http://youtube.com/teamspooky

Thank you so much! The upwards Kirbycide was incredible, even if accidental. That's something that I'll have to keep in mind for the Kirby/Mega Man matchup, lol. Crash Bomb doesn't do much favors if you get caught like that, lol.

 

[Nu~]

Mario generally has an advantage over anyone who can't handle his large attack speed advantage, and he generally loses to characters who can effectively play safe against him. The top tiers closes the gap on his attack speed, so generally those are varying from Even to Disadvantage.

Ah. Thank you. Now, I understand why he can be seen as a threat in the early metagame

 

[Ffamran]

Ganondorf isn't considered amazing in Melee, he's actually considered to be on the bad side. Anyone below top 6 (Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Peach/Jiggly) isn't consider amazing. Falcon is like a bit better then ok but there is a reason people who mained him, like Hax, have dropped him for Fox.



Zelda isn't all right in Melee. She's actually pretty horrid.

Almost every time I see people post about Melee on this thread I want to kill someone because of how incredibly misinformed on what most of you say about Melee. >_>

Compared to Brawl Ganondorf, Melee Ganondorf would be considered amazing. Those below the top 6 would still be viable while those below them, which is where Zelda is in, are decent at best, and then there's the bottom tier... That's better than being overall crap in Brawl like being dead last or barely usable.

 

[mimgrim]

Faster characters a great in early metagames due to their synergy with rushdown and aggression-based playstyles. But once a fighting game's metagame develops, it becomes more chess-like, and slower-yet-methodical characters become more scary. This is because they are piloted by players who understand how to fight using mental abilities rather than solely dexterity-based abilities.

This requires wisdom over how the game is played, which comes with time. Which is young, as the game just came out.

I don't disagree. However I still have qualms about Villager as the meta-game develops due to the fact that fast characters can punish Villager for using Gyroid or Tree from more then half the stage away by simply running and once people start figuring out that sling-shots are on the easy side to beat out.

Compared to Brawl Ganondorf, Melee Ganondorf would be considered amazing. Those below the top 6 would still be viable while those below them, which is where Zelda is in, are decent at best, and then there's the bottom tier... That's better than being overall crap in Brawl like being dead last or barely usable.

Comparing Melee and Brawl is like comparing apples and oranges. Characters need to be considered relative to the game that they are in which is being discussed. Meleedorf, in relation to Melee, is a character that isn't really viable, viable as in very unlikely to win a National solo-mained, or even top 8. No character in Melee outside of the top 6 is truly viable, and even then a argument could be made that the only viable characters in Melee are Fox/Falco,. There have been outliers to this but they are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Ffamran]

Comparing Melee and Brawl is like comparing apples and oranges. Characters need to be considered relative to the game that they are in which is being discussed. Meleedorf, in relation to Melee, is a character that isn't really viable, viable as in very unlikely to win a National solo-mained, or even top 8. No character in Melee outside of the top 6 is truly viable, and even then a argument could be made that the only viable characters in Melee are Fox/Falco,. There have been outliers to this but they are the exception, not the rule.

Well, I'm not comparing them, but I'm pointing out how people do compare them which is what my post was addressing. People do and will compare characters from past games, especially with SSB compared to say, Street Fighter which tends to remain consistent.

People still compare SSB4 Falco to Melee and Brawl Falco and play SSB4 Falco like Melee and/or Brawl Falco. That doesn't work, hell, it didn't work between Melee to Brawl, but people still do it anyways and complain about why SSB4 Falco "sucks", is "nerfed", and overall "trash". Same thing with Meta Knight despite people asking for nerfs so Brawl Meta Knight won't haunt them or Marth, Olimar, or even Bowser. Yes, people complain about SSB4 Bowser 'cause he's not Brawl and/or Melee Bowser. Why? I don't know, you ask them.

Even Fox, who remains fairly consistent throughout the series, cannot be played the same in each game. Try pulling 64 Fox stuff in Melee and you're going to get your tail handed back on a platter with spit on it. Still, people will compare him to past games and how his "glory days" in Melee are gone.

Scenario: A Captain Falcon main since 64. The Capt. is "great" in 64 and Melee, then Brawl comes out and as stuff gets analyzed, the player is disheartened from seeing the Capt. "fall". SSB4 is released, the Capt. is "better" and what does that mean to many? THE CAPT. IS BACK!

No he's not. No characters are "back" in that context. They're only "back" in terms of literally coming back like Dr. Mario or Mewtwo came back from Melee and who didn't show up in Brawl. Everyone else just stayed, was introduced, cut, or never came back except for who came back in spirit as .

Optional: sword analogy.

Spoiler

People will compare everything even if it doesn't make sense. People compared European swords to Japanese katanas. They're not the "same" weapon. Katanas are more slashing and stabbing weapons and in context to Japan, are really dangerous. European swords ended up leaning towards thrusting and stabbing and in context to Europe, are dangerous. Take a katana to medieval Europe and prepare to get killed since that sword will do little against metal armor and shields. Take a medieval sword and be prepared to be hacked to death because that sword is heavy and parrying with it is probably more difficult compared to a slender katana. In general, swords are not meant to clash together and considering the fragile, but sharp nature of katanas, it's going to be hell for them if they clash with a claymore accidental or not.

Katanas are like "glass cannons" and the workmanship was required considering the nature of the iron found in Japan. Europe got lucky so they didn't need dedicate that much work on one sword. Every blade has a purpose and the only way to compare them would be to fine the most similar blades like say, a cutlass and a saber instead of a freaking zweihander and a shortsword or a dao and a rapier - slashing vs. stabbing...

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

thank you, as i use Link i tend to actually use his bow and boomerang for zoning and play conservative by going in when i see opportunities (mainly when the person gets hit by the boomerang). I do go offense a lot with him though once i can attack i do at least 50% damage

I feel links play style is different this time around. It's a lot more dynamic. Instead of just running away spamming the crap out of his projectiles and running away, he should be using them while making small strides/shorthops forward keeping them under hitstun until he can get in melee range to really apply the damage. And it works quite effectively. With smash 4, I don't have too much tourney experience, only for glory and offline friendlies ( although my friends do attend tourneys), but if I had to rank him tier wise Id put him higher mid tier. he's got great utility, good strings and combo potential for a zoner, and he can kill so quick ( he's got a tipper effect like marth now now on a few moves) but he has some really bad matchups against currently perceived high tiers. When I'm playing seriously I always go with my boy link, and i haven't been beaten with him ever more than twice in a row. Maybe that's due to luck or unskilled opponents, but I honestly think he could become a recognizable threat if he had a good amount of representation

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Anyone see Bloodcross' Zard beat ADHD's Diddy at Collision?ll

?

I would love to see this.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

?

I would love to see this.

I saw it. However adhd destroyed him after that on a reverse 2 stock lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I saw it. However adhd destroyed him after that on a reverse 2 stock lol.

I'm gonna go cry now...

This world was not kind to .

 

[Beefcake134]

I feel links play style is different this time around. It's a lot more dynamic. Instead of just running away spamming the crap out of his projectiles and running away, he should be using them while making small strides/shorthops forward keeping them under hitstun until he can get in melee range to really apply the damage. And it works quite effectively. With smash 4, I don't have too much tourney experience, only for glory and offline friendlies ( although my friends do attend tourneys), but if I had to rank him tier wise Id put him higher mid tier. he's got great utility, good strings and combo potential for a zoner, and he can kill so quick ( he's got a tipper effect like marth now now on a few moves) but he has some really bad matchups against currently perceived high tiers. When I'm playing seriously I always go with my boy link, and i haven't been beaten with him ever more than twice in a row. Maybe that's due to luck or unskilled opponents, but I honestly think he could become a recognizable threat if he had a good amount of representation

I hope he does, he's been my favorite ever since I was introduced to him when i was little, and if i ever go to a tourney i'll like to see other people's strategy for him because my strategy sounds similar to yours.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of Link, how well would his Jump Attack work as an anti-air? I know it does well as a good edgeguard through good reads, but since Link jumps a bit before swinging, it might be a decent option to punish someone approaching from the air.

 

[Tagxy]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

Who beats Mario?

 

[Bloodcross]

I saw it. However adhd destroyed him after that on a reverse 2 stock lol.

you missed the rest of the set apparently lolol

#namesearch

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Zelda is actually very bad in Melee.

Like, she can't really do anything. There are actually quite a few people who think she's bottom 2, like M2K who puts her and Kirby as the bottom two in a tier of their own as far and away the worst in the game.

Zelda has always sucked. :[

Also someone mentioned how the great swing in the Mario's viability is likely the greatest in Smash history. Well, I disagree since we're still super early in the meta and anything can change. Also, research some Melee Puff and ICs. :]

And finally, over on the Puff boards, last week we did the Mario MU, and we concluded on 6:4 Mario since Mario has good speed and a nice frame v. Puff, and also Up Smash is great antiair, so.... Yeah