Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

As an apology for my low content post, I will now write character impressions about the only guy I know: Dedede!

So everyone seems to agree dedede has polarised match ups, and based on my experience in for glory and reading posts here, most people would say the polarisation occurs on the axis of zoning power. The more zoning a character is, the worse for dedede, and zero projectiles means dedede wins! As a result, I see a lots of characters counter picked that have many zoning options: DHD, Villager, Links, Samus etc. if this all makes sense to you then you are in good company, but I disagree with it.

My only experience is thousands for glory so take my stuff with a pinch of salt, better players than me have stressed the difference playing offline makes. With that out they way, my opinion is that once you have any projectile at all, the most important thing is how mobile you are, how safe your attacks are, and how well you can recover.

Compare yoshi, sheik and fox to DHD, villager, and toon link for example. Now, the first set may just be outright better but I also believe they are more troubling to dedede in particular. Eggs, needles and blaster are already enough to force dedede to approach. The wall of projectiles the latter set of characters offers is really just overkill. The difference is, when you get in on the zoners, life is pretty good. When you get in on sheik or fox or yoshi you're in on... Sheik and fox and yoshi. These characters are also good at avoiding gimps or have varied options to recover that makes it hard for dedede to do what he does best: edge guarding!

Some of you might be objecting at this point. "Sure, DHD has vulnerable recovery but villager's recovery is insane!" That's true for most characters, but honestly villagers comfort off stage isn't enough to prevent dedede bullying his relatively vulnerable up b. The rules of what's safe or not change quite a bit with dedede.

So yeah, right now I love fighting the heavy zoner characters. The match ups are hard at neutral but equally brutal for them during my advantage time. The top tiers with projectiles though? They scare me. I'm forced to approach, but I'm also not ever at as big an advantage. This isn't just a power level difference thing either, imo. If Rosalina is still top tier, she's relatively fine for dedede. I don't know if dedede has the advantage, but he can abuse her recovery, has a very easy time killing luma, and isn't under heavy pressure at range. Lovely.

I hope I've paid off my off topic sins, thanks.

For what it's worth, at least Sheik and Fox can't
stop Gordos with their own projectiles.
And Dedede actually has comparable attack speed to Yoshi
in their air attacks.

 

[ChopperDave]

Here is my thing.

Who the **** does Mario beat?

As a Mega Man main, I'd argue that Mega Man has a pretty bad MU against Mario.

MM has trouble dealing with air pressure, many of his best approaches are aerial, and obviously he relies heavily on projectiles.

Mario has strong air game and doesn't sweat the fact that MM shuts down his ground game (as Mario's ground game is already pretty poor), has a potent anti air threat in usmash and to a lesser extent nair, and arguably has one of the strongest and least punishable reflects in the game. With his reflect, Mario makes some of MM's best killing tools, fsmash and uair, much riskier to use, and MM can't even take advantage of the mind game aspect like he can against other reflect characters because Mario can just throw out capes whenever he wants without much worry of punishment.

The MU does get better for Mega Man with customs on, as he can then use Danger Wrap to achieve some level of parity in the air. And MM can gimp Mario pretty easily off stage with or without customs.

I'm still not sure if I would consider this MU lopsided, but it definitely feels like it's in Mario's favor, if only because he makes MM's projectile-based playstyle much riskier.

 

[JediLink]

Zelda is far, far from being alright in Melee. She's the second worst, only above Kirby. If you think she's bad in Smash 4, take anything in her kit that's remotely usable or has any kind of decent upside, destroy it, and you have Melee Zelda.

Nayru's Love? Weak and laggy, barely usable.
Din's Fire? Harder to actually hit someone with than Ganon's up tilt, with a fraction of the payoff. Almost always a mistake.
Nair, up smash and side smash? Wow, you'll get like one percent of damage before they fall out of it.
Up air? 14 frames of startup and a tiny hitbox, good luck hitting someone with that.
Down tilt? Just makes them roll around in place, does nothing other than that. Nice.
Dair meteor? Pathetic. Roy could probably survive it.

Her moveset is basically fair, bair, down smash, "I'm sick of this now, let me play a real character", and the rest is worthless. Her position on the tier list is completely overhyped. The Melee tier list in general is pretty bad and hasn't been updated in ages.

Smash 4 Zelda is pretty alright. Not good by any stretch of the imagination, but she has legitimate strengths for once. Playing doubles with her and getting tons of kills by just teleporting into people is mad fun.

 

[HeroMystic]

As a Mega Man main, I'd argue that Mega Man has a pretty bad MU against Mario.

MM has trouble dealing with air pressure, many of his best approaches are aerial, and obviously he relies heavily on projectiles.

Mario has strong air game and doesn't sweat the fact that MM shuts down his ground game (as Mario's ground game is already pretty poor), has a potent anti air threat in usmash and to a lesser extent nair, and arguably has one of the strongest and least punishable reflects in the game. With his reflect, Mario makes some of MM's best killing tools, fsmash and uair, much riskier to use, and MM can't even take advantage of the mind game aspect like he can against other reflect characters because Mario can just throw out capes whenever he wants without much worry of punishment.

The MU does get better for Mega Man with customs on, as he can then use Danger Wrap to achieve some level of parity in the air. And MM can gimp Mario pretty easily off stage with or without customs.

I'm still not sure if I would consider this MU lopsided, but it definitely feels like it's in Mario's favor, if only because he makes MM's projectile-based playstyle much riskier.

So far I've seen about two or so MM mains say it's in Mario's advantage, but I honestly don't see it yet. In theory, it should be in Mario's favor, but in practice not so much.

MM's best tool for spacing Mario is actually his Megabuster (or lemons, as everyone else calls it). It's essentially a much better version of Mario's fireballs, and they're spammable. They stop Mario in his tracks and he's forced to shield or roll in order to approach, with shielding being the better option. During this point, Megaman is free to keep space away from him, or he can mix it up and approach with his Megabuster and grab while Mario is shielding, or he can cross-up and B-air Mario.

Speaking of B-air, it's a solid kill move against Mario. This more or less forces Mario to either air dodge (which is super risky if read by Megaman), or fastfall and recover low, the latter being a better choice since SJP is very fast.

You are right in that Mario can disrupt MM's flow with Cape, rendering Metal Blade, his main spacing tool, to be worthless and F-Smash to be really risky, but MM has solid options to stop Mario approaching such as his Megabuster and retreating F-airs.

Even though Mario does a lot of damage very fast once he's in, I feel MM is capable of keeping him away long enough to even out the disadvantages he has against him. The MU is either 50:50 or 55:45 Mario.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, I'd lean more towards 55:45. I can only see 60:40 Mario if Megaman is unable to catch up in damage.

 

[Antonykun]

Hmm I mIght have to write something about. 3D vs Villager vutim on my phone right now.

All right I'm finally on my computer so I can write about Villager vs DDD. Do take note all DDDs I faced are from for glory so take it with the largest grain of salt you can find.

Well what is important to know in this MU isn't that Villager can zone DDD but that Villager is more powerful than DDD in both very close and very far away With her optimal ranges being Jab range and farther and DDD's F-air and B-air.
When she is far away she will do what most people think she does and camp with Lloyd and Slingshot, easily pinning down DDD for a lot of damage due to his size but DDD can jump away so high that he can avoid those shenanigans for a while and threaten with his F-air and B-air. I used to believe that Villager eats DDD because Slingshot reflects Gordo but the more i play with/against DDD the more I realize that Gordos are very situational and should really not be used against Villager.

Close range is very high risk/ high reward for Villager. Actually theres a misconception running around that Villager is primarily a camper and she immediately loses to ayone who is fast because Lloyd and tree take a while to happen,but her close range game is pretty strong too. She can string powerful "combos" mainly N-air into Lloyd and can seriously pressure everyone,especially heavies like DDD, as if she was those super rushdown "top tier", but by the same token she puts herself in risk of getting hit by a stray attack,especially dangerous against DDD. It is very important to choose when and where to get in on DDD. When she's upclose and in advantage, Villager is nightmare fuel for DDD.

That being said DDD needs one or two hits to even out any deficit Villager has done to the king so you need to be playing your hardest, one mess up and you'll be eating a hammer for massive damage.

This is one of my favorite matchups because of all the Dynamics that go on with it Villager ca zone DDD but not for long and he can jump way past her optimal ranges. I still would say Villager is at advantage but mostly because MU discussion assumes both players are playing their best.

 

[ChopperDave]

So far I've seen about two or so MM mains say it's in Mario's advantage, but I honestly don't see it yet. In theory, it should be in Mario's favor, but in practice not so much.

MM's best tool for spacing Mario is actually his Megabuster (or lemons, as everyone else calls it). It's essentially a much better version of Mario's fireballs, and they're spammable. They stop Mario in his tracks and he's forced to shield or roll in order to approach, with shielding being the better option. During this point, Megaman is free to keep space away from him, or he can mix it up and approach with his Megabuster and grab while Mario is shielding, or he can cross-up and B-air Mario.

Speaking of B-air, it's a solid kill move against Mario. This more or less forces Mario to either air dodge (which is super risky if read by Megaman), or fastfall and recover low, the latter being a better choice since SJP is very fast.

You are right in that Mario can disrupt MM's flow with Cape, rendering Metal Blade, his main spacing tool, to be worthless and F-Smash to be really risky, but MM has solid options to stop Mario approaching such as his Megabuster and retreating F-airs.

Even though Mario does a lot of damage very fast once he's in, I feel MM is capable of keeping him away long enough to even out the disadvantages he has against him. The MU is either 50:50 or 55:45 Mario.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, I'd lean more towards 55:45. I can only see 60:40 Mario if Megaman is unable to catch up in damage.

Yeah, I'd agree with this assessment. MM's saving grace in this matchup is the fact that he has a ton of disjoints and Mario doesn't, and he can use those to his advantage to keep Mario spaced. Cape really hurts his ability to get fsmash and uair kills so he really has to lean on bair (and at high percents, bthrow) to get KOs. Usmash can kill as a punish, and utilt and dsmash are hard reads only.

Like I said, it doesn't feel lopsidedly in Mario's favor, and it may still be a even matchup. But Mario seems to give MM more trouble than most characters.

 

[MachoCheeze]

On the topic of Mario, I think he has a slightly better MU against Pac-Man than we do against him. And there's one reason for that: Mario's Cape. His Cape makes us HAVE to approach as we can't just spam him with fruit or a hydrant until he screws up and makes a mistake. Pac is versatile, but with going against a character with a reflector and one with good frame data, it's super hard for us to get it. Its definitely not unwinnable, but its difficult. I'd say a good 7:3 in Mario's favor.

 

[David Viran]

OBVIOUSLY its to style. Fighting nakats falcon in a 20man weekly we both just try to style on each other as opposed to fighting at a 60+ tourney. Besides choco I have yet to see another ZSS do as much work, only talk like they play a perfect zss themselves(NOBODY HAS A PERFECT ZSS) which is kinda annoying. And I do dthrow - upair most of the time off a grab. Calling my ZSS play "getting there" is rather odd unless "getting there" means doing better than some ZSS users THEN YEA I GUESS SO lol.

Well you picked the right character to style with.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario may not have an advantage against any notable character but I don't see him losing terribly to anybody either. Sheik, Rosie, Wario, Fox, Diddy Kong and Pikachu are characters that Mario could potentially be even with and these matchups all actually matter.

 

[Nu~]

On the topic of Mario, I think he has a slightly better MU against Pac-Man than we do against him. And there's one reason for that: Mario's Cape. His Cape makes us HAVE to approach as we can't just spam him with fruit or a hydrant until he screws up and makes a mistake. Pac is versatile, but with going against a character with a reflector and one with good frame data, it's super hard for us to get it. Its definitely not unwinnable, but its difficult. I'd say a good 7:3 in Mario's favor.

I strongly disagree with this. Pac-man can still fake out mario's cape. I never have trouble fighting him in this match up as long as I play safe against him and don't try to camp him out. Our close range game is great enough to combat his (especially on the ground where we are superior to him in range.) and we still have the trampoline to mess up his approach and we gimp him HARD. His cape doesn't fully stop our projectile game, we just have to play smarter.

 

[HeroMystic]

Since this is a big topic for some reason, I'll lay down a dirty draft to what I think Mario's MUs are. Some are undecided since I have no idea how the MU goes.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:
Undecided: The rest.

You'd notice I am undecided against Sheik. That is mainly because I haven't played a solid Sheik main yet, but seen plenty of videos against them. It's either Even or Disadvantaged, but I can't make up my mind yet, though I'm leaning towards disadvantage due to the fact that Mario has no inherient advantages on the match-up and Sheik can get Mario off-stage pretty quickly off a grab and F-air chains. While Mario shouldn't be getting gimped that early, it does allow Sheik to get a solid advantage and Mario has to catch up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm surprised to see Doc as even but Ike as disadvantaged. I'm pretty sure it's the other way round. The Links are also even imo.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm surprised to see Doc as even but Ike as disadvantaged. I'm pretty sure it's the other way round. The Links are also even imo.

I find Doc to be even because Mario has no range advantage against him, and Doc's defense beats Mario's offense, especially when Doc's N-air and Tornado is taken into account. Doc's Up-B OOS is also pretty potent. He's essentially a lesser Luigi, only lacking in speed and recovery, which would be the only reason why I'd put Mario in an advantage.

Mario's advantage over Ike is only a slight one (55:45). Ike has better neutrals than Mario, and he can kill Mario earlier, but I feel once Mario gets in Ike's personal space, he can't do much about it, and Ike has trouble getting back on stage against Mario due to his specials and B-air.

I'm interested in knowing your reasoning over the Links. While I can see both of them being even (Link more than TL), I believe Mario's advantages in disrupting their neutral state forces them to play Mario's game.

 

[Nobie]

I find Doc to be even because Mario has no range advantage against him, and Doc's defense beats Mario's offense, especially when Doc's N-air and Tornado is taken into account. Doc's Up-B OOS is also pretty potent. He's essentially a lesser Luigi, only lacking in speed and recovery, which would be the only reason why I'd put Mario in an advantage.

Mario's advantage over Ike is only a slight one (55:45). Ike has better neutrals than Mario, and he can kill Mario earlier, but I feel once Mario gets in Ike's personal space, he can't do much about it, and Ike has trouble getting back on stage against Mario due to his specials and B-air.

I'm interested in knowing your reasoning over the Links. While I can see both of them being even (Link more than TL), I believe Mario's advantages in disrupting their neutral state forces them to play Mario's game.

This reminds me, Sakurai mentioned in an interview that, while he balanced all of the characters by having them face off against all of the other characters, he took a shortcut with the clone characters by mainly having them face off against their originals until the matchups felt roughly even. Obviously there are potential issues with this method of balancing, and it was clearly an expedited process, but do you think the clone matchups (Mario vs. Dr Mario, Marth vs. Lucina, Pit vs. Dark Pit) actually work out to be about 50:50?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pretty sure Ike wins the Mario MU. I don't see Mario easily getting into Ike's face consistently in the first place, not with Fair autocanceling now and his great Dtilt to cover his aerial landings as well. Its also not like Ike's air movement speed is terrible either (Mario is in a large group tied for 7th, Ike is in the next group down tied for 13th), meaning that Ike's Fair/Nair/Bair are probably going to beat out any aerial approaches Mario tries and can cover ground approaches fairly well as well. Just too many massive disjoints with little to no ending lag for Mario to get past frequently enough.

Once Mario finally manages to get inside ya its going to hurt, but we're eventually going to get out (and before kill range, which I feel is the important thing here). Ike can also return the same up close favour to Mario between the earlier game combos (and some combos that can lead into kill moves at kill percents, though it is a bit reliant on rage on our side) and great pummel rate later on.

Off stage both are gimping each other fairly easily via either giant sword with giant hitbox to the face or annoying cape to the face, Mario more so.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OBVIOUSLY its to style. Fighting nakats falcon in a 20man weekly we both just try to style on each other as opposed to fighting at a 60+ tourney. Besides choco I have yet to see another ZSS do as much work, only talk like they play a perfect zss themselves(NOBODY HAS A PERFECT ZSS) which is kinda annoying. And I do dthrow - upair most of the time off a grab. Calling my ZSS play "getting there" is rather odd unless "getting there" means doing better than some ZSS users THEN YEA I GUESS SO lol.

Don't take it personally, I'm obv not under any illusion about my own skill as a player or intending to compare myself to you.

But there's a difference between applying your fundamental skill to a character and making it work and playing a character optimally. You get better results than other ZSS players because you're a better player and have a better level of macro awareness and spacing and basic concepts, not because your ZSS is more optimized than theirs, 'cuz yo... it isn't. That's not a personal attack or anything or an assault on your skill level. You're getting the best results with her because there are few notable people even playing her and you're likely the best of them, but that doesn't mean there aren't things you could do differently. At this point in the game's life, "getting there" is what I'd call it yes

It's actually pretty constructive criticism and hardly tough at all.

ttytytytyt

 

[HeroMystic]

Niddo reminded me that Ike's Dtilt is now amazing, so I can see that swinging to Ike's favor in that case.

This reminds me, Sakurai mentioned in an interview that, while he balanced all of the characters by having them face off against all of the other characters, he took a shortcut with the clone characters by mainly having them face off against their originals until the matchups felt roughly even. Obviously there are potential issues with this method of balancing, and it was clearly an expedited process, but do you think the clone matchups (Mario vs. Dr Mario, Marth vs. Lucina, Pit vs. Dark Pit) actually work out to be about 50:50?

I don't see how Lucina can take on Marth in an even match since Marth gets much more reward from his spacing and kills much earlier. Everyone else though rounds to 50:50.

 

[mimgrim]

Well, I'm not comparing them, but I'm pointing out how people do compare them which is what my post was addressing. People do and will compare characters from past games, especially with SSB compared to say, Street Fighter which tends to remain consistent.

People still compare SSB4 Falco to Melee and Brawl Falco and play SSB4 Falco like Melee and/or Brawl Falco. That doesn't work, hell, it didn't work between Melee to Brawl, but people still do it anyways and complain about why SSB4 Falco "sucks", is "nerfed", and overall "trash". Same thing with Meta Knight despite people asking for nerfs so Brawl Meta Knight won't haunt them or Marth, Olimar, or even Bowser. Yes, people complain about SSB4 Bowser 'cause he's not Brawl and/or Melee Bowser. Why? I don't know, you ask them.

Even Fox, who remains fairly consistent throughout the series, cannot be played the same in each game. Try pulling 64 Fox stuff in Melee and you're going to get your tail handed back on a platter with spit on it. Still, people will compare him to past games and how his "glory days" in Melee are gone.

Scenario: A Captain Falcon main since 64. The Capt. is "great" in 64 and Melee, then Brawl comes out and as stuff gets analyzed, the player is disheartened from seeing the Capt. "fall". SSB4 is released, the Capt. is "better" and what does that mean to many? THE CAPT. IS BACK!

No he's not. No characters are "back" in that context. They're only "back" in terms of literally coming back like Dr. Mario or Mewtwo came back from Melee and who didn't show up in Brawl. Everyone else just stayed, was introduced, cut, or never came back except for who came back in spirit as .

Optional: sword analogy.

Spoiler

People will compare everything even if it doesn't make sense. People compared European swords to Japanese katanas. They're not the "same" weapon. Katanas are more slashing and stabbing weapons and in context to Japan, are really dangerous. European swords ended up leaning towards thrusting and stabbing and in context to Europe, are dangerous. Take a katana to medieval Europe and prepare to get killed since that sword will do little against metal armor and shields. Take a medieval sword and be prepared to be hacked to death because that sword is heavy and parrying with it is probably more difficult compared to a slender katana. In general, swords are not meant to clash together and considering the fragile, but sharp nature of katanas, it's going to be hell for them if they clash with a claymore accidental or not.

Katanas are like "glass cannons" and the workmanship was required considering the nature of the iron found in Japan. Europe got lucky so they didn't need dedicate that much work on one sword. Every blade has a purpose and the only way to compare them would be to fine the most similar blades like say, a cutlass and a saber instead of a freaking zweihander and a shortsword or a dao and a rapier - slashing vs. stabbing...

If everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it?

No matter how many times people compare characters from Melee to their Brawl, or even Smash 4 iteration, will not make it right. Melee has a completely different engine from Brawl or Smash 4. Melee characters would be broken in Brawl. And I don't mean broken as in too powerful, I mean broken in the sense that they wouldn't work because of the completely different engines.

But this is all going away from the original purpose of my reply to you. That Ganondorf is far from being amazing in Melee, Falcon not being all that close to amazing in Melee either, and Zelda being much worse then just alright in Melee. As that's just spreading mis-information. I really wouldn't mind the parallels being made to Melee if they weren't so blasted misinformed/inaccurate most of the time.

This reminds me, Sakurai mentioned in an interview that, while he balanced all of the characters by having them face off against all of the other characters, he took a shortcut with the clone characters by mainly having them face off against their originals until the matchups felt roughly even. Obviously there are potential issues with this method of balancing, and it was clearly an expedited process, but do you think the clone matchups (Mario vs. Dr Mario, Marth vs. Lucina, Pit vs. Dark Pit) actually work out to be about 50:50?

Pit vs. Dark Pit is just shy from being a mirror match really. So yea they even.

Have a hard time believing Marth vs. Lucina is anything but Marth's favor though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Going to swing in as a Doc main and say yes he's even with Mario.

Both function fairly optimally but they both function in that same bubble and within this bubble their traits make for a pretty even matchup. Doc's stronger defense vs. Mario's versatile offense is pretty even thanks to their range. Dr. Mario was even balanced according to this via interview so it makes sense that this matchup actually panned out to be even. Their strengths both counter each other's weaknesses in a way so you end up with a pretty honest match of Plumber vs. MD. Most of Doc's disadvantages weigh him down in other matchups (though not enough for him to not be viable, if you ask me. Below average for sure)

It's probably one of the cooler matchups of the game if you had to ask me.

I'm also in the same boat as say, Mario not losing to anyone major or much at all really. Outright winning isn't required, being able to go even against most of the game's most frequent characters though? I think Mario's MU spread is pretty solid. Mario is not this definitive super high tier strong character but rather I think he's an effective character where he's at, which is somewhere near the center (maybe up a little bit?). I do believe he requires a secondary for any of his bad MUs but I've felt this way about Mario in every game. I also think that he doesn't lose incredibly hard even in the situations where he DOES (unless it's like, maybe Marth? Can't think of anyone else really.)

On the subject of clone MUs the only one that isn't even is Lucina v. Marth where Marth wins slightly because his range is more rewarding. It's a matter of payoff at that point and Marth has much more of it. Pit vs. Dark Pit is literally a mirror match barring Ftilt, arrows, and Side-B, none of which really critically change much. On that note, I feel REALLY bad for Lucina : (

 

[Chuva]

Since this is a big topic for some reason, I'll lay down a dirty draft to what I think Mario's MUs are. Some are undecided since I have no idea how the MU goes.

Advantage:
Even:
Disadvantage:
Undecided: The rest.

You'd notice I am undecided against Sheik. That is mainly because I haven't played a solid Sheik main yet, but seen plenty of videos against them. It's either Even or Disadvantaged, but I can't make up my mind yet, though I'm leaning towards disadvantage due to the fact that Mario has no inherient advantages on the match-up and Sheik can get Mario off-stage pretty quickly off a grab and F-air chains. While Mario shouldn't be getting gimped that early, it does allow Sheik to get a solid advantage and Mario has to catch up.

Curious about why Mario vs Lucario is in Mario's advantage. That does sounds like one of these MUs where Lucario doesn't get destroyed in neutral since his poor range can actually compete. Mario kill moves are usually dependent on reads and Lucario has better rewards from reads (assuming high aura) and while Mario may have the frame data advantage his average damage output doesn't seems to be enough to pressure Lucario. Then again I don't play with Mario nor Lucario so I may be completely wrong.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Curious about why Mario vs Lucario is in Mario's advantage. That does sounds like one of these MUs where Lucario doesn't get destroyed in neutral since his poor range can actually compete. Mario kill moves are usually dependent on reads and Lucario has better rewards from reads (assuming high aura) and while Mario may have the frame data advantage his average damage output doesn't seems to be enough to pressure Lucario. Then again I don't play with Mario nor Lucario so I may be completely wrong.

Could have something to do with some of Lucario's strongest ranged options being easy to cape and reverse on him + removal of Vectoring hurting his survival ratio even vs. chars like Mario. Side-B can be caped and so can Neutral-B obviously, I don't think it's heavy advantage but I do think these reasons kind of give Mario an edge. Mario's damage isn't incredibly high but Lucario's low % is pretty sad and relying on high % reads against stuff like a Mario USmash is scary business if you ask me.

Again though, grain of salt. I'm not 100% positive but I think it's either even or Mario's favor.

 

[Ffamran]

If everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it?

No matter how many times people compare characters from Melee to their Brawl, or even Smash 4 iteration, will not make it right. Melee has a completely different engine from Brawl or Smash 4. Melee characters would be broken in Brawl. And I don't mean broken as in too powerful, I mean broken in the sense that they wouldn't work because of the completely different engines.

But this is all going away from the original purpose of my reply to you. That Ganondorf is far from being amazing in Melee, Falcon not being all that close to amazing in Melee either, and Zelda being much worse then just alright in Melee. As that's just spreading mis-information. I really wouldn't mind the parallels being made to Melee if they weren't so blasted misinformed/inaccurate most of the time.



Pit vs. Dark Pit is just shy from being a mirror match really. So yea they even.

Have a hard time believing Marth vs. Lucina is anything but Marth's favor though.

But I'm not comparing them; just mentioning that people compare them.

Also, I hate adjectives now. All right can be taken in many ways from being "good", " fine", "decent", etc. When I said Zelda was all right, I meant that she's just there; she just exists in Melee and her impact on the game is probably meaningless compared to Fox. Same goes for amazing which can be " good", "fantastic", " great", "super good", etc. At this point, it's like misusing " epic"...

Anyway, I would jump off a bridge whether or not everyone did it. Various reasons: survival, curiosity of what's below, or because I felt like it, but that's off-topic and crazy talk.

Mario was designed to be the jack of all trades, the all rounder, the balanced fighter, etc. So, it makes sense for him to not have a lot of advantages nor a lot of disadvantages. Mario will just perform well - I swear if anyone mentions that I'm using "well" wrong I will have myself banned for three and 5/7's years - against everyone. Everyone else are more specialized like Little Mac who's general design is to specialize in ground fights.

 

[Basherton]

I've played this game a lot IMO Sonic has become the smoothest and easiest character to use. Its mainly due to his quick damaging attacks and combos but almost no one gets away from his dash attack. Ness has combos that I feel go under looked but you damage your opponents like crazy with d-throw and b-throw and doing an arial or special right after. more people are trying ness for this very reason.

 

[thehard]

you missed the rest of the set apparently lolol

#namesearch

In case it wasn't obvious, Bloodcross beat ADHD in an extremely close final game. High quality entertainment.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Speaking of Link, how well would his Jump Attack work as an anti-air? I know it does well as a good edgeguard through good reads, but since Link jumps a bit before swinging, it might be a decent option to punish someone approaching from the air.

I haven't tried using his dash attack to punish people approaching from air, but it is good for punishing landings in general. The tippered hitbox is kinda janky and hard to get used to but once you got it down pat, hitting people in the air with bomb/boomerang to dash attack kills surprisingly fast.

you missed the rest of the set apparently lolol

#namesearch

It was a great set man. Thanks for reppin charizard. It takes a special kinda guy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

doublepost

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is such a copout response. Mario isn't all-around in this game, he's a speedster.

My ninja are you on the coco?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My ninja are you on the coco?

IIRC Mario has only 2 normals with startup over 10 (?) frames: fsmash and fair. The rest come out fast enough to be basically impossible to react to. Maybe usmash if you're superhuman? So his movement isn't speedster-tier, but his attack speed is.

Disclaimer: I'm not certain on the 10 frame number. But there's a threshold where anything faster is below human reaction time and Mario only has 2 moves slow enough to qualify.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Who beats Mario?

Almost the entire cast except like 5 or so characters beats Mario 55/45. Marth beats Mario 7/3. Most of the top tiers beat Mario about 6/4, except Yoshi and Rosalina.

The only reason Ally is winning anything with Mario is because he's actually just...way better than basically everyone. His raw fundamentals are effectively unmatched.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IIRC Mario has only 2 normals with startup over 10 (?) frames: fsmash and fair. The rest come out fast enough to be basically impossible to react to. Maybe usmash if you're superhuman? So his movement isn't speedster-tier, but his attack speed is.

Disclaimer: I'm not certain on the 10 frame number. But there's a threshold where anything faster is below human reaction time and Mario only has 2 moves slow enough to qualify.

Basically this. If you don't effectively make a strong read Mario is probably not going to trade with any of your ****. Especially not with a 2 frame jab. It's less his movement and more his attack speed which is tremendous.

 

[Smog Frog]

hold up, how does go even with ? he cant cape his recovery, sonic can rack up damage consistently on mario, and side/down b is too quick to shieldgrab without a read. is there something i'm missing?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Almost the entire cast except like 5 or so characters beats Mario 55/45. Marth beats Mario 7/3. Most of the top tiers beat Mario about 6/4, except Yoshi and Rosalina.

The only reason Ally is winning anything with Mario is because he's actually just...way better than basically everyone. His raw fundamentals are effectively unmatched.

You just put every player not named Ally on blast, all of that to say Mario sucks, despite many top players' not only thoughts on the character, but understanding of the game and skill in it.

Wouldn't it just be easier to let it go?

 

[meleebrawler]

hold up, how does go even with ? he cant cape his recovery, sonic can rack up damage consistently on mario, and side/down b is too quick to shieldgrab without a read. is there something i'm missing?

Fireballs.

Also most people jump when they hit spin dash
in an effort to get more damage which is easily punished
by Mario's swift Uairs. If they go for a Homing Attack mixup
it's not too hard to Usmash it, whether it's done preemptively
or after a spot dodge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Non top tier characters that probably beat Mario 6/4:

: Mario doesn't have an answer to the can, or Duck Hunt's effectively disjointed range aside from using FLUDD to force Duck Hunt off the ledge to reset neutral. He CAN edgeguard Duck Hunt if he can get him offstage, but Duck Hunt controls the stage way too well for Mario to deal with, especially since Cape doesn't really do anything against the projectiles.

: Watch Will vs Ally. But realistically, Mario's huge damage nerfs, and Donkey Kong's lack of them on top of DK actually having a usable D-air in this game make this matchup significantly more favorable for DK in this game.

: Lucina is inferior Marth, but beats Mario for the same reasons Marth does, just doesn't kill quite as fast overall. She has better mobility than Mario, better range, better damage, and has a very easy time juggling and edgeguarding him, while Mario has to play super respectfully against Counter and disjoints when trying to juggle Lucina.

: Luigi just literally does like 1.5x as much damage for similar moves that have slightly more range but aren't slower, and his 3 frame N-air prevents a lot of easy juggles for Mario. Oh actually his Fireball is way better than Mario's.

: Same as Luigi, except as a fastfaller he can block consecutive U-tilts if Mario tries D-throw U-tilt at 0, and he has Phantasm for a much better recovery and getting back to neutral. Also doesn't slide like Luigi and gets easy OOS punishes against Mario, and his F-smash outranges Mario's too.

Characters that Mario might go even with:



Characters that Mario might beat:

You just put every player not named Ally on blast, all of that to say Mario sucks, despite many top players' not only thoughts on the character, but understanding of the game and skill in it.

Wouldn't it just be easier to let it go?

And this reply is helpful how? Just watch Ally play. He literally is better than everyone, and then he runs into Will who actually knows the Mario matchup, and he gets bodied and switches to Shulk.

M2K definitely is nowhere nearly as good as Ally for instance. NAKAT is fairly close, but definitely threw a few times in the games he played. In almost all the games Ally wins, either his opponent does something like land next to Mario instead of go for the ledge/platform, or he gets insane F-smash reads to clutch out games where he's clearly coming from behind. He's not winning because he's playing Mario, he's winning because nobody spaces as well as he does.

I'd like to point out also that not only are most of the things I'm told about Mario in this game basically are things that existed in Brawl, Mario got nerfed. He does have fewer straight unwinnables because the top tier isn't Brawl Metaknight, but more of his matchups aren't in his favor in this game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm about to go on a limb and say that when a LOT of Top Players (not just 2 or 3) seem to agree that Mario is a stellar character, and I play with him and feel essentially the same way, who do I trust?

Do I trust those who net results with him consistently and/or know the metagame and have advanced it further than I?

I'm no master either but pointing out that Mario loses to like 5 or 6 characters doesn't really show me that he's bad? Like I'm sorry but he's always had a damn time with DK (this is pretty empirical and it's nothing new). Also Falco gets destroyed by U-Throw -> Followup of choice at low %. Not really hard to get creative vs. fastfallers.

EDIT : U-Throw -> Dair is a true combo vs. Falco at low %s. Also not hard to do at all.

 

[Smog Frog]

Fireballs.

Also most people jump when they hit spin dash
in an effort to get more damage which is easily punished
by Mario's swift Uairs. If they go for a Homing Attack mixup
it's not too hard to Usmash it, whether it's done preemptively
or after a spot dodge.

just a correction, but you only jump when you manage to connect spin dash. this leaves no opportunity for mario to uair. and how do fireballs help? sonic's in your face by the time you consider fireballs as an option.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Non top tier characters that beat Mario 6/4:

: Mario doesn't have an answer to the can, or Duck Hunt's effectively disjointed range aside from using FLUDD to force Duck Hunt off the ledge to reset neutral. He CAN edgeguard Duck Hunt if he can get him offstage, but Duck Hunt controls the stage way too well for Mario to deal with, especially since Cape doesn't really do anything against the projectiles.

: Watch Will vs Ally. But realistically, Mario's huge damage nerfs, and Donkey Kong's lack of them on top of DK actually having a usable D-air in this game make this matchup significantly more favorable for DK in this game.

: Lucina is inferior Marth, but beats Mario for the same reasons Marth does, just doesn't kill quite as fast overall. She has better mobility than Mario, better range, better damage, and has a very easy time juggling and edgeguarding him, while Mario has to play super respectfully against Counter and disjoints when trying to juggle Lucina.

: Luigi just literally does like 1.5x as much damage for similar moves that have slightly more range but aren't slower, and his 3 frame N-air prevents a lot of easy juggles for Mario.

: Same as Luigi, except as a fastfaller he can block consecutive U-tilts if Mario tries D-throw U-tilt at 0, and he has Phantasm for a much better recovery and getting back to neutral.

Characters that Mario might go even with:



Characters that Mario might beat:


And this reply is helpful how? Just watch Ally play. He literally is better than everyone, and then he runs into Will who actually knows the Mario matchup, and he gets bodied and switches to Shulk.

M2K definitely is nowhere nearly as good as Ally for instance. NAKAT is fairly close, but definitely threw a few times in the games he played. In almost all the games Ally wins, either his opponent does something like land next to Mario instead of go for the ledge/platform, or he gets insane F-smash reads to clutch out games where he's clearly coming from behind. He's not winning because he's playing Mario, he's winning because nobody spaces as well as he does.

I'd like to point out also that not only are most of the things I'm told about Mario in this game basically are things that existed in Brawl, Mario got nerfed. He does have fewer straight unwinnables because the top tier isn't Brawl Metaknight, but more of his matchups aren't in his favor in this game.

No dude I just mean like... Why are you throwing out the results? Why are you basing your opinion solely off of theory and not off of the actual application? That just makes no sense to me! You can sit here and write your stuff and read what others say about what will happen, but why does what does happen not matter? Yes, Ally is fantastic, but to chalk it up to his opponents being worse just strikes me the wrong way. There is a reason that someone so skilled like Ally picked Mario, it isn't an accident.

And @ TTTTTsd said, many top players are saying that Mario is quite good! To say that their opinions don't matter because they're not as good as Ally just forces me to either disagree with you or disregard you as that also extends out further to you.

But hell, I've been here since the thread started, so I know where this is going. I might as well just see myself out before things... Heat up.

But one last thing. Just because his kit itself is worse in some areas does not mean that he himself is worse. MUs are HUGE. Just look at something like Melee Falcon, and how bound he is by spacies.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

So his movement isn't speedster-tier

On the ground, maybe, but his air speed? 6th highest in the game, if looking at all characters in their vanilla versions (ie. no Monado Arts and whatnot).

 

[TTTTTsd]

For the record I don't condone throwing people under the bus and saying they're essentially not good when they got beat by Ally's Mario. He may or may not have outplayed them but that certainly doesn't condone that.

In fact it strikes me as really impolite to do that. And of course, that could be just me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not necessarily agreeing with A2 fully (I feel Mario is over hyped, but not to the extent he says), but just because a top level player or multiple top level players say something doesn't mean its correct. See: M2K claiming various characters beat MK back in Brawl. Heck, see many people including top players jumping on various "X beats MK!" bandwagons early on after MK took top spot on the tier list. Or the number of top level players who though Sonic was crap in Brawl until Espy and Mr.X (I think that was the other one?) took 5th and 6th at MLG.

Top level players are able to end up jumping a bandwagon too. Its easy to see a fellow top level player doing really well, reading/hearing a few things, and then deciding its completely true without looking into things further. Everyone is human, and humans naturally want to agree with people they consider to be their friends.