Character Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

I think a lot of people in this thread are throwing out the term "tournament viable" way too leniently. I'd say there'll be an absolute maximum of 20 (although likely 10-15) tournament viable characters once the metagame becomes more refined if no more balance patches are released. Being able to win locals doesn't make a character tournament viable, being able to get to top 8-16 in majors consistently does.

Melee has like 6-7 viable characters, arguably 2 (Fox and Falco), while Brawl has 10 at most, arguably 2 (MK and ICs). Smash is not famous for balance, and even though Smash 4 seems to be more balanced than any of its predecessors there are already some obvious problems that the devs don't seem to particularly care about. Just the way it is, and we can only hope some of this **** gets fixed eventually.

 

[ZHMT]

Even with Sings buffs its still an abysmal move. It still only hits people on the ground, has slow startup, and each of the 3 waves of sing only hit for 4 frames. You get a free aerial on Puff if you aren't mashing buttons vs the move. It's really realllly bad.

She's possibly the best glass cannon character in the game, that's why she's good.

 

[Locke 06]

I think a lot of people in this thread are throwing out the term "tournament viable" way too leniently. I'd say there'll be an absolute maximum of 20 (although likely 10-15) tournament viable characters once the metagame becomes more refined if no more balance patches are released. Being able to win locals doesn't make a character tournament viable, being able to get to top 8-16 in majors consistently does.

Who, out of this list, would you take out? I posted this not too long ago and I think most agreed on the point that they are all viable.
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The issue with making a cut like "top-16 consistently" is that with so many characters, not everyone can be top-16 consistently even if 10-25 are very close to being equal (Note: I'm not saying they are).

Viable, to me, means you can take them to a tournament and realistically expect to contend for the top spot playing that character with maybe a secondary for a select few MU's (Will's Sheik for example). Would you be surprised to see any of these characters place in the top 8 at a major?

The only characters I would be surprised to see in top 8 are peach and ROB due to how difficult Peach is to play/master and how few people play ROB. That says nothing about their potential.

Oh, and another note. We can speculate what the game is going to be like once the meta settles down, but what matters for tournament viability is right now.

 

[KevJames]

Who, out of this list, would you take out? I posted this not too long ago and I think most agreed on the point that they are all viable.
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The issue with making a cut like "top-16 consistently" is that with so many characters, not everyone can be top-16 consistently even if 10-25 are very close to being equal (Note: I'm not saying they are).

Viable, to me, means you can take them to a tournament and realistically expect to contend for the top spot playing that character with maybe a secondary for a select few MU's (Will's Sheik for example). Would you be surprised to see any of these characters place in the top 8 at a major?

The only characters I would be surprised to see in top 8 are peach and ROB due to how difficult Peach is to play/master and how few people play ROB. That says nothing about their potential.

Oh, and another note. We can speculate what the game is going to be like once the meta settles down, but what matters for tournament viability is right now.

From that list I would take out and . They are very balanced characters that don't excel at one thing, but are average/above average in everything. They don't really have favorable matches against the top tiers, but go even with mostly everyone. I just don't see the potential of these two solely contending for the top spot, but at most being used as secondaries (like what Nairo does). From the gameplay I've seen, nothing about these characters really impresses me, but they do hold their own.

 

[PK Gaming]

From that list I would take out and . They are very balanced characters that don't excel at one thing, but are average/above average in everything. They don't really have favorable matches against the top tiers, but go even with mostly everyone. I just don't see the potential of these two solely contending for the top spot, but at most being used as secondaries (like what Nairo does). From the gameplay I've seen, nothing about these characters really impresses me, but they do hold their own.

Pit and Dark Pit are certainly good enough to be tournament viable. I'd argue they're just barely hovering outside the "staple" high tiers.

If we're tightening the list, i'd probably cut Robin. Definitely the worst out of the supposed "tournament staples"

 

[|RK|]

• Warlock Punch is even more powerful when reversed, dealing 4% more damage and being able to KO under 20%. It also now has super armor during its start-up, though only if initiated on the ground, and it loses its armor when Ganondorf punches or if Ganondorf reverses it.

Under 20%?!

 

[Lavani]

Under 20%?!

 

[ZHMT]

From a game design standpoint, how does turning around making attacks like that stronger make any sense,? If anything it should make them weaker xD, I assume this also works with Falcon Punch?

 

[Trifroze]

Who, out of this list, would you take out? I posted this not too long ago and I think most agreed on the point that they are all viable.
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The issue with making a cut like "top-16 consistently" is that with so many characters, not everyone can be top-16 consistently even if 10-25 are very close to being equal (Note: I'm not saying they are).

Viable, to me, means you can take them to a tournament and realistically expect to contend for the top spot playing that character with maybe a secondary for a select few MU's (Will's Sheik for example). Would you be surprised to see any of these characters place in the top 8 at a major?

The only characters I would be surprised to see in top 8 are peach and ROB due to how difficult Peach is to play/master and how few people play ROB. That says nothing about their potential.

Oh, and another note. We can speculate what the game is going to be like once the meta settles down, but what matters for tournament viability is right now.

Viability right now matters very little considering people are experimenting with various characters and learning the game. I'll give you the fact that many characters are viable at the moment because of that, but that's a very transient state. The seemingly mild disadvantages in certain MUs and the little weaknesses you see in certain characters currently are going to be emphasized in the future, and in some of those cases the characters will lack the tools to work around those problems.

The problem with viability and secondaries is that if those few bad MUs are very common characters such as top tiers and you have to resort to using your secondary as much as your main, your main can't be called viable because you need a second character to complement them. I'd argue that anyone out of that list with several 4:6 or worse MUs versus Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, ZSS, Ness or Rosa without good MUs to complement it can eventually be considered unviable. 4:6 is very winnable, but if you have to be the considerably better player in several matchups to win, it's not your character being viable, it's you being a great player with a decent character.

I know Falcon has trouble with Pikachu, Ness and Rosalina, while Robin and DK struggle against some of the top tiers as well. Can't say for the rest you listed, I'd rather let people maining those characters speak because I lack the experience, but from what I've seen many aren't in a much better state.

 

[Ffamran]

From a game design standpoint, how does turning around making attacks like that stronger make any sense,? If anything it should make them weaker xD, I assume this also works with Falcon Punch?

It probably works on the same principle as charging attacks. In reality, charging attacks would make them weaker because of the lack of motion or loss momentum.

From a game design and fantasy standpoint, it's like gathering energy. When Ganondorf and Captain Falcon turn around, they're gathering more energy which leads to a stronger attack.

 

[|RK|]

Holy crap. A read with that could end a match before it ever begins.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who, out of this list, would you take out? I posted this not too long ago and I think most agreed on the point that they are all viable.
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DK and Robin are definitely unviable.

 

[TriTails]

In that list of 'viable' characters, I'd take out DK. His range is great, and packs a punch, but then again, his lackuster vertucal recovery, big frame, and slow attacks really holds him back.

I'd replace him with Link, he has similiar KO power and range, plus projectiles. Although, I'm not sure if Link is even viable. But maybe he is......

I dunno about Robin. He has great projectiles, has great melee combat, decent recovery, etc.... Though, he runs even slower than Ganondorf, but I don't really play Robin. So.....

 

[meleebrawler]

It probably works on the same principle as charging attacks. In reality, charging attacks would make them weaker because of the lack of motion or loss momentum.

From a game design and fantasy standpoint, it's like gathering energy. When Ganondorf and Captain Falcon turn around, they're gathering more energy which leads to a stronger attack.

The game also says that it is EVEN STRONGER
if you hit with it in mid-air...

...Which the game also admits is basically impossible to
pull off without a platform or some other jumping assistance.

 

[Smog Frog]

In that list of 'viable' characters, I'd take out DK. His range is great, and packs a punch, but then again, his lackuster vertucal recovery, big frame, and slow attacks really holds him back.

I'd replace him with Link, he has similiar KO power and range, plus projectiles. Although, I'm not sure if Link is even viable. But maybe he is......

I dunno about Robin. He has great projectiles, has great melee combat, decent recovery, etc.... Though, he runs even slower than Ganondorf, but I don't really play Robin. So.....

?slow? dtilt, uair, bair, nair, and upb are all quick attacks that he's able to use efficiently(dtilt in particular sets up some nasty frame traps)
his only truly "slow" attacks are Fair, fsmash, usmash, and dair.
edit: also link has similar attack speed.
edit2: also, i would try to fit custom ganon somewhere on the viable list. he's got so many options for better matchups(wdk vs projectile users and rosa, flame chain for rosa, dark fists as an oss option that kills at 70%, dark vault so you can go deep to edgeguard, flame wave is a killing command grab, and default side b and down b are viable.)

 

[the king of murder]

He's almost as unsafe as Ganon and doesn't hit as hard. Charizard loses trades with Ganondorf and doesn't want to try to challenge him directly. He does win offstage but doesn't rack up damage or get kills as easily. Flame Choke goes through his armor and abuses his bad tech roll. Both sides want to play defensively but it ultimately comes down to a guessing game that's slightly weighted in Ganon's favor.

I think all of your points are valid but I think this MU is even. I feel this MU is similar to Bowser, just that Bowser has better OOS options and that he is generally harder to get into his blindspot.

Zard has a Jab that is faster than everything Ganon has so Zard can rack up damage consistently and therefor has a low risk move he can just throw out(that is huge point in Zards favour). His Fair and Flamethrower are annoying to deal with, if spaced correctly(if not than Zard risks eating a Wizkick but we shouldn't assume that). Rock Smash and Flareblitz are ridiculous, as long as you are not predictable with it, not to mention his grab, which has a long range(why is Ganon the only powerhouse who has abysmal grab range :mad) and can actually kill at higher percent.

Ganon has more power, yes, but zard has more weight and a better recovery so I think Ganon kills Zard only slightly earlier, if anything.

Also @Pyr I am aware of Ganons buff but compared to others he is still just...so easily shut down. Even if he is faster, he is still slower than anyone else. He really needed a fast dash or that DACUS for his approach options. The reduced aerial landing lag might help him little but its not nearly enough. He is still slow, gimpable, you beat him by not approaching him and spacing correctly. He has NO matchup in his favor in my opinion. It's ridiculous how the likes of Zero Suit Samus or Shiek beat Ganon that way without any effort and nothing to fear.

Btw, I am not blaming my losses to the character but I want to point out the weakness that makes him a bottom tier character (better than brawl though). I have won a good amount of matches with Ganon against decent players and it's only because I saw these small openings which I feel just doesn't happen in an optimal top level game.

 

[Rockaphin]

Is Bowser still a threat in the meta? I remember when many were praising him, but honestly, I don't think he's all that great. He still seems very unsafe unless I'm missing something. Good jab, OoS, fast running speed, powerful, heavy, and super armor all sound like they would make a monster, but I guess he just sounds better on paper. He might be one of the more solid heavy weights out there. I'm not taking customs into account.

 

[the king of murder]

Bowser probably has a hard time against these speedy top tier like Shiek, ZSS or Sonic because they can punish just about anything and in Shieks case, harass your approaches with needles and he is easily juggled by them. That said unlike Ganon he has good mobility to get past their harassment not to mention the kill power he has can easily make Bowser scary for everyone because Bowser actually has means to get in.

Bowser just needs to be patient, bait a reaction out of your opponent with things like neutral-b and then punish hard. If I had to rank him, he would be a solid mid tier.

 

[mimgrim]

From that list I would take out and . They are very balanced characters that don't excel at one thing, but are average/above average in everything. They don't really have favorable matches against the top tiers, but go even with mostly everyone. I just don't see the potential of these two solely contending for the top spot, but at most being used as secondaries (like what Nairo does). From the gameplay I've seen, nothing about these characters really impresses me, but they do hold their own.

Being able to go even with just about everyone while only the other MUs being no more then slightly disadvantageous/advantageous is actually a really good quality to have and is usually good enough to be one of the tops. Marth in Brawl was much the same way.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Being able to go even with just about everyone while only the other MUs being no more then slightly disadvantageous/advantageous is actually a really good quality to have and is usually good enough to be one of the tops. Marth in Brawl was much the same way.

Speaking of Marth, how's he doing? I haven't much about him other than the general power creep of the Metagame was unkind to him

 

[Conda]

I've been having this feeling brewing up inside that Lucina may have something to offer. Marth is better, yes, but in optimal situations. And it looks like Marth isn't doing too hot, and his 'optimal situations' aren't really gelling with the metagame. Lucina's lack of necessity over these situations happening may make her more solid in this metagame, even though Marth is the stronger character.

I'm likely wrong. If Marth was doing well, then I'd have no reason to feel this. Many of you know that I've been a large supporter of the "play Marth, get off the Lucina bandwagon!" team, but playing Lucina may not be as pointless as I thought. Not sure I'm right, of course, but it's a gut reaction to what's going on.

 

[Locuan]

Numerically, Marth is better in most situations. Regarding the Lucina feeling you have, we would need more tournament results / time to determine if that would be the case. Could you describe the thoughts you have now that fortify your observations?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Who, out of this list, would you take out? I posted this not too long ago and I think most agreed on the point that they are all viable.
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The issue with making a cut like "top-16 consistently" is that with so many characters, not everyone can be top-16 consistently even if 10-25 are very close to being equal (Note: I'm not saying they are).

Viable, to me, means you can take them to a tournament and realistically expect to contend for the top spot playing that character with maybe a secondary for a select few MU's (Will's Sheik for example). Would you be surprised to see any of these characters place in the top 8 at a major?

The only characters I would be surprised to see in top 8 are peach and ROB due to how difficult Peach is to play/master and how few people play ROB. That says nothing about their potential.

Oh, and another note. We can speculate what the game is going to be like once the meta settles down, but what matters for tournament viability is right now.

is your list in order??? wario is def higher than some of the characters above him on that list. hes def a top 15 character maybe a top 10 once the meta sorts it self out. fox falcon plateuna sonic mario and shulk i think are all great characters but a bit over rated to be honest.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've been having this feeling brewing up inside that Lucina may have something to offer. Marth is better, yes, but in optimal situations. And it looks like Marth isn't doing too hot, and his 'optimal situations' aren't really gelling with the metagame. Lucina's lack of necessity over these situations happening may make her more solid in this metagame, even though Marth is the stronger character.

I'm likely wrong. If Marth was doing well, then I'd have no reason to feel this. Many of you know that I've been a large supporter of the "play Marth, get off the Lucina bandwagon!" team, but playing Lucina may not be as pointless as I thought. Not sure I'm right, of course, but it's a gut reaction to what's going on.

I feel the opposite. Lucina isn't just an inferior Marth; she's flat out bad in my eyes. The fact she's even less safe than Marth is unbelievably awful, and her consistently weaker aerial KO options are definitely problematic. Not that Marth is particularly great himself, but if Marth is "so-so" than Lucina is just outright bad.

 

[Antonykun]

I've been having this feeling brewing up inside that Lucina may have something to offer. Marth is better, yes, but in optimal situations. And it looks like Marth isn't doing too hot, and his 'optimal situations' aren't really gelling with the metagame. Lucina's lack of necessity over these situations happening may make her more solid in this metagame, even though Marth is the stronger character.

I'm likely wrong. If Marth was doing well, then I'd have no reason to feel this. Many of you know that I've been a large supporter of the "play Marth, get off the Lucina bandwagon!" team, but playing Lucina may not be as pointless as I thought. Not sure I'm right, of course, but it's a gut reaction to what's going on.

: "The future is not yet written!"

In all seriousness though I do believe that Marth is technically a better Lucina but until people get amazing at hitting others with tipper attacks Lucina is better.

 

[warionumbah2]

Every time I see Lucina in tournaments she loses then the player switches to someone else. Does anyone main Marth in the competitive scene?

 

[Quickhero]

Every time I see Lucina in tournaments she loses then the player switches to someone else. Does anyone main Marth in the competitive scene?

All I know is that Mr. e joined one tournament as Marth and rekt but I don't think he counts. I think he just needs to be figured out more (like a lot of characters actually) and I think Marth will be having some people for the scene. Maybe someday that will be me.

 

[mimgrim]

Speaking of Marth, how's he doing? I haven't much about him other than the general power creep of the Metagame was unkind to him

I think people are just still exaggerating him being bad. He still has really good mobility and still has good range over most of the cast. Granted he does play radically different from past games due to being more ground based now. I feel he still goes mostly evenish with most of the cast and that most players still haven’t gotten use to the new Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In that list of 'viable' characters, I'd take out DK. His range is great, and packs a punch, but then again, his lackuster vertucal recovery, big frame, and slow attacks really holds him back.

I'd replace him with Link, he has similiar KO power and range, plus projectiles. Although, I'm not sure if Link is even viable. But maybe he is......

I dunno about Robin. He has great projectiles, has great melee combat, decent recovery, etc.... Though, he runs even slower than Ganondorf, but I don't really play Robin. So.....

Link would easily be viable with better throws. I feel he literally gets killed by shield in this game because he basically has no way to threaten it because he has the worst throws in the game overall. It's a shame really, because his movepool is overall really good, but he's basically forced to rely on mostly Jab to get anywhere in neutral because his tilts are too slow to be reliable pokes, and his projectiles and Z-air while good require noticeable commitment to set up.

Then again, KirinBlaze can prove me wrong.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

I think all the characters are balanced quite nicely, I don't think anyone really stands out as being too OP to me, even diddy can be countered quite easily. I do wonder why everyone hates Rosalina though? I was a main of her since day 1 and she can be countered, too. Maybe I'm biased, who knows. I still like her.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Stop talking Lucina when we care for Marth/Shulk/Pit/Links.

I asked I believe two months ago about how people felt Marth & Pit stacked overall.
Man I still feel Marth isn't getting the credit he deserves. I dont even mean that in a "omg top 15" level of horse dookie. But you mention Marth and its like you are mentioning some sort of fatal illness only with the "encouraging" statement that someone has a more fatal illness etc.

I like Pit but if I put Marth next to him I wonder how Pit got this favor that Marth didn't. Is it the Nairo/Earth boost? Because frankly it feels like you can abuse the exact same **** on Pit that you will to Marth. Excusing pit having a projectile and a *laggy* reflector.

 

[RidleyDX]

Stop talking Lucina when we care for Marth/Shulk/Pit/Links.

I asked I believe two months ago about how people felt Marth & Pit stacked overall.
Man I still feel Marth isn't getting the credit he deserves. I dont even mean that in a "omg top 15" level of horse dookie. But you mention Marth and its like you are mentioning some sort of fatal illness only with the "encouraging" statement that someone has a more fatal illness etc.

I like Pit but if I put Marth next to him I wonder how Pit got this favor that Marth didn't. Is it the Nairo/Earth boost? Because frankly it feels like you can abuse the exact same **** on Pit that you will to Marth. Excusing pit having a projectile and a *laggy* reflector.

Probably should add on pit good grab game, d throw for racking damage, back throw throws them far, and his f throw is great. Nairo snags tons of kills with it. Marth throws on the other hand isn't as good.

 

[Esquire]

I like Pit but if I put Marth next to him I wonder how Pit got this favor that Marth didn't. Is it the Nairo/Earth boost? Because frankly it feels like you can abuse the exact same **** on Pit that you will to Marth. Excusing pit having a projectile and a *laggy* reflector.

I don't think Marth is bad at all (I had him at #25 in my rankings), but if we're comparing the roles of Pit and Marth, Pit is way better equipped at dealing with characters with projectiles, and I'm not really talking about just "having the Guardian Orbitars".

Marth's best match-ups tend to come against CQC characters, where his always present optimal reach can space out close-range assaults and weave in and out of approaches. However, Marth has struggles against characters like Villager and ROB, who can sit back and pretty much force predictable running lanes for Marth. Marth has no real answer for this, other than to play extremely patient and hope for a mistake/opening. Strong (re: good) projectiles are good against Marth.

Pit has tools to deal with these projectiles. Guardian Orbitars is one such tool, but as you pointed out, it's not fast and takes some timing practice. Upperdash Arm, however, is a second tool against projectiles, and is arguably way more valuable in certain match-ups. For example, Villager pretty much can't put up a Lloyd game whatsoever, as Upperdash Arm reflects Lloyd horizontally, goes through Lloyd, and gives Pit a free hit on Villager on top of the reflected Lloyd if Villager is close enough. Multiple jumps give Pit a way to stall out projectile games as well, something Marth wishes he had.

Pit also has a much better gimping game, something very valuable in this game. He can gimp people at safe distances with his projectile as well, which such security is a luxury not given to pretty much any other character. Dark Pit doesn't have as much gimping potential, though, which is one of the major reasons to use a character like Pit over Marth, who has greater upside. Hence why, IMO, there's clearly some characters that belong between Pit and Dark Pit when creating rankings.

Pit's increased range has been advertised ad nauseum in this thread, and rightfully so. It's much improved and gave him a new way to tackle specific threats. However, Pit's ability to use normals to space mid-game is not his defining feature. Pit has been, and will be, a tools-based character who has something in his quiver for pretty much every match-up in the game. Marth's match-ups are much more polarized, and although Marth has way more KO potential (making him a powerful pick), he's not in the same capacity as Pit. Pit can cater his playstyle to his opponent, and any opponent, to a major degree of change. Marth cannot.

 

[Ulevo]

DK and Robin are definitely unviable.

DK is definitely viable.

 

[Locke 06]

is your list in order??? wario is def higher than some of the characters above him on that list. hes def a top 15 character maybe a top 10 once the meta sorts it self out. fox falcon plateuna sonic mario and shulk i think are all great characters but a bit over rated to be honest.

No, I took a top-10 list from someone else who had 1-9 in order. And then I had added everyone else not in order.

I don't know where Wario stands. I think he's a fantastic set of moves and attributes (although I dislike his character a lot) and being heavy while short is a huge plus with how the top struggles to kill. I just don't see enough of him to know how good he is in practice and I struggle against him a lot.

Re Marth: I'm starting to see him as more of a trap character with the threat of tipper fsmash as the ultimate reward for the traps. Less about spacing, although it is incredibly important. His range and disjoint makes it so he can win any exchange if he guesses right/reacts accordingly (aerials lose to anti-air, ground approach lose to dtilt/ftilt, cross up loses to DB). I might be too in love with the traps, though. Grab release mind games are so fun.

Edit: even shielding loses to Marth in the form of shieldbreaker. Further enforcing the trap nature of Marth in this game.

 

[HeoandReo]

To be blunt, I feel that Marth's problem is that he's a character who seems to move at Brawl pace in a game that is much faster than Brawl. He has to play much more defensively this iteration not only to promote strong spacing, but because everyone is faster and he seems to take longer than the others to recover from his moves. Melee and Brawl Marth could sorta get away with rushdown because their speed matched according to each game, but playing Marth here feels like a disjoint compared to how everyone else and how much faster they are attack-wise. You kinda have to play Marth like a lighter Ganondorf who has a sword, making good reads and keeping your limitations in mind. I feel that speedy characters can also take advantage of Marth's endlag, waiting just outside of range and punishing him easier than most other members of the cast. The tipper's enormous power prevents him from being full on bad, but I don't feel like he can compete with the top half of the cast as easily as he used to. If his moves were just a little faster, I think he'd be just fine.

For Lucina, she has that same problem of moving at Brawl speed in addition to all the other issues we've mentioned (killpower, range, etc.) so welp. I don't think she's the worst in the game period, but she's pretty close to it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

To be blunt, I feel that Marth's problem is that he's a character who seems to move at Brawl pace in a game that is much faster than Brawl. He has to play much more defensively this iteration not only to promote strong spacing, but because everyone is faster and he seems to take longer than the others to recover from his moves. Melee and Brawl Marth could sorta get away with rushdown because their speed matched according to each game, but playing Marth here feels like a disjoint compared to how everyone else and how much faster they are attack-wise. You kinda have to play Marth like a lighter Ganondorf who has a sword, making good reads and keeping your limitations in mind. I feel that speedy characters can also take advantage of Marth's endlag, waiting just outside of range and punishing him easier than most other members of the cast. The tipper's enormous power prevents him from being full on bad, but I don't feel like he can compete with the top half of the cast as easily as he used to. If his moves were just a little faster, I think he'd be just fine.

For Lucina, she has that same problem of moving at Brawl speed in addition to all the other issues we've mentioned (killpower, range, etc.) so welp. I don't think she's the worst in the game period, but she's pretty close to it.

marth is more ground based this game you should not be throwing ariels out left an right.

 

[HeroMystic]

Marth's F-air is still really strong for spacing, it's just much more of a commitment.

 

[Shaya]

Marth had his aerial mobility switched with Ike (actually it may be worse than Brawl Ike's this game).
Walking is worse in this than it was in brawl due to better mobility specs in general and the fact that his grounded options are all laggier than Brawl.
He has practically no auto cancels, and this means that he's generally looking at 40-60 frames of lag for using staple parts of his moveset that a character like sheik, diddy, ness, pika, mario, luigi [i.e. every good character I could go on verbatim] are at 20-25 and suffering 4 frame landing lag, while Marth is 20+ landing or waiting 40 frames for an auto cancel in that scenario and many other scenarios.

Good-ish dash speed, but less so than all the mobility high/top tiers. He still has the longest dash to shield length caste in the game from Brawl, so his 18 frame dash to shield in a game where mobility is faster and practically no one has anything that bad (10-14 frames mostly) [those short few frames make significant difference, don't even dare try to undermine this].

The numbers are as they are.
Marth could have auto cancels (aerials) and brawl ending lag (all of his ground moves) so he could actually have a safe move on shield (at top level, not even well spaced dtilt is safe due to the extra lag on it this game, you can 50/50 spot dodge a dash grab enemy punish if not perfect shielded).
Marth could have his mobility caste maintained and hence be stronger in the air in variation, even with the laggier aerials. When I play Ike I see how Marth could've been with his aerials... still laggy, but at least he wouldn't feel like a rock.
Marth's 'poor' numbers from previous games (dash length, ending lag, etc) weren't compensated when Marth's strong numbers were kinda neutered.

Sakurai/Bandai have chosen to curtail his "top caste" numbers into the average territory and it's why he's not a good/great character. It isn't a coincidence, it isn't our players being bad or not exploring him more (not to say he's capped or at the ceiling of his meta, but his weaknesses are as they are, stark contrasts to Melee/Brawl that were not compensated by anything else), his great moves from Brawl are now good moves and his bad/average moves in Brawl are the same or worse due to worse number specs associated with him. The exceptions are Fsmash (nerfed in range, but the kill power is stupendous) and shield breaker (range and not nerfed frame data).

inb4 "pessimism stance, stop being so negative". It's just the truth. All the numbers revealed are there to tell me this truth.

I still love him to death, but he isn't tournament viable by any stretch. The best thing about him in tournament sets is rage up throw killing most of the cast by around 130%.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Marth had his aerial mobility switched with Ike (actually it may be worse than Brawl Ike's this game).
Walking is worse in this than it was in brawl due to better mobility specs in general and the fact that his grounded options are all laggier than Brawl.
He has practically no auto cancels, and this means that he's generally looking at 40-60 frames of lag for using staple parts of his moveset that a character like sheik, diddy, ness, pika, mario, luigi [i.e. every good character I could go on verbatim] are at 20-25 and suffering 4 frame landing lag, while Marth is 20+ landing or waiting 40 frames for an auto cancel in that scenario and many other scenarios.

Good-ish dash speed, but less so than all the mobility high/top tiers. He still has the longest dash to shield length caste in the game from Brawl, so his 18 frame dash to shield in a game where mobility is faster and practically no one has anything that bad (10-14 frames mostly) [those short few frames make significant difference, don't even dare try to undermine this].

The numbers are as they are.
Marth could have auto cancels/brawl ending lag so he could actually have a safe move on shield (at top level, not even well spaced dtilt is safe due to the extra lag on it this game, you can 50/50 spot dodge a dash grab enemy punish if not perfect shielded).
Marth could have his mobility caste maintained and hence be stronger in the air in variation, even with the laggier aerials. When I play Ike I see how Marth could've been with his aerials... still laggy, but at least he wouldn't feel like a rock.
Marth's 'poor' numbers from previous games (dash length, ending lag, etc) weren't compensated when Marth's strong numbers were kinda neutered.

Sakurai/Bandai have chosen to curtail his "top caste" numbers into the average territory and it's why he's not a good/great character. It isn't a coincidence, it isn't our players being bad or not exploring him more (not to say he's capped or at the ceiling of his meta, but his weaknesses are as they are, stark contrasts to Melee/Brawl that were not compensated by anything else), his great moves from Brawl are now good moves and his bad/average moves in Brawl are the same or worse due to worse number specs associated with him.

inb4 "pessimism stance, stop being so negative". It's just the truth. All the numbers revealed are there to tell me this truth.

Oh shaya you. Stop being such a negative nelly we all know that's just hyperbole.