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Now Shulk, Pit, Link. I remember your Toon Link talk.
I don't think you need to ask me that question, I feel I covered that implicitly enough
While I see where you're coming from, I actually think the biggest problem I see with Marth (and Lucina, for that matter) is not having a strong DA to command respect in midrange, (frame nerfs to DB, while probably necessary, make this weakness actually a problem). Which is of course why Dash Assault is obviously amazingly useful as it's been pointed out before.
We're forced to use dash attack too although it's an average move. Because other than fair we don't have any moves that actually hit close enough to the ground to hit grounded/flat opponents that miss techs. So when Marth fairs someone and they hit into the ground due to sakurai angle, not only does he have to wait about 40 frames first before he lands, lest he's waiting 60 frames, he only has dash attack as an option to follow it up close to the ground
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I've yet to figure it out exactly yet, but using it from the air I have been able to land and instantly use a forward smash (the chakram). I think there may be some odd way to cancel out the end lag.
I actually posted this in the Swordfighter Forum. I might post some of the things here as a follow up to the Matchup Thread.This is a more theoretical MU than my other MU discussion but its been bugging me lately so I'll post it here hoping for some discussion:
Startup-wise mostly (nothing below frame 5, according to... Shaya I believe), but we don't have real frame data on autocancels and the like, and from what I've played of him (and heard from others) his aren't good.
Unlike in Brawl I felt I had a frame trap type advantage, but here I am forced to take defensive measures after hitting shields with it majority of the time (maybe dolphin slash due to invincibility from frame 4) against any character with competitive range. You really cannot react to the response to it as well as one could in Brawl.
He can definitely go up to Wario he has very tiny limbs that are even shorter than half a Falchion
Mario and recently Luigi are both quite popular tournament picks with decent results. That's factual. If they are top 10 or not is totally debatable. Pikachu is still lacking representation but I bet every high level player agrees he has the potential to be a solid top 10 or even top 5 character. While characters that have a meaningful power gap above the others obviously tends to be the most popular in a competitive environment, it's not an exact rule.
You phrased this very very poorly.
I'm almost certain there where tierist without Marth top 10. Before Snake waz considered even. Marth had losing MU'S to two of the most played characters. Marth wsd invalidated by MK.
I've only seen great things from Sm4sh ROB.
No one said definitive nor stipulated things wouldn't change. I feel the need to call out posts like these because they (to me at least) are superfluous. Tournament picks vs 'theory list' right now are kinda congruent. We know Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, Olimar, Ness, Luigi, Fox, Falcon and Sonic do well consistently (multiple people over periods of time still) in NA/Western tournaments, people/Japan have ZSS (obviously) and Yoshi inclinations as well, Ally on Mario but many respect Mario's capabilities (he's seen a bit but not really star-front on streams like Luigi is at least) and Pikachu with ESAM winning everything he goes to locally + other pikachus starting to crop up (plus metric ton of 'top players' thinking top 3).
I brought him up recently in passing, but he's obviously a solid character. Kill throws, dthrow uair combos, solid projectiles that cover many things. But at the same time he's somewhat slow mobility wise, large frame making him easy to hit and poke and he doesn't have the CQC to keep up with top threats (he isn't the worst equipped though). I don't think he's a bottom-half character, but not a high tier (in my current perception of high tier).
I would also like to know about R.O.B. I think he's all around solid. Not fantastic, but solid. Great projectiles, killing U throw, D throw to u air [u air kills at around 80% on Falcon near the top on the last hit I think...] recovery is decent, not amazing though, not much of a killer though sans u air, u throw at high %, and bair is alright. Tilts are super fast, dash comboes into itself, and his side B was buffed quite a bit [but still not great]. Gets comboed hard though and prone to gimps. Also struggles to kill at times, but not as bad as others. I think he's upper Mid about.
Worth noting that Luigi can crawl under all ZSS lasers except a full charged one.
How so?
Yeah, I was watching it when I posted that, but I didn't want to come off as, "Oh! Duh... R.o...b beat Diddie, that means he high tier". It was a really interesting match since the thumbnail showed Olimar vs. R.O.B., so that was a "Yes" since it's not another ZZS, Luigi, Rosalina, Sheik, etc. match. R.O.B. seems like he has a lot of solid options which allows him to stand well against Diddy, but that said, it might have been another MU unfamiliarity so, hopefully, it doesn't become another "SNAKE BEATS META KNIGHT!" thing. Gyro is like "another" Banana Peel which forces people to approach, but instead of tripping, it deals damage and can cover ground by itself. It's like playing fire with fire.
Eh, Game & Watch outranges and out-maneuvers Lucario pretty significantly. His light weight means he has to play carefully against a high percent Lucario but Lucario can't throw out Aura Spheres or Force Palms carelessly, either.
Big deal. Like really. I can't see what makes her so terrifying with edgeguarding with that.
You probably misunderstood the intention behind what I've said. I've never said making lists were bad.
It's called feeling hopeless. It's that thing that happens to some who see a "high tier" and go "OH ****!" and lose despite how bad that opponent was with a "high tier". Choosing Sheik does not automatically mean a win button. She's safe and she has tools to rack up damage and kill you, but that never means you can't win. You prevent her from winning, you make sure she doesn't land a kill move, and you make sure she gets pressured.
Like, I don't know, play like a freaking boxer, weave around on the ground, make damn good reads, pile on damage as much as possible, and overwhelm the opponent? Rushing in like a brawler is going to get you killed at higher levels of play, but since it's easy to do that on inexperienced players and lower levels of play, people say he's OP. He's not. He's probably at the most disadvantaged since everyone's fighting him and learning how to gimp him. A good Little Mac is going to make you feel confused and like a fool.
