Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Oh yeah, Falcon is pretty good.
Marth/Lucina are probably even or close to with him

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lucina doesn't really bring anything to the table that fixes their problems, at least as far as we understand the two right now. She has little situational things that are better sometimes like her usmash, but she's still the clear loser overall.


Shaya already covered mobility, but his range isn't exactly exceptional in SSB4 either. He has a disjoint advantage over most of the cast. Off the top of my head his range is challenged or beaten by Shulk, Ike, ZSS, Palutena, Bowser, D3, Bowser Jr, DK, Ganondorf, Samus, Pit, Dark Pit, and Charizard. Then you have characters like Sheik, Mac, and Falcon that outmaneuver him (and may beat his range outright on select attacks), along with any projectiles he may have to fight through. I would describe his effective reach (mobility + range) as only slightly above average.

I'd just like to point out that while some of these characters out range Marth none of them really have his mobility or start up on moves. Some of these characters fastest aerial iis more than double Marth's fair and for some their fastest ground moves is 5 frames just like Marth. Then their pokes arent as fast or the samee speed as Marth's. Range is a nice traight to have but if your moves are slow it becomes a detriment imo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So, I take back that statement about Marth/Lucina not being good, ZeRo just rekt M2K as Lucina while M2K was playing Capt Falcon in his stream right now.

Marth/Lucina vs CF is a dead even match imo. Mostly due to CF's dead zone. He actually has one of Marth/Lucinas biggest issues.

 

[Emblem Lord]

double post

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Serious question: Who hasn't "rekt" M2K's X on stream with Y yet?

 

[Antonykun]

Because I'm a beefcake playing a bara dragon.

Is it all right if I talk about myself? Every fighting game I get I always want to play as the big beefcake but I end up hating their play style and end up switching to a very unmanly character. In BBCS2 I played Tager until i mained Platinum, In Brawl I played Snake/Ganon until Melee showed me the joys of Atlea (Marth), now I wanted to get back to playing Ganon but then Villager happened.

The only two exceptions for me are Melee/PM Ganon and Marvel 3 Haggar.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Is it all right if I talk about myself? Every fighting game I get I always want to play as the big beefcake but I end up hating their play style and end up switching to a very unmanly character. In BBCS2 I played Tager until i mained Platinum, In Brawl I played Snake/Ganon until Melee showed me the joys of Atlea (Marth), now I wanted to get back to playing Ganon but then Villager happened.

The only two exceptions for me are Melee/PM Ganon and Marvel 3 Haggar.

When playing the fatties, you have to remember that instead of going towards the opponent you're supposed to wait till your opponent comes to you. This is why grapplers tend to have specials revolving around tripping up the opponent and brutally punishing people that get too close,

 

[Xyro77]

I was the best USA Brawl Samus and when i heard sakurai on stage at the invitational Hype up Samus I was like "COULD THIS BE IT!?!?!?!?!!"


Yeah well I've been messing with Samus since day 1 of smash 4. Tournaments, fests, personal training time, wifi.....etc and I gotta tell you she is STILL not good even though she got buffs in certain areas.

1. Dtilt got faster but lost kill power.

2. Jab 1 has better range and is faster but can't combo into Jab 2 due to extremely low KnockBack. The game's "tip" section literally tells you to not use Jab 2.

3. Bombs explode if attacked but are also still on a timer so the foe can run through to punish me or trade with the bomb (it does low damage and almost no KnockBack) and win. Also, I think bombs leave you open for 40 frames or more.

4. Nair is better.

5. up+b kills.

6. Missile cancelling is gone and thus EVERYTHING associated with it is gone. This is a catastrophic loss.

7. Fair kills but lost damage output and gained massive landing lag.

8. New shield system prevents Samus's shield poking tools from shield poking until the shield is literally about to bust. The shield system also prevents characters from falling off of ledges/platforms while in shield.

9. Jab cancelling is gone. This was the only way Samus could have linked Jab into stuff.

10. Glide tossing is gone. Wtf do I do against diddy?

11. Utilt=guaranteed tech to punish opportunity for the enemy on Samus. It sucks.

12. If you know my style from brawl, you know that I relied heavily on ledge play. The new ledge mechanics have decimated Samus's options on the ledge. You cant re-tether for invincibility anymore and you can't grab the ledge more than once or else you will get punished for lack of invincibility. Also, Samus's ledge grab range has shrunk.

13. Zair. Lowered damage, lowered KnockBack, has landing lag (so I can't combo out of it anymore), doesn't go through stages too well anymore and sometimes won't even go through platforms. http://youtu.be/oabC4iZ6fQ8

14. Spike has a massive sour spot and a tiny sweet spot.

15. Dsmash hits the for horizontally with low KnockBack. This guarantees it will never kill.

16. Charge shot got better KnockBack.

17. Can't do 2 aerials out of a short hop.




I know lots of these "nerfs" are universal but unlike a lot of the cast, Samus NEEDS them in order to maintain even a low tier status.

I'm really hoping the buffs I mentioned as well as pivot tilt/jab/smash will help her reach at least lower mid tier. I'm extremely frustrated.

 

[FlareHabanero]

FYI, anytime Sakurai praises a specific character, it's going to be garbage.

 

[mimgrim]

10. Glide tossing is gone. Wtf do I do against diddy?

Do Jump Canceled Tosses give her a good slide?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Serious question: Who hasn't "rekt" M2K's X on stream with Y yet?

There's a few legitimately amazing players that we know of for Smash 4. M2K is not one of them.

@ Xyro77 I feel like Samus basically is hyperfocussed around the threat of a few really good moves, and aims to benefit from Rage and enemies lacking reliable KO setups on her because of her good aerial mobility and solid recovery + weight. I don't see her as being terrible, just one dimensional in this game which is in its own way a disappointing design. Entire game basically hinges on Charge Shot, F-tilt/D-tilt/Z-air pokes, Up-B, a few grabs here and there to maintain good positioning, and finding KO opportunities from edgeguarding and land trapping. And this can work against most characters given Charge Shot with rage can KO people at like 80%.

Also Z-air imo is actually better in this game because it potentially hits twice, which forces people to defend against it differently in this game because they can't get the same advantage from powershielding it.

The one thing that would guarantee this character a lot of competitive threat is a properly linking Jab, as I've argued before, given how hyperfocussed her game is on the threat of Charge Shot.

Also custom specials are a massive buff to the character. Mostly slow missiles, and an even stronger Up-B.

 

[Terotrous]

I highly suspect Samus got nerfed inbetween the invitational and the game's release. We already know Kirby did.

Anyway, I agree with almost all of what was posted by Xyro. I find Samus a very fun character to play since she's so unique, but I don't think she's very strong in this game. Hopefully she'll get some buffs when Mewtwo comes out. At the very least, I'd like to see hitbox improvements for USmash (Gunner has literally the exact same move and it links properly), DTilt's kill power restored, and jabs linking correctly.

 

[Conda]

Let's not forget what bomb does for her. And charge shot is rightfully defining for her - its that good. Even against reflectors, as its dangerous enough to bait reflectors.

I made a video about her recently, if some of you havent caught it yet - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ww-X2NJj4

 

[Asdioh]

I highly suspect Samus got nerfed inbetween the invitational and the game's release. We already know Kirby did.

Yes, I heard that at least her UpB's KO power got nerfed. And yes Kirby did get nerfed, though I don't know what was touched besides upthrow.

For my curiosity I just went and tested how much difference that one nerf made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mgKHFDRBrtE#t=378 it killed at 79% with 132 rage on the side platform. Honestly that was a bit OP, but I just tested it now and it doesn't kill until 120% on the same platform, with the same rage. And that's without DI, with DI she lives until 128%. And lives until 111% off the top platform with DI. So, a nerf that requires an extra 40% damage to kill, and 30% off the higher platform. It still sounds like a strong KO move, until you realize that 132% rage means a lot for Kirby, then you realize it's pretty weak. It requires 158% to kill ZSS off the side platform with 0 rage and no DI. She does die until 168% with DI. So the % required to get a kill went up by almost 50% (assuming competent DI, it's easy to DI a throw with such a long animation) with equal rage, and then another 40% without any rage. So yeah, the nerfs given out from the E3 invitational were pretty serious business.

Obviously nobody played Ness (is Bthrow intended to be that strong?) or Sheik at a highly competitive level at E3, or else the top tournament picks we see today would be a slightly different story, I'd be willing to bet.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Obviously nobody played Ness (is Bthrow intended to be that strong?) or Sheik at a highly competitive level at E3, or else the top tournament picks we see today would be a slightly different story, I'd be willing to bet.

Ness's back throw has always been lethal from what I remember, so in all likelihood yes.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I would be completely fine with Kirby UThrow killing at around 110% with normal amounts of rage. Kirby could really use a kill throw.

 

[meleebrawler]

Pretty sure anybody would love to have a killing throw.

 

[Asdioh]

Ness's back throw has always been lethal from what I remember, so in all likelihood yes.

Aye, but Rage makes a huge difference in this game, for that throw and Sonic's bthrow, as examples. It's always been intended to be an obviously strong kill throw, but traditionally, Kirby's upthrow has always been that way too. Not as strong as Ness's, and more situational than his, but still strong. I'd be willing to bet that stupid stages (Boxing Ring) and Rage were a significant factor in their balance decision... unfortunately.

Oh man, can you imagine if Zelda had gone and dominated that tournament? Imagine all the nerfs she could have gotten...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think Kirby's (and Meta Knight/Charizard) uthrow got nerfed due to the Wrecking Crew stage. If they killed at 110% or so on normal stages, imagine how they would work when they land on a platform maybe 10 feet from the upper blast line.

 

[Terotrous]

Pretty sure anybody would love to have a killing throw.

Of course, but I feel like it would specifically address some of Kirby's issues to have that as an additional kill option.

In general, I feel that anyone who has to work pretty hard to get in should get significant reward off a grab, either through guaranteed followups or kill throws. That's really just pretty standard fighting game design.

 

[meleebrawler]

Of course, but I feel like it would specifically address some of Kirby's issues to have that as an additional kill option.

I don't find Kirby wanting in terms of viable KO moves,
what he really struggles in is getting close to his
opponent.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't find Kirby wanting in terms of viable KO moves,
what he really struggles in is getting close to his
opponent.

Exactly, that's why he should get more reward if he does.

 

[meleebrawler]

Naw, what he really needs is COMBO throws.
While kill throws are never a bad thing to have,
Kirby has several options that are quite fast for the power
they pack (smashes, Bair, sometimes Uair), if not particularly
well-ranged. But then his grab isn't anything to write home
about in terms of range either...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pretty sure anybody would love to have a killing throw.

KO throws tbh either should be universal or shouldn't exist at all, if you ask me.

Sonic pretty blatantly doesn't need a KO throw. If he gets just one nerf, he should lose the B-throw KO option, because it's frankly excessive when the rest of his grab game is already ridiculous.

In the case of Ness, I sorta understand why by design he needs a strong KO throw, because it's supposed to make up for the fact he legitimately has terrible ground options and mediocre mobility. Though in this game, his KO throw is insane when you factor how relatively little reward most characters get from grabs, and how he has certain tools that polarize his matchups like PK Thunder and PSI Magnet, which I believe is actually his real balance problem.

ROB is the one other character who I'd easily argue also needs a KO throw pretty badly when he gets his *** handed to him in the negative state and is mostly really poor at dealing damage quickly and killing people early.

I don't think Kirby actually has problems getting KOs (Down-B/D-air edgeguard, U-smash/B-air oos)...just as others have stated, his approach is terrible, so he doesn't do well in neutral. Really what he needs is Inhale to actually work so he has actual options in footsies. I guess there's Jumping Inhale custom, but he does sacrifice damage for it.

Then there's Link, who probably would have nearly all his problems solved with a KO throw, given his big problem is his grab is just extremely non-threatening. But realistically the more logical buff to him would be increasing his throw damage/followup potential.

 

[Terotrous]

Naw, what he really needs is COMBO throws.
While kill throws are never a bad thing to have,
Kirby has several options that are quite fast for the power
they pack (smashes, Bair, sometimes Uair), if not particularly
well-ranged. But then his grab isn't anything to write home
about in terms of range either...

Combo throws could also be fine. I think his grab game needs something at any rate.

 

[Antonykun]

So umm Dapuffster decided it would be fun to use 1111 Swordfighter in a tournament. I am left completely mindblown.
http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/607999689 Time - 24:02.

 

[Asdioh]

Grabs are a huge, huge part of Kirby's game, since literally all of his moves are unsafe on shield. For that reason, I would definitely appreciate combo throws, and his KO throws are a bit weak, but they're still usable. I very often get kills with upthrow/bthrow (bthrow has never been a kill throw until this game, not counting 64)

Also I agree with A2ZOMG's post, especially the part about Link. It's pretty sad to see him fishing for a kill, especially when Toon Link randomly has a very strong backthrow KO. I also agree that if I could have one buff to Kirby, it would be to make Inhale actually usable. Currently it is basically less safe than a smash attack, or a tether grab. Being the third lightest character in the game, he can't really afford to take the risk of Inhale very much in tournament matches, which is unfortunate, considering how drastically certain copy powers help matchups.


Speaking of Kirby though, have opinions improved on him at all? MikeKirby getting 2nd at a 50 person Apex qualifier tourney using only Kirby, and taking Grand Finals to set 2, is pretty impressive, no? I've been getting top 3 pretty often at my locals too, although they are pretty small. I know some other Kirbys have been doing well too. There just aren't a lot of players, but they generally seem to do well when they're dedicated mains...

 

[BJN39]

Oh man, can you imagine if Zelda had gone and dominated that tournament? Imagine all the nerfs she could have gotten...

Have you SEEN the nerfs she's gotten? LOL. It's hilarious, in the saddest way possible.

Just about every move got nerfs. Upon examination, the Zelda boards concluded that Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash, Usmash, FAir, BAir, UAir, NAir, Din's Fire, and to an extent Utilt were all NERFED in usefulness.

Inversely, Dthrow (The angle and followup potential. Damage is actually worse.) Farore's Wind, and DAir are the only actually buffed moves statistically. Also noting Phantom Slash as a buff to solo Zelda.

Also, imagine Zelda dominating a tournament? Impossible, lol. Being used as a tertiary for 1-2 battles in a tourney and the player winning the tourney is possible...

 

[san.]

So umm Dapuffster decided it would be fun to use 1111 Swordfighter in a tournament. I am left completely mindblown.
http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/607999689 Time - 24:02.

Was expecting dair, was not disappointed.

 

[Big-Cat]

When playing the fatties, you have to remember that instead of going towards the opponent you're supposed to wait till your opponent comes to you. This is why grapplers tend to have specials revolving around tripping up the opponent and brutally punishing people that get too close,

It's really more of a bit of both going in and staying out. Against someone like Pac-Man, Bowser wants to stay within a certain range of him. If he stays away waiting for Pac to come, it ain't happening. It's more of being just within the right range and making them respect your power and reads.

12. If you know my style from brawl, you know that I relied heavily on ledge play. The new ledge mechanics have decimated Samus's options on the ledge. You cant re-tether for invincibility anymore and you can't grab the ledge more than once or else you will get punished for lack of invincibility. Also, Samus's ledge grab range has shrunk.

And here I think is the key issue. I'm not talking about ledge play, but that you're wanting to do old tactics. I'm going to sound like a broken record saying this. You have to adapt and approach Samus differently.

I don't play my Fox like one would in Melee for example. It's more balanced between ground and aerial with a lot of footsies.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Have you SEEN the nerfs she's gotten? LOL. It's hilarious, in the saddest way possible.

Just about every move got nerfs. Upon examination, the Zelda boards concluded that Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash, Usmash, FAir, BAir, UAir, NAir, Din's Fire, and to an extent Utilt were all NERFED in usefulness.

Inversely, Dthrow (The angle and followup potential. Damage is actually worse.) Farore's Wind, and DAir are the only actually buffed moves statistically. Also noting Phantom Slash as a buff to solo Zelda.

Also, imagine Zelda dominating a tournament? Impossible, lol. Being used as a tertiary for 1-2 battles in a tourney and the player winning the tourney is possible...

Also important to note that Zelda's standing grab is 2 frames faster. That buff is HUGE. Sure, her grab is still on the slow side at 10 frames, but she does have good standing grab range, which makes her shieldgrab pretty good overall.

D-tilt I'd argue is overall better by being less random, meaning you only just need to know percents for its followups. U-tilt no longer is a kill move, but actually is okay as an anti-air due to frame buffs. The nerfs to U-smash and D-smash suck a lot, but F-air/B-air/U-air all basically work about the same as in Brawl, minus there's slightly better setups into them (D-throw U-air is a lot of damage), and most characters lost SH double aerial spacing options anyway.

Gonna also remind people...Mario was probably one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4 aside from Marth. Mario literally does not have any moves that are better in Smash 4 except D-throw, F-air, and FLUDD. Everything else he has is explicitly worse, including his combo game and recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

Also important to note that Zelda's standing grab is 2 frames faster. That buff is HUGE. Sure, her grab is still on the slow side at 10 frames, but she does have good standing grab range, which makes her shieldgrab pretty good overall.

D-tilt I'd argue is overall better by being less random, meaning you only just need to know percents for its followups. U-tilt no longer is a kill move, but actually is okay as an anti-air due to frame buffs. The nerfs to U-smash and D-smash suck a lot, but F-air/B-air/U-air all basically work about the same as in Brawl, minus there's slightly better setups into them (D-throw U-air is a lot of damage), and most characters lost SH double aerial spacing options anyway.

Gonna also remind people...Mario was probably one of the most nerfed characters from Brawl to Smash 4 aside from Marth. Mario literally does not have any moves that are better in Smash 4 except D-throw, F-air, and FLUDD. Everything else he has is explicitly worse, including his combo game and recovery.

We should also take into accounts of other characters getting nerfs/buffs along with SSB4 having a different engine that seems to benefit everyone rather than just a select few if you're going to compare how Mario's changes affect him gameplay-wise versus Zelda's changes and how it affects her gameplay-wise.

 

[Chuva]

Sometimes I feel what Zelda needs the most is a spacing-oriented Fair or Bair. Having both Fair and Bair being "Knees" is just limiting the character's already lackluster aerial pressure and approaches, mostly because of the moves' ending lag. Give her something like Falcon's Bair and now people will need to respect her a little more at mid-range.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's changes means most characters in this game beat him about 55/45, even though he technically has barely enough to work in neutral. He just rarely gets to kill people before they can kill him because his damage output is terrible, he still has unreliable KO setups, and gets bodied in juggle/offstage situations.

He was an underrated, mostly complete character in Brawl that was invalidated by a broken top tier. There isn't a broken top tier in this game, but I definitely don't think Mario actually wins that many matchups. I've argued before, Zelda should beat him in this game given it's harder for Mario to set up KOs against her, while she can still wall him out and kill him a lot earlier than the other way around.

 

[Ffamran]

Sometimes I feel what Zelda needs the most is a spacing-oriented Fair or Bair. Having both Fair and Bair being "Knees" is just limiting the character's already lackluster aerial pressure and approaches, mostly because of the moves' ending lag. Give her something like Falcon's Bair and now people will need to respect her a little more at mid-range.

I really want a back hand slap as a Bair or Fair now for Zelda. I don't know why, but I want a back hand slap as a move for Zelda. It'd be sassy and funny. It's like, "*****, did I tell you could look at me?"

Peach has her slaps, Marth's hair flows fabulously, and Ganondorf's really flexible. So, why not add some sass to Zelda?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda imo mostly needs QoL fixes. Slightly better hitboxes for hitting the really short crouchers on a few moves and a little more consistency on F-smash mostly.

As for bigger changes, shield damage on Dins and 4-5 frames off the lag of F-air/F-tilt probably would be the right direction, but I don't think those are as important as the above things.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I really want a back hand slap as a Bair or Fair now for Zelda. I don't know why, but I want a back hand slap as a move for Zelda. It'd be sassy and funny. It's like, "*****, did I tell you could look at me?"

Peach has her slaps, Marth's hair flows fabulously, and Ganondorf's really flexible. So, why not add some sass to Zelda?

dunno if i would call that sass more like umm crazy?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Ike MUs:

Against the top/common characters, the only one I see being outside of the 4:6/6:4 range is maybe Sheik. Sheik I'd want to see played out more at a top level before trying to make that opinion. Even outside of that scope I don't think Ike loses to anyone more than 4:6, might have a handful of matches with an advantage greater than 6:4 (G&W maybe? Lots of nerfs on G&W's side, the bucket break one being a potential killer in this MU. Maybe Dr.Mario as Ike probably slightly edges out Mario in their MU, and it was the movement speed that helped Mario a lot and I don't think Dr.Mario's small strength increase is enough to counter balance that?).

The only only top/common character MU number I can attempt to give based off of offline tournaments is Sonic, I've faced and beaten a few of them. I'd say probably 55:45, thank goodness for patch 1.0.4.

 

[Big-Cat]

We should also take into accounts of other characters getting nerfs/buffs along with SSB4 having a different engine that seems to benefit everyone rather than just a select few if you're going to compare how Mario's changes affect him gameplay-wise versus Zelda's changes and how it affects her gameplay-wise.

This is the key thing we have to consider. Something that may be OP in one engine may be fine in another.

Sometimes I feel what Zelda needs the most is a spacing-oriented Fair or Bair. Having both Fair and Bair being "Knees" is just limiting the character's already lackluster aerial pressure and approaches, mostly because of the moves' ending lag. Give her something like Falcon's Bair and now people will need to respect her a little more at mid-range.

That's assuming she needs that for mid-range. She's not an aggressive character, but a very defensive one. There's a reason why her Up B is now a kill move. There was also a reason why she got Phantom Slash.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Grabs are a huge, huge part of Kirby's game, since literally all of his moves are unsafe on shield. For that reason, I would definitely appreciate combo throws, and his KO throws are a bit weak, but they're still usable. I very often get kills with upthrow/bthrow (bthrow has never been a kill throw until this game, not counting 64)

Tilts are a bigger part of his game as I see it. Kirbys shtick is he has low lag on his aerials as a whole, and his tilts+ Jab have competitive start-up. His grab lets him condition them to take less value in their shield, but with Kirbys start-ups he can just say **** it and box you out with normals then aim for Stone/D-air/F-air/B-air control off-stage. Kirby doesn't from my perspective have a problem with anyone *approaching him* because he has the tools to box in CQC. He's one of the few characters in this game that really do aerial footsies which again he's cool with because he has low lag on aerials.

Speaking of Kirby though, have opinions improved on him at all? MikeKirby getting 2nd at a 50 person Apex qualifier tourney using only Kirby, and taking Grand Finals to set 2, is pretty impressive, no? I've been getting top 3 pretty often at my locals too, although they are pretty small. I know some other Kirbys have been doing well too. There just aren't a lot of players, but they generally seem to do well when they're dedicated mains...

I've followed Mike Kirby for a couple of weeks. His play feels like it reverberates what I've said before. Kirbys problem isn't the perceived top tiers. That area outside of Rosalina is filled with people who play a rushdown game that Kirby is not uncomfortable with at all because that negates his approach problems. Additionally the range difference between him and the *top* vs him and some middle weight is often different. Even still Kirby doesn't really fear Rosa either, except for an Up-air. Hell if she doesn't Dtilt an Fsmash Kirby crouches under the thing and Luma is 1 back-air to being irrelevant.

I found it funny that time I saw him put as I believe it was top 6 worst characters on a list? Because I enjoy all opinions on the puff, I've seen him in 3 different places. Low Mid, Low bottom, and bottom of bottom. Then again if you note Im not saying much at all about where Shulk is right now either. It's interesting to see everyones take and I feel if the meta is going to be Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, ZSS. Kirby will be fine. Even with the **** inhale, the U-air that everyone hits through because of his hurtbox, and no grab follow ups. Those problems I feel are more relevant against *other* characters.