Character Competitive Impressions

[Swamp Sensei]

Meteor Ejection doesn't self-link for a billion damage, but it does have Super Armor on startup.

Side-b 2 is probably worth taking in his worst matchups, where it doesn't normally function as a combo starter. (Exactly as you say)



As an anti-juggle? Huh?

As a Charizard main, Flamethrower can indeed work as an anti juggle. But it's super reliant on positioning. But when it does work, itworks wonders.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I wouldn't cover my landing with flamethrower tbh, you're probably better off using rock smash or trying to bait something using one of your jumps.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That's another thing: Sometimes jumping out of a situation is better than breaking out of it. Like @ KuroganeHammer said, there's the baiting aspect, where you can get your opponent to whiff/overcommit to something and you're free to counteract it. This leads to a multi-faceted situation: you may get better positioning, you may get to counterattack (sometimes with stuff you could only get away with in a more advantaged state), and/or you just get out of a bad predicament. As D3, for example, I like popping out of strings with one of my jumps to descend with an angled (sometimes fastfalled) bair. If at high enough percentages, I'm either KOing them or knocking them off the stage after the exchange; if at lower percentages, at the very least I can get them off of me and reset the situation.

Like anything else, though, there's an inverted scenario: The really good players can read the bait and catch you in a bad spot, especially if they retained their own jump(s).

Smooth Criminal

 

[dragontamer]

That's another thing: Sometimes jumping out of a situation is better than breaking out of it.

Oh you guys and your characters with multiple double-jumps... Most characters have one-chance to escape. The single-double jump opportunity.

I'd argue that most of the time, jumping out of the situation is the best option. Double-jump fast-fall up-smash / up-tilt works wonders almost universally.

But unless you're Charizard, DDD, Kirby, Jiggly, Pit, or Metaknight... you get one shot at your double-jump escape. Otherwise, your opponent basically captures free-reign on juggling you... or converting your perilous situation into a landing checkmate. For example... fully charged Samus Shots while you land without any double-jumps remaining. You can't air dodge away, due to landing-lag.

Using that double-jump is a very strong option. But is also puts you in one of the most dangerous situations in the game. So use it wisely.

 

[Shaya]

why

would you uptilt out of perfect pivot

like, hers is better than marths

use it for something useful

What is remotely better about it than Marth's other than the damage difference? Unless you're referring to the perfect pivot itself, in which case, no, they're the same.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What is remotely better about it than Marth's other than the damage difference? Unless you're referring to the perfect pivot itself, in which case, no, they're the same.

Yeah I blame reddit and their misinformation spreading

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can hardly believe how much worse Lucario has gotten through the removal of VI. Before the patch he was rightfully considered to be one of the most unpredictable threats to the metagame. Now that there are no powerful tools to increase a character's suvivability anymore Lucario hardly ever reaches the amount of percent he needs to make up for his downright awful neutral game.

RIP Lucario

 

[Shaya]

Quick question, Shaya; how is Falco's side-b more punishable than Fox's? I don't doubt you and I don't really use either character but I always assumed they basically had the same specs in terms of speed/recovery.

Falco only has a hitbox for 2/3rds of the move, it's hardly a mix up to get off the ledge and people will get better at destroying him recovering with it too over time.

 

[thehard]

I can hardly believe how much worse Lucario has gotten through the removal of VI. Before the patch he was rightfully considered to be one of the most unpredictable threats to the metagame. Now that there are no powerful tools to increase a character's suvivability anymore Lucario hardly ever reaches the amount of percent he needs to make up for his downright awful neutral game.

RIP Lucario

But his design is so stupid!!! /s

 

[Ffamran]

Falco only has a hitbox for 2/3rds of the move, it's hardly a mix up to get off the ledge and people will get better at destroying him recovering with it too over time.

I don't understand how this game/franchise is programmed at times... Falco Phantasm not having a full hit box like in past games, Samus's Utilt only meteors on the ground, Samus not having access to any of her other beams and not being able to "crawl" with her Morph Ball; Flame Choke is techable for some reason despite Ganondorf's evil power, Lucina and Dark Pit being clones, Toon Link being a clone when he could use other Zelda gear, Zelda having three sweet-spot aerials, a magic aerial, and one regular aerial; and Waluigi not being playable, especially the Wah-man not being playable.

 

[Yonder]

I guess we've found that Samus is secretly a speed tyrant in disguise for attack speed...

So I'm curious now, who is the king of frames then? The overall fastest attacker in the game based on frame data?

 

[dragontamer]

I can hardly believe how much worse Lucario has gotten through the removal of VI. Before the patch he was rightfully considered to be one of the most unpredictable threats to the metagame. Now that there are no powerful tools to increase a character's suvivability anymore Lucario hardly ever reaches the amount of percent he needs to make up for his downright awful neutral game.

RIP Lucario

Depending on how the top tiers evolve out, Lucario still has a good chance. Shiek for example seems to have an absolutely terrible matchup vs Lucario. Outside of a few unsafe moves (fsmash, up-b, fish), Shiek basically can't KO Luke till 150%+.

Even at moderate HP (~90% taken), Lucario's Force Palm KOs opponents at a downright insane percent. Something like ~80% or so, (with KOs as low as 60% if you get Luke up to max aura). Shield is the strongest defensive option in the game.

Another consideration: Luke's attacks are kind of hard to learn to use. Jab1 is a decent anti-air, but Jab2 and Jab3 are almost worthless. Its hard to combo into Jab2 and Jab3. Nonetheless, I have a feeling that Jab1 still sets up an advantage for Lucario... players just need to learn not to use the Jab2 or Jab3. Side-B laser is good at zoning with high aura, and his Up-B recovery is amongst the best in the game. Its very hard to gimp a Lucario. For what its worth, his counter also KOs your jabs at like 80% as well.

Strong, Safe Aerials with high KB hurt Luke pretty hard (Diddy, Robin). But I think that Luke plays a mean ground game, especially since he's constantly threatening an unblockable KO from centerstage.

I guess we've found that Samus is secretly a speed tyrant in disguise for attack speed...

So I'm curious now, who is the king of frames then? The overall fastest attacker in the game based on frame data?

On _startup_ frame data, it seems to be Mario / Dr. Mario.

There's no cooldown framedata yet. I've got a feeling that Samus has great startup frames, but poor / average cooldown frames.

 

[Yonder]

Depending on how the top tiers evolve out, Lucario still has a good chance. Shiek for example seems to have an absolutely terrible matchup vs Lucario. Outside of a few unsafe moves (fsmash, up-b, fish), Shiek basically can't KO Luke till 150%+.

Even at moderate HP (~90% taken), Lucario's Force Palm KOs opponents at a downright insane percent. Something like ~80% or so, (with KOs as low as 60% if you get Luke up to max aura). Shield is the strongest defensive option in the game.

Another consideration: Luke's attacks are kind of hard to learn to use. Jab1 is a decent anti-air, but Jab2 and Jab3 are almost worthless. Its hard to combo into Jab2 and Jab3. Side-B laser is good at zoning with high aura, and his Up-B recovery is amongst the best in the game. Its very hard to gimp a Lucario. For what its worth, his counter also KOs your jabs at like 80% as well.

Strong, Safe Aerials with high KB hurt Luke pretty hard (Diddy, Robin). But I think that Luke plays a mean ground game, especially since he's constantly threatening an unblockable KO from centerstage.





On _startup_ frame data, it seems to be Mario / Dr. Mario.

There's no cooldown framedata yet. I've got a feeling that Samus has great startup frames, but poor / average cooldown frames.

Ahh, for start up it's Doc eh? That's surprising. I guess he's kind of like Luigi in that regard with super fast start up attacks and poor movement.

See, stuff like this is why it's so hard to peg a character in this game as the worst, they always impress you again somehow.

 

[dragontamer]

Mario has two A attacks that are slower than 9 frames:

FSmash and Fair. UpSmash is 9-frames, DSmash is 5 frames.

Dr. Mario has three attacks: FSmash, Fair (equivalent to Mario sans meteor), and DAir which is a touch slower than Mario's DAir.

Luigi is also pretty quick, framewise.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Mario has three A attacks that are slower than 9 frames:

FSmash and Fair. UpSmash is 9-frames, DSmash is 5 frames.

Dr. Mario has 3 attacks: FSmash, Fair (equivalent to Mario sans meteor), and DAir which is a touch slower than Mario's DAir.

Does this mean Dr. Mario's usmash is faster than Mario's?

 

[dragontamer]

Does this mean Dr. Mario's usmash is faster than Mario's?

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU

They're equivalent in startup speed at 9-frames.

I had a typo that I just corrected. Mario has two attacks slower than 9 frames. Dr. Mario has three. The corrected post has already been edited above.

Some "wtfs" include a 2-frame Jab, 5-frame uptilt and 5-frame down tilt. Also, the 5-frame "breakdance" down smash, which is utterly ridiculous in startup based on its KB potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus has a super hard time against rushdown and projectile users. Anyone who can pester her from charging or even approaching is a hard time, and fast characters who dont let her escape are as well. My personal experience - I feel like I hit a wall against some characters (and also some aggressive or disruptive playstyles). Switching out from Samus to a different fighter has helped in each case.

Maybe you're trying to hard to charge your beam?

Don't underestimate the usefulness of partially charged
shots. They come out faster than missiles and can
still do respectable damage.

Samus basically has to make her own opportunities to charge.
Contrary to what you many may think is the sound course
of action, it may be more beneficial for Samus to start
fighting in close quarters (albeit with some caution of course).
Using her various pokes (Zair, Ftilt and Dtilt) and most importantly,
morph ball feints to keep her relatively safe (And don't forget
short-hopped Uairs!). Now, it's important to remain unpredictable
with your bombs, since you can get hit rather easily if
they predict your movement (the bomb helps a bit but shouldn't
be relied on heavily).

Once you start knocking them relatively far, then you can charge
your beam more safely. Basically, if you try charging your
beam while your opponent isn't indisposed in any way, you're
more likely to be disrupted.

This was more for the rushdown characters. I got
nothing other projectile users, other than maybe stay mobile
and wait for chances. You can maybe throw off people
trying to catch your landings with down b.

 

[Conda]

Maybe you're trying to hard to charge your beam?

Don't underestimate the usefulness of partially charged
shots. They come out faster than missiles and can
still do respectable damage.

Samus basically has to make her own opportunities to charge.
Contrary to what you many may think is the sound course
of action, it may be more beneficial for Samus to start
fighting in close quarters (albeit with some caution of course).
Using her various pokes (Zair, Ftilt and Dtilt) and most importantly,
morph ball feints to keep her relatively safe (And don't forget
short-hopped Uairs!). Now, it's important to remain unpredictable
with your bombs, since you can get hit rather easily if
they predict your movement (the bomb helps a bit but shouldn't
be relied on heavily).

Once you start knocking them relatively far, then you can charge
your beam more safely. Basically, if you try charging your
beam while your opponent isn't indisposed in any way, you're
more likely to be disrupted.

This was more for the rushdown characters. I got
nothing other projectile users, other than maybe stay mobile
and wait for chances. You can maybe throw off people
trying to catch your landings with down b.

Yes, I use partial charges all the time. They can be out prioritized by many projectiles out there, as well as melee attacks. This plays to the weakness I was speaking about.

 

[Nobie]

Given the recent changes to Apex's rules on Palutena and Mii Fighters, where do people think the 2222 and 3333 movesets rank against the other characters?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mii Brawler's 2222 is definitely viable. Might be the only one though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Given the recent changes to Apex's rules on Palutena and Mii Fighters, where do people think the 2222 and 3333 movesets rank against the other characters?

Details or link?

 

[iVoltage]

Mii Brawler's 2222 is definitely viable. Might be the only one though.

The up-B on this set is utter trash though, but everything else is good.

 

[PK Gaming]

I can hardly believe how much worse Lucario has gotten through the removal of VI. Before the patch he was rightfully considered to be one of the most unpredictable threats to the metagame. Now that there are no powerful tools to increase a character's suvivability anymore Lucario hardly ever reaches the amount of percent he needs to make up for his downright awful neutral game.

RIP Lucario

Good.

He had it coming.

 

[Nobie]

Details or link?

I got it from the Apex 2015 rules thread

 

[Esquire]

The up-B on this set is utter trash though, but everything else is good.

...you're joking, right? Custom Up Special 2 is the Helicopter Kick, which is arguably Mii Brawler's best offensive special, best KO move and a decent recovery move. 2222 gives him Feint Jump and Burning Drop Kick, which mitigates any recovery issues. OIP is cool and all, but it's situational, and Helicopter Kick gives just as much kill power AND an easy combo ender.

If you question Helicopter Kick for some reason, look at this video right around the :54 mark:

And this was early on in the game's span. Way easier to combo into now.

2222 Brawler is legit, only misses Shotput for gimping reasons but it's far from crippling. Ultimate Uppercut can combo at least. It's not 1122 Brawler, but it's darn close.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The up-B on this set is utter trash though, but everything else is good.

That up B you are talking about is helicopter kick ... one of the most broken moves in the game.

 

[iVoltage]

That was a bit of a backlash, I was talking about it recovery wise. It doesn't go very high at all. The rest of the moveset is awesome. I should have specified what i was saying so I'm sorry.

Edit- The person in the video proves how bad it is as a recovery option because he dies twice in a minute due to it. The down-b helps but not all the time.

 

[RWB]

Or this video if you want to see just how well that Up B 2 kills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka38UQ5-X50

At about 1:41 and 2:40

EDIT: And... I'm late

 

[Makorel]

In the recovery rankings thread Mii Brawler's **22 set is rated higher than any **3* set. Jigglymaster gave his reasoning for why that would be. http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/page-4

 

[IsmaR]

I've found the biggest problems be against people who can outcamp you, stop you from charging charge shot (can only do this grounded), destroy missiles while tossing out their own projectiles, and the most irritating - stopping you from shooting missiles during the startup animation.

You never "dedicate" time to charge/build a wall of projectiles. It's one of those things you're either constantly doing (I do the charge animation/immediately shield just to fake people out) throughout the whole game, or just neglect in favor of shooting uncharged shots (which are actually surprisingly effective for people that like going in to interrupt you) or using a grab/shield/jumping out of.

She also has many blind spots when being defensive or aggressive, so she can feel awkward to use when your opponent is all up in your grill. Forcing samus to approach is a way to shut her down because she can't do much to approach, especially when coming from the air.

The biggest blow to her was probably losing D-air as a reliable approach on most the cast (comes out too "fast" or high to hit anyone not-overly tall out of shorthop). FF U-air still works wonders, though. N-air and F-air as well to a much lesser extent.

Maybe you're trying to hard to charge your beam?

Don't underestimate the usefulness of partially charged
shots. They come out faster than missiles and can
still do respectable damage.

Samus basically has to make her own opportunities to charge.
Contrary to what you many may think is the sound course
of action, it may be more beneficial for Samus to start
fighting in close quarters (albeit with some caution of course).
Using her various pokes (Zair, Ftilt and Dtilt) and most importantly,
morph ball feints to keep her relatively safe (And don't forget
short-hopped Uairs!). Now, it's important to remain unpredictable
with your bombs, since you can get hit rather easily if
they predict your movement (the bomb helps a bit but shouldn't
be relied on heavily).

To add on to this:

- Inconsistent charging (stopping just before you reach the full charge/visual indicator you have it) works well with the switching up to CQC considering if the opponent's not mindful, they'll completely forget you have it.
- Charge Shots themselves while usually best saved for killing are great for racking up damage. It's better to fire them sporadically than to save them against certain characters (specifically rushdown/other campers).
- Bomb stalling, while predictable 99% of the time, works if you condition them to expect it and start not, and continually changing it up every time. Additionally as far as actual recovering goes, you have heaps of options between bomb jumping / tethering / actually using Up B. You should almost never stick to just one method.

Once you start knocking them relatively far, then you can charge
your beam more safely. Basically, if you try charging your
beam while your opponent isn't indisposed in any way, you're
more likely to be disrupted.

This was more for the rushdown characters. I got
nothing other projectile users, other than maybe stay mobile
and wait for chances. You can maybe throw off people
trying to catch your landings with down b.

The thing with other projectile spammers is that it goes both ways. They can disrupt you, yet you can disrupt them. Vs most zoners/other range specialists, I find it best to constantly harass them with Z-air, missiles and running straight at them rather than trying to get away/charge your own stuff. If anything, I find myself having an easier time against people either trying to outcamp or CP someone with better projectiles (or reflectors, which is always fun).

Yes, I use partial charges all the time. They can be out prioritized by many projectiles out there, as well as melee attacks. This plays to the weakness I was speaking about.

They're not "partial" enough then. The bigger the better. Or more importantly, just shield/build it over time.

 

[Nysyr]

Good.

He had it coming.

Salt unnecessary. Lucario mains already had to put up with BS from ZeRo's tweet when the only way to kill was a super hard read (more of a read than ganon ever would need to make for example), or pray you don't whiff a side-b (which is rest range f9).

Put it this way, only 4 characters have slower options for their fastest hitting move while grounded. Lucario's got the frame data of a heavy character, with damage lower than that of even sheik until he gets passed 70%.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Given the recent changes to Apex's rules on Palutena and Mii Fighters, where do people think the 2222 and 3333 movesets rank against the other characters?

Mii Fighter -
2222 is the best option. Everything in the kit is good.
Betweeen 1111 and 333 hmmm. Shotput is good, Onslaught is good, Soaring axe Kick is underwhelming, Head on assault is next to useless you'd think it be like a yoshi bomb but eh not really. Exploding Side kick is just falcon punch, headache maker is crap. Piston punch is good, foot flurry is good. So two kits with 2 good specials and 2 that are lacking or ass. Piston has synergy with other aspects of the kit and Foot flurry is really good but I haven't used in a long time due to Feint Jump, also Onslaught often makes it feel redundant. Anyways I doubt it matters everyone will go 2222 for the more complete kit.

For gunner? 3333> 1111 > 2222. They could all probably do well. Gunner has less 'bad' customs then brawler or swordfighter. I don't mind 1111 and I've barely touched Lazer blaze.

I would rallysupport 2222 Mii Swordfighter. Even if you had full access to customs, you'd probably be using 2222 anyways, Airborne Assault is way too high risk for trash reward. Stone scabbard is one of those up specials that doesn't land all its hits, and is overall crappy anyways. Gale strike is alright, screw blade counter anyways because then why are you playing Mii Swordsman when Shulk, Marth, Ike already bring that functionality. Why so you can throw out some crappy projectiles? Get out. 3333 might actually be worth something. Blurring Blade's hits don't connect properly unfortunately but someone dedicated to it might know more then I do. Chakram, Hero's Spin is @ san. 's preferred If I recall correctly, and its still better then stone scabbard so I can't complain. Power thrust does 13% Damage, do not sleep on this if you did not want Reversal Slash for whatever reason this move was the obvious down B choice. There's a lot of lacking performance data for Mii Swordsman so based on what I know its 2222 vs 3333. Reversal slash lets you gimp though on a real level he's probably losing MU relevancy without it.

The thing though is if I recall its all Default size. That's probably the biggest thing because some follow ups are lost as a result that work with Small Mii's.

Brawler will do fine presuming more than one person decides to actually look at him.
Swordman will probably falter because of default more then anyone else.

 

[|RK|]

Good.

He had it coming.

"Had it coming?" Lucario mains have been saying for a minute that you guys were hyping him up too much. The nerf with 1.0.4 was obvious.

 

[Deathcarter]

Depending on how the top tiers evolve out, Lucario still has a good chance. Shiek for example seems to have an absolutely terrible matchup vs Lucario. Outside of a few unsafe moves (fsmash, up-b, fish), Shiek basically can't KO Luke till 150%+.

Even at moderate HP (~90% taken), Lucario's Force Palm KOs opponents at a downright insane percent. Something like ~80% or so, (with KOs as low as 60% if you get Luke up to max aura). Shield is the strongest defensive option in the game.

Another consideration: Luke's attacks are kind of hard to learn to use. Jab1 is a decent anti-air, but Jab2 and Jab3 are almost worthless. Its hard to combo into Jab2 and Jab3. Nonetheless, I have a feeling that Jab1 still sets up an advantage for Lucario... players just need to learn not to use the Jab2 or Jab3. Side-B laser is good at zoning with high aura, and his Up-B recovery is amongst the best in the game. Its very hard to gimp a Lucario. For what its worth, his counter also KOs your jabs at like 80% as well.

Strong, Safe Aerials with high KB hurt Luke pretty hard (Diddy, Robin). But I think that Luke plays a mean ground game, especially since he's constantly threatening an unblockable KO from centerstage.





On _startup_ frame data, it seems to be Mario / Dr. Mario.

There's no cooldown framedata yet. I've got a feeling that Samus has great startup frames, but poor / average cooldown frames.

How on Earth does Sheik have an "absolutely terrible matchup" against Lucario? Yes she has trouble killing but that's like the only thing she doesn't have going for her in this matchup. She runs circles around him in neutral, outranges him, has a much faster projectile, combos him better than he combos her, and edgeguards him much better than he edgeguards her.

I just can't see how this matchup is anything other than fairly in Sheik's favor. As far as I'm concerned, the big thing about this match is how differently Sheik needs to approach the matchup (with a focus on securing the kill early as opposed to racking up more %) compared to other characters as opposed to how Sheik supposedly struggling against Lucario.

 

[mimgrim]

Given the recent changes to Apex's rules on Palutena and Mii Fighters, where do people think the 2222 and 3333 movesets rank against the other characters?

I think this applies to only the Miis and not Palutena.

 

[Klaxon]

I don't even play as palutena but I stillfeel bad because she has such amazing customs that might not ever see competitive limelight

 

[Antonykun]

If Miis are going to be default then Swordfighter walks a very thin line between being playable or not. He is neither mobile nor in good range. All the songs and praises I gave Swordfighter have been to Short or Tall/Thin. Default is just a master of none.

 

[san.]

Ironically, arbitrarily limiting Miis is more work than using them as intended.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think this applies to only the Miis and not Palutena.

Yeah, this was my take.

Palutena Neutral 3 is complete trash, Palutena Up 3 is by no means bad but easily the worst option, and Palutena Down 3 is good, but also the worst of the 3.

And yet 3333 is still far and away the best Palutena. Go figure.

 

[Antonykun]

Yeah, this was my take.

Palutena Neutral 3 is complete trash, Palutena Up 3 is by no means bad but easily the worst option, and Palutena Down 3 is good, but also the worst of the 3.

And yet 3333 is still far and away the best Palutena. Go figure.

My 3DS is dead so I can't check but side b 3 is super speed?