Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

My 3DS is dead so I can't check but side b 3 is super speed?

How'd you guess?

 

[Nobie]

Yeah, this was my take.

Palutena Neutral 3 is complete trash, Palutena Up 3 is by no means bad but easily the worst option, and Palutena Down 3 is good, but also the worst of the 3.

And yet 3333 is still far and away the best Palutena. Go figure.

Are you sure 3333 is the best Palutena? Because 2222 is Explosive Flame/Angelic Missile/Jump Glide/Lightweight, and that sounds really, really good.

 

[IsmaR]

Jump Glide and Lightweight are often regarded as better than Rocket Jump and Celestial Fireworks, respectively.

To most, anyway. I like RJ/CF better. Though cba not using Explosive Flame/Super Speed

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of Palutena, am I the only one who likes Reflect? Not as an "always take this" of course if only because about a quarter of the cast lacks projectiles and half of the rest lacks a projectile worth reflecting, but against someone like Villager, Olimar, or Mega Man where it shuts down half their gameplan I would be sorely tempted to take it over Super Speed.

Also I just never meshed well with high speed characters in the first place...

 

[Antonykun]

Speaking of Palutena, am I the only one who likes Reflect? Not as an "always take this" of course if only because about a quarter of the cast lacks projectiles and half of the rest lacks a projectile worth reflecting, but against someone like Villager, Olimar, or Mega Man where it shuts down half their gameplan I would be sorely tempted to take it over Super Speed.

Also I just never meshed well with high speed characters in the first place...

Bruh reflect don't shut Villager at all, in fact it gives her a new way of mind****ing the goddess herself.

 

[thehard]

So I'm thinking Little Mac is going to go almost unused in singles but will remain a great pick in doubles and beyond. I don't think he's really flexible in 1v1s (would love to be proven wrong though) but otherwise his partner can save him from SDs (Jiggs & LM looked awesome) or make up for his weak air game with their own.

However, I'd rethink this if we got a legal walk-off. WF Studio for life.

 

[IsmaR]

Pac-Mac works wonders considering Pac's Up B can be shared.

Plus the name alone sounds adorable.

 

[thehard]

Is that Pac-Mac, Little Pac, or Mac-Man?

edit: 'd by poor reading comprehension

 

[Locke 06]

Pac-Mac works wonders considering Pac's Up B can be shared.

Plus the name alone sounds adorable.

Mega-Mac has an admittedly lesser name and a slightly more difficult sharing of up B. However, due to Rush not being a damaging move, it might work better than the trampoline.

Even of Mac got a walk off legal, FD and the walk off would get banned in stage striking/counter picking. Pocket macs might be a thing though, since stages are picked before characters.

 

[IsmaR]

The main advantage Pac's had is that it could be placed/left there beforehand. Meaning timing is less of a factor, Pac could recover before/fight off preying on Mac's recovery, and if need be, Pac can reset a new one while Mac bounces.

There's more benefits than just recovery, FYI. Mac makes good use of knocking around Hydrant, compliments Pac's trouble killing, and I shouldn't even have to mention how silly Pac's charged fruit/bell + Mac's charged Smash or K.O. Punch is.

 

[meleebrawler]

For what its worth, his counter also KOs your jabs at like 80% as well.

Lucarios counter doesn't do more or less damage based
on the strength of the attack he countered, it's purely
based on aura.

In fact, countering a jab would likely result in the counter
being blocked since it comes out fairly slowly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ironic that Pac and Mac are a great team, while in single format Pac-man is one of Mac's hardest match-ups.

Put trampoline in the middle of the stage then drop a hydrant and throw fruit all day.

It is sad to see.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I never see pacs throwing tramp on the edge to remove standing as a ledge get up.
granted you could ledge stall but given that invincibility wears off before the trap does am I missing something?
Its always elsewhere on the stage or under the stage edge.
Id throw that baby right on the ledge and tell you to jump/roll. Until you started just waiting it out on the ledge and challenge that.
Whats the downside.

 

[dragontamer]

I never see pacs throwing tramp on the edge to remove standing as a ledge get up.
granted you could ledge stall but given that invincibility wears off before the trap does am I missing something?
Its always elsewhere on the stage or under the stage edge.
Id throw that baby right on the ledge and tell you to jump/roll. Until you started just waiting it out on the ledge and challenge that.
Whats the downside.

Personally speaking, I prefer setting up BAIR -> Jab Hydrants that bounce along the edge. Seems to cover all wakeup options.

Why go for a trampoline setup when you can basically ensure a guaranteed hit from the Hydrant?

Second: I prefer off-stage combat. PacMan has a good aerial game and superior recovery to his opponents. A good Fair-Nair offstage combo usually solidifies a kill or a gimp. Going for ledge-traps doesn't really offer the same reward as taking a stock.

 

[Locke 06]

I never see pacs throwing tramp on the edge to remove standing as a ledge get up.
granted you could ledge stall but given that invincibility wears off before the trap does am I missing something?
Its always elsewhere on the stage or under the stage edge.
Id throw that baby right on the ledge and tell you to jump/roll. Until you started just waiting it out on the ledge and challenge that.
Whats the downside.

I played a Japanese PAC on for glory that did this. But he also set up a bouncing hydrant by doing hydrant>bair>up-b (I think). It's a really cool setup. Wake up or roll made you jump into the hydrant. Waiting on the ledge was usually my response until the hydrant stopped bouncing and then I proceeded from there. Without the bouncing hydrant, you can use the trampoline as a mixup by eliminating any aerial's lag and jumping on it or landing beside it after ledge drop>DJ. For disjointed fairs, pacman can't really challenge them.

 

[dragontamer]

I played a Japanese PAC on for glory that did this. But he also set up a bouncing hydrant by doing hydrant>bair>up-b (I think). It's a really cool setup. Wake up or roll made you jump into the hydrant. Waiting on the ledge was usually my response until the hydrant stopped bouncing and then I proceeded from there. Without the bouncing hydrant, you can use the trampoline as a mixup by eliminating any aerial's lag and jumping on it or landing beside it after ledge drop>DJ. For disjointed fairs, pacman can't really challenge them.

The problem with that setup (as you've stated) is really that "stay on the ledge" until the hydrant disappears. I guess PacMan can Bair you off the ledge though...

The Bair->Jab setup has the hydrant slowly march towards the edge, which means a player who ledge-camps will eventually be hit by the hydrant. (80-degree launch instead of 90-degree).

I feel like Pacman needs to space himself further inside the ledge, just in case the opponent decides to wakeup->Roll. Pacman can just stay there and prep an FSmash while the hydrant does the ledge guarding for him. I probably should test that later...

 

[Locke 06]

The problem with that setup (as you've stated) is really that "stay on the ledge" until the hydrant disappears. I guess PacMan can Bair you off the ledge though...

The Bair->Jab setup has the hydrant slowly march towards the edge, which means a player who ledge-camps will eventually be hit by the hydrant. (80-degree launch instead of 90-degree).

I feel like Pacman needs to space himself further inside the ledge, just in case the opponent decides to wakeup->Roll. Pacman can just stay there and prep an FSmash while the hydrant does the ledge guarding for him. I probably should test that later...

BAir->Jab loses to a well timed neutral getup>shield or ledge jump or roll (larger characters probably have a tougher time sneaking under it). If you prepped an FSmash, I'd wakeup, shield the hydrant, and punish the whiffed/blocked smash.

The trampoline is necessary to make the hydrant basically unavoidable outside of going over it or air dodging through it. What this is really useful for is it gives you a chance to charge your fruit to get a key. Going for a BAir is pretty telegraphed as you have to jump over the trampoline to do it. Very easy for characters to ledge drop, DJ UAir, and recover.

This is kind of my issue with Pacman is that his traps don't seem to link together at all. He does a lot to set them up, but because only 1 hydrant can be out at a time and trampoline causes delay while he goes into special fall, it's hard to make any sort of flow. Once you get past one trap, you're in.

 

[dragontamer]

BAir->Jab loses to a well timed neutral getup>shield or ledge jump or roll (larger characters probably have a tougher time sneaking under it). If you prepped an FSmash, I'd wakeup, shield the hydrant, and punish the whiffed/blocked smash.

What's your character? I can imagine Diddy or Kirby maybe being small enough to get under the bouncing hydrant setup from Bair->Jab... but the timing has to be pretty strict.

Neutral-getup IIRC always has at least 2-frames of punishability. Ledge-jump also has a few frames of punishability, but I don't know how much. In both cases, the hydrant is bouncing very low, and I'd have to imagine it to be somewhat difficult to time the wakeup.

As an FYI: the Pacman spacing on the FSmash is to cover the roll. Just making sure we're clear on this, because I'm 100% sure I've seen enemies roll through the setup.

This is kind of my issue with Pacman is that his traps don't seem to link together at all. He does a lot to set them up, but because only 1 hydrant can be out at a time and trampoline causes delay while he goes into special fall, it's hard to make any sort of flow. Once you get past one trap, you're in.

His "camp" game, outside of camping Littlemac, isn't very solid. I play PacMan as more of an off-stage gimp machine, relying on his quick FTilt and Jab to keep opponents off of me. Off stage, you can true combo Fair->Fair at moderate percentages (around 60% to 120%), which gimps a good chunk of the cast.

Throw out melon to cover mid-recovery, run off stage and threaten fair->fair gimps if they recover low. Use superior Side-B + Trampoline to recover.

Characters with solid recovery give me issues. I have to hit them till 150%+ and then Bair or Nair them for the kill. (The slow 18+ frame smashes do kill... but... they're so slow)

 

[Nu~]

Characters with solid recovery give me issues. I have to hit them till 150%+ and then Bair or Nair them for the kill. (The slow 18+ frame smashes do kill... but... they're so slow)

You really need to use your smashes more lol. They aren't even that slow or unsafe. Unless you randomly throw them out like a madman, you should not be whiffing or getting punished. You know as well as I do that pacman is amazing due to his versatility and unpredictability. He shouldn't be used to only camp or only play rush down, he should adjust his play style according to the situation. Gimping doesn't seem like the best strategy to base your entire game around. It's just such a waste of pacman's potential. It's definitely a great aspect of pacman to take advantage of though.

 

[Locke 06]

What's your character? I can imagine Diddy or Kirby maybe being small enough to get under the bouncing hydrant setup from Bair->Jab... but the timing has to be pretty strict.

Neutral-getup IIRC always has at least 2-frames of punishability. Ledge-jump also has a few frames of punishability, but I don't know how much. In both cases, the hydrant is bouncing very low, and I'd have to imagine it to be somewhat difficult to time the wakeup.

As an FYI: the Pacman spacing on the FSmash is to cover the roll. Just making sure we're clear on this, because I'm 100% sure I've seen enemies roll through the setup.



His "camp" game, outside of camping Littlemac, isn't very solid. I play PacMan as more of an off-stage gimp machine, relying on his quick FTilt and Jab to keep opponents off of me. Off stage, you can true combo Fair->Fair at moderate percentages (around 60% to 120%), which gimps a good chunk of the cast.

Characters with solid recovery give me issues. I have to hit them till 150%+ and then Bair or Nair them for the kill. (The slow 18+ frame do kill... but... they're so slow)

Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. I play Mega Man (who's short), so I remember running under a jabbed hydrant a few times. It's tricky though, but can have high reward (since they don't expect it). I probably wouldn't try to sneak under the hydrant as DK, but Marth runs lower to the ground than his standing height so maybe there too.

If the hydrant is going to fall off stage, you can time your neutral getup to have invincibility as the hydrant passes you. If you're using the FSmash to cover the roll, you're not in position to punish the neutral getup. If the hydrant doesn't fall off stage, you stay on the ledge and wait. Another option might be to ledge drop>DJ>air dodge the hydrant, and get back to the ledge.

It's a good trap, but I think there are options that may consistently beat it. I'd have to mess around with a Pacman main more but that's kind of how I feel with most of the traps I've experienced. Granted, my experience is a 1 hour session on For Glory with a Pacman from Japan, but after a while I understood the traps a little more and could work around them.
A lot of people in this thread say Pacman is a stage control master with his trampoline & hydrant setting up traps & camp. I think you and I think similarly about why that doesn't really pan out and you've taken Pacman a different direction. (Usmash is f13, that's not bad. )

 

[dragontamer]

A lot of people in this thread say Pacman is a stage control master with his trampoline & hydrant setting up traps & camp. I think you and I think similarly about why that doesn't really pan out and you've taken Pacman a different direction

Yeah... "stage master" is hardly how I'd describe him. He's got funny setups, but nothing unbeatable.

Another option might be to ledge drop>DJ>air dodge the hydrant, and get back to the ledge.

This plays to my gameplan though. My #1 strategy with PacMan is again, offstage gimps. I'm fishing for strategies that don't necessarily hit you. Instead, I'm trying to force you into situations that eat up your double-jump and then set me up for an off-stage Fair combo.

Up till now, I've more or less considered the Bair jab Hydrant Setup as my golden opportunity for that. (As you noted, the Trampoline is a double-edge sword. I have to jump the trampoline if I'm gonna attack you). I guess its back to training mode to make the trap a bit stronger...

(Usmash is f13, that's not bad. )

That's the point-blank hitbox. The f13 hitbox is kinda usable as a point-blank horizontal attack out of a dash or something.

But in practice, his USmash is f16. At least, f16 is the hitbox that is used like an up-smash (big hitbox that anti-airs very well). The f13 hitbox is very small, point-blank range that whiffs just about everyone's crouching hitbox... and also whiffs a good chunk of the cast's running animation hitbox.

 

[Conda]

How are we feeling about Greninja? Played him for the first time since 3ds last night and he felt like a great patience->approach character. Great grab and good all around tools make him feel like a solid all-rounder.

 

[dragontamer]

@ Conda Ever since the nerf, his up-smash no longer has the range to cover ledge-rolls, ledge-neutral wakeups, and ledge-jumps simultaneously from the same spot.

That's all I got. After 1.0.4, everyone I know stopped playing him. Lol.

 

[Locke 06]

How are we feeling about Greninja? Played him for the first time since 3ds last night and he felt like a great patience->approach character. Great grab and good all around tools make him feel like a solid all-rounder.

Pages 226-230 ish have your answer. The grab is tricky, because the standing grab is slow to come out.

I'm a little upset that he can SS hitstun cancel still after everyone talked about how rush canceling was so OP/buggy. That has completely flown under the radar for months.

 

[Conda]

I wasnt aware he can still hitstun cancel even after it was patched out. No word on it on the greninja forum, and ive not been able to do it since the patch

 

[Lavani]

SS hitstun cancel definitely still exists.

 

[meleebrawler]

SS hitstun cancel definitely still exists.

Ehhh...

This might work for multi-hit jabs, but for anything
else, the opponent could probably shield once
they have fallen for it a few times. Just like the
SS canceled Dair.

Shadow Sneak is not what one would call a "safe" move.

 

[Lavani]

That's a dthrow actually

but yeah, I agree. SS takes 12f to teleport and is around 66f total, it's a risky move to commit to and could just get you punished even more badly.

EDIT: Misunderstood what you were saying about the dair, my bad.

 

[Makorel]

How are we feeling about Greninja? Played him for the first time since 3ds last night and he felt like a great patience->approach character.

I wasn't aware that was a kind of character. Is there a list of fighting game character archetypes I could look up and perhaps what characters are which archetype?

 

[Conda]

I wasn't aware that was a kind of character. Is there a list of fighting game character archetypes I could look up and perhaps what characters are which archetype?

Generally fast glass cannon characters with great approach options are like this. I'm speaking about the stealthy rogue archetype in general - stay safe from afar, and pounce in at opportune moments. Greninja's great dash grab range, dash + run speed, and mix up options make him great at getting in fast, and getting out just as fast.

I've actually been comparing Fox and Greninja a lot lately. I'm not sure who I feel is better. Greninja has more solid and meaty tricks, while Fox demands hand-hurting dexterity () to overwhelm his opponents.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't matter. Neither one of them is safe. idk how people call fox top ten. He over commits to like friggin everything. Sonic does his job way better imo. Better footsies too.

 

[Asdioh]

Fox has the fastest fall speed, 4th fastest run speed, and one of (I don't know exactly) the fastest jump speeds. His moves are all very quick, and his upsmash is quite strong and can be comboed into. His grab is good. He has lasers and a reflector to force approaches, and his recovery is better than it's ever been. I don't see how he's not top ten, and that's how I've felt since immediately after I got the 3ds game. Even if a lot of his stuff is technically unsafe, his speed lets him bait and punish like mad.

 

[HFlash]

Where is does Zelda stand in the current meta-game?

Most people place her mid-tier, low-tier but that doesn't mean anything

Fox has the fastest fall speed, 4th fastest run speed, and one of (I don't know exactly) the fastest jump speeds. His moves are all very quick, and his upsmash is quite strong and can be comboed into. His grab is good. He has lasers and a reflector to force approaches, and his recovery is better than it's ever been. I don't see how he's not top ten, and that's how I've felt since immediately after I got the 3ds game. Even if a lot of his stuff is technically unsafe, his speed lets him bait and punish like mad.

You forgot about uair. That **** is so good for juggling and kills fairly early

 

[Locke 06]

What's Fox's "job?"
What's Greninja's "job?"

Yes, these characters have archetypes. Fast & speedy. But their designs are quite different in terms of specializing. Sheik is much safer while Greninja has to commit more with things like SH Nair. Greninja's combo game is more vertical while Sheik's is horizontal. Fox wants people on the ground for his Usmash/jab cancel/utilt shenanigans while Greninja wants his in the air. Sonic pretty much needs his spindash to do his combos, while other characters don't need the same prepwork. Meanwhile, Sonic's combo starter is safer on block than Sheik's.

Making one character try to be another character doesn't really work unless that character is a legit clone. Characters in this game are too different. At least this is how I think of it, which is why so many characters are viable and some characters are trying to be played in ways that they probably shouldn't be played (Falco is no longer a Melee spacie).

Edit: this is not to say characters don't do similar things. Yoshi and Wario like to use their aerial mobility in similar ways, but that is only one part of their respective games.

Fox has the fastest fall speed, 4th fastest run speed, and one of (I don't know exactly) the fastest jump speeds. His moves are all very quick, and his upsmash is quite strong and can be comboed into. His grab is good. He has lasers and a reflector to force approaches, and his recovery is better than it's ever been. I don't see how he's not top ten, and that's how I've felt since immediately after I got the 3ds game. Even if a lot of his stuff is technically unsafe, his speed lets him bait and punish like mad.

RE Fox: He does a lot of things well and a lot of things okay. Fast falling isn't always a good thing as he gets combo strung like a heavy while being a mid-light character. He struggles to kill outside of USmash and doesn't really have great edge guarding tools to take advantage of his pretty good recovery (Nair and BAir? another reason why fast falling can be bad). Lasers are less effective than they were before (they're free damage at very long range, but can be punished at mid-range) and everyone misses his f1 shine.

Top 10? I don't see him as a lock for that when Sheik, Diddy, Yoshi, Pikachu, Rosalina, and Sonic are widely considered top 10 material with ZSS, Ness, Lucario, Falcon, Pits, Wario, and Mario on the bubble. That's based off of what usually is discussed in this thread at least. Throw in, "Ike w/customs is amazing" and "Palutena with customs is broken" along with the Mii Brawler talk and I have a tough time seeing Fox as a lock for top 10.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

How are we feeling about Greninja? Played him for the first time since 3ds last night and he felt like a great patience->approach character. Great grab and good all around tools make him feel like a solid all-rounder.

His grab is horrible

 

[Emblem Lord]

He does Fox attack though? Everything he does is a risk and his reward is nowhere near Sonic.

Seems like he is counting purely on his ability to blitz and overwhelm his opponent. I dont think his grab leads to anything guaranteed does it?

 

[Chuva]

His grab is horrible

His grab is horrible, his dash grab is great

 

[HFlash]

He does Fox attack though? Everything he does is a risk and his reward is nowhere near Sonic.

Seems like he is counting purely on his ability to blitz and overwhelm his opponent. I dont think his grab leads to anything guaranteed does it?

His dthrow to fair strings pretty consistently. At higher % when it doesn't, you can bait out air dodges for uair finishes

 

[Trifroze]

Mii Brawler is legitimately amazing. I wonder if the scene will continue to sleep on them only allowing 1-1-1-1 default Miis or if they'll realize everyone is going to use the smallest possible one with mostly 1-1-2-2 or 1-1-3-2 and enforce that on every tournament setup instead, with Gunner and Swordfighter having their own optimal setups as well.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think anyone aware sleeps on Brawler. I think there's so much political horse **** that people are afraid of wasting their time with the Mii's right now. To find out that some kind of ruling gives them unnecessary limitations and their efforts are dissolved.