Character Competitive Impressions

[Ryu_Ken]

So I managed to play Link on SmashWiiU for a bit, and I'll tell you that he is a hard character to master. His ATs require some difficult inputs, and winning with him takes patience and dedication.
Is there any other character in the roster that's just as technical as him (besides Tink)?

 

[Antonykun]

I don't think anyone aware sleeps on Brawler. I think there's so much political horse **** that people are afraid of wasting their time with the Mii's right now. To find out that some kind of ruling gives them unnecessary limitations and their efforts are dissolved.

I almost wonder what kind of arbitrary bs they'll come up next to artificially weaken the Miis.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah, that's certainly a better way to put it. Maybe one day, although the fact that Apex went with the route it did is a concern.

 

[Antonykun]

I heard it's so people don't "cherry pick" the best moves, but really what's wrong with that? At worst you get a character as strong as Diddy and the crew and just three characters to learn as opposed to 9.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Originally Miis were limited to 1111 only, but through my and a few other efforts, they were changed to 1111, 2222, and 3333. It was a compromise we had to make. My original intent was to get them legal 100%. Brawler gets a significant upgrade with 2222 so honestly they're not being nerfed too much from their primary loadout (which I think is 2122 btw). He only loses Onslaught.

Ultimate Uppercut is better than shotput anyways, it has super armor and kills at 80%, forces your opponents to approach you and usually can be charged up for free after a f-throw (your primary throw option when your opponent is past 80% and can't be combo'd with d-throw anymore). Honestly the whole "Cherry picking" would simply be switching Burning Drop Kick to Onslaught and that's it, hardly any difference to begin with.

Apex is allowing mii fighters to use 1111, 2222, and 3333 and I personally think thats a HUGE improvement considering they weren't willing to listen to anything else. They didn't consider it at all until I suggested such a limitation, which again, is hardly a limitation at all.

Anyways, getting off topic here but yeah no since Mii fighters will be at APEX now people better start studying up on them otherwise they're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Antonykun]

Originally Miis were limited to 1111 only, but through my and a few other efforts, they were changed to 1111, 2222, and 3333. It was a compromise we had to make. My original intent was to get them legal 100%. Brawler gets a significant upgrade with 2222 so honestly they're not being nerfed too much from their primary loadout (which I think is 2122 btw). He only loses Onslaught.

Ultimate Uppercut is better than shotput anyways, it has super armor and kills at 80%, forces your opponents to approach you and usually can be charged up for free after a f-throw (your primary throw option when your opponent is past 80% and can't be combo'd with d-throw anymore). Honestly the whole "Cherry picking" would simply be switching Burning Drop Kick to Onslaught and that's it, hardly any difference to begin with.

Apex is allowing mii fighters to use 1111, 2222, and 3333 and I personally think thats a HUGE improvement considering they weren't willing to listen to anything else. They didn't consider it at all until I suggested such a limitation, which again, is hardly a limitation at all.

Anyways, getting off topic here but yeah no since Mii fighters will be at APEX now people better start studying up on them otherwise they're gonna have a bad time.

You forgot about size and weight. Short Brawler is amazing and short Swordfighter isn't bad at all

 

[Jigglymaster]

You forgot about size and weight. Short Brawler is amazing and short Swordfighter isn't bad at all

They're using Guest Mii's which have all default size and weight. This removes the problem of having to transfer from a 3DS or enter a person's Mii Maker on their Wii U. Guest Miis are the simplest way of making a Mii Fighter on anyones Wii U in less than 30 seconds. Due to logistics there's a reason why different Mii Weight/Heights would be banned at bigger tournaments, at locals 3DS transferring is probably acceptable and it oculd be allowed there.

Regardless, Short/Thin Brawler isn't much better than Default Size Brawler if at all. Both have their pros and cons. Brawler is already top tier without having to be Small.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How are we feeling about Greninja? Played him for the first time since 3ds last night and he felt like a great patience->approach character. Great grab and good all around tools make him feel like a solid all-rounder.

He has one of the slowest grabs in the game. Greninja moves don't compliment him at all. Fair and nair are too slow. He has no real ground moves that's notable. Spacing and approach problems.

I know people say that there's no clear cut worst character in the game I think that not true. I think Robin Palutena and greninja are clear candidates for worse character.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So I managed to play Link on SmashWiiU for a bit, and I'll tell you that he is a hard character to master. His ATs require some difficult inputs, and winning with him takes patience and dedication.
Is there any other character in the roster that's just as technical as him (besides Tink)?

Technical? Link is training wheels for Peach.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Technical? Link is training wheels for Peach.

Explain yourself.

 

[Antonykun]

Explain yourself.

a Floats goddamit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I know people say that there's no clear cut worst character in the game I think that not true. I think Robin Palutena and greninja are clear candidates for worse character.

None of those characters are anywhere near worst character in the game. I can't say that I know who is worst, but of the characters that I've messed around with(including all of the major heavies and Little Mac) I think Doc is the worst I've seen, though even he's not useless.

 

[Smog Frog]

where do you folks reckon game & watch will wind up? in the trash can or tournament viable?

 

[HeroMystic]

Definitely tournament viable, but probably won't be seeing a lot of him outside of the players who will specialize him.

 

[Kofu]

He struggles with heavies (who have a triple threat with superior range, weight, and kill power) and characters with superior disjoints most. But he does fine against opponents with smaller frames. I recently learned that he can absorb the explosion from Duck Hunt's clay pigeon; the list of what he can absorb that way just keeps going up, lol.

A musing about him regarding his kill power: it's not inherently bad, maybe slightly below average because none of his smashes are likely to kill below 100% unless he has a lot of rage or the opponent is just really light. What holds him back from making his kill moves work is actually landing them. USmash muscles through anything from the charge release animation to the actual hitbox but the size of the move is puny. FSmash and DSmash both have respectable range horizontally and can nail airborne foes but are kind of telegraphed. If a character has the tools to consistently interrupt his attempts to land smashes, he's going to have trouble KOing outside of gimps (or 9s/Oil Panic). Mega Man is a good example of this. Between his pellets and other projectiles (mainly Metal Blade) he can create an annoying wall of hitboxes that Game & Watch has a hard to working around, at least to land a kill move. High ground speed, like on Captain Falcon or Sonic, also makes landing kill moves difficult.

 

[ZHMT]

Where is it said those sets are legal? People here locally showed me in the rules saying its still only 1-1-1-1.

 

[Tristan_win]

So it seems in select match ups if time correctly Sheik can allow herself to get hit while using side B to give herself access to her own item.

Thread with more details: http://smashboards.com/threads/nade-shell-tech-and-tricks.385039/

 

[Deathcarter]

where do you folks reckon game & watch will wind up? in the trash can or tournament viable?

Viable but probably best as a pocket secondary for counterpicks. Has notable weaknesses but seems to downright troll some high tiers like Ness for example.

 

[dragontamer]

I know people say that there's no clear cut worst character in the game I think that not true. I think Robin Palutena and greninja are clear candidates for worse character.

Nario actually has a tournament wins with Robin / Dark Pit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcHaAI-FHqg

Any character that wins a tournament probably won't be bottom tier. Just saying.

 

[Smog Frog]

actually anyone in the game can win a tour since the game is so well balanced

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, it's that time on /r/smashbros again. Time for the user voted tier list. This month however there's a much more accurate poll, so none of that upvote downvote junk. Here it is if you want to express your opinions on characters. Hopefully some folks in here will hop into the thread and use it as a chance to educate folks on certain characters.

 

[FullMoon]

He has one of the slowest grabs in the game. Greninja moves don't compliment him at all. Fair and nair are too slow. He has no real ground moves that's notable. Spacing and approach problems.

I know people say that there's no clear cut worst character in the game I think that not true. I think Robin Palutena and greninja are clear candidates for worse character.

Greninja is nowhere close to being the worst character. Water Shuriken is a great projectile, upwards Substitute kills ridiculously early and it comes out faster than one might expect, Greninja's great at gimping, he's amazingly mobile and very hard to be gimped himself thanks to Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump allowing a lot of mixups.

He does have issues approaching the opponent sometimes, but I don't think he actually has trouble getting KOs, his Smashes are all pretty strong, if laggy, same for his aerials, but that just means you need to be more careful. He's just a character that takes some grace to play with and since he got the worst nerfs with the patch, people are overblowing it and thinking he became trash when it's not even that bad.

Not Top 10 for sure, but I can't see Greninja being any lower than Top 20.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Greninja is clearly the worst character in the game. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

 

[Antonykun]

I know people say that there's no clear cut worst character in the game I think that not true. I think Robin Palutena and greninja are clear candidates for worse character.

Greninja is clearly the worst character in the game. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

As a Swordfighter main I am so happy to know that they are no longer the worst in Smash 4 if this year shows as much promise as right now maybe Swordfighter will take Apex 2016.

 

[FlareHabanero]

People claiming Greninja is the worse never even bothered to learn the moves.

Greninja is a deceptively complicated character, so you can't immediately pick him up and win every tournament like a brain dead Diddy main.

 

[Conda]

I almost wonder what kind of arbitrary bs they'll come up next to artificially weaken the Miis.

No need for bitterness towards TOs. The way Miis are implemented makes 'not' having rules impossible. We cannot expect players to exit Smash, go to mii maker, design their Mii with their preferred weight and height, and then go back to the game and go through the menu to give it their favourite moveset (or multiple, if they use more than one moveset).

Limitations are needed if we want Miis to be used in tournaments.

We aren't the ones who decided to implement Custom Movesets and Miis in such a horrible way. As much as Sakurai and the Tekken Team have done for Smash's competitive balance, ignoring how custom moves and Miis are selected in tournament play is very crappy for them to have done.

 

[san.]

The problem with Mii Maker isn't the time (you can create a Mii in less than a minute), but the reliance on the gamepad.

Limiting moveset choice (1 character) and splitting them into 3 makes unnecessary work. You're setting up 9 Miis on all setups for like 7 people. It's more work for the players to deal with it, too, since you're going to see moves forced on people that they've never had to deal with before. Banning people from bringing their Miis is also poor.

The only thing that Mii creation in Smash is missing is an in-game height+weight editor. Then there is the UI issue of not being able to edit customs/miis on the character select screen.

BYOC- bring your own controller, bring your own character.

 

[PK Gaming]

As a Swordfighter main I am so happy to know that they are no longer the worst in Smash 4 if this year shows as much promise as right now maybe Swordfighter will take Apex 2016.

I'm 99.9% sure that Gheb_01 is being sarcastic

 

[Ryu_Ken]

a Floats goddamit.

So apparently one additional input makes Peach so complicated..?

 

[Locke 06]

So apparently one additional input makes Peach so complicated..?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHOu9mynuA

Pretty much yes. Because what you can do with the float.

 

[Conda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHOu9mynuA

Pretty much yes. Because what you can do with the float.

Great match. Not a fan of the commentary (shouting and screaming ), but very awesome peach gameplay, great use of float.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Link's high tier. And I know what you're thinking. "Says the guy with the link potrait picture!" or "You better explain yourself." But you know what... I'm not gonna bother cause I know I wouldn't convince a single soul of my point because Link's always been a crappy character. I'll let time tell. But years from now when a relevant tier list is actually made, you'll see Link sitting upon his high tier throne smiling from above and you'll think, "DAMN! I was wrong! That Smooth Like guy really knew what he was talking about!" You'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!!

.. or. Maybe he's mid tier. yup, probably mid tier. BUT he's not garbage anymore, that's a fact I think. And I'll be willing to prove that point.

 

[Locke 06]

Link's high tier. And I know what you're thinking. "Says the guy with the link potrait picture!" or "You better explain yourself." But you know what... I'm not gonna bother cause I know I wouldn't convince a single soul of my point because Link's always been a crappy character. I'll let time tell. But years from now when a relevant tier list is actually made, you'll see Link sitting upon his high tier throne smiling from above and you'll think, "DAMN! I was wrong! That Smooth Like guy really knew what he was talking about!" You'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!!

.. or. Maybe he's mid tier. yup, probably mid tier. BUT he's not garbage anymore, that's a fact I think. And I'll be willing to prove that point.

Who does Link do well against? Serious question, because I don't know. I agree that he's not garbage anymore with his nice buffs, but how he stacks up against the rest of the cast is unknown to me and I don't remember anyone talking about Link's matchups outside of "Hylian shield>projectiles." Especially since arrow bombing was patched out.

Edit: I've looked at the Link MU thread when organizing the Mega Man MU thread. It was hard to glean anything concrete from it. However, I did appreciate the LttP reference.

 

[Epok]

Link's high tier. And I know what you're thinking. "Says the guy with the link potrait picture!" or "You better explain yourself." But you know what... I'm not gonna bother cause I know I wouldn't convince a single soul of my point because Link's always been a crappy character. I'll let time tell. But years from now when a relevant tier list is actually made, you'll see Link sitting upon his high tier throne smiling from above and you'll think, "DAMN! I was wrong! That Smooth Like guy really knew what he was talking about!" You'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!!

.. or. Maybe he's mid tier. yup, probably mid tier. BUT he's not garbage anymore, that's a fact I think. And I'll be willing to prove that point.

Nope I agree. Link is very solid. I think part of it has to do with the buff of defensive options. It helps him to do what he does best and that's zone and mix up his play styles. I very excited to see him be more relevant in his game.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Who does Link do well against? Serious question, because I don't know. I agree that he's not garbage anymore with his nice buffs, but how he stacks up against the rest of the cast is unknown to me and I don't remember anyone talking about Link's matchups outside of "Hylian shield>projectiles." Especially since arrow bombing was patched out.

Actually... I haven't heard much of his match ups either. I know he does well against heavies (who doesn't) and characters with no answer to projectiles... I haven't really noticed any easier or harder MU's with Link, however my experience is limited cause in Smash 4 I haven't played anybody good. Mostly just For Glory scrubs. So lemme do some research and I'll get back to you on this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nario actually has a tournament wins with Robin / Dark Pit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcHaAI-FHqg

Any character that wins a tournament probably won't be bottom tier. Just saying.

Yeah he's also won with Palutena. I'm not taking anything away from him just stating how I feel these characters end up competitively.

 

[HFlash]

Actually... I haven't heard much of his match ups either. I know he does well against heavies (who doesn't) and characters with no answer to projectiles... I haven't really noticed any easier or harder MU's with Link, however my experience is limited cause in Smash 4 I haven't played anybody good. Mostly just For Glory scrubs. So lemme do some research and I'll get back to you on this.

I imagine characters that can out zone him OR have enough speed to prevent him from zoning so like: Captain Falcon, Fox, shiek, DHD. Go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I imagine characters that can out zone him OR have enough speed to prevent him from zoning so like: Captain Falcon, Fox, shiek, DHD. Go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong

I know Sheik's a real tough one for Link. One thing that I'll noticed is that when I play Link, I'm either dominating the match or getting stomped out completely myself. Sheik is one of those characters that can just snuff out all of Link defensive options. As we all know Sheiks combo game is ridiculous and Link just can't keep up. He's not even safe at a distance thanks to her speed and those ****ing needles.

DHD I think is in Link's favor. Link's actually got some nasty combo's now. Link will get out spammed, but if he uses his projectiles quickly to approach and get in DHD's face, it'll make his life a lot easier. This is one of the few match ups where I feel like I'm getting destroyed and then all of a sudden I execute a few measured strikes and I'm in the lead. I feel like duck hunt's got the edge in neutral but if Link can get his footing he can kill DHD really fast. Like really fast.

Unsure about captain falcon. He's fast and got mean combos like Sheik so you would assume it would go a similar way, but idk.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Link's high tier. And I know what you're thinking. "Says the guy with the link potrait picture!" or "You better explain yourself." But you know what... I'm not gonna bother cause I know I wouldn't convince a single soul of my point because Link's always been a crappy character. I'll let time tell. But years from now when a relevant tier list is actually made, you'll see Link sitting upon his high tier throne smiling from above and you'll think, "DAMN! I was wrong! That Smooth Like guy really knew what he was talking about!" You'll see... YOU'LL ALL SEE!!!

.. or. Maybe he's mid tier. yup, probably mid tier. BUT he's not garbage anymore, that's a fact I think. And I'll be willing to prove that point.

I feel Link is buffed by the new mechanics in that he punishes landing fairly well hell I'd say better then toon Link, which lets him guarantee a lot more of those hard hits then he could in previous iterations. This is partially due to his speed being upped so that he can get that coverage.

That doesn't say much given plenty of characters can eat you for trying to land but Link is disjointed.
In his archetype the only other ones who also having zoning projectiles are Pits, Toon link and Swordfighter.
He hits harder on the ground then the pits, plus his projectiles carry more punch. Significantly less lag then sword fighter in the air on some key moves (N-air, and B-air) and without Power Thrust, sword fighter doesn't break pressure well and can be juggled with greater ease. Is it me or Toon Links got mad aerial lag?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay I'm going to go into more details about why I feel how I do about those 3 characters. I also feel like shulk is contender for worst as well. I don't understand the defense of the three characters so hopefully someone can change the way I see things.

Robin has a bad grab range one of the slowest walk and dash speeds. I question his OoS options. So i can see him having trouble punishing people and get people out. I also dislike the magic counter thing on his moves. It's something Robin players have to deal with that other characters do not have to worry about. I don't think it's something that can't be worked around but I don't think losing your best tools is a good thing. Also recovery is pretty bad.

Palutena is a lot more mobile than Robin the issues I have with her are a bit different. I believe she has the worst specials in the game without customs. She comes with a counter and a reflect......Auto reticle isn't very good either. Her ground game is slow her jab is one of the slower ones in the game. Which tells me once you're in on her she's going to have a hard time get you off. She has good aerials bair is amazing but I don't think it's enough to make her viable. Wirhout customs she's not worth it imo. Also her tilts and smash attacks being so slow hurts her a lot.

Greninja such defense for him yet nothing really to show from high. He's highly mobile like palutena. Fast jab and that's about it. He's really got nothing going for him. He's got some start up issue on some of his moves I don't believe he over comes. Such as grab. His nair being so slow really hurts him since that's a "combo starter" Probably one of the slower moves for what it's supposed to do. Grab is one of the slowest might be the sliwest non tether? Spacing issues since he can't weave in and out of aerials. I think not being able to keep charge on ws is prettu bad for him.

I feel as though once people start spacing better it's going to be hard for tbese guys. It's not as though they can really pressure shields either. I question their OoS options all though I didn't list it for them. I don't think they're going to be able handle pressure well or be able to punish well. At tge same time their offensive capabilities are limited and they're not going to have the same type of pressure as others.