Character Competitive Impressions

[Jigglymaster]

Where is it said those sets are legal? People here locally showed me in the rules saying its still only 1-1-1-1.

It hasn't been updated yet. As of right now the rules say they were last updated 12/23/14, and the Mii Fighter rule was changed on the 24th. This was all confirmed over facebook by the Smash 4 TO and the host of APEX himself. They have yet to update the rules but when they do they will change that rule.

 

[Antonykun]

No need for bitterness towards TOs. The way Miis are implemented makes 'not' having rules impossible. We cannot expect players to exit Smash, go to mii maker, design their Mii with their preferred weight and height, and then go back to the game and go through the menu to give it their favourite moveset (or multiple, if they use more than one moveset).

Limitations are needed if we want Miis to be used in tournaments.

We aren't the ones who decided to implement Custom Movesets and Miis in such a horrible way. As much as Sakurai and the Tekken Team have done for Smash's competitive balance, ignoring how custom moves and Miis are selected in tournament play is very crappy for them to have done.

Sorry for being so bitter but it hurts knowing that the supposed low tier character you've been spending two months trying to get better with and prove he's not the next Brawl Ganon/ Melee Kirby has been made so much weaker. The Default Specs for Swordfighter make them pretty lose to a master of none among the Swordfighters

Well there's nothing left for me to do now than pray to Palutena someone plays Swordfighter for a round in APEX though knowing her, I'm probably boned. Either way I'm done being bitter about APEX Miis.

Though I would be pretty Salty is you are forced to use Guest A rather than Guest B for Swordfighter.

I'm 99.9% sure that Gheb_01 is being sarcastic

I myself was being sarcastic and playing along whith Gheb_01. Guess my internet sarcasm skills could use some work.

 

[dragontamer]

Okay I'm going to go into more details about why I feel how I do about those 3 characters. I also feel like shulk is contender for worst as well. I don't understand the defense of the three characters so hopefully someone can change the way I see things.

Robin has a bad grab range one of the slowest walk and dash speeds. I question his OoS options. So i can see him having trouble punishing people and get people out. I also dislike the magic counter thing on his moves. It's something Robin players have to deal with that other characters do not have to worry about. I don't think it's something that can't be worked around but I don't think losing your best tools is a good thing. Also recovery is pretty bad.

Robin's defense is poor. Not only the shield options, but Robin can't fall back to the ground very safely, outside of shenanigans with BReversals and fast-falls.

But where Robin makes it up is his powerful ledge-guarding game.

Properly spaced ElFire on the ledge shuts down a ton of options. Nair got a good gimping angle, and an off-stage Robin threatens UAir, Fair, Bair, and ElWind spikes. (I guess DAir can spike too, but lulz to that. The other options are better) Conservative players can charge Thoron / ArcThunder, or pelt ElThunders as the opponent recovers.

From center-stage, Robin KOs a MiiGunner at 157% (LSFAir), 110% (LSBair), 139% (LSuair), and 145% (LSdair). In practice, Robin will be KOing much much earlier than that if you get a solid off-stage hit. These aerials come out at 12, 9, 10, and 13 frames respectively, and outside of LSDair... they all have large, solid disjointed hitboxes.

(LSDair has a disjointed hitbox, but its tiny. I've never really seen this move used in practice, especially since LSFair seems to be a superior "low" aerial attack)

To give you an idea of this speed and power, Captain Falcon's Bair is 123% KO from centerstage, and comes out in 10 frames. Robin's LSBair has more damage, knockback, and speed than even Capt. Falcon's Bair. (Or Ness's Sweetspot Bair for that matter)

Robin LSUair has the 5th best knockback of all UAirs in the game (KOing earlier than the likes of Yoshi, Link, Ness, and even Bowser's Uairs) . Even with such power, Robin's LSUair comes with speed and huge disjointed hitboxes like no other. Robin's LSUair is a quick 10-frame attack that easily combos with various attacks in Robin's toolkit. (Elfire / ArcThunder in particular). The LSUair hitbox is massive, and covers Robins front and back. A common joke is that Robin's LSUair alone can be used as a Fair, Bair, or Uair.

Because of this LSUair, Robin's short-hop approach game is absolutely deadly. Short-hop Elfire and Short-hop ArcThunder easily combos into the LSUair KO. Both attacks can be wavebounced for positioning superiority. Further mixups from short-hop include Fair and Nosferatu, covering the entire set of defensive options your opponent can possibly do.

Elfire / Arcthunder covers spot-dodge and retreating rolls. Fair straight-up beats out a ton of standing attacks easily with its priority / power. Bair hits the opponent out of an advancing roll, and Nosferatsu punishes your opponent's shield with a 30 to 40% life-swing.

Sure, Robin's defenses are somewhat poor, but Robin's offense more than makes up for it.

 

[Conda]

Sorry for being so bitter but it hurts knowing that the supposed low tier character you've been spending two months trying to get better with and prove he's not the next Brawl Ganon/ Melee Kirby has been made so much weaker. The Default Specs for Swordfighter make them pretty lose to a master of none among the Swordfighters

Well there's nothing left for me to do now than pray to Palutena someone plays Swordfighter for a round in APEX though knowing her, I'm probably boned. Either way I'm done being bitter about APEX Miis.

Though I would be pretty Salty is you are forced to use Guest A rather than Guest B for Swordfighter.



I myself was being sarcastic and playing along whith Gheb_01. Guess my internet sarcasm skills could use some work.

Right, that's all well and good. But the game literally limits this kind of stuff for tournament environments. The game's interface doesn't support what we want to do, and that's a shame. But that's the only shame - how TOs manage to try and allow Miis and customs without causing issues is more than Sakurai or the Tekken Team have done to make these things easy to set up for tournament play.

 

[Chuva]

So to start off the year I decided to post my first proper top 10 tier list based on my impressions of what we've seen in 2014, be it tournament results or theorycraft, and also based on my personal experience in local play. Characters go in this specific order:


1-
Low damage output and lack of kill moves means little when you have such a dominant neutral game with little risk and considerable reward. Personally, I find the choice of balance in her 1.0.4 changes questionable: I'd focus less on DMG/KB values of Fair and Bouncing Fish and focus more on reducing a little of their safeness. As of now Sheik's Fair is nigh nonpunishable, and amidst Fair, Nair, Needles and her mobility it's a herculean task to put her in the disadvantage for most characters as it appears risk vs reward is always in her favor. She has the offstage game to make up for her lack of kill moves, with UpB being amazing as it is for recovery (and for killing). Sheik has too many tools to dictate most MUs and she can overcome her only apparent weakness through smart and methodical play.


2-
Talking about Uair has become too mainstream, so let us not forget some of Diddy's other ridiculously strong moves, such as a spammable 5 frames Dtilt with respectable range that easily allows follow-ups; A Fair that rivals Marth's in speed (6F start-up), with good range, hitbox, can be auto-canceled with fast fall and does 12%; His mobility, how unforgiving he is against shields with dash grab and Monkey Flip, the kick variant of Monkey Flip with it's speed and bazillion active frames, Bananas that allow easy grab setups, the high damaging combos from Dthrow...it's scary to think how good he is even without his Uair non-sense. With that said, he's not a God and has his share of even MUs, usually against the other top tiers. His recovery is something that should be exploited more as it's his only weakness at first glance.


3-
When people joke about him being the El Fuerte of this game, it's accurate because just like El Fuerte in SF4, playing against a good Sonic is a game of patience and gamble. Differently from El Fuerte however, who doesn't get a lot of damage from his mixups, Sonic is VERY damaging for being the fastest and one of the safest characters in the game. 20+% of a Spin Dash into aerial hit-confirm is a huge reward for a character that can reset most bad situations with ease. With the mobility he is allowed to have from B specials and running, it's not hard to land his more risky moves like Bair (which is also a kill move) or his grabs which can be converted into a Bthrow, another potent kill move, or even position a smash attack against landings. Sonic's mobility by itself makes him very strong already, but his improved hitboxes (F-air lol), good damage and kill setups are just icing in the cake. I really expect him to increase even more in usage.


4-
(2122 customs) In my opinion, one of the best pure rushdown characters in the game, only rivaling Sonic because of the hedgehog's ridiculous safeness. Having one of the best (if not the best?) horizontal aerial mobility with a 26 active frames Nair is just oppressive. That much aerial mobility with three very reliable launchers (Fair and Dtilt can both be followed-up until around 80%, plus Dthrow) gives them crazy setups. Aerials have great frame data and hitbox, Tilts are fast and the Smashes are devastating and not hard to land since it's easy to force mistakes from your opponent as you pressure them with hitboxes and frame traps. Helicopter Kick is arguably one of the best moves in the game as it's easy to setup and kills early while also being a good recovery; Feint Jump is majestic for both offense and defense, essentially being a third jump. Brawler can approach in so many ways and that might be his biggest selling point over Sonic and thus he might be more convenient in certain MUs.

And yolo Onslaughts is the most satisfying move to hit in the game


5-
She had significant (and justifiable) nerfs in 1.0.4 and, as my main character, the more I play against locals the more I see anti-luma tactics. With that said, she is still the queen of hitboxes and will still wall over half the cast with her disjoints and Luma shenanigans. Rosa is interesting because while she has a very strong defensive game, she can quickly transition to an aggressive play once she wins the neutral thanks to her dominant juggling and her ability to cover almost all opponent's ledge options (imo the best character at that), and can easily forces mistakes and convert them into kills because of her generous kill power. Luma still does a nice job halting pressure and breaking opponent's momentum, which is really helpful considering Rosalina's poor options for recovering from above and landing. In my opinion Rosalina is in the process of being "downloaded" by the meta-game but I believe she will continue to be a top character just because of her many good moves and the possibilities Luma allows. Let us not forget she still has potential for more development because of her unique gameplay.


6-
For reasons similar to Brawler: minus mobility and recovery, but plus command grab and a very good projectile. Hitboxes on some moves are kinda bogus, his rewards are good, he kills fast, egg-throw is godly, neutral B mixups works so well with his very good horizontal aerial mobility, hard to gimp, no apparent glaring weakness...character is just very solid, although he doesn't have as much non-sense as Sonic or Brawler. Really looking forward to the ascension of Yoshi's in the western side of the world, as I feel he can go even against all top tiers.


7-
I love ZSS because often I feel she fits as a true fighting game character. She can go rushdown but can also sit at mid-range playing spacing and footsies with Paralyzer, aerials and SideB. Good damage, top notch CQC and frame traps, lots of setups from Paralyzer, DownB and Dsmash, very hard to pressure both on and offstage because of her mobility and recovery options. Give her a platform stage like Battlefield and you have a mixup monster by improving the approaches of her aerials and her Dsmash options. She is not without flaws because of her inconsistency against certain hurtboxes and her poor grab, but tournament results both in the west and in Japan shows that her other attributes are enough to overcome such weaknesses most of the time.


8-
Probably the best at edgeguarding to the point where losing the neutral against the rat is a bigger risk than it normally is against most characters, and speaking of neutral, he also doesn't care if he loses it because he can also reset the situation quite well. A very good aerial kit, be it for spacing, racking damage, confirming of throws or gimping. Thunderjolt is imo one of the best projectiles for covering approaches or forcing them. Quick Attack shenanigans allows good mixups that leads to very easy and safe damage. Pikachu can be very scary with momentum. I'm not sure how the Pikachu meta is going but I'd love to see more use of Thunder to break opponent's strings (such as Mario Utilts) since according to the recent frame data Thunder start-up is 1 frame (in the first frame the cloud is summoned). I'd probably put Pikachu higher but lack of more representation sucks.


9-
Significant recovery problems apart, having 4 quite reliable kill moves (Bthrow, Uair, Bair, Nair) is a big plus in this game. Ness strength comes mostly from how well rewarded he is, be it from PK Fire, PK Thunder, grabs or aerials. In the neutral Fair and Nair are invaluable moves great at walling people. Despite the whole bad recovery belief, his double jump is godlike for all purposes: pressuring, spacing, recovering etc. I still feel he struggles against the more mobile characters like Sheik as Ness still relies on a bit of spacing to get his game going.


10-
I feel too many characters can go here:
: Not as unsafe as I used to think and the right Monado Art at the right time can be such a huge game changer
: Despite recovery and landing weakness, his pressure and rewards are obnoxious
: Good character that can impose the flow of a lot of MUs because of how balanced and versatile his kit is
: Very good momentum based with good strings coupled with speed and safeness, despite his predictable kill moves
(rushdown set): I have seen zero gameplay of her in action, although in theory she sounds absurd
: aura tho

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I feel Link is buffed by the new mechanics in that he punishes landing fairly well hell I'd say better then toon Link, which lets him guarantee a lot more of those hard hits then he could in previous iterations. This is partially due to his speed being upped so that he can get that coverage.

That doesn't say much given plenty of characters can eat you for trying to land but Link is disjointed.
In his archetype the only other ones who also having zoning projectiles are Pits, Toon link and Swordfighter.
He hits harder on the ground then the pits, plus his projectiles carry more punch. Significantly less lag then sword fighter in the air on some key moves (N-air, and B-air) and without Power Thrust, sword fighter doesn't break pressure well and can be juggled with greater ease. Is it me or Toon Links got mad aerial lag?

I'm convinced Toon Link is definitely inferior to Link. I mean just LOOK AT HIM. Such a ****ing weenie.

 

[HeoandReo]

Robin has a bad grab range one of the slowest walk and dash speeds. I question his OoS options. So i can see him having trouble punishing people and get people out. I also dislike the magic counter thing on his moves. It's something Robin players have to deal with that other characters do not have to worry about. I don't think it's something that can't be worked around but I don't think losing your best tools is a good thing. Also recovery is pretty bad.

...

I feel as though once people start spacing better it's going to be hard for tbese guys. It's not as though they can really pressure shields either. I question their OoS options all though I didn't list it for them. I don't think they're going to be able handle pressure well or be able to punish well. At tge same time their offensive capabilities are limited and they're not going to have the same type of pressure as others.

Arcfire is quite good for locking people down and getting followups, but Robin has to be pretty precise about them since there's a lot of things that can go wrong with that. Opponents can DI out of Arcfire. If they see it coming they can also jump over it or run past it and hit Robin since he takes a million years to end the casting animation. Robin might even be too slow to get the optimal followup from it. (grab if the opponent stays, Levin aerial if they get hit and fly off)

It's the thing that I don't really get about the Robin hype. He has lots of good tools, but he has lots of really crippling weaknesses keeping him from the top. His mobility is poor. He has a somewhat large hitbox combined with floatiness just like Zelda. His recovery is iffy. Hitboxes on his pokes are ridiculously precise. His zoning game is weird, since Thunder and Arcfire are both extremely situational moves. He does strike me as part of the top half of the cast, but maybe between 15th-20th, in upper mid or low high. Top 10 is probably not likely and top 5 is downright laughable, what with Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/Yoshi/Rosalina/Ness/Fox/etc. running around.

Robin to me is as successful as he is now mostly because the offensive playstyle often seen at higher levels is really, really, ridiculously kind to him. The matches where you see Robin excel are ones where the opponent just goes all in and happens to just waltz into every single Arcfire Robin uses and gets thrashed. People who give Robin even a little a bit more respect are a lot more difficult for him because suddenly they're not getting hit by followups as much, which is where Robin gets his damage and kills from.

 

[dragontamer]

It's the thing that I don't really get about the Robin hype.

I want to be clear, I'm not "hyping" Robin.

I'm simply stating that Robin is very far away from being worst character in the game, or even the worst three that AlMoStLeGeNdArY thinks he is.

Robin's movement and defenses give significant weaknesses. But otherwise, Robin players have a strong gameplan that can be executed rather consistently. That puts the character at least at mid-tier or higher IMO.

 

[irokex13]

Robin has a bad grab range one of the slowest walk and dash speeds. I question his OoS options. So i can see him having trouble punishing people and get people out. I also dislike the magic counter thing on his moves. It's something Robin players have to deal with that other characters do not have to worry about. I don't think it's something that can't be worked around but I don't think losing your best tools is a good thing. Also recovery is pretty bad.

I feel as though once people start spacing better it's going to be hard for tbese guys. It's not as though they can really pressure shields either. I question their OoS options all though I didn't list it for them. I don't think they're going to be able handle pressure well or be able to punish well. At tge same time their offensive capabilities are limited and they're not going to have the same type of pressure as others.

Robin's Levin Sword is absolutely fantastic for punishing people, especially in the air. His Uair has enough range to beat most aerials from characters that are about him and Robin's aerials are VERY good at scaring people into airdodging. If they airdodge, you can fast fall and USmash/FSmash depending on where they land around you, grab, Arc Fire, Nosferatu, or use any of the Thunder spells to punish.

Sure, having a limited amount of uses on his Sword and tomes is a nuisance, but they respawn fairly quickly and give him a VERY powerful item capable of killing. As long as you catch the item, you opponent has to respect your space, giving you more time for your Sword/tome to respawn.

Also, I don't know how you reached this conclusion, but Robin has absolutely amazing shield pressure. Arc Fire and Arc Thunder literally trap people in their shields for you to grab them. Nosferatu also can be used to punish shield happy players. While Robin may not be top 10, there is no way that he/she is the worst in the game. IMO Robin's top 20.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Robin's defense is poor. Not only the shield options, but Robin can't fall back to the ground very safely, outside of shenanigans with BReversals and fast-falls.

But where Robin makes it up is his powerful ledge-guarding game.

Properly spaced ElFire on the ledge shuts down a ton of options. Nair got a good gimping angle, and an off-stage Robin threatens UAir, Fair, Bair, and ElWind spikes. (I guess DAir can spike too, but lulz to that. The other options are better) Conservative players can charge Thoron / ArcThunder, or pelt ElThunders as the opponent recovers.

From center-stage, Robin KOs a MiiGunner at 157% (LSFAir), 110% (LSBair), 139% (LSuair), and 145% (LSdair). In practice, Robin will be KOing much much earlier than that if you get a solid off-stage hit. These aerials come out at 12, 9, 10, and 13 frames respectively, and outside of LSDair... they all have large, solid disjointed hitboxes.

(LSDair has a disjointed hitbox, but its tiny. I've never really seen this move used in practice, especially since LSFair seems to be a superior "low" aerial attack)

To give you an idea of this speed and power, Captain Falcon's Bair is 123% KO from centerstage, and comes out in 10 frames. Robin's LSBair has more damage, knockback, and speed than even Capt. Falcon's Bair. (Or Ness's Sweetspot Bair for that matter)

Robin LSUair has the 5th best knockback of all UAirs in the game (KOing earlier than the likes of Yoshi, Link, Ness, and even Bowser's Uairs) . Even with such power, Robin's LSUair comes with speed and huge disjointed hitboxes like no other. Robin's LSUair is a quick 10-frame attack that easily combos with various attacks in Robin's toolkit. (Elfire / ArcThunder in particular). The LSUair hitbox is massive, and covers Robins front and back. A common joke is that Robin's LSUair alone can be used as a Fair, Bair, or Uair.

Because of this LSUair, Robin's short-hop approach game is absolutely deadly. Short-hop Elfire and Short-hop ArcThunder easily combos into the LSUair KO. Both attacks can be wavebounced for positioning superiority. Further mixups from short-hop include Fair and Nosferatu, covering the entire set of defensive options your opponent can possibly do.

Elfire / Arcthunder covers spot-dodge and retreating rolls. Fair straight-up beats out a ton of standing attacks easily with its priority / power. Bair hits the opponent out of an advancing roll, and Nosferatsu punishes your opponent's shield with a 30 to 40% life-swing.

Sure, Robin's defenses are somewhat poor, but Robin's offense more than makes up for it.

Aren't those sh approaches something you have to commit to pretty heavily? If your opponent avoids them then you're going to eat a pretty big punish. I rhinj you're overstating his offensive capabilities a bit. But thanks for the info.

Almost every character has a game plan sone vetter tgan others some worse than others. Having a gameplan doesn't solidify you as a character.

 

[HeoandReo]

I want to be clear, I'm not "hyping" Robin.

I'm simply stating that Robin is very far away from being worst character in the game, or even the worst three that AlMoStLeGeNdArY thinks he is.

Robin's movement and defenses give significant weaknesses. But otherwise, Robin players have a strong gameplan that can be executed rather consistently. That puts the character at least at mid-tier or higher IMO.

Sorry about that. I think I was typing my reply while you posted yours. I wasn't referring to you when talking about the Robin hype.

I do agree with what you're saying, though. There are characters who are far, far worse than Robin is, and with his current kit I feel he's still mid at worst. Followups are still really good when he gets them and his air game is one of the best of the cast. He just doesn't really strike me as top tier material, that's all.

 

[mimgrim]

Robin is the type of character with a great set of moves but absolutely horrid mobility. And in a game like Smash mobility is a huge deal. His mobility keeps him from being the higher group of the cast but at the same time is move-set keeps him from being in the bottom. He's somewhere in the middle.

 

[HFlash]

Nairo thinks Robin is amazing, so that has to count for something.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nairo thinks Robin is amazing, so that has to count for something.

No, it doesn't have to.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nairo thinks Robin is amazing, so that has to count for something.

I'm only stating my opinions on a character. It's great that nairo rhinks Robin is amazing. I don't see how though. That's just me though. My opinion isn't to be followed or anything. I'm just attempting to generate a discussion because I don't see it.

If Robin is amazing what does that make diddy? Or shiek?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Nairo thinks Robin is amazing, so that has to count for something.

And why should I suddenly label Nairo as the absolute status quo?

 

[meleebrawler]

Poor Greninja. You get compared endlessly to
other speed characters like Sheik and get considered
trash because you don't have any really abusable trait
to win with.

How many people played 1.0.3 Greninja just for Shadow Sneak-canceled
Dairs, or Usmash abuse?

Now people need to learn to get the most out of
all of your moves, but why do that when others
have moves that are much more difficult to counter
and easier to use to great effect?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Poor Greninja. You get compared endlessly to
other speed characters like Sheik and get considered
trash because you don't have any really abusable trait
to win with.

How many people played 1.0.3 Greninja just for Shadow Sneak-canceled
Dairs, or Usmash abuse?

Now people need to learn to get the most out of
all of your moves, but why do that when others
have moves that are much more difficult to counter
and easier to use to great effect?

Basically the answer is that the only character that can compare to Greninja is Greninja, and some people prefer to play as the character that actually takes effort to learn and win.

Also, I used Greninja before the patch and still use it after the patch, and no Greninja was not gutted like people pretend.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Poor Greninja. You get compared endlessly to
other speed characters like Sheik and get considered
trash because you don't have any really abusable trait
to win with.

How many people played 1.0.3 Greninja just for Shadow Sneak-canceled
Dairs, or Usmash abuse?

Now people need to learn to get the most out of
all of your moves, but why do that when others
have moves that are much more difficult to counter
and easier to use to great effect?

His tools doesn't stack up yet he's magically top 20. Very very little rep and one of tge big things people give him crexit for is his up counter.....and ss escaping hit stun. There nothing wrong with putting in work but people are acting as thoigh greninja has this untaped unlocked potential where you just neex the effort and moxie. When the truth is he's bad really bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

About the only thing really dookie about Greninja is that damn grab of his. Like, seriously, can you please not deceive me with your animation that makes it seem like your grab has more range than it should? He has good buttons otherwise, and decent mobility.

Smooth Criminal

 

[FullMoon]

I think the reason Greninja has so little representation in tournaments is because people saw he got the most noticeable nerfs and went "nope, totally trash now" and don't give him a chance. Though, don't quote me on this, I think the Japanese are making more use of him.

I play him because he has an unique, interesting playstyle with a lot of deception and mindgames to it which I can really enjoy. He has strong smashes, though laggy, a wonderful projectile that can apply pressure on the opponent as well as being a good setup for combos when fully charged, his dash grab is great... I don't see anything about him that's really bad outside of his standing grab and the fact that he has difficulty to approach the opponent, which, well, every character needs a weakness.

Plus, doing stuff like this feels very satisfying.

 

[meleebrawler]

Basically the answer is that the only character that can compare to Greninja is Greninja, and some people prefer to play as the character that actually takes effort to learn and win.

Also, I used Greninja before the patch and still use it after the patch, and no Greninja was not gutted like people pretend.

Another part of it seems to be how Greninja has a lot
of good tools, but no outstanding ones. With this
game so well balanced as it is, characters that lack amazing
talents are viewed as bad, or at least boring compared to others.
Other victims of this "plainness syndrome" I believe
are DK and Wario.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY His tools don't stack up to who? The top tiers?
Many of his moves are useful in many situations, you just have
to be more careful using them and making sure to use
the right ones at the right times, as opposed to constantly
threatening with a small selection of great moves.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

To the rest of the cast not just top tiers. You just said yourself his moves are situational. Or is that not how I should interpret what you said? I have no qualms with his jab I think it's a great move. His bair is pretty mediocre to me. Fair and nair are on the slow side. Uair and dair don't seem to be anything muvh of note. Bair is his best and fastest aerial. His jab is 3 frames which serms to be typical. Dtilt is on the fast side and a combo starter but the range is poor. 5 frame dtilt doesn't seem like anything special. It's underwhelming to me . I don't think that because a character strengths aren't obvious is a reason to say tbat they're bad. I just don't think Greninja's is good.

 

[HFlash]

And why should I suddenly label Nairo as the absolute status quo?

I never said that because a pro said something, THAT IS DEFINITE. What I am saying is if a professional who earns money from this game thinks the character is worth maining, then maybe everyone shouldn't dismiss the character as low tier or bad or whatever especially since the game is so new. Olimar was considered meh at best when brawl came out, now top 5. Mario considered to have alot of "potential" and possible top 5 material when melee came out, now he is considered bottom of the barrel.

 

[Luco]

Ironically NAKAT wins the set that was linked earlier, I watched it the other day hehehe, but there is something to be gleamed from that. Robin's shield pressure is quite fantastic, and his juggling should not be underselled. In fact I think juggling is probably one of the bigger important parts of our meta right now with the changes to AD and characters that can juggle well as well as characters who can avoid juggling may have quite a large advantage.

Robin is nowhere near worst in the game. The only downside to Arcfire is that if it misses the other person entirely, Robin has a lot of end lag. That's the only thing keeping it from being one of the most broken, ridiculous moves in the game imo.

His grabs have poor range but it doesn't seem to stop him getting decent grabs. Plus he has a command grab through Nosferatu which is important. A character with such potent kill potential through 2 specials that activate even on shield is quite a big deal. Robin may not be top 10 but I think he's in the realms of pretty decent, and while you shouldn't necessarily be taking the word of a top player just because they're a top player, it's probably a little more valid to take the word of a top player who's actually taking spots with the character they're talking about. I'm inclined to believe Nairo when he's going head to head with other top players using Robin and often doing very well.

 

[FullMoon]

To the rest of the cast not just top tiers. You just said yourself his moves are situational. Or is that not how I should interpret what you said? I have no qualms with his jab I think it's a great move. His bair is pretty mediocre to me. Fair and nair are on the slow side. Uair and dair don't seem to be anything muvh of note. Bair is his best and fastest aerial. His jab is 3 frames which serms to be typical. Dtilt is on the fast side and a combo starter but the range is poor. 5 frame dtilt doesn't seem like anything special. It's underwhelming to me . I don't think that because a character strengths aren't obvious is a reason to say tbat they're bad. I just don't think Greninja's is good.

I feel like you just haven't gone against a good Greninja. It may look underwhelming on paper, but once you see it in action you see that it works pretty well. B-Air is everything Greninja needs in order to gimp someone and is great for juggling the opponent in the air, d-air into up-smash has served me very well in matches, u-air is great for racking up damage and is great for juggling the opponent too and even has good KO potential. D-air is very situational, yes, but even then you shouldn't completely dismiss it.

Really, I don't think your opinion is going to change until you actually experience going against the ninja himself when the player using him knows what he's doing.

 

[meleebrawler]

I never said that because a pro said something, THAT IS DEFINITE. What I am saying is if a professional who earns money from this game thinks the character is worth maining, then maybe everyone shouldn't dismiss the character as low tier or bad or whatever especially since the game is so new. Olimar was considered meh at best when brawl came out, now top 5. Mario considered to have alot of "potential" and possible top 5 material when melee came out, now he is considered bottom of the barrel.

I don't believe Mario is dead last in Melee, he's
actually squarely mid, just that if you can't stand up to spacies
in Melee you're not really worth the time.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Chuva - Yep. I think your list sums up the general impression. However, I have some qualms about a few characters:

Spoiler

- I think Brawler & rushdown Palutena are reaping the benefits of 0 MU knowledge. This isn't to say that they're not good, but the lack of exposure helps them in a lot of ways.
- ZSS has fallen off the map since the Wii U release. With more and more familiarity playing against the paralyzer and predicting the flip jump, I'm not sure she can stay near the top like she was when the game first came out.
- Shulk got significant buffs, but I still want to see people mess with his spacing game. His game is still developing, but his approach is lacking outside of speed. I can see him struggling heavily against defensive characters.
- Fox's versatility is nice, but his rewards just don't seem to match up. He gets combo strung too easily because of his light weight/fall speed and I think that hurts him too much to make him a candidate for top-10.
- Aura lucario is ridiculous, but I think many people become "scared" of aura Lucario when playing against him. This helps him win the mindgame. Aura Lucario still suffers from the same problems non-aura lucario has to deal with outside of damage output. Also, his recovery when he goes high has similar end lag to when Dedede falls on his head.

I'll piggyback off Chuva's list and say that the following characters in the "conversation" of top-20 based on 2014 results and theorycrafting that's been done in this thread in no specific order. If I missed a character, forgive me, but this is purely to say who has been in the discussion and who is viable based on the scene now.

(customs)
/(customs)

That's 28 characters for top-20 consideration with them all being undeniably "viable" competitively.

Take a step back, and soak that in. Smash 64 has 12 characters, and Melee has 25 separate characters total. This is early in the game's lifespan, but this is really cool.


If you need reasons for the characters that were not listed in Chuva's list, here you go:

Spoiler

(Zucco)(Will)(Nairo/Trela) - Tourney results
/ results + "no weaknesses"; has been mentioned as very very good with very little footage; "broken if he had a grab";"better than Mario"; "Top 3 w/customs"; has people who understand him/her full of hope; because Will; was dominant in 1.0.3 and is not too far from his former glory; - Chibo & also has + MU's; - potential with floats... just so demanding that few have tackled her at a high level

 

[Makorel]

I guess we'll just have to have 28 characters in our top 20.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I can agree with that list except for the omission of Puff. Puff is the biggest sleeper pick right now imo (no pun intended...)

I don't believe Mario is dead last in Melee, he's
actually squarely mid, just that if you can't stand up to spacies
in Melee you're not really worth the time.

No he is a mid tier, you're right. I think he's something like 14th on the list, which is near the break between mid and low? However, one big problem with Mario is just that Doc outclasses him.

Mario can still do some things, but there is a reason he isn't used. I don't know too much about his MUs against spacies, but I know that Doc, while he does have something seen as bad v them, his isn't the end of world. Don't take what I'm saying as the absolute truth, but to my understanding it isn't as bad as something like Falcon v. Spacies

 

[Chuva]

@ Chuva
- ZSS has fallen off the map since the Wii U release. With more and more familiarity playing against the paralyzer and predicting the flip jump, I'm not sure she can stay near the top like she was when the game first came out.

Choco is still winning tournaments in Japan with her. In the west she has a consistent base of people playing her and even Nairo tried her in the last Xsmash. As predictable as paralyzer is, it is still fundamentally a great spacing tool and will probably always remain relevant.

 

[FullMoon]

I find it funny that in Melee, Mario was outclassed by Doc and now the inverse is happening here.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I find it funny that in Melee, Mario was outclassed by Doc and now the inverse is happening here.

Doc finally got a taste his own medicine

Spoiler

this time it was intended.... Forgive me :[

 

[Morbi]

@ Chuva - Yep. I think your list sums up the general impression. However, I have some qualms about a few characters:

Spoiler

- I think Brawler & rushdown Palutena are reaping the benefits of 0 MU knowledge. This isn't to say that they're not good, but the lack of exposure helps them in a lot of ways.
- ZSS has fallen off the map since the Wii U release. With more and more familiarity playing against the paralyzer and predicting the flip jump, I'm not sure she can stay near the top like she was when the game first came out.
- Shulk got significant buffs, but I still want to see people mess with his spacing game. His game is still developing, but his approach is lacking outside of speed. I can see him struggling heavily against defensive characters.
- Fox's versatility is nice, but his rewards just don't seem to match up. He gets combo strung too easily because of his light weight/fall speed and I think that hurts him too much to make him a candidate for top-10.
- Aura lucario is ridiculous, but I think many people become "scared" of aura Lucario when playing against him. This helps him win the mindgame. Aura Lucario still suffers from the same problems non-aura lucario has to deal with outside of damage output. Also, his recovery when he goes high has similar end lag to when Dedede falls on his head.

I'll piggyback off Chuva's list and say that the following characters in the "conversation" of top-20 based on 2014 results and theorycrafting that's been done in this thread in no specific order. If I missed a character, forgive me, but this is purely to say who has been in the discussion and who is viable based on the scene now.

(customs)
/(customs)

That's 28 characters for top-20 consideration with them all being undeniably "viable" competitively.

Take a step back, and soak that in. Smash 64 has 12 characters, and Melee has 25 separate characters total. This is early in the game's lifespan, but this is really cool.


If you need reasons for the characters that were not listed in Chuva's list, here you go:

Spoiler

(Zucco)(Will)(Nairo/Trela) - Tourney results
/ results + "no weaknesses"; has been mentioned as very very good with very little footage; "broken if he had a grab";"better than Mario"; "Top 3 w/customs"; has people who understand him/her full of hope; because Will; was dominant in 1.0.3 and is not too far from his former glory; - Chibo & also has + MU's; - potential with floats... just so demanding that few have tackled her at a high level

I suppose the real question is whether or not Palutena or Ike are considered top twenty without customs. If not, they are not really top 20 in a meta-game without customs, correct?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I find it funny that in Melee, Mario was outclassed by Doc and now the inverse is happening here.

Because Doc is no longer a straight forward better Mario.

Arguably the only reason to use Mario over Doc in Melee was that Mario had a slightly better recovery.

 

[FullMoon]

Because Doc is no longer a straight forward better Mario.

Arguably the only reason to use Mario over Doc in Melee was that Mario had a slightly better recovery.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's still funny to see how things changed though.

 

[Yonder]

where do you folks reckon game & watch will wind up? in the trash can or tournament viable?

I bet if Game and Watch had his smash attacks from Brawl and bucket breaking, he's be somewhere in the upper high tier. Everything else was improved, bair is great on shields, fair is amazing for edgeguard, bacon is actually semi useful now [he doesn't become stuck after using it and can start up and cancel it at anytime], bucket is great, and a bucket can be used at 0% from a D throw guaranteed. Also, killing a character at 0% from a D throw with a full bucket is the most satisfying thing ever.

But yeah, otherwise he struggles hard to get a kill, and ends up being killed first due to his weight. He gained so many inor buffs, but nerfed in two gigantic categories. I'd say he's top of the low for now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I suppose the real question is whether or not Palutena or Ike are considered top twenty without customs. If not, they are not really top 20 in a meta-game without customs, correct?

Palutena, no way

Ike... looking at that list... maybe? If he's not at the bottom of the list, he's just right below it.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Palutena is better with her defaults to be frank, maybe replace Counter with Lightweight.

Ike, I don't know. I do have fun with ****ing over people with Tempest though, but then again I like the wind pushing customs in general because I can get away with being a prick.

 

[san.]

I think Ike is better than some of those characters listed, so sure, why not.