Character Competitive Impressions

[san.]

You can fastfall while in tumble now, but it's awkward. It feels like there's a limited margin of time you are able to fast fall.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can someone explain why so many people think Charizard is terrible? I get that he has laggy aerials and a lot of his moves are unsafe, but he's pretty fast for his weight, has a good recovery, and isn't as big a target as the other heavies. He seems to me to be a hard read based character with the durability and kill power to get away with a few mistakes. I get the feeling that he's like Ganondorf, but less exploitable in neutral, yet I see tier lists where he's lower than Ganon and near the bottom. He seems to be mid-tier to me, low-mid at worst.

If you're talking about eventhubs (or eventscrubs, if you are feeling funny), pay their tier list no mind. The matchups are decided by votes, which means anyone who likes the character can log in and put all matches in their favor, and viceversa.

As for Zard, I don't think he's bad, but I disagree with his recovery being good. Maybe good for his weight class, but it's decent at best when compared to the rest of the cast. For a flying type, he doesn't jump very high, and Fly doesn't carry him that high (though better than Brawl). It's decent at best, it's very predictable though

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can someone explain why so many people think Charizard is terrible? I get that he has laggy aerials and a lot of his moves are unsafe, but he's pretty fast for his weight, has a good recovery, and isn't as big a target as the other heavies. He seems to me to be a hard read based character with the durability and kill power to get away with a few mistakes. I get the feeling that he's like Ganondorf, but less exploitable in neutral, yet I see tier lists where he's lower than Ganon and near the bottom. He seems to be mid-tier to me, low-mid at worst.

Because they keep looking at eventhubs and thinking he is bad because he was rated the worst character in the game on a publicly vote-able tier list.

And yet, Zard wins a tournament against Shiek and suddenly people are going, "OMG he beats Sheik" uggg, it's just hivemind of how players think.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Lol EventHubs.

 

[DavemanCozy]

And yet, Zard wins a tournament against Shiek and suddenly people are going, "OMG he beats Sheik" uggg, it's just hivemind of how players think.

It's this, + crazy fans overrate characters as well. I just checked Eventhubs, apparently Marth and Lucina are above Diddy Kong and Robin is in the top 10 (debatable)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zard's recovery is pretty bad. Its similar to D3's in Brawl (and now, although the autosnap makes D3's MUCH better now), sure it can go far, but its so slow, unsafe, and predictable so that its easily stopped/punished.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Zard's recovery is pretty bad. Its similar to D3's in Brawl (and now, although the autosnap makes D3's MUCH better now), sure it can go far, but its so slow, unsafe, and predictable so that its easily stopped/punished.

Fly has super armor so is hard to intercept. Its distance is pretty bad though. Ledge snapping a dragon rush or flare blitz is safish and risky to intercept (though certainly possible if used too predictably, as TRG painfully taught me). He certainly has trouble recovering low but compared to DDD has an easier time getting back to neutral from high. He's also terrifying to fight offstage and can counter guard if you mess up.

 

[Thinkaman]

The 1.0.4 japanese support page is up. It doesn't give us any information besides confirming that there are bugfix and balance changes that break replays and local wireless across versions. But it does mean it's coming, and probably soon.

In the MEANTIME, I'm going to make an assertion:

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

Anyone care to disagree, or propose a counter-example?

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Well charizard would be top 8 one for each color.

But if this thread has proved anytright its that Mario is the worst character in the game. Hed still be mid tier ( kappa. )

 

[DavemanCozy]

maybe this update is where item toss cancelling is removed. It was fun playing Link

 

[mountain_tiger]

The 1.0.4 japanese support page is up. It doesn't give us any information besides confirming that there are bugfix and balance changes that break replays and local wireless across versions. But it does mean it's coming, and probably soon.

In the MEANTIME, I'm going to make an assertion:

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

Anyone care to disagree, or propose a counter-example?

Zelda - she'd still be very unreliable against characters she struggles to land a lightning kick on, even if she would be pretty high up there.

Also Little Mac, for his atrocious recovery. And Ike because he still struggles to get hits in at all. Likewise with Bowser etc.

 

[Luco]

Also Olimar - he'd definitely be very good, but Pikmin smash attacks as projectiles make the game too gimmicky for him to have a reliant advantage against some of the cast.

Also, are you saying that damage is doubled at the expense of KB? Because while that sounds amazing in doubles where someone else can land the final hit, it feels weird to me in singles where you've got them at 200% and struggling to kill them.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

No he means that the moves would kill at the same percent as before instead of killing at an earlier percent

 

[Thinkaman]

Well charizard would be top 8 one for each color.

And Ike because he still struggles to get hits in at all. Likewise with Bowser etc.

So big characters would actually gain the most, due to the non-linear relationship increasing damage has with shield threat. Double damage isn't merely twice as good on-hit--it also changes how the move interacts with shields and shield pressure at a fundamental level. A move that does 50% isn't just 5x stronger than a move that does 10%--it's also unblockable.

All these heavy character f-smashes and Rock Smash would become unblockable.

Their fairs and f-tilts would take away just over half a shield, quickly approaching that territory as well.

But if this thread has proved anything its that Mario is the worst character in the game. Hed still be mid tier ( kappa. )

Mario with a frame 3 42% (raw) move is terrifyingly game breaking. 10%/8% standard fireballs, or 6%/2%fast fireballs? An electric cape that breaks shields in one hit? 28% f-smash and u-smash?

You can approach with a normal fireball and up-b 3 on block, breaking any shield.

There's also another non-linear relationship (favorable) interacting with stale moves.

3 14% Mario uairs does more damage (39.1%) than 7 7% ones. (38.6%)

This relationships means that characters who more heavily rely on repeating the same low-damage moves benefit disproportionately with damage increases.

Zelda - she'd still be very unreliable against characters she struggles to land a lightning kick on, even if she would be pretty high up there.

Zelda and Olimar are probably the closest contenders imo.

But Zelda... 34% uncharged f-smash? 30% uncharged u-smash? Who needs 40% toes and 32% dairs when you have 24% throws and 22% Nayru's?

Also Little Mac, for his atrocious recovery.

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

Edit:
As a recap, double damage does more than just "double reward on hit." That's just the baseline. Increases in damage also:

• Increase shield pressure and shield break threat, making some moves de facto unblockable
• Reduce the possible significance of stale moves per stock
• Create favorable trade opportunities that redefine opponent safe options
• Force opponents into playing safer for more of the match by getting them to kill ranges sooner
• Redefine clashing interactions--your moves may clash where they previously failed, and win where they previous tied
• Trivialize % threshold mechanics, such as killing Luma, DHD Gunmen, Villager Tree, or PAC-MAN hydrant
• Make it easier to get smash balls

All of these advantages feed off of each other and, if the magnitude is high (like x2.0 damage), spiral out of control.

2.0x damage would make Brawl Ganondorf beat Brawl Meta-Knight on neutral stages, especially if you also took away Tornado abuse. It wouldn't even be contestable. In BBrawl we did waaaaaay less than that, and the matchup was fine.

I'm pretty sure 1.5x damage would be enough to give any character in Smash 4 favorable matchups against every other character.

 

[Remzi]

The 1.0.4 japanese support page is up. It doesn't give us any information besides confirming that there are bugfix and balance changes that break replays and local wireless across versions. But it does mean it's coming, and probably soon.

In the MEANTIME, I'm going to make an assertion:

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

Anyone care to disagree, or propose a counter-example?

Breaks replays? Seriously? We can't watch our old replays anymore after each balance patch?

As dumb as that is, I'm looking forward to seeing what has changed. The ONLY balance change I'd like to see at this point is leveling out the Lucario madness.

 

[Judo777]

The 1.0.4 japanese support page is up. It doesn't give us any information besides confirming that there are bugfix and balance changes that break replays and local wireless across versions. But it does mean it's coming, and probably soon.

In the MEANTIME, I'm going to make an assertion:

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

Anyone care to disagree, or propose a counter-example?

Don't know enough about this game to be sure, but if Ganon in brawl had that same advantage he still couldn't beat the top tiers (lol MK).

^^^ Also I agree with the Lucario sentiment. At the moment I don't like how it feels like the game doesn't even matter at early percents. You just have to put on your A game once hes over 100%.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Praying that they just buff Dr. Mario's run speed to be like, Luigi's or slightly worse than Mario's as opposed to SLOWER THAN DEDEDE. It would really patch up a lot of his problems i.e. no mobility. Air speed can stay.

 

[Thinkaman]

Breaks replays? Seriously? We can't watch our old replays anymore after each balance patch?

I mean, this is true in almost every game that features replays by nature.

Don't know enough about this game to be sure, but if Ganon in brawl had that same advantage he still couldn't beat the top tiers (lol MK).

He absolutely would have a favorable matchup against MK, particularly if tornado abuse is removed from the equation. Again, it's way too easy to underestimate the true value of simply dealing more damage; BBrawl Ganon was nowhere near 2.0x damage, and had a pretty even matchup against the barely nerfed MK.

Double damage Brawl Ganon would still lose to some characters, including Sheik, Olimar, and ICs, but not MK.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Lol there's no way WFT is below Ganon.. Heck or even that low to be grouped with the likes of Luigi, Mii Gunner, etc. Sigh if only people actually spent time with WFT you guys would see the amount of potential she has..

I think she's up there. The only thing that probably hurts her is her range and that she does better fighting backwards for some reason.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

@ Thinkaman this is really a fun scenario to think about. I was making a dumb joke with mario btw.

If the amount characters would be improved by could be quantified in a number, Shiek's number boost would be one of the lower ones. As she's top tier candidate atm, she'd obviously be beyond broken, of course, but the improved damage would break her current strings. she'd still have trouble killing.

Yoshi's D-Air would be LEGEND-AIRY, dealing 58-64 damage. u-tilt to u-tilt to upsmash would still exist against some characters. egg lay would be a problem earlier, and yoshi could put more pain in the egg before it cracks.

No matter who received the boost, an unchanged lucario would probably follow them as second best, just to punish them for their high damage.

 

[Conda]

It's a pretty hypothetical and silly thing to discuss IMO

 

[Nabbitnator]

I hope they give some characters more hitstun on their moves so more combos can be created. Aside from that one thing I hope they do for palutena is speed up the start up of her smashes (except upsmash.) they can keep the current recovery as that would now make sense.

 

[Terotrous]

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

I think Mii Swordfighter is probably the best example. His neutral is just so terrible that extra damage isn't going to change that much. Chakram does become very dangerous at least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't know if this would be an interest to anyone here, but after that whole voting tier list we did on /r/smashbros we decided that with Miis getting such terrible attention we would host an all Mii tournament for people to try them out. I promise to come back and let folks know how people felt about the various Miis and to let you guys know if we find anything competitively about any of them.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know if this would be an interest to anyone here, but after that whole voting tier list we did on /r/smashbros we decided that with Miis getting such terrible attention we would host an all Mii tournament for people to try them out. I promise to come back and let folks know how people felt about the various Miis and to let you guys know if we find anything competitively about any of them.

Are ya'll running that with customizations turned off? you can still use custom moves with miis with customizations turned off, so you would just be removing the need to rely on the honor system for equips.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if this would be an interest to anyone here, but after that whole voting tier list we did on /r/smashbros we decided that with Miis getting such terrible attention we would host an all Mii tournament for people to try them out. I promise to come back and let folks know how people felt about the various Miis and to let you guys know if we find anything competitively about any of them.

Predictions: >, >, and >.

Anybody up for Brawler Gunner Swordfighter?

 

[Thinkaman]

It's a pretty hypothetical and silly thing to discuss IMO

The reason I brought this up is because it is not unlikely that we will need to be able to analyze possible changes in the future--including the very near future.

I think considering specific hypothetical changes is a pointless rabbit hole, however fun.

But understanding the general implications of certain types of changes may soon prove topical.

 

[Terotrous]

The reason I brought this up is because it is not unlikely that we will need to be able to analyze possible changes in the future--including the very near future.

I think considering specific hypothetical changes is a pointless rabbit hole, however fun.

But understanding the general implications of certain types of changes may soon prove topical.

I assumed the point was to show that the game was balanced enough that any character getting a large buff would instantly become the best.

 

[PK Gaming]

The 1.0.4 japanese support page is up. It doesn't give us any information besides confirming that there are bugfix and balance changes that break replays and local wireless across versions. But it does mean it's coming, and probably soon.

In the MEANTIME, I'm going to make an assertion:

If any character had all their damages doubled (knockback growth ratios halved to remain constant), they would be the undisputed best character in the game with exclusively favorable matchups.

Anyone care to disagree, or propose a counter-example?

While I can't say for certain, my gut says no. There are some matchups that are flat out dictated by the neutral game. Damage/knockback buffs wouldn't give say... Robin an advantage in the Diddy matchup. Going even further, I doubt that someone like Olimar would end up being the best character with those buffs. His toolset is essentially the same, with tweaked properties. (That said, i'm not undervaluing the effects of doubling damage / knockback; doing that would give a character many, many lopsided matchups).

This seems like a fun thought exercise, I hope more people participate.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Isn't PM Bowser just Bowser with doubled stats?

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Robin's shield pressure would spiral out of control with sufficient extra damage. In my experience Robin doesn't get completely shut out in many situations.

I agree that Zelda, Olimar, and Swordfighter are the 3 characters who might not benefit fully from just dumping extra damage on them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Double damage with Jigglypuff, Thinkaman please don't give me ideas on how to destroy games ever again.

 

[Terotrous]

Double damage with Jigglypuff, Thinkaman please don't give me ideas on how to destroy games ever again.

Jiggs is definitely one of the characters who would become broken nonsense with double damage. 1-2 aerials breaks your shield, then Rest for a KO. You either keep her out the entire game or instantly die.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, now we have someone to fear if he gets a damage buff, because his attack speed is already amazing now, and if his power is buffed...well, let me say that he's something scary.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Jiggs is definitely one of the characters who would become broken nonsense with double damage. 1-2 aerials breaks your shield, then Rest for a KO. You either keep her out the entire game or instantly die.

Mega Jigglypuff would be canon only to Smash Bros.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Double damage Shiek lol

 

[Deleted member]

Double Damage would be the most broken thing to walk the earth. More shield damage? Check. More damage output at low percents so his "weakness" is almost gone? Check. Rage effect + Aura, essentially giving him even more of a damage and knock back multiplier? Check.
Other than that wouldn't gain much since his problems lie in Pikmin number/horrible AI, among other bad character traits.

 

[popsofctown]

As much as I hate Zelda and bash her all the time because I used to main her but now play real characters, I think she definitely would be able to channel double damage to win games. She has some approach mixups that lose out for her on average, and with double damage I think they'd win out for her on average, so she'd be able to get things done. In particular the invincibility on Nayru's love is a really powerful thing that is balanced by Nayru's not doing that much damage (and as far as I can tell, Nayru's Passion was forbidden from getting any invincibility frames just because that'd be imba)

Definitely more hopeful than buggedimar

 

[sunset_raven]

Double damage Villager: the impenetrable wall.

 

[Signia]

Wow, who cares what double damage would be like? Instead of spending your time talking about hypotheticals, how about testing things that are actually in the game? Anybody check to see if Falcon's fastfall uair is safe on shield, since it has the best combination of damage and landing animation?