Character Competitive Impressions

[Holder of the Heel]

Gimping little mac is totes easy with Fair, easier with drift kart frisbeeing. He doesn't stand... a ghost of a chance!

Even better is to just drop your obnoxiously large Kart with huge knockback at the ledge with your Up-B. It literally makes it impossible for them to get back from my experience with zero effort.

 

[MikeyAM]

No point making this comment unless you're willing to help us understand. I'm still going to think Junior is a low tier character until I "understand" how a character with nothing good (and I've played against a LOT of Bowser Jr) does anything. And if you dare try to make out that "cart" is the answer to all problems, then you'll just be showing your lack of understanding.

I don't think Bowser Jr is higher than mid tier / maybe high mid tier, but I feel like it's objectively false to say that he has "nothing good". uair, fair, and bair are all very good. nair is solid and dair is situationally useful. His tilt game is also above average, as ftilt is very fast and dtilt can't be spot dodged / has high priority. On top of that, mechakoopa is a legitimately useful item. There's been a lot of dispute about how good kart is, but, at the very least, it makes bowser jr's recovery very very good. Combined with his aerials, he has a strong off stage pressure game.

There are definitely gaps in his moveset -- not least of which is his difficulty in securing a kill -- but there are certainly worse characters in the game.

 

[Conda]

Small Skinny Mii Gunner is a scary thing, since I never really paid attention to the Miis until recently. Super spammable samus dtilt with slightly less range but really quick recover time. Does 12-13%. Yeah.

Captain Falcon-ish dash grab slide? Yeah. Super fun.

Samus Charge Shot, yet you're half the size and much faster than Samus.

Pk Fire / Arcfire that combusts on whiff, and can be shorthopped and used aerially and still still hit the ground and combust? And can be spammed to combut on whiff, while Arcfire cannot due to tomes mechanic? Hello PK Fire wall. Sure it's a one-hit knockback effect, but it's stil super useful and deals good damage for how quick and spammable it is. IMO the ultimate version of PK Fire ever, due to spammability and quickness. It's like Fire Arrows in awesomeness (my tie for ultimate version of pk fire ever, maybe slightly edging out).

Snake's grenades, chargable, with ridiculous Lucas-esque wavebouncing?

All this, and you have a reflector if you want one.




Recovery options aren't too good, but they're fast and recover a decent amount of height.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No point making this comment unless you're willing to help us understand. I'm still going to think Junior is a low tier character until I "understand" how a character with nothing good (and I've played against a LOT of Bowser Jr) does anything. And if you dare try to make out that "cart" is the answer to all problems, then you'll just be showing your lack of understanding.

Bowser Jr. has amazing item toss shenanigans to rack up damage quickly at low percents and really good edgeguarding. Both his Up-B and SideB give him fairly decent options to outmaneuver traps too.

Plus his tilts and aerials generally have good range.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The big heavy characters are continuously growing in my impressions. Have people seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc&feature=youtu.be

Crazy. Some of these mobility options that giant characters have now I think will trump the limitations of their stature. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Bowser and Donkey Kong in top tier with their customs. DK's customs in particular are absurd for mobility (down-b, side-b, and up-b can all give him landing options, along with his new d-air, which is what DK has always needed the most). Just ban FD.

basically this guy posted a video of what i was trying to tell you guys about.

 

[Conda]

Bowser Jr. has amazing item toss shenanigans to rack up damage quickly at low percents and really good edgeguarding. Both his Up-B and SideB give him fairly decent options to outmaneuver traps too.

Plus his tilts and aerials generally have good range.

I love mechakoopa. But it's not 'awesome item toss shenanigans'. The slowness of planting the mechakoopa and then grabbing it takes too long to be an abusable element of his toolset.

Especially with the Big Mechakoopa custom. I keep hearing people rave about it. It's like a longer 1 second fuse bomb for TLink -- you have to throw it SOON. And once you do, you gotta plant a new one and grab it, which takes time.

Compare this to Link or Peach or Megaman or Pac Man.

Bowser Jr is great, but Koopa Kart and mechakoopa won't be the crux of what makes him dominant in his character class. He's not an items abuser, as his aren't spammable and they are punishable in midrange.
Since you can only gather your mechakoopa in long range safe situations, you're really more of a close range fighter with occasional setup opportunities and range spam options. Very similar to Falco (blaster in this game is a long range 'when youre safe' option only'), Fox (same thing), Pit, Zelda, and Samus.

 

[MisterVisceral]

While he does have trouble killing, Junior has a hard time getting killed, too. Not only does he have that nifty damage mitigation mechanic, he's also tied for the fifth/sixth char in the game (tied with Zard). He's small, too.

Aerial game is solid, kart is solid (when used correctly), but certainly not the crux of his game.

Also, UpB is a reliable kill move, and not terribly hard to set up. Throw game is super weak, though. Only reconciliation for his grabs is that Dthrow is useful for racking up damage.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I love mechakoopa. But it's not 'awesome item toss shenanigans'. The slowness of planting the mechakoopa and then grabbing it takes too long to be an abusable element of his toolset.

Especially with the Big Mechakoopa custom. I keep hearing people rave about it. It's like a longer 1 second fuse bomb for TLink -- you have to throw it SOON. And once you do, you gotta plant a new one and grab it, which takes time.

Compare this to Link or Peach or Megaman or Pac Man.

Bowser Jr is great, but Koopa Kart and mechakoopa won't be the crux of what makes him dominant in his character class. He's not an items abuser, as his aren't spammable and they are punishable in midrange.
Since you can only gather your mechakoopa in long range safe situations, you're really more of a close range fighter with occasional setup opportunities and range spam options. Very similar to Falco (blaster in this game is a long range 'when youre safe' option only'), Fox (same thing), Pit, Zelda, and Samus.

for pit it more only when your safe. range is not the only indicator of safty for him since i use i to put myself in frame advantages or recover safly xd

 

[KuroganeHammer]

While he does have trouble killing, Junior has a hard time getting killed, too. Not only does he have that nifty damage mitigation mechanic, he's also tied for the fifth/sixth char in the game (tied with Zard). He's small, too.

Aerial game is solid, kart is solid (when used correctly), but certainly not the crux of his game.

Also, UpB is a reliable kill move, and not terribly hard to set up. Throw game is super weak, though. Only reconciliation for his grabs is that Dthrow is useful for racking up damage.

Please don't forget that the damage mitigation is only from below. 80% of the time you'll get hit from above and take more damage than usual.

This artificially decreases his "weight".

 

[Conda]

Please don't forget that the damage mitigation is only from below. 80% of the time you'll get hit from above and take more damage than usual.

This artificially decreases his "weight".

It does however make killing him off the top difficult as moves that usually send you up are from below, or have low hitboxes. Off the side, Bjr has ridiculous recovery so he's safe from there too. He has shortcomings but he definitely does feel like a heavy when you get knocked around and are trying to survive.

I don't think it makes too big a deal either way, though - it's not something you play around. The effects aren't big enough for options being weighted differently, so it's just something that 'happens' .

Bjr has some cool tools and alright customs. If the whole item thing doesn't work out as a prime abusable feature in his gameplay (as I feel currently, at least how I play him), then the side B where he tosses it is really good too. If your opponent grabs it, it explodes right away. Once it lands, it bounces a couple times until it explodes.

Piercing shot is great too, if just because it's faster and travels much faster -- actually good for occasional use like falcos laser - to gimp jumps, stop charges, and sometimes force approaches. And again - if using projectiles doesn't really work out to be a powerful tool in his metagame, he has that wind gun instead as an option offstage.

His melee tools are super solid, he's just a clunk bucket but no reason why that can't work out well. Melee Ganon kind of felt that way to me.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like he doesn't have ridiculous recovery considering hitting him from it sends him to his grave and he doesn't seem to have any invincibility from them. Generally telegraphed movements while doing so.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I feel like he doesn't have ridiculous recovery considering hitting him from it sends him to his grave and he doesn't seem to have any invincibility from them. Generally telegraphed movements while doing so.

bj has more than one recovery move

 

[Shaya]

Who knew. I sure didn't. I was referring to both up and side-bs.

 

[Conda]

I feel like he doesn't have ridiculous recovery considering hitting him from it sends him to his grave and he doesn't seem to have any invincibility from them. Generally telegraphed movements while doing so.

I was speaking of his horizontal recovery, which consists of koopa kart + added third jump. It's not just the vrooming along of the side b that gives him recovery, but it's the added third jump. You don't just use your double jump if you have it when you hop out of the kart, you get a jump to use no matter what. So if you used your double jump, you'll get a new jump anyway with side B.

If you still have your double jump, you use that first and then koopa kart. There's no way you're not coming back after that. You rarely need to use up B when recovering horizontally, which is good because you can use it was a mixup option instead. It's good to not be gasping for air offstage (fox and falco used to be but aren't anymore thanks to Side b not putting you in freefall), and Bowser Jr definitely doesn't.

He's always got another jump, so long as he hasn't used Koopa Kart before landing already.

If you take the custom Side Bs, the third jump you get is nerfed a lot, likely keeping the default as the best one for recovery purposes as you get a nice full jump out of it and good mobility.

The kart also acts as a third jump in CQC situations or landing situations. You can kinda float around above someone by using your 2nd jump, then koopa kart to halt vertical descent, and then the third jump from kart. You can land at any point instead of continuing the jump chain.

This is a powerful tool, though of course the kart is shiny in other ways so ramming it into people is how it's mostly been used so far. It has other great elements, though, and movement juking is one of them.

 

[Shaya]

And is there anything that stops me from hitting him out of his cart/the jump he gets out of his cart?
Doesn't seem to be.

 

[Conda]

And is there anything that stops me from hitting him out of his cart/the jump he gets out of his cart?
Doesn't seem to be.

Well yeah I mean he gets the normal airdodge or attack options, or FF and up b to dodge your attack. He's not gasping so he is usually free to move around and let you try and attack. He's able to respond since he's in a jump, not a special move state (like sheik's bouncing fish or whatnot). You can get your third jump right away with Kart, or you can zoom forward with the kart for a bit and jump when you need to. Or you can commit/punish with the drift attack midair while recovering if it'll beat your opponents attack. It all depends on what your opponent is doing.

As you can see, due to these calculations you need to make, it's a move that requires skill and understanding to use and it's simply 'awesome' like bouncing fish or teleport. But it does present options, and a lot is possible out of it.

 

[Shaya]

Which if your character is capable of doing anything off stage, involves likely stringing you there and being in your face, or knows the trajectory of the kart and knows the optimal timings of your third jump (it's like wario in brawl but considerably worse) and whack you.

 

[Conda]

Which if your character is capable of doing anything off stage, involves likely stringing you there and being in your face, or knows the trajectory of the kart and knows the optimal timings of your third jump (it's like wario in brawl but considerably worse) and whack you.

Well of course, if you're capable of edge guarding then you can go ahead and do it against Bowser Jr. But the Bowser Jr player can change how he is recovering to react. If this was an unalterable horizontal recovery move then yes, it'd be predictable to edgeguard against like Phantasm or DK Tornado or PKT2 or whatnot.

But Bjr recovers horizontally similar to the way characters with multiple jumps do. You can change your mind at any time as Bowser Jr along your trajectory back to the stage. You can go higher, lower, faster, or slower. You can use that third jump early or use it closer to the edge as an airdodge.

There's a bunch you can do to react to what is happening, which many characters can't during their linear recovery (it sucks seeing Pit get knocked away from the ledge like melee Fox/Falco). Once Bjr players start seeing his Koopa Kart as a third jump, it'll see more safe and gameplay-altering uses.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser Jr. can recover from anywhere with proper use of double jump, side B (essentially a 3rd jump) and Up B, a better character to compare his recovery to would be Luigi.

... Whose recovery is also mediocre.

Doesn't matter too much, recoveries in this game are quite good, but so is edgeguarding I guess.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

My tier list right now.

Low

Lol there's no way WFT is below Ganon.. Heck or even that low to be grouped with the likes of Luigi, Mii Gunner, etc. Sigh if only people actually spent time with WFT you guys would see the amount of potential she has..

 

[Conda]

Bowser Jr. can recover from anywhere with proper use of double jump, side B (essentially a 3rd jump) and Up B, a better character to compare his recovery to would be Luigi.

... Whose recovery is also mediocre.

Doesn't matter too much, recoveries in this game are quite good, but so is edgeguarding I guess.

Luigi's method of recovering horizontally are special-state moves that don't give him a jump state. If Bjr is being guarded against, he can turn his koopa kart into an airdodge jump or do a bunch of other things. He's not locked to tornado or crappy slow loogie bullet. I get what you mean though, Pikachu is similar to Luigi in this way as is Fox. But getting a true third jump is the stand out feature here.

Yeah, if you get knocked away then you've just got your Up b. There's risk of course, but he has options. It's up to player skill to take those options and become confident in using them competitively. If he didn't have these options then yeah, that'd be the dooming thing as there would be no potential for skilled players to utilize. Options are everything.

Also, with this third jump, his jumps have a very noticeable vitality to them compared to the other multi-jumping heavies who get very weak jumps as their multiple jumps.

 

[MisterVisceral]

I feel like he doesn't have ridiculous recovery considering hitting him from it sends him to his grave and he doesn't seem to have any invincibility from them. Generally telegraphed movements while doing so.

Minus the "generally telegraphed movements," this really could refer to any character. It is literally the definition of gimping.

 

[Shaya]

Characters who can drift favourably horizontally (both backwards and forwards), can afford to use multiple actions reactively to opponent's actions (good aerials or a vertical stall option for example), can maintain their second jump while also having a sufficiently fast/invincible/safe vertical recovery option.

This doesn't sound like Bowser Jr, he is overly telegraphed in his actions. Hence someone that seems pretty gimpable.

 

[MikeyAM]

And is there anything that stops me from hitting him out of his cart/the jump he gets out of his cart?
Doesn't seem to be.

Generally, let's assume that you're facing a competent opponent who will react appropriately when you come out to pressure off stage. Assuming that, the main thing that's going to stop you from hitting bowser jr out of kart is that he will cancel kart as soon as you start to pressure.

So now you have both characters off stage with a full range of options, and, as we've previously established, Bowser Jr is stronger than the majority of the cast in the air. Which means that the other thing that will stop you from hitting bowser jr out of kart is that threatening to do so is equally as dangerous for you as it is for him best case scenario. Worst case, pressuring him off stage is actually a bad decision for you depending on who you're playing.

Additionally, Bowser jr's up b recovery is also very dangerous off stage. The explosion is a strong kill move by itself and can net early kills by causing stage spikes.

I think, for the vast majority of the cast, attempting to gimp bowser jr off stage will be so unsafe that the better option will almost always be to try to punish his get up from the ledge.

That said being gimped after up b by a greninja hydro pump or mario fludd / cape I could see being a real threat, since Bowser Jr is kind of forced into using up b as a kill move. If you whiff it on those characters, it could definitely be a stock.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, I generally consider playing against opponent's winning tournaments using secondaries as competent.
And we established Bowser Jr is stronger than the majority of the cast in the air? That sounds even more questionable to me than his recovery, which has all the options of Wario essentially, but not even a fraction of the aerial versatility of Wario to back it up to make it near infallible.

 

[san.]

Bowser Jr. seems solid to me, but he hasn't made me think "wow" yet. He seems like he has a bunch of good moves, but I don't really understand his game plan during a match. Use his aerial superiority? Bait with projectiles and punish? That sounds like something he can do, but not what he's about if that makes any sense. Can Any Jr. mains enlighten me on this? Edit: Just read Conda's post, I understand now.

Now,
Of Ike's customs, I think people here know least about his 3rd: Aether Wave. It's not dominant, but there is lots of potential to be had as a contender for the best.

Basics:
-Vertical reach only slightly below the original. Great->almost great.
-Horizontal recovery = barely any, but you can edge some distance with ledge snapping. Max horizontal distance = ~30% of a battlefield platform (lol)
-Fastest of all the Aethers.
-Shoots a projectile out upon landing.
-Hits people out instead of combo. 6% initial hit, ~4-8%, strongest when close. Largest % = 22% without the initial hit.
-Can still (barely) reverse aether offstage.

Unique qualities:
-Longest initial hitbox of the 3. In Ike speak, the range is slightly less than his ftilt+jab1 range combined while being as fast as ftilt.
-The projectile deals bonus damage to shields, takes 2-3 to break it. If you shield it when it's landing on you, it leaves the shield in critical position. High change to shield poke as well.
-The projectile is counted as physical, so bucket, reflecting, etc. doesn't work.
-The projectile is purely horizontal. It goes through slanted platforms and obstacles as if they weren't there.
-Super armor both when the initial hitbox comes out (loses it when he begins to jump) and after landing.

Weaknesses:
-More reliance on sideB to recover and susceptible to gimps. With Aether1, you can afford to fast fall to avoid gimps, and can start the aether farther away from the stage. Might have to switch to SideB1 or switch to another Aether if it gets bad. It's speed needs to be utilized to prevent the opponent from even getting a chance to jump off after him.
-Attack can be rolled through, jumped over, and punished out of shield (although it messes up the shield). Still in Ike's favor to use it, but there are enough weaknesses to avoid being able to spam it.

The goal is to use it at mid-long range at opportune times, pretty much any time you want if the foe is above you, and of course as a potent edgeguard (along with pretty much every other move he has). It helps disrupts the opponent's neutral game along with Ike's SideB2 (that's weak to hit once they notice you charging it) and the tricky wind eruption that screws up positioning and provides easy gimps. It can be used at any time and punishes very easily, so it's also a great damage wracking tool. It will take a while to master it, but it will be a spectacle once someone does.

 

[Conda]

Yes, I generally consider playing against opponent's winning tournaments using secondaries as competent.
And we established Bowser Jr is stronger than the majority of the cast in the air? That sounds even more questionable to me than his recovery, which has all the options of Wario essentially, but not even a fraction of the aerial versatility of Wario to back it up to make it near infallible.

Regarding his aerials, he does have disjoint and range which is something Wario doesn't have, as well as safe no-lag aerials in multiple directions which is unique for a heavy (though Wario's tricked out a bit in this area too, but he's definitely more short ranged. They're not too comparable otherwise so the comparing stops here for me).

The lingering Fair can be used as a projectile blocker when used like this, and can help when recovering too if you're being pelted with weak attacks (or kart spin works too).
Again, his recovery options aren't super overpowered and super bang-on (it's not like we're saying he has Lucario-like recovery), but he has numerous options and is flexible aerially and that's where his power comes from when it comes to recovering.

Heck, a lot of the time when recovering solely vertically, you can opt to Kart->triple jump instead of Up b, so long as you haven't used kart since landing. Yeah there's a limitation, but we're not saying he's broken. We're saying smart players will find themselves with a bunch of unique tools at their disposal when it comes to mobility and recovering.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doesn't matter too much, recoveries in this game are quite good, but so is edgeguarding I guess.

There's only a few really good recoveries that actually are good against edgeguarding. And those characters are probably underrated to varying degrees.

And by that, I mean characters like:


These are basically among the few characters (I probably forgot maybe one or two people) that are practically immune to edgeguarding played correctly, and having a quality like that is pretty undervalued in this game, when you translate it to overall effectiveness in getting out of traps.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Can someone explain why so many people think Charizard is terrible? I get that he has laggy aerials and a lot of his moves are unsafe, but he's pretty fast for his weight, has a good recovery, and isn't as big a target as the other heavies. He seems to me to be a hard read based character with the durability and kill power to get away with a few mistakes. I get the feeling that he's like Ganondorf, but less exploitable in neutral, yet I see tier lists where he's lower than Ganon and near the bottom. He seems to be mid-tier to me, low-mid at worst.

 

[Conda]

There's only a few really good recoveries that actually are good against edgeguarding. And those characters are probably underrated to varying degrees.

And by that, I mean characters like:


These are basically among the few characters (I probably forgot maybe one or two people) that are practically immune to edgeguarding played correctly, and having a quality like that is pretty undervalued in this game, when you translate it to overall effectiveness in getting out of traps.

I've found Samus to be pretty edgeguardable. Mainly due to tether not being able to be used while in tumble - you have to airdodge or do an attack first after being hit to be able to tether recover to the ledge. Many times I couldn't grab the ledge in time when being guarded as I had to first perform an attack or airdodge, and THEN I could tether, but by then I'd be out of range.

It just feels awkward, but I'm not a samus main so I'm still in that awkward territory with her zair/tether mechanics (same with link/tink).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've found Samus to be pretty edgeguardable. Mainly due to tether not being able to be used while in tumble - you have to airdodge or do an attack first after being hit to be able to tether recover to the ledge. Many times I couldn't grab the ledge in time when being guarded as I had to first perform an attack or airdodge, and THEN I could tether, but by then I'd be out of range.

Bombs are REALLY REALLY GOOD. That's mostly all I have to say. Also you can get out of tumble by wiggling the control stick, so that's not even an issue.

 

[Rafitak]

Can someone explain why so many people think Charizard is terrible? I get that he has laggy aerials and a lot of his moves are unsafe, but he's pretty fast for his weight, has a good recovery, and isn't as big a target as the other heavies. He seems to me to be a hard read based character with the durability and kill power to get away with a few mistakes. I get the feeling that he's like Ganondorf, but less exploitable in neutral, yet I see tier lists where he's lower than Ganon and near the bottom. He seems to be mid-tier to me, low-mid at worst.

Tbh, its still early. Characters we thought that were horrible are doing well. In my opinion, Char is great but has not had a great showing in tournaments. Earlier on last month we felt Palutena was awful yet now she's seems far better than worst.

Take note, that most people playing Zard are usually Flare blitzing err'day...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Except Flare Blitz is good and Dragon Rush is even better. >.>

 

[Rafitak]

Except Flare Blitz is good and Dragon Rush is even better. >.>

I meant continuous spamming. My apologies for not being specific

 

[IsmaR]

Flare Blitz inadvertently works for safely building rage, too. (Gen 1 flashbacks why)

That and the Rock Smash armor make Zard the "Hit me, see if I care" character behind Shieuldk. Only not really.

Bombs are REALLY REALLY GOOD. That's mostly all I have to say. Also you can get out of tumble by wiggling the control stick, so that's not even an issue.

Bombs aren't as bad as Brawl, however Bomb jumping/stalling/recovering with them isn't as effective as it used to be.

 

[san.]

Bombs are REALLY REALLY GOOD. That's mostly all I have to say. Also you can get out of tumble by wiggling the control stick, so that's not even an issue.

I wish, haven't been able to get out of tumble like that.

 

[Kofu]

There's only a few really good recoveries that actually are good against edgeguarding. And those characters are probably underrated to varying degrees.

And by that, I mean characters like:


These are basically among the few characters (I probably forgot maybe one or two people) that are practically immune to edgeguarding played correctly, and having a quality like that is pretty undervalued in this game, when you translate it to overall effectiveness in getting out of traps.

Villager's default recovery really isn't safe against edgeguarding. Sure, it's extrely mobile, but it's also quite slow. Honestly it's a lot like ROB's but withore mobility in exchange for less ability to fight back. Extreme Balloon Trip, on the other hand, is quite safe. You may have been referring to that and if so I apologize.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wish, haven't been able to get out of tumble like that.

They could have changed it for all I know, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. But it's just been that way for like what, all the previous Smash games? I'd be very surprised if they actually removed tumble recovery.

Villager's default recovery really isn't safe against edgeguarding. Sure, it's extrely mobile, but it's also quite slow. Honestly it's a lot like ROB's but withore mobility in exchange for less ability to fight back. Extreme Balloon Trip, on the other hand, is quite safe. You may have been referring to that and if so I apologize.

Unless I missed something, SideB demands quite a bit of respect...on top of just going really far. Default Up-B is punishable, yes.

 

[-RedX-]

Bombs are REALLY REALLY GOOD. That's mostly all I have to say. Also you can get out of tumble by wiggling the control stick, so that's not even an issue.

Can't wiggle out of tumble no more. Unless it's in the Wii U version for whatever reason.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can't wiggle out of tumble no more. Unless it's in the Wii U version for whatever reason.

Well that's kinda annoying. Guess one more reason it sucks to have laggy aerials in Super Trap and Footsie Bros when that makes it harder to fastfall to the ground.