Character Competitive Impressions

[san.]

These are the kinds of things I was talking about before that benefits Ike even without the landing lag changes:

 

[Woohoo982]

....a better up-tilt is a hard buff? Explain.

are you high
i was talking about f-smash

 

[Quickhero]

Emblem Lord is right about customs. 4 DLC characters without customs is pretty significant. I can't support customs if their not going to be given to DLC characters.

I've been neutral towards customs but now I'm leaning a little towards pro-ban. It's not necessarily because it's a broken concept, but it's definitely starting to become something more and more worrysome as, quite frankly, jank custom moves like Kong Cyclone, Heavy Skull Bash, Jumbo Hoops, and Grounding Spin Dash become more and more populating and those moves definitely seem to hinder the overall balanced game default has to offer. Sure, people like Kirby and Ganondorf would prefer custom moves and it helps their game tremendously, I find that they work fine in a default environment as well and, while I know we're sacrificing Palutena, I believe it will lead to a more refined and healthier metagame. Also the reason why I quoted Legendary is because I agree that 4 DLC characters without customs to handle these jank (like Roy not having an up-b for windboxes) actually does suck and is at least worth a mention.

That being said, major tournaments should start running customs until after EVO, since well...EVO is using customs. Wouldn't be fair to just remove tournaments as a way to practice for EVO, now would it? If the custom meta proves me wrong and that it is just as (currently) healthy as the default meta, I'll be all for it. If not, well at least we'll know from EVO.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Emblem Lord is right about customs. 4 DLC characters without customs is pretty significant. I can't support customs if their not going to be given to DLC characters.

They're DLC, though. Mewtwo's customs were patched out, which is saying something. I agree with @ ItsRainingGravy entirely, we should just work around the issue instead of just banning the characters or the customs. Of course, the dlc characters will be at a disadvantage, but that hasn't stopped us before.

 

[Zelder]

Emblem Lord is right about customs. 4 DLC characters without customs is pretty significant. I can't support customs if their not going to be given to DLC characters.

4 out of 55 characters is significant if you don't understand numbers.

Also, as much as I love Mewtwo, customs aren't going to bring him to the table. Unless he got Palutena tier specials, he's still gonna be booty.

 

[PUK]

I've been neutral towards customs but now I'm leaning a little towards pro-ban. It's not necessarily because it's a broken concept, but it's definitely starting to become something more and more worrysome as, quite frankly, jank custom moves like Kong Cyclone, Heavy Skull Bash, Jumbo Hoops, and Grounding Spin Dash become more and more populating and those moves definitely seem to hinder the overall balanced game default has to offer. Sure, people like Kirby and Ganondorf would prefer custom moves and it helps their game tremendously, I find that they work fine in a default environment as well and, while I know we're sacrificing Palutena, I believe it will lead to a more refined and healthier metagame. Also the reason why I quoted Legendary is because I agree that 4 DLC characters without customs to handle these jank (like Roy not having an up-b for windboxes) actually does suck and is at least worth a mention.

That being said, major tournaments should start running customs until after EVO, since well...EVO is using customs. Wouldn't be fair to just remove tournaments as a way to practice for EVO, now would it? If the custom meta proves me wrong and that it is just as (currently) healthy as the default meta, I'll be all for it. If not, well at least we'll know from EVO.

But why the lack of option of 4 characters ( meant to be optional) should stop the others to work with the options they have.
I mean, if your brother can't go to a party because your mother saw hum smoking it shouldn't stop you.
And i want to attract your attention on the fact that the janky custom are janky because the weapon against them are rare/inefficient and so roy, ryu, lucas and M2 are not the only one who struggle against them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know I probably shouldn't get involved, but how is Bowser good at all?

Seems like one of the worst characters in the game to me (and everyone else here, I'm pretty sure).

Big and tall, can't land ever, mediocre aerials (b-air has power yeah but landing it is unnecessarily difficult). A pretty good poke game, I guess, with jab, ground speed, pivot options and Fire Breath, but seems to be the very definition of mediocrity otherwise.

Yeah Bowser's landing options are nearly as bad as Little Mac's without customs, recovery is arguably worse than Mac's in certain matchups, and his options in neutral while not necessarily awful in a vacuum are pretty linear.

I think Bowser needs a serious landing lag reduction on B-air (it's like 40 frames landing lag...yeah). Not to mention less landing lag on aerial Up-B so that recovering high with him is viable. His extremely awful negative state is the main thing that holds him back. He's kinda like Zangief, except without the EX SPD on wakeup to force people to be careful.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Yeah Bowser's landing options are nearly as bad as Little Mac's without customs, recovery is arguably worse than Mac's in certain matchups, and his options in neutral while not necessarily awful in a vacuum are pretty linear.

I think Bowser needs a serious landing lag reduction on B-air (it's like 40 frames landing lag...yeah). Not to mention less landing lag on aerial Up-B so that recovering high with him is viable. His extremely awful negative state is the main thing that holds him back. He's kinda like Zangief, except without the EX SPD on wakeup to force people to be careful.

I thought dk was Zangief and Bowser was Hugo.

 

[Project Quarantine]

are you high
i was talking about f-smash

Bowser didn't get an fsmash buff in this patch. Besides, it would need a 10 frame startup and endlag reduction for that move to become a game changer. Also, I would recommend not asking people if they were high. Just saying from experience

 

[S_B]

are you high
i was talking about f-smash

Bowser's fsmash hasn't changed since release except for maybe a 1% buff a few patches ago. What are you referring to?

 

[dean.]

He's referring to changes from Brawl I imagine.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Emblem Lord

Life isn't fair, kid.

I play ROB, Kirby, Roy, and Ike, and these 4 aren't as "good" as characters like Sheik or Rosalina. The Sheik players have a distinct advantage over me, when I play them. That isn't "fair", right? But I'm not going to pout about fairness, in a fighting game, seeing that it is impossible to balance it anyway. The disadvantage is my fault because I main characters that aren't as good as the top tier. It's my fault if I play Roy, when he doesn't have custom moves.

Because you are so good and have learned every single thing about all of your characters and their match ups when the game hasn't even been out a year and there's no possible way you might simply not be good as the sheik player you are up against.

You both play flawlessly and it just so happens sheik is an inherently better character amirite?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Bowser needs an Up B landing lag reduction, landing lag reduction on most of his aerials, better hitboxes for his Nair (especially diagonally down and in front of him), less bkb on his Uthrow so he can have early percent followups after it, and Giga Boswer's Side B (because the bouncing animation he does after his current Side B is dumb).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

4 out of 55 characters is significant if you don't understand numbers.

Also, as much as I love Mewtwo, customs aren't going to bring him to the table. Unless he got Palutena tier specials, he's still gonna be booty.

It is significant there's 4 characters in this game who are not designed the same as the rest of the cast. They haven't addressed customs for dlc and don't even seem interested in doing so. So far the trend is no dlc for custom characters.

They're DLC, though. Mewtwo's customs were patched out, which is saying something. I agree with @ ItsRainingGravy entirely, we should just work around the issue instead of just banning the characters or the customs. Of course, the dlc characters will be at a disadvantage, but that hasn't stopped us before.

There's really no work around. It's either customs or non customs. If nintendo isn't going to provide dlc characters with customs moves they shouldn't be legal.

 

[TriTails]

It'd be unfair to ban DLC characters in customs environtment because they have 'no customs'...

I mean, they are off 8 moves out of... like, 12 special moves and 30-like default moves? They may be wrecked in customs environtment, but that isn't a reason strong enough to ban them. If that were the case, let's ban Brawl Ganondorf from tourneys because lolBrawl.

They just have to work it around. Either they drop the character or go 1111 against customs. No reason to ban them in customs tourneys because they are missing 8 moves that are mostly midifications. If we want to ban them, let's ban people who wanted to go default in a custom tourney because 'they don't use customs'.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

If Palutena, Mega Man, and the Miis were the only characters with custom moves, I seriously doubt that most people would be complaining about allowing them in a competitive environment. Because they would be (and still are) unique aspects to those characters.

But because everyone in the initial roster has custom moves, and the 4 DLC characters don't, a good amount of people are up-in-arms about custom moves now.

Granted, this doesn't take into account the hassle of unlocking custom moves (which is an issue), nor does this account for how those characters I mentioned have more unique custom moves in comparison to the rest of the cast (which is a non-issue).

But still, I find the complaint of "Because X character doesn't have custom moves, nobody should" a rather silly one, when I bet that nobody would've complained were it the reverse scenario.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

DLC characters not having customs is realistically a non-issue.

There is one and only one thing that matters with customs: are more characters viable with customs on rather than them off? That answer is still yes. Ryu and Roy don't suddenly become unusable garbage with customs turned on. Do they get worse? Yes. So does Meta Knight. They're still viable though. That's the only cut off line that matters. Its no unless "fair" to them than it is to Meta Knight.

 

[Big O]

I'm not sure why people are even humoring the thought of banning custom moves because dlc characters don't have them. The whole point of playing customs on is to play with more options available to you. Why forgo all those extra options (maybe even some you happen to like) for like 50 something characters because 4 don't have any? Are we going to ban all dlc characters because not everyone can be bothered to pay for said characters too? Not a 100% analogous comparison, but I'm sure you guys can understand my point.

Whether or not we decide to adopt customs or not post-EVO, the lack of dlc character custom moves shouldn't have any bearing on the matter.

 

[Nu~]

What are the people's thoughts on Lucas?
If anyone ends up being a sleeper out of all of the DLC char caters, it's gonna be him. He can zone you out with pk Fire spam and rope snake until you make a mistake for him to punish with a grab -> heavy damage/kill.

His moves flow together so smoothly and he has a wide range of options. This character needs to be talked about more.

 

[san.]

The only characters who really benefited in customs from this patch more than usual are likely only Charizard and Ike anyways. Ike's close combat sideB starts earlier and Charizard's throws provide much better trapping opportunities.

The problem with customs is that people dislike overly good moves for good reason, and customs potentially allows for more of that. I still think it's good to make use of as much as the game can offer competitively as possible, though, even if the best characters may shift.

 

[Shaya]

A friendly reminder that custom legality discussion (it's tame atm, even if some things have been provocative; thank you everyone else) is not okay.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Because you are so good and have learned every single thing about all of your characters and their match ups when the game hasn't even been out a year and there's no possible way you might simply not be good as the sheik player you are up against.

You both play flawlessly and it just so happens sheik is an inherently better character amirite?

I don't mean to be snarky, but can you please rephrase you comment. It's a tad confusing in what point you are trying to get across.

What I was saying in my original post was the game is unbalanced. There are characters that are just better than others. Characters like Game and Watch, Toon Link, and Sheik have dairs that throw them downward. That is just the way the character is built. Their dairs are very situational, have terrible landing lag, can S/D you, and have a lot of commitment. They were built that way. The DLC characters were built to not have customs. We can't change that. It is just a fault of the character that we as players must work around.

So this is my personal opinion. Sheik is a good character. Sheik has a good matchup against my main ROB. I have to work around ROB's faults in order to win. It isn't fair that I have to work harder than my opponent in order to win, but that is the nature of fighting games. Ok, so Ryu and Roy have issues against windboxes. They just have to work around it.

Oh yeah and the top tier characters have less than average customs. Customs, although not intentional, help out the characters that really need it. Mii x3, Kirby, Ganon, Palutina, G&W, Marth, DK, Villager, Wii Fit, Mega Man, Ike, etc are all helped by customs. None of them are OP, but they at least get more options to combat the top tiers. You'd be hurting at least 13 characters to help 4.

 

[Thinkaman]

Final 2 cents:

If we're banning custom characters because DLC characters don't have custom versions, we also need to ban Doc, Lucina, and Dark Pit.

It's not fair that those characters have clone versions, and other characters don't.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Customs should still be available, even if the dlc characters can't use them. They are still good enough to be played, and all it means is that they'll need to work around the trouble and play better.

 

[DunnoBro]

It should also be noted DLC characters are popular by nature and awarded special developmental attention in contrast to the rest of the cast. I think most of us would give up our customs for a finely tuned kit of specials AND normals like DLC chars get.

I mean some DLC specials are definitely on-par with the most controversial customs. Blazer is essentially a toned down dark fist (but on a character who builds damage better and has a better shield/grab game)

And don't tell me Ryu's specials aren't rage inducing. Or dying to roy fsmash "at 30% because of one read" isn't the exact phrase used to explain why some customs were dumb.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Top players should really be more cognizant of nocebo and placebo effects because the community at large takes their opinions with a lot more weight.

Acid told me what I said. He mains . I don't. My bad LOL.

 

[Pacack]

Acid told me what I said. He mains . I don't. My bad LOL.

Hey, Seagull. What do you think of the new patch?

 

[FullMoon]

What are the people's thoughts on Lucas?
If anyone ends up being a sleeper out of all of the DLC char caters, it's gonna be him. He can zone you out with pk Fire spam and rope snake until you make a mistake for him to punish with a grab -> heavy damage/kill.

His moves flow together so smoothly and he has a wide range of options. This character needs to be talked about more.

My thoughts on Lucas is it is is that he's powerful but lacks some range. Z-Air kinda compensates for that but overall he's pretty short ranged and his D-Smash doesn't cover rolls very well. Finally, terrible grab, but it's still pretty usable especially if you can bait your opponents well.

Otherwise I think he's pretty solid. PK Fire is a great safe tool in neutral, Z-Air has no lag and his moves hit really hard and he has 3 kill throws which is amazing.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I don't mean to be snarky, but can you please rephrase you comment. It's a tad confusing in what point you are trying to get across.

What I was saying in my original post was the game is unbalanced. There are characters that are just better than others. Characters like Game and Watch, Toon Link, and Sheik have dairs that throw them downward. That is just the way the character is built. Their dairs are very situational, have terrible landing lag, can S/D you, and have a lot of commitment. They were built that way. The DLC characters were built to not have customs. We can't change that. It is just a fault of the character that we as players must work around.

So this is my personal opinion. Sheik is a good character. Sheik has a good matchup against my main ROB. I have to work around ROB's faults in order to win. It isn't fair that I have to work harder than my opponent in order to win, but that is the nature of fighting games. Ok, so Ryu and Roy have issues against windboxes. They just have to work around it.

Oh yeah and the top tier characters have less than average customs. Customs, although not intentional, help out the characters that really need it. Mii x3, Kirby, Ganon, Palutina, G&W, Marth, DK, Villager, Wii Fit, Mega Man, Ike, etc are all helped by customs. None of them are OP, but they at least get more options to combat the top tiers. You'd be hurting at least 13 characters to help 4.

I'm saying you can't honestly say one character is 'better' than another unless both you and your opponent play a flawless game. A game with zero mistakes and 100% perfect accuracy capitalizing on every single opportunity whatsoever. And then repeat that feat over and over and get the exact same result. If you have somehow done this, then sure, proclaim one character is better. But I'm gonna need some proof.

But you haven't. Nobody has. Tomorrow a rob player could very well learn a way to counter sheik, then beat ZeRo in the next tournament.

You could say that you, personally, have trouble against sheik as rob, and that might be an honest statement. But there is no objective way to determine if sheik is inherently better than rob. You're just losing to a superior opponent and blaming it on a character.

 

[Blobface]

A little perspective:

Customs that have unanimously (both sides) been called problematic: Kong Cyclone, Heavy Skull Bash, Villager camping (both customs involved).

Villagers ledge camping was likely invalidated by the 1.08 patch due to the new fuel mechanics.

Anyway, @ Nu~ and co.: You mentioned using Juggling to counter Ganon, and I feel that would be a bad idea. Ganondorf has Wizkick, which, while a commitment, still is crazy powerful and demands respect. I don't doubt that Pacman has ways to fight Ganon, but I feel the most effective way to fight him would be to pitch a tent and make it as hard to approach as possible.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm saying you can't honestly say one character is 'better' than another unless both you and your opponent play a flawless game. A game with zero mistakes and 100% perfect accuracy capitalizing on every single opportunity whatsoever. And then repeat that feat over and over and get the exact same result. If you have somehow done this, then sure, proclaim one character is better. But I'm gonna need some proof.

Actually, the ability to be imperfect is why most top tiers are so good. They can screw up and not be in an awful position.

ROB has to play much, much more perfect than sheik.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord

Life isn't fair, kid.

I play ROB, Kirby, Roy, and Ike, and these 4 aren't as "good" as characters like Sheik or Rosalina. The Sheik players have a distinct advantage over me, when I play them. That isn't "fair", right? But I'm not going to pout about fairness, in a fighting game, seeing that it is impossible to balance it anyway. The disadvantage is my fault because I main characters that aren't as good as the top tier. It's my fault if I play Roy, when he doesn't have custom moves.

Kid?

Interesting.

Anyway I stand by my stance. That said I live in a very try hard region that will probably NEVER turn off customs and I see no need to try to convert anyone to my point of view. So for all the pro-custom warriors, believe me I have no intention of debating you. And if you are intent on debating me then I will just put you on my ignore list.

Glad we got that cleared up.

 

[Ffamran]

Acid told me what I said. He mains . I don't. My bad LOL.

I think Acid's just overreacting and seeing placebo effects. Even if there were stealth changes to how you can DI in this game, Captain Falcon's minor nerf to his Uair is nothing compared to what Diddy's been getting or Sheik losing one of her few kill options after 1.0.6. Funny how Roy's pretty much a Captain Falcon with a sword. If anything, Acid should co-main or secondary either character. Captain Falcon's still a good character like how Diddy's still a good character, so switching entirely is kind of a waste of investment he has in his Captain Falcon. Now, if say, Acid in some bizarro world mained Zelda and she was severely nerfed in this patch for no reason, then Acid should definitely look into playing another character.

 

[Nu~]

A little perspective:

Customs that have unanimously (both sides) been called problematic: Kong Cyclone, Heavy Skull Bash, Villager camping (both customs involved).

Villagers ledge camping was likely invalidated by the 1.08 patch due to the new fuel mechanics.

Anyway, @ Nu~ and co.: You mentioned using Juggling to counter Ganon, and I feel that would be a bad idea. Ganondorf has Wizkick, which, while a commitment, still is crazy powerful and demands respect. I don't doubt that Pacman has ways to fight Ganon, but I feel the most effective way to fight him would be to pitch a tent and make it as hard to approach as possible.

That wasn't me who supported that notion, it was pacack. I don't believe that trying to go in guns ablazing is the best way to fight a Ganon. I support laming him out with the trampoline and hydrant. If you need to approach, make them near-unpunishable with DITCIT fruit and running behind fair'd hydrants.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Actually, the ability to be imperfect is why most top tiers are so good. They can screw up and not be in an awful position.

ROB has to play much, much more perfect than sheik.

So we can objectively determine that sheik is more forgiving of mistakes than rob might be. That doesn't mean sheik is inherently better. Just that someone playing rob would have less of a chance of winning if both participants made an equal number of mistakes.

Saying sheik is better because you can make mistakes and still win is WAY off base

 

[NairWizard]

I'm entirely neutral on customs, but I want to clarify for the sake of discussion that it seems like the argument should be less "DLC characters don't have customs, so customs on isn't fair for them" (which is what was literally said) and more "it doesn't seem like customs are as balanced as we thought; take DLC characters, for instance, who are subpar in a customs metagame due to a lack of options."

Whether or not that claim is true, I don't know (Ryu certainly doesn't struggle to face some customs characters, though others can be irksome I'd imagine), but it's the only legitimate argument that I could piece together from that perspective.

 

[LimitCrown]

I don't think that Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario should be compared to separate custom movesets.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So we can objectively determine that sheik is more forgiving of mistakes than rob might be. That doesn't mean sheik is inherently better. Just that someone playing rob would have less of a chance of winning if both participants made an equal number of mistakes.

Saying sheik is better because you can make mistakes and still win is WAY off base

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Ay yo smashboards fo real son

Da****?

 

[bc1910]

Otherwise I think he's pretty solid. PK Fire is a great safe tool in neutral, Z-Air has no lag and his moves hit really hard and he has 3 kill throws which is amazing.

Lucas has 3 kill throws AND a killing Hoo Hah. Then you look at the throws of characters like Jigglypuff and you're just like why.

It makes sense because Lucas' grabs are like ZSS tier, but I do find it funny how Lucas is hogging all the good throws.

 

[FullMoon]

Lucas has 3 kill throws AND a killing Hoo Hah. Then you look at the throws of characters like Jigglypuff and you're just like why.

It makes sense because Lucas' grabs are like ZSS tier, but I do find it funny how Lucas is hogging all the good throws.

Lucas's Hoo-Hah pretty much requires you to read the opponent's DI pretty well in order to hit, it's not reliable but yeah it's there.

Sakurai has said that the psychic characters are the ones that are supposed to get the best throws. That's why Ness's B-Throw is still super strong while others like Sonic and ROB's got nerfed.

With that philosophy in mind though, it's a bit weird that they would buff Charizard's Up-Throw to the point it is now. Other than Charizard the only character I can think of with a really good throw for killing right now is Toon Link (at least I think that one can kill really early if it gets you in the ledge)

So Lucas having such good throws is not very surprising to me, I was expecting it from the start. They probably gave him the best set of throws to compensate for the bad grab.